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GIRLS TALK
Adnane Ben.
Boston USA
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Morocco to improve women's rights
12:00:00 AM Friday Oct 10, 2003



From correspondents in Rabat
October 11, 2003

IN a historic effort to unify and modernise Moroccan society, King Mohammed VI announced today a landmark reform to grant vast new rights to women on matters such as divorce, marriage and rights within the family.

Acting in his role as Commander of Beliefs, the 40-year-old monarch said the move was designed to help heal a divide in society forming between women's groups and a powerful Islamic movement.

"We have not hesitated to intervene to spare our society from the risks of splitting apart over this question," the king said in an address to parliament.

The king has ultimate authority in Morocco and parliament is expected to approve the plan.

In the high-toned speech, Mohammed VI said the proposal was designed to "lift the iniquity weighing on women, protect children's rights and preserve the dignity of mankind".

"These reforms must not be seen as a victory of one camp over another but rather as advances for the benefit of all Moroccans," he said.

Among its stipulations, the reform would "place families under the joint responsibility of both spouses" - not just men, the king said.

Often referring to the Koran, Mohammed VI also said the plan would establish "draconian criteria" on polygamy to make it nearly impossible. The practice is rare in cities, but exists in some rural areas.

The changes were also designed to "bring a modern code of the family in perfect keeping with the spirit of our tolerant religion", he said.

Among other changes, the proposal is to raise the minimum marriage to 18 years old, from 15, and simplify divorce procedures for the benefit of women.

The king has brought social and human rights reforms to the impoverished North African country, where one out of two people is illiterate. The reform announced today was expected to become a hot topic of public debate.

Among the former French colonies in North Africa, Morocco has been considered a relative laggard on issues of women's rights.

For example, Tunisia, after its independence in 1956, enacted progressive laws ensuring the equality of women and men on matters such as divorce, education and rights to political representation.

The announcement of Morocco's reform came on the second day of a three-day trip by French President Jacques Chirac, who has repeatedly praised the king's efforts to modernise his country.

Early today, Chirac travelled to the northern city of Tangiers to visit the construction site of a giant port and industrial complex expected to boost the region's economy and create about 100,000 jobs.

The port project is expected to cost about $US1.3 billion ($1.89 billion) and build stronger links between Europe and a region troubled by contraband and illegal cannabis exportation.

Chirac's trip was his first to the North African nation since Mohammed VI took the throne in 1999 after the death of his father, Hassan II.

The Associated Press

The content of this page —graphics, text and other elements—is © Copyright 2007 prospective author, and Raioo, Inc., only when stated otherwise, and may not be reprinted or retransmitted in whole or in part without the expressed written consent of the publisher.



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9:12 pm    August 30, 2009

boukir el-mejjaouy message
241
hello
im new member id like to present my best wishes and ramadan kareem
i want to comment and talk about the little girl (11 years) zayeneb. the case of this (baby) is a maid whose employers( husband(judge) and wife) have tortured her and poured a boilled oil on her vegina, this case has stronglly affectted me and made a big question on on her future and whether she ll get her right. this must be the nowaday subject of me of morrocan humanrights associations and of you too. thx
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2:18 pm    May 30, 2008

Suzy Cameleon message
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Just wondering since this was written has there been any further reforms for women's rights. How's it going out there.
One Love.
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12:49 pm    February 16, 2008
hamid oumz
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intename of god the murceful in the most compasionete not god but allah and mohemed profect
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12:56 am    March 30, 2004
AKOUCHA
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WEELI, WEELI, BLADNA ZEENA, WAFENE ALROJALA??
HOKOUK ELNESSA DABATANSSA WATJEENA AL ALAA,
WELIWELI ....MATAYKOUCH HADE ELHADRA.
EWA KHALIHA ALALAH KALIHA, FI AMERICA OKANNAKOLE LAASSA, AS WE ARE USED TO LAASA HANTI EHNA CHARBE KBAR BELAASSA WE ELEWAKALHA LECHEWAHAD MANEBAADE HOWA YAWAKALHA MENE YATZAWAJE LALMRRA EWA KIJATKOM HOKOUKE LAMRAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA????
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5:11 pm    March 18, 2004
Sexi_Arabian187
237
sallam mal ekoum ladies and gentlemen's..
wallah im bored..well anyways all i wanted to say is i went to morocco casablanca and fes around november..and i enjoyed it alot..so much that im going to live their in 3 years from now..k well my only concern is they guys and the people their who like to talk khara lol..well basically guys would yell out RAZELLA and asking my number and whats my name and shit..i mean their's not a day that goes by when i went outside in morocco that a guy would honk at me or holla at me..even a 35 year old asked me to go inside his house :S..whoa..and my grandma called him a halouf and seri'tkhara..well..i just think pplz in marab should come tha fuck down lol..for real tho..and what really pissed me off is when they said i had a nice big phat ass and a taxi driver tapped it while we stopped to get manderiens..willi!..well i have 2 go now..i just wanted to express what i had to say..lol..well 1..peace..holla at yo gurl ***MOROCCO**FEZ**
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12:54 am    December 29, 2003
Ina
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235
Morocco to improve women's rights --> Viva MOROCCO
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6:05 pm    October 25, 2003
Sanita
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msg 229 by mb :MA.US I totally agree with you we need to question it and we have tools to answer some of the questions thank to science...
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5:55 pm    October 25, 2003
Sanita
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Guys...I didn't read all ur posts but I just want to share this with you...I found my high school Philosophy book so I started reading it and was shocked about the crap that they were teaching us ...they were brainwashing us and one of the chapter was titled "3AKL EL INSAN MA7DOUD BI 7OUDOUD EL CHAR3" meanin that our brain can't "process something if it's not mentioned in our religion....and it said that we shouldn't question what was given and just take it as it is.... to be continued
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11:06 am    October 20, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
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What you just said does not mention that any amendments to Islam that suit the environment 1500 years later would not be accepted and welcomed with rda.
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9:20 am    October 20, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
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The rules have been set 1423 years ago...(alyawma akmaltou lakoum dinakoum wa 2atmamtou 3alaikoum ni3mati wa raditou lakoumou l2islama dinan)
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11:25 pm    October 18, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
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Setting up rules is part of the education process.
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8:26 am    October 17, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
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MB,
I didn`t say take it as it is, Allah tells us to question every thing , he tells us to prove every thing instead of just saying it, ( ...hatou bourhanakoum in kountoum sadi9in) an the scholars said taffakourrou sa3ah khayroun men 3ibadati sanah, why i didn`t give you the explanations, is because some people say well where is it in the quran, if it is then it is true, without knowing the reasons, i never thought about why can`t we give him our last name, because it simply didn`t make a difference to me, i think it is better for the guy to know his origins, instead of lying to him, or maybe we die before we tell him... a lot of other reasons, so it didn`t make a big deal to me...,

Adnane ,
I know we can`t live without regulations, and before this change there was regulations, he is just changing them , and he gave a reason why to change them , that women will be better treated like that, but i think if we want to improve women`s rights we need to educate them and men as well.......

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10:42 pm    October 16, 2003
mb
229
Nego,
...because i`m talking to muslims, and i think you all believe in QURAN (hope so) because we alal know it is the Truth...
oui je suis muslim( enfin je le pense koike y a plein de gens ki me qualifierais d athee car j ose poser des questions..et demander le pkoi et le comment des choses...) mais il faut des fois te mettre a la place des autres nego...toi tu crois dur comme fer k on ne doit pas cogiter sur la religion ( surtt la notre bien entendu car on est superieur ...sarcasm again:))).. ton message ne passe pas et ne peux pas passer avec moi Nego...tu sais pkoi..car on parle deux langues differentes...toi tu me parles en coran moi plus avec mon coeur puis ma tete ...on va pas se comprendre...il ne faut pas supposer que tt le monde a la meme "culture" religieuse ke toi...pour moi il y a une explication rationelle a chake chose ...et la religion ben pour moi ca fait pas trop parti du rationel...donc tu peux pas me balancer des reponses comme ..en tant ke musulmans ki croient au coran tu dois croire a ce ki a ete dit et l accepter...en gros sois musulmans et tais toi ....not for me dude...
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10:11 pm    October 16, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
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Even if you educate kids, you still need rules and regulations.

Example:

Roads. Even if you educate drivers about driving properly in roads and pedestrians about where and when to walk, you still need to enforce the regulations even on the most educated person by painting appropriate lines on roads, use colors, by setting up set of lights (red, green and orange), by drawing pedestrian crossings, etc. These are reminders to those who know and those who don't. Those who don't know hopefully will ask the question: what is this line all about? what this red light all about?

Even the Quran, with all of its rules and regulations, is simply a reminder to those who know it and those who don't.

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9:46 pm    October 16, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
227
ego tu vas dire ke je te juge ....peut etre mais mon jugement n est pas mechant...oulah ...je dis ca de bon coeur ...c est bien de croire en qqch c est geant...mais bon faut ke ca ns absorbe trop non plus ..

MB,
Wellah , i didn`t think that you are judging me, you drew a smile on my face wallah,
You said the truth, on the explanation of why adoption was forbiden by isalm i just gave you the ayates that says that, and didn`t try to explain why God said that, you know why? because i`m talking to muslims, and i think you all believe in QURAN (hope so) because we alal know it is the Truth, so if any thing in it we should believe in it without questioning it, why ? because of that ayah that says ( makana limou2minin aw mou2minatin, ida 9ada allahou wa rassoulouhou amran an yakouna lahoumou alkhiratou fih) so as muslims we don`t have a choice if God or his prophet said something.
if i was speaking to non Muslims, i would never use Quran or ahadiths cause they don`t believe in that,

Adnane,
i understood very well what you meant by the proverb, i just wanted to tell you that i can use it in the other direction as well, if we educate our kids to prevent misery, we won`t have to make regulations and laws...

Moha,
I`m sure i`m older than, and pretty sure the rest here think the same,
because you haven`t said a good thing yet, you are just insulting who ever you want,
insulting is showing your ignorance.
Allah ychafeek

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8:01 pm    October 16, 2003
mb
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"C'est la 2e fausse alerte ? la bombe ? Casablanca (apr?s celle de l'?cole juive Narcisse Liven, le mois dernier). Mercredi vers 17h30, un employ? de la Grande Pharmacie de France a alert? la police: une mallette suspecte avait ?t? abandonn?e entre deux voitures rue Abdellah El Mediouni, pr?s de l'h?tel Lincoln, sur le boulevard Mohammed V.....
On l'entoura de sacs de sable afin d'affaiblir l'intensit? de l'explosion, si explosion il y avait. Une ?quipe d'experts (brigade d?minage) arrive de Rabat ? 18h45".... (l economiste)


lah lah ...ca leur a pris 1 h 15 pour venir desamorcer la bombe ... fouttez la paix a casa...on y a tjs vecu en paix ...on veut pas de la terreur des fous d allah....ou de ces jeunes delinkant ki n ont rien a faire de leurs journee a part troubler l ordre public...ou va le monde..

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7:59 pm    October 16, 2003
mb
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C'est la 2e fausse alerte ? la bombe ? Casablanca (apr?s celle de l'?cole juive Narcisse Liven, le mois dernier). Mercredi vers 17h30, un employ? de la Grande Pharmacie de France a alert? la police: une mallette suspecte avait ?t? abandonn?e entre deux voitures rue Abdellah El Mediouni, pr?s de l'h?tel Lincoln, sur le boulevard Mohammed V.....
On l'entoura de sacs de sable afin d'affaiblir l'intensit? de l'explosion, si explosion il y avait. Une ?quipe d'experts (brigade d?minage) arrive de Rabat ? 18h45.... (l economiste)
lah lah ...ca leur a pris 1 h 15 pour venir desamorcer la bombe ... fouttez la paix a casa...on y a tjs vecu en paix ...on veut pas de la terreur des fous d allah....ou de ces jeunes delinkant ki n ont rien a faire de leurs journee a part troubler l ordre public...ou va le monde..
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6:53 pm    October 16, 2003
A Muslima
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Nego you are doing great I wish if I had time to help you out in this discussion.
salam
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6:10 pm    October 16, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
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Nego, alwiqayatou khayroun mina al3ilaj. I meant that it's better to have laws and regulations like the King's initiative, to prevent misery and disorder in future famillies, rather than wait until that time and try to treat the familly, treat the wife, trat the children, the husband.. when it could be too late.
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5:46 pm    October 16, 2003
mb
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moha!!!
nego ne fais pas la morale la ....il a juste repondu a mes question c est moi ki lui ai demande de ramener des exemple coranike......it is unfair to call Nego islamist or fanatic....instead of using his brain he uses the coran to think....it is sad...he doesn t really try to analyse things ..he just cut it short by saying that god said or god ordered ( it is easier i guess we all love the easy way..)...it is sad because as Socrates said..." the life that is unexamined is not worth living." ....

Nego tu vas dire ke je te juge ....peut etre mais mon jugement n est pas mechant...oulah ...je dis ca de bon coeur ...c est bien de croire en qqch c est geant...mais bon faut ke ca ns absorbe trop non plus ..

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5:32 pm    October 16, 2003
Moha
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Nego
How old are you son? you sound young and naive.Sorry I don't have time to read all your posting 'cause they're very long and repetitive.
I'm just curious, can u please tell us where did get ur Islamic Education?
and what credentials you that make you qualified to preach to us??
seriousely you make me worry,because your islamic education is inadequate to say the least, you don't even know the fundamentals of islam.Your preaching style sound amateurish.
Little knoweledge is a dangerous thing. Peace
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5:14 pm    October 16, 2003
mb
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Nego...
Merci bcp d avoir pris le tps d ecrire tt ca ...although it still doesn t make sense to me ...i still don t see why it would hurt to have the same family name or inherit...you said what god told rassoul to do but not why...like most of the things anyway we always get told what to do but never get the reason....lmouhim cheers for ur time:))))
Ali et nego vs avez tt les 2 raison ( a certain degree...koike c est clair ke je penche plus vers ce ke dit ali....) and the answer is somewhere in the middle.....
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5:03 pm    October 16, 2003
mb
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noooooooooo....GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOX
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4:57 pm    October 16, 2003
Why?!@#$
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GOOooOOOOoo YankEEeees
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3:24 pm    October 16, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
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CAN TELL US WHO IS A BIG FAN OF POLYGAMY? AND UNDERAGE MARRIAGES?AND WHAT WAS THE QURAN HE GAVE TO SUPPORTE THAT? I`M SURE YOU WON`T FIND IT, NEXT TIME READ BEFORE POSTING...

Once said you will never be back,
welcome back,
I said it should be a common knowledge but didn`t say that it was enough, i said the judge or le3doul, cause he has to see the bride and the groom, should make that decision,
so instead of making it illegal ,period, he could have said and if there are cases when the couple see that they can get married before that they should go to the judge and he`ll decide.

To all those who supporte his idea, i do see your point , Yes lemgharba kamouniyine, and , and..., i understand i respect it, but it happend that i think that it wasn`t neccessary, because the reason why he did that isn`t good enough, educate them and they will do it them selves without being imposed on em by some one else.

as adnane said alwi9ayah khayroun mina al3ilaj,
So better educate people first ....

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3:15 pm    October 16, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
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wa ali

Mr. Negotiator, on the other hand, wants this age limit left open to vague interpretations. Which kind of supports my argument 100 postings ago: That Islamists in general, do not like clear written laws.
answer:
iwa chefti kikateghle6 deria, i`m not an Islamist !! you gotta stop believe what you read(moha),
AGAIN I DID NOT SAY LEAVE IT OPEN WHO EVER WANTS TO MARRY A 15 YEARS OLD CAN DOIT, I SAID YOU CANNOT GENERALIZE AND FORCE THIS LAW ON EVERY BODY, LET THE JUDGE DO THIS, IF HE SEES THAT THE 17 YEARS OLD IS NOT READY FOR MARRIAGE THEN HE THE ONE WHO SHOULD STOP IT, NOT SOMEBODY WHO DOESN`T KNOW THIS GIRL WHO IS SITTING IN HIS THRONE, COME ON GIVE WOMEN A BREAK,

3. This way, we will have a lot of educated people (especially girls) in order to advance Morocco (I care about the country).
wellah tahadi machi ghir katkharri bedda7k(aji be3da kayen chi islamist kaygoul katkharri?)
HOW IS IT THAT RAISING THE AGE OF MARRIAGE FROM 15 TO 18 GONNA HELP TO HAVE EDUCATED PEOPLE???
WHO EVER DOESN`T ALLOW HIS DAUGHTER TO GO TO SCHOOL BEFORE SHE IS 15 HE WILL NEVER ALLOW HER TO GO TO SCHOOL AFTER 15,
IF YOU WANT TO HAVE MORE EDUCATED PEOPLE , GIVE PEOPLE MONEY TO BUY BOOKS, BUILD ENOUGH SCHOOLS, AND DON`T MAKE IT HARD FOR PEOPLE TO GO TO SCHOOL,
YOU KNOW WHY THERE ARE MORE THAN 70% OUMEYYAH FELMAGHRIB, CAUSE THE GOV IS GOING BY THE PROVERB THAT SAYS JEWWA3 LKELB YTEB3EK, KHALIHOUM MA9ARYENCH BACH MAY3ARFOU WALOU,
ALORS IF EVERY ONE OF US EDUCATE HIS SONS AND DAUGHTERS WE WILL HAVE A BETTER SOCIETY ,

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3:06 pm    October 16, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
215
so then Zaynab and her father realized that it was an order from the prophet and Allah, so she married him, but even though she was still telling him that she is from an honorable family and he is not, until he was tired , and then he went to the prophet(PBUH) and told him that he wanted to divorce her, teh Prophet then he already knew that he is gonna divorce her and that he the prophet him self will marry her, because God told him before(alwa7y) that this is a 7ikmah, so when zayd asked him to divorce her teh Prophet(PBUH) told him keep your wife and then this aah was revealed to the prophet(PBUH) : ( wa2idd ta9oulou lilladi an3ama allahou 3alayhi wa an3amta 3alayhi imssik 3alaykka zawjaka wa tta99i allaha wa toukhfi fi nafssika ma allahou moubdihi wa takhcha annassa wallahou a7a99ou an takhchahou fallamma 9adda zaydoun minha wa6aran zawajnakaha likayla yakouna 3ala almou2minina 7arajoun fi azwaji ad3iya2ihim ida 9adaw minhunna wa6aran wakana amrou allahi maf3oulan) so the prophet knew that this is gonna happen, so he will be an example for the muslims after him or those during his era, that it is OK to marry your adoptif`s wife if he does or divorce her, IF YOU WANT TO,
conclusion,
Adoption means you take some one as your son or daughter and you give them your name and they`ll herite you and you`ll herite them, this adoption is 7aram, but you can raise kids have them as you sons or daughters without giving them your name and they won`t herite from you nore you do from them, they can call you father or mother, you can call them son or daughter, you should treat them as if they were your own kids,
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3:05 pm    October 16, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
214
Allah also said ( oud3ouhoum li2abba2ihim houa a9ssa6ou 3inda allahi fa2in lam ta3lamou aaba2ahoum faikhwanoukoum fiddin wa mawalikoum, walayssa 3alaykoum juna7oun feema akh6a2toum bihi walakin mata3ammadat 9oulouboukoum wakana allahou ghafouran ra7iman) so here Allah is ordering the muslims to call those kids that you want to(adopt) raise by their fathers name , and if you don`t know their fathers you should treat them as your brothers in islam, and you can call them as what you think it is theirs, if you call them by a name that is not their name God won`t consider that a sin, BUT if you know their names and you call them other names intentionally then you will be judged for that.
Zaynab bint ja7ch was the cousin of the Prophet(PBUH) and she was one of the prettiest women from quraich and one of their wealthiests, so The Prophet wanted to marry her to his (doptif) Son, but her parents refused they said he was a slave and she is from an honorable family and that can`t happen as it was the tradition in jahilia, an honorable woman to an honorable man, and a slave to a slave and so on, so the Prophet went to her and her father and told them that this an Order from God , because in Islam there are no differences between people, every body is the same, ( Inna akramakoum 3inda allahi at9akoum) and (wamakana li mou2minin wala mou2minatin, ida 9ada allahou wa rassoulouhou amran an yakouna lahoum alkhiratou min amrihim. waman ya3ssa allaha warassoulahou fa9ad dalla dallalan moubinan)
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3:04 pm    October 16, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
213
MB,
rah finmma kanjji njawbek 3la l`adoption kanel99a chi ass2ila we7din akhriine, donc kanjaweb 3lihoum,
Lmouhim,
In the jahilia, people used to adopt others and they give them their names and they herite them.
Zayd bnou 7aritah, was a slave in jahilia, and he converted to Islam and The Prophet(PBUH) adopted him and freed him, and he told People that he adopted him and that he is his son ( ibni yaritouni wa aritouh) , after that zayd`s father and Uncle came looking for him, so they asked zayd if he wants to go with his father or to stay with the Prophet(PBUH) he choosed to stay with the Prophet(PBUH) , and then alwa7y came on the prophet (PBUH) that adoption is forbidden, ( maja3ala allahou lirajoulin min 9albayni fi jawfihi wama ja3ala azwajakoum allatti toudahirouna minhunna oummahatikoum wama ja3ala ad3iya2akoum abna2akoum dalikoum 9awloukoum bi2afwahikoum wallahou ya9oulou al7a99a wahoua yahdi assabil) so Allah Cancelled the habit of adoption and then Zayd took back his original Name, cause before this ayah they were calling him zayd ibn mohammed, BUT HE STAYED WITH THE PROPHET, so ADOPTION IS 7ARAM ONLY IF YOU CUT THE BOY FROM HIS ORIGINS AND YOU DON`T TELL HIM WHO HIS PARENTS ARE, AND HIS NAME AND ALL THE OTHER STUFF, AND HE CANNOT HERITE YOU, BUT YOU CAN LEAVE A WASSEYYAH FOR HIM, AND HE CAN LEAVE A WASSEYAH FOR YOU IF DIES BEFORE YOU.
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2:47 pm    October 16, 2003
Malik
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Adnan The WebMaster, time to start another topic, I think we heard everyone's case,you got one guy who's a big fan of polygamy and underage marriage of children and he shamelessly use the Qu'ran and the hadith to support his argument.
I just think the discussion has reached a dead-end. I think you should ban anybody who claim to speak in the name of Islam in this forum (just kidding),I'm all for freedom of speech. But theses people are simply not qualified to talk about Islam in the current context (I mean the 21 century).The use and abuse of religion by the internet charlatans is a major problem theses days.
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1:29 pm    October 16, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
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Welcome back
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1:26 pm    October 16, 2003
Once said I d never be back
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Premis: Li iddih fel ma machi b7al li iddih fel 3afia.

- Can a CHILD be responsible enough to make responsible life-effecting decisions?
- What is the age range for childhood?
- Is childhood over when pubrity hits? If so, is childhood phase mainly physical?
- Are spiritual and mind growth also subject of growth in a child?
- Are you considered a Man as soon as you start producing sperm, or as soon as you become Independent (on all aspects)?

Nego and Ali you both make good points but in two different context, and that is hy you cannot reach a common ground. Yes Nego, it should be common knowledge and in every man's mind to never think about committing a child, young, little girls, to be Responsible of a family. Don't you think that it should be common knowledge for everyone to not do anything wrong...wait a minute...that's when we introduce the LAW, which can enforce these common knowledge on everyone. It is sort of a contract involving the entire society to abide by it.
I truly see your point Nego, and I Hope you see mine.

With all honesty Nego, would you let your own daughter get married at 15 or younger than 18 years old?

Take it from here, and please deliver the message concisely and to the point to enhance the level of this discussion ;)

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1:13 pm    October 16, 2003
Casawi79
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see u didn't like it when i mentioned your parents, well how if i tell u that there is many ppl that have family members that surf this site and they really don't need to hear what u have to say so please watch it and respect your self so others can respect you.....
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1:13 pm    October 16, 2003
Ali
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Dear Adnane:

Thanks for the inputs. I agree with what wrote. I like clear and written laws!

Jazzakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

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1:11 pm    October 16, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
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And here are some passages thought were strong, and which are being implemented by the King as he promised.

"Morocco will remain faithful to its international commitments and will continue, under my leadership, to strive with faith, confidence and determination to make our project for a modern, democratic society, a tangible reality. They will find me, as their first servant, in the front line, repelling anyone who attempts to pull the country backward. They will find me in the forefront, spearheading, with God's help, their march towards progress and their struggle to win the battle that really counts, and that we are waging together against underdevelopment, ignorance, insulation and ostracism.


We will win this battle thanks to our comprehensive, integrated and multi-dimensional strategy. In its political, institutional and security-related aspects, this strategy seeks to introduce more rigour and efficiency, in a democratic environment, under the rule of law. In the economic and social fields, its aim is to stimulate free enterprise initiatives, release energies and channel them towards the objectives of development and solidarity. As for the religious, educational, cultural and media aspects, the strategy seeks to provide the citizen with education and training and inculcate in him the virtues of openness, modernity, rational thinking, conscientiousness, righteousness, moderation and tolerance. We firmly intend to carry on with the necessary policies to implement this strategy. Our ultimate objective, with God's help, is to enhance the dignity of the citizen, to safeguard the nation and to preserve its international standing."

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1:09 pm    October 16, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
206
Besides, please allow me to remind you of a good speech King Mohammed 6 addressed the nation with after May 16, 2003. I personnaly thought it was a speech to remember, and many points in it should invite every Moroccan to ponder himself and herself. You may be rebelious of the kingdom, of the system, of the people, but we should always spot any agreement we have with our leaders and make that a foundation. I think the King's speech represented a good foundation. Here is the Full Text.
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1:04 pm    October 16, 2003
Ali
205
201
Dear Adnane:

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/mo.html#People

Here is an entry from the world fact book about girls and education in Morocco:
Literacy:
definition: age 15 and over can read and write.
total population: 51.7%
male: 64.1%
female: 39.4% (2003 est.)

My point is very simple, as a Moroccan citizen:

1. I want a law in Morocco that states that both boys and girls are not allowed to marry until the age of 18.

2. The reason why 18 is a good age, is because this will allow the girls and the boys to reach at list the BAC (High School diploma).

3. This way, we will have a lot of educated people (especially girls) in order to advance Morocco (I care about the country).

4. The reason why I want an 18 year limit law written and enforced, is because, just like most Moroccans, I have seen with my own eyes instances where a 17 year old girl was married to a 51 year old man (financially healthy DUDE), the girl had a baby girl by 18.5 years, by 19.5 she was divorced. And she is back to her parents home. No education. No job. Her baby girl is now about 10. The mother is not married. I sense that the marriage/divorce cycle is going to be repeated?

Mr. Negotiator, on the other hand, wants this age limit left open to vague interpretations. Which kind of supports my argument 100 postings ago: That Islamists in general, do not like clear written laws.

Thanks Adnane for being a bridge builder!

Jazzakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

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1:00 pm    October 16, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
204
203
Large societies need detailed regulations:
One has to recognize the fact that society of today differs from old societies in numbers. To organize more people you need to regulate things in detail otherwise you lose order and people abuse and think they can get away with it. Putting these laws in paper and making big news of it in TV and other mediums to reach larger numbers is a must in the 21st century is a sign of good leadership. Enforcing it is a management issue. Moudawana, constitution, law etc, are all complements of a greater individual effort to improve. No law on earth can improve you if you don't make the effort. Even God's laws cannot improve you if you don't make the effort.

Finally, I like this proverb and I think it applies here. The proverb goes like:

Alwiqayatou khayroun mina al3ilaj.

Prevention is better than treatment.

Thank you.

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12:59 pm    October 16, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
203
On marriage:
Prophet said: mani ssta3a minkoumou alba'ata falyatazawaj. I understand this saying as follows: whoever among you believes he or she is responsible enough to handle marriage, provide for the partner, the kids, and the expectations of familly, then you may get married. Someone might think Prophet Mohammed was addressing only men, but, I believe he was also addressing women. If a woman believes she is ready potentially and mentally, and not only physically, to get married, then so be it - and follow the legal and dignifying procedures in doing so: talk to your familly about it, your caring people, and do the administrative stuff etc. The most important thing is that the husband takes care of the wife, and the wife takes care of the husband. God says: "Antoum libassoun lahounna, wahounna libassoun lakoum". When prophet Mohammed asked the hands of his closest friends's dauhter (forgot the names), his friend told him, I ask of only one thing from you Prophet Mohammed, and that thing is to promise me to take good care of her.

From 15 to 18:
Raising the age of marriage to 18 from 15 is BETTER as far as I am concerned since in our times most people are not ready for "Ba'a" at 15, 16, 17, 18.. sometimes even in their twenties. Also, especially if there is a proven threat that people would abuse the principles of marriage. This threat would come from educated and uneducated people when they are pleasure-centered people, possession-centered people, pedophiles, etc.

[ next: Large societies need detailed regulations]

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12:22 pm    October 16, 2003
Ali
202
200
Dear Negotiator:

This is your question:

I quote:

"If you wanna answer this question it will be great:
-A 17 Year old Girl met this guys who is 24 or 25, he lives overseas, he wanted to marry her and take her with him, he loves her and wants her beside him and he will take care of her studies and everything,
do you think the king or any body elese has to the right to tell her NO?"

Here is my answer:

If the law in Morocco is:
"No marriage before the age of 18". Then this girl MUST wait until 18 before she is allowed to marry this person. End of story

Jazzakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

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11:59 am    October 16, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
201
Ali, I think you and Negotiator have to first agree on a foundation so you may understand each other better.

How about this for a foundation: girls, 15+, who are married, were they forced into it? are they happy? are

they content with their fate? are they protected? are they encouraged by their husbands to get educated,

learn, develop etc? are their famillies super happy? You may not answer these questions objectively because

you don't have results of an authorative study done in Morocco. But you can almost start to feel the heat.

Once you two find agreements on personal answers to these questions and other questions you have, then you

are better off in this discussion. I notice 2 things:

1. Ali keeps telling Negotiator that girls who marry at 15 are abused.

2. Negotiator keeps telling Ali they are not.

I may be wrong in my observations and my proposals, but I'm a third eye and I could see you two differently

than how you see each other.

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11:50 am    October 16, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
200
ALI,
C`est pas le changement de la modouana qui permettra de bien traiter les femmes,c`est l`education qui doit faire ce travail,et tant qu il y a des gens mal ou non eduques,les femmes seront mal traites (les hommes aussi).

c est pour cela que je considere ces changement comme la poudre au yeux.
On a bien modifie la prodcedure d obtention du permis de conduire,malgre cela il y a toujours des morts sur les routes marocaines(vaut mieux parler de geurre).

"that is 7ikmat allah in this universe, if he left something open it is so we can work on it and make it as it suites us , and not limit it, "

Does not this mean that we need to regulate the marriage of young girls in order to prevent abuse and protect the girls?
*we do need to stop abuses of this kind and that is why we have 3douls(judges) they are the one who should make that judgment, at least they can treat each case with it`s circumstances, and not say no to every 17 years old girl who wants to marry,

If you wanna answer this question it will be great:
-A 17 Year old Girl met this guys who is 24 or 25, he lives overseas, he wanted to marry her and take her with him, he loves her and wants her beside him and he will take care of her studies and everything,
do you think the king or any body elese has to the right to tell her NO?

MOHA,
Allah ychafeek, goul ameen

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10:42 am    October 16, 2003
Ali
199
196
Dear Negotiator:

1. Based on all of your answers so far, you do not want to regulate marriage age for girls.

2. You just want to let the issue open, even though we are seeing a clear abuse of this kind of marriage especially by uneducated people.

I quote you:

"that is 7ikmat allah in this universe, if he left something open it is so we can work on it and make it as it suites us , and not limit it, "

Does not this mean that we need to regulate the marriage of young girls in order to prevent abuse and protect the girls?

Not regulating something is like living in the jungle. Survival of the fittest. If we allow our girls to marry between 10 to 15, I think that the pedophiles (those who prey on young people) will find Morocco a heaven for their activities.

If you were in charge of Morocco, let's say "King Negotiator", what kind of age limit law will you propose and how will you enforce it, so that ALL Moroccans abide by it? This way, we can at least control any abuse that comes from this.

Jazzakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

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10:16 am    October 16, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
198
193
Aweddi a Ali :) dakhaltni f some opposition. Just exclude me from "we" in the context of some "opposition". I prefer to be in "we" in the context of "harmony". I kindly invite you to keep expressing your own opinions like you've been doing since the beginning.
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10:14 am    October 16, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
197
195
MB,
I said that because oasienne said that moroccan men are not smart...,
and i said if one woman is not smart it doesn`t mean that all women are not, and same for men...
don`t get it wrong, i believe that there are very very very smart women in morocco.....
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10:11 am    October 16, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
196
a contradiction in your postings: WHERE?


1. You do not want any law to set a limit on the age of marriage for a girl, YES
2. There is no Koran nor Hadeeth setting a limit before a girl can marry, YES,
3. You tell us that puberty is when a girl can marry (Is there a Koran/Hadeeth for this?) NO
4. We tell you that a 10 or 12 year old can and is able to reach puberty (she is in 3rd grade by now),
*what i meant by that is when a Girl reaches puberty at the age of 10 she might be ready to marry at the age of 15, not neccesseraly that she can get married as soon as she becomes active, for a girl who doesn`t reach puberty until 14, she might get ready for marriage when she is 19 or more, and that is 7ikmat allah in this universe, if he left something open it is so we can work on it and make it as it suites us , and not limit it,
5. This means that a 40 year old man (hypothetical situation), can marry this 10 or 12 year old girl. if she is mature enough and that`s what she wants , why not, but i think it is rediculous, to do that 10-12 is a kid , so without making it illegal , it should be comon
6. I know that you made it clear that you do not want a girl to marry this young. HOW do you prevent item 5 from happening.
* how the heck do you want me to answer by a yes or no to this question, wazeyyar asa7bi, the answer is To educate her Mother and Father and put her in school,if her parents can`t , the GOV should be responsible for doing so.


Do you support marriage for a 10 year old who reaches puberty to a 40 year old man? YES or NO? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

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9:57 am    October 16, 2003
mb
195
Nego...
by the way thank u for saying the moroccan women are not smart.....it is very nice of you....u have no right to make that kind of judgment ....si on a pas nos droit c est k on est opprime par le dominant ki est la male....peace..
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9:52 am    October 16, 2003
Moha
194
Casawi,fist of all you're not parents,so I don't owe you anything.secondly I have zero tolerance for people who are intolerant islamo-fascists
Outkast,what freedom you talking about,in Islam there's no freedom.In muslim country you can't choose your religion, apostacy is punishable by death.
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9:47 am    October 16, 2003
Ali
193
191
Dear Negotiator:

We are still waiting for an answer to posting #189:

This is the question that the opposition in this forum want you to answer :

Do you support marriage for a 10 year old who reaches puberty to a 40 year old man? YES or NO?

Please do not provide anymore explanations after you answer with yes or no? We will ask you later to justify your answer.

Thanks!

Jazzakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

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9:43 am    October 16, 2003
mb
192
Nego,
we are not talking about forcing a girl to wait until the age of 18 to get married...he never said that in his speech...she could get an parental authorization...(like in the U.S)
i liked what you said about we should make the school free...i also think you are right when u said that we abviously all come from big cities in morocco( or at least most of us do) and we don treally know what s going on in the villages....even if the school is free ..that uneducated father will still marry his daughter....you know why because he does not believe in education....he believes that the woman ' s place is in a kitchen ...in her house serving her husband...that is why we have to make the legal age 18...to protect that girl.....most of the girls that marry young don t do it because they want to but they have to ( again here sorry , don t ask me where i got those statistics...)...we have to protect those girls and boys (lagal age for both ... don t forget that)from their own environment.....lmouhim ....and marrying an under age girl c est de LA PEDOPHILIE YA 3IBAD LAH...
bon gotta go dude ...still waiting for the adoption thing.....????:)
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9:31 am    October 16, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
191
Casawoui79,
ana i wouldn`t marry i girl if she is not 20 or 21, surtout felmaghrib, aww kaynine chi 25 katel9ahoum mazal sghirat fe39alhoum, BUT that is only me, that`s why i don`t say we should make it illegal to marry before 22, it is only my opinion,
cause i have my circumstances and others have theirs, AGAIN WHY WOULD I PREVENT MY DAUGHTER FROM GETTING MARRIED AT THE AGE OF 17, I WOULD TRY MY BEST TO CONVINCE HER NOT TO DO IT, BUT CAN`T FORCE HER TO LISTEN TO ME, WHICH OTHERS HERE SUPPORTE THEY WANT TO FORCE THEIR DAUGHTERS TO WAIT UNTIL THEY ARE 18, WECHKOUN DABA LLI RADICAL ANA WELLA HOUMA>?? CHKOUN LLI BAGHI LKHIR LELBENT ANA WELLA HOUMA,
TEH PROPHET(PBUH) SAID YASSIROU WALATOU3ASSIROU, NACHIROU WALA TOUNAFFIROU) HERE I SEE OUR KING KAY3ASSERHA 3LA LEBNAT MSSAKEN.
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8:56 am    October 16, 2003
Casawi79
190
da7aktini a NEGO
ajji why 18 why not 22 or 23 'til the gal actualy finishes college and get some real good education.
so it doesn't really matter 15, 18 or 23 it is all about the gal if she is wants/ready to get married and that's when the parent's help comes in to play
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8:47 am    October 16, 2003
Ali
189
186
Dear Negotiator:

Some people in this forum, including me, are very confused about your way of thinking and there seems to be a contradiction in your postings:

Is this what you are saying:

1. You do not want any law to set a limit on the age of marriage for a girl

2. There is no Koran nor Hadeeth setting a limit before a girl can marry

3. You tell us that puberty is when a girl can marry (Is there a Koran/Hadeeth for this?)

4. We tell you that a 10 or 12 year old can and is able to reach puberty (she is in 3rd grade by now)

5. This means that a 40 year old man (hypothetical situation), can marry this 10 or 12 year old girl.

6. I know that you made it clear that you do not want a girl to marry this young. HOW do you prevent item 5 from happening.

Please be clear and try to write in English or French, it seems that typing in darrejaa is hard to read and understand (thanks!)

This is the question that the opposition in this forum want you to answer :

Do you support marriage for a 10 year old who reaches puberty to a 40 year old man? YES or NO?

Please do not provide anymore explanations after you answer with yes or no? We will ask you later to justify your answer.

Thanks!

Jazzakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

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8:39 am    October 16, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
188
Suite:
There are families that cannot afford to send their kids to school, because they don`t have the money, not because they want them to get married, of course in the big cities we don`t see that, but if yo go to villages you`ll see that most people there are uneducated because they can`t afford it, and then their daughters and sons, so if this family can`t afford to send their daughter to school, they have to keep taking care of her until she gets married, if she is mature enough to get married at the age of 16, under this law she can`t , she will have to stay dependant on her father for 2 more years, other wise she could have married and at least her father won`t have to worry about her...,
there are two many details to this....,
that`s why i think we should make it harder for girls to marry at that age, not by making it illegal, and let them suffer, BUT by providing them by what to do so they`ll be busy, just like school, so why can`t the king decide that school should be free , i`m talking about books as well, or at least for those who can`t afford it.....,
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8:39 am    October 16, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
187
Why here in america a Girl can get married if she is 16, she only needs the permission of her parents, that`s it, i think that is better than to force them to wait until 18,
I still think it is unfair for the King to make this decision by him self, it might be good for the cities population but did he ever live in a village? does he know their life? their sufferings? shouldn`t he have them vote for that , instead of making a decision for every body? kangoulou lli yeddih fel3afya machi b7al lli yeddih felmma, so he made a decision upon what he thinks is right,
and of course he knows about imelchil, where men take their daughters to the 7abb lemlouk festival wella man3ref chnou dak le3jjeb, and men choose from there, their future wives, why doesn`t he stop this suffering, wach douk lebnat wellaw 7walla, dihoum lessou9 bach yetjewjou, why doesn`t he build schools there, so those girls can go to school, instead of souk, why, why, why, why, you don`t change things liek this, you need to look at the origin of the matter, it isn`t the age of marriage that made most of women illeterates, it is lack of planning things, 7naya lemgharba dima melli kanebghiw nssawbou chi 7ajja kandepaniw , makanssawbouch dakechi meziane, we cheat in every thing, he could have done some other things that will make it hard for girls to marry before they reach 18, give them what to do.
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8:08 am    October 16, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
186

2. The only issue that the "opposition" in this forum does not like is the fact that you support the marriage of 10 year old girl if she has reached puberty.
*CAN YOU TELL ME WHERE I SAID TAHT I SUPPORTE THE MARRIEG OF 10 YEAR OLD GIRL IF SHE REACHED PUBERTY?
IF YOU CAN`T FIND IT AND YOU WON`T , I`LL ANSWER YOU, NO ASIDI I DO NOT SUPPORTE THAT,
3. Can you please give us a Koran verse or a Hadeeth that clearly states item #2, AS SOMEBUDDY SAID BEFORE , ALLAH DIDN`T STATE A CERTAIN AGE FOR EITHER MEN OR WOMEN TO MARRY, WHY SHOULD WE?

a. Don't you think that this is the 21st century and we need to let this 10 year old finish school. How do we deal with ensuring that she gets an education, math, history, politics, French, etc...? I DO AGREE GIRLS AND WOMEN SHOULD FINISH THEIR SCHOOL, OR AT LEAST GET A HIGH SCHOOL DIPLOMA, AND EVEN ISLAM ENCOURAGES MEN IF THEY HAVE WIVES THAT ARE NOT EDUCATED TO EDUCATE THEM , SO IF YOU MARRY A 15 GIRL MEN LE3ROUBIA, YOU SHOULD EITHER TAKE HER BACK TO SCHOOL, OR LET HER FINISH HER SCHOOL IF SHE IS IN SCHOOL ALREADY.


c. We know that this 10 year old has reached puberty. This means that her biological clock is ticking and her body is "ready" for babies. Do you think that this girl's mental and intellectual capability is ready to deal with a 40 year old husband, a house, and the demands of modern times? AJI BE3DA CHKOUN GAL 40 YEAR OLD MAN??? ANYWAYS I DON`T THINK THAT SHE IS READY TO DEAL WITH A 16 YEAR OLD BOY 3ESSAK WA7ED 9ADD BBAHHA,

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7:56 am    October 16, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
185
Oasienne,
? 13 ans ona mieux ? faire que de se donner ? un vieux satyre pour lui pondre des gosses!, who said that???
Answer:
malki deghiya sstantejtti hadechi,, aww malek neyttek na9ssa, see the way you think, you always attack people, who said give your self to an old man?? i just see that it is unjust to force girls to wait until 18....
They want some smart population over there, and morrocan women are smart, If Moroccan women were smart they wouldn`t still be fighting for basic rights...., and yes you are right men are not smart in morocco , but in canada yes they are, by the way do you know what smart means?? 7outta katkhannez chwari, yla one woman is dump it doesn`t mean all women are, yla one man is dump you know the rest....,

You guys should stop twisting what i say,

IF I SAID I DON`T LIKE THE LAW THAT PREVENTS 15 YEARS OLD GIRLS FROM GETTING MARRIED ,IT DOESN`T MEAN THAT I WANT THEM TO GET MARRIED TO AN OLD MAN AND DON`T FINISH THEIR SCHOOL, SO THEY CAN GIVE HIM BABIES, AND SATISFY HIS ANIMAL NEEDS,
WAF9ASSTOUNI , KOULLA CHOUIA YJI CHI WA7ED WELLA CHI WE7DDA YGOUL CHI 7AJA MAKAYNACH...

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7:53 am    October 16, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
184
MB said, l age l egal doit etre 18 ans, 3lach WHY, PKOI? porque? PATCHIMO? limaza?

Wattoumma malkoum , dima zaglinha, aww, I said when a Girl reaches puberty she becomes a woman, BUT I DID NOT SAY that she should get married then, our grandmothers married when they were 12-13-14-15, and they were fine, even better than us, these days yes there are girl who reach puberty at the age of 12 but they are not ready to get married, before girls used to marry when they are still young, nowadays we don`t see that, because time changes, walakine 3LACH 7NAYA RADI NJIW WENFERDOU 3LA LBENT BACH MATJEWEJCH 7ETTA DDIR 18 ANS??? you seem to defend women but you are putting cuffs in their hands , warebbi khla9houm free, he didn`t say women shouldn`t get married until they are 18, AS i said before, i wouldn`t want my daughter to marry when she is even 18 cause i think she is still young for that, BUT I WOULDN`T OBLIGE HER TO DO THAT, WOULD RATHER THAT SHE WOULD HAVE THE CHOICE,

MB,you should never assume, cause when assumption is wrong it becomes a judgment, and you judged me of thinking that women are machines( a3oudou billah) stop putting words in my mouth...

rak tu devrais revoir ta vision de la
femme...,
NON MERCI, manach 7mma9 benti ddir 17 3andha bac, bghat thewej bchi wa7ed bach temchi m3ah finhoua, wetkemmel 9rayetha, ngoulha an NON khassek ddiri 18 ans, makatbanlkoumch hadi fchi chkel?


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7:39 am    October 16, 2003
Ali
183
182
Dear OutKast:

We really want to hear your point of view.

The topic now is: young girls and marriage. The questions are:

1. What is the acceptable marriage age for a girl?

2. Is puberty the threshold for when a girl can marry?

3. How do we make sure that a girl gets at least a BAC education?

4. How do prevent BAD "islamists" and BAD people from taking advantage of 10 year olds who reached puberty?

5. Is a 10 year old who reached puberty ready for responsibilities?

6. Is Islam protecting these innocent girls?

7. Does Islam care about educating these girls and HOW?

8. Think in terms of the realities of the year 2003

I hope this helps!

Jump in! what do think?

Jazzakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

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7:23 am    October 16, 2003
Outkast
182
181
Ali, I would write my point of view if I only know that It would be taking into consideration and not twisted like Negotiator's opinions are. I do respect your points of view, but also I have my own views on such matters, I personnally don't wanna share them cos after all they are mine, and when I feel that there is a ground for a great discussion then I will be the first one to participate. What we need before we discuss certain things is respect each other, and I don't wanna say something and end up being insulted by Mr Moha for no reason. Our freedom ends when other's freedom starts.
Peace Out. Lah yehdina 3la nfousena, amine.
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6:55 am    October 16, 2003
Ali
181
178
Dear Outkast:

1. I have not seen your thoughts and ideas on this subject. It's clear that you support Negotiator. Can you join the discussion with your own inputs. We need different points of view.

2. Moha, keep cool. I know how you feel about the ideas presented by Negotiator and Co. Use logic, it's a powerfull tool.

3. To all participants, this is a fruitfull discussion. It shows that Morocco has a long way to go for women to reach their full potential. It also shows that if Morocco is ruled under a "Shariaa" style, these are the kind of problems that we will face. On the internet, we can at least express ourselves without physical harm. Saudia is ruled by "Shariaa", if you dare to say simple things, like this forum's topic. You will be dead (Kafir).

4. We are only trying to understand how different people of the same heritage (Morocco) think about different issues.

5. Let's continue this debate in peace

Jazzakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

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6:43 am    October 16, 2003
Casawi79
180
177
Moha
do u call ur parents names when u discuss things with them, is that how they raised you!!!!
wakoun zwina alah itoub 3la khouya
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6:43 am    October 16, 2003
Ali
179
165
Dear Negotiator:

(To all participants in this forum, please keep cool. There are always two sides to every story)

1. Based on your answers so far, you seem to agree with 90% of the laws enacted by King M6, concerning improving the women rights in Morocco.

2. The only issue that the "opposition" in this forum does not like is the fact that you support the marriage of 10 year old girl if she has reached puberty.

3. Can you please give us a Koran verse or a Hadeeth that clearly states item #2

4. In the case where the Koran and/or Hadeeth says puberty is the threshold by which a girl can marry:

a. Don't you think that this is the 21st century and we need to let this 10 year old finish school. How do we deal with ensuring that she gets an education, math, history, politics, French, etc...?

b. We know that to get a BAC in Morocco, you will need to be about 18 year old. What do you think about this 10 year old girl finishing school first before marriage?

c. We know that this 10 year old has reached puberty. This means that her biological clock is ticking and her body is "ready" for babies. Do you think that this girl's mental and intellectual capability is ready to deal with a 40 year old husband, a house, and the demands of modern times?

5. What is your solution to educating girls in Morocco?

Jazzakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

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6:30 am    October 16, 2003
Outkast
178
177
Moha, Can't you understand that you need to respect pple. Do as Aretha Franklin said: R E S P E C T...If you do believe in freedom, so we are free to choose what we want and you are free to do what you like, right. So, don't make an ass out of yourself. I don't know why Adnane, don't delete your messages, or at least interfer in what you say. Man, get a life, and try to be at least nice to yourself.
Peace out.
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3:07 am    October 16, 2003
Moha
177
ayour
do u think I care what about what islamists monkeys think?/
their backward opinion simply dosen't count,why should I be tolerant of people who're not tolerant themeself. When you learn how to respect people with different faith,then I'll have respect for you
until then
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2:37 am    October 16, 2003
oasienne
176
According to what has been said the following actions will drive me right to hell and kofr:
1-i will adopt a girl
2-oh my god i will give her some education and teach her that she has the SAME RIGHTS(not thkherbik about equality, we women mean equal rights) as a boy
3-oh my god i will not marry her to a firther cousin at 15
4-oh no she will have the right to paractise sports with boys , to go to the swimming pool, and to read some philosophy books about other religions and cultures.She will of course be tought about islam bu iw ill not force to wear a hijab and i will tel her that her body is a great gift and there is nothing to be ashamed of.
5- at 18 i will say to her: you are a big responsible girl now, we still love and trust each other but now you can exercise your own decisions with our support and comprehension and help.
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2:10 am    October 16, 2003
zineb
175
Oasienne hehehe t as bien raison go girl, more power to us loll je pense que les femmes Marocaines feraient bien mieux de rester au Maroc et de se battre pour leur droits.. laisser la scene a des types comme negotiator ca arrangera rien il nous feront retourner mille ans en arriere ;)en plus de ca je parie que la moiti? des types qui pensent comme ca n utilisent que les qq neurones qui leur restent ... faudra bien que qq un se charge de les reveiller et de faire changer les mentalites au Maroc.. c est a nous les femmes de le faire je vois pas qui d autre le ferait a notre place. toute cette discution me rappelle une bonne blague celle du coq qui entre au poullailler avec un oeuf d autruche et qui dit a ses poules: C'est pas pour vous choquer ... mais vous voyez ce que la conccurence produit!!! hehehe ds ce cas je dirai que le coq (male marocain macho) ferait bien mieux de regarder ailleurs ce que les Hommes avec un grand H font de leurs femmes , ils les respectent, les aident, les encourage a se developper, s'instruire et c est pour cela que leur nations sont bien plus en avance que la notre. Je parle pas de tous les Marocains car heureusement il y a des exceptions. La femme est la force de l'homme sans elle l homme n est rien (l'inverse aussi:) .... Salam.
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2:00 am    October 16, 2003
oasienne
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173
NEgo is not an idiot.I know that guy from previous posts and that's what surprises me.
Still chocked about the puberty stuff...
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1:58 am    October 16, 2003
Ayur
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Moha
u're just insultin pple in that forum with no reason!! u gotta learn how to debate!!!

Adnane,
where are u?!!!! some posted msgs must be deleted, and some pple must be banned from that website

Nego,
I TOTALLY AGREE WITH U

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1:31 am    October 16, 2003
Moha
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NEGO is an islamist idiot and proud of it.He's is on thoses sexually frustrated "Ikhwanyins" who reguard women as necessary evils.Simply they're using religion to satisfy their strange sexual perversion.Anybody who want to have sex with 12 years girl is mentally sick, and I don't care what religion he follow.
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12:53 am    October 16, 2003
oasienne
171
NEGO: je suis choqu?e!!!!!!!!!!Puberty doe not mean that the woman is an adult!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.i remember this time i was still watching cartoons and playing with legos(hmm stil watching cartoons anyway).
De toute fa?on IL Y EN A MARRE que les hommes d?cident pour les femmes ce qu'il y a de mieux pour elle dans la vie!!!!!? 13 ans ona mieux ? faire que de se donner ? un vieux satyre pour lui pondre des gosses!
Marre marre .I propose to women to emigrate, i am gonna come back to morooco and put a big poster:girls canada encourage your emigration , if you are fed up live the country!LEt the morrocan marry 15 year old afghani girls, theu are for sure waiting for that!They want some smart population over there, and morrocan women are smart.
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12:53 am    October 16, 2003
oasienne
170
NEGO: je suis choqu?e!!!!!!!!!!Puberty doe not mean that the woman is an adult!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.i remember this time i was still watching cartoons and playing with legos(hmm stil watching cartoons anyway).
De toute fa?on IL Y EN A MARRE que les hommes d?cident pour les femmes ce qu'il y a de mieux pour elle dans la vie!!!!!? 13 ans ona mieux ? faire que de se donner ? un vieux satyre pour lui pondre des gosses!
Marre marre .I propose to women to emigrate, i am gonna come back to morooco and put a big poster:girls canada encourage your emigration , if you are fed up live the country!LEt the morrocan marry 15 year old afghani girls, theu are for sure waiting for that!They want some smart population over there, and morrocan women are smart.
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12:27 am    October 16, 2003
Moha
169
Everyone can become an Islamic scholar ,easy just memorise the 60 hizb of the Quran,then spend another 2 years sitting on a straw mat (hssira) until your ass start to hurt, listening to some backward cheikh who still think the earth is flat.No need to think,just follow our amazing cheikhs,they know everything.Oh yeah Oussama know best !!
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9:32 pm    October 15, 2003
mb
168
aji...one more thing ...u say a girl ila belghat she is not a child anymore....if she is not a child then she became a woman...humm!!! fort interessant...she is in your opinion a woman because she reached puberty and she can actually give birth and get pregnant.....are you saying in an indirect way...that girls are here just to make babies....that what makes a woman a woman is the fact that she can make babies...tu viens de reduire ( par deduction) le fait d etre une femme , en d autre terme un etre humain, a une machine a mettre au monde... je pense que c est ce ki te pousse a penser ca ....i really think it is the reason....
ewa ach ghada ngoulek a sidi....rak tu devrais revoir ta vision de la femme...
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9:23 pm    October 15, 2003
mb
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Nego,
tres interessant ta facon de voir imta childhood ends...tres interessant je tombe de haut.....pour moi...une fille de 10 li belghat est tjs une gosse....a 10 ans j etais encore tte insouciante..baka je jouais a cahe-cache ds la cours de l ecole, je ratais pas un episode de captain planet , jeu set et match, de sally et de loubna sari3a, ...et tu veux ke ce genre de fille soit responsable d une maison , d un mari et d une famile ( tu vas me dire y a des filles ki murissent plus vite que d autre, Bla Bla Bla....)....l age l egal doit etre 18 ans...et meme ke c est assez jeune ...tres jeune...a 18 ans on est encore adolescent...( until 19 d apres les psychologie books...don t blame me if it s wrong)...et oulaaaa vs savez ce ke la crise d adolescence fait ....on deteste tt ...notre famille, notre vie..on fait les pire conneries...elle peut vouloir se marier en croyant ke c est une issues de secours when in reality it s not...
lmouhim....fait de bo reves a sidi....je suis tres impatiente de savoir 3lach allah soubhanahou wa ta3ala 7erem l adoption....
feel like am gonna be impressed with ur answer....( now it is sarcasm:)))))

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9:04 pm    October 15, 2003
mb
166
what about if we don t know who their parents are ???? what do we call them ?
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9:03 pm    October 15, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
165
149
Ali,
I said give the woman every thing to manage, that was when they are married,
But in case of divorce, we should apply chari3a,
so if giving the whole money to the woman is unislamic, i see deviding it between them is western, so i would go by the islaamic way.

Melli lweld wella lbent kaybelghou, they are not childs any more, they are a man and a woman.

MOHA,
Hey buddy i`m here discussing , whatever the subject is, and i explain why i think the way i think, i don`t attack people, i opposse their ideas, but never called any body, a taliban boy, or a cristina aguilera girl, wella mane3ref chnou, lli bgha ydir chi 7aja ydira, yek7azz men 7day weydirha(^_^) .
so you don`t have to convince people , but you can argue, discuss....

MB and ALI,
feyya n3ass daba demain i will give you al lwhat you need,
it was first 7alal, and then it became 7aram after the prophet(PBUH) adopted zayd, and gave him his name.....
talredda wenkmell
besslam, douzzou bkhir

MB, rah ghir chaddfiik , kangoulik sarcasm....

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9:00 pm    October 15, 2003
mb
164
i think ...from the way i understood things...islamic law pushes us to consider an adopted child as an outsider...u know etre assis entre deux chaise et ne pas savoir de kel group on est....( en gros etre perdu)
the western law...tries to give a new life to the kid and a new start...in other words a chance to built a life....
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8:45 pm    October 15, 2003
Ali
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Dear Negotiator:

Concerning adoption: can you point us to some Koran verse or a verifiable and traceable Hadeeth that says adoption is HARAM.

The definition of adoption seems to be confusing. I know that Muslim foreigners do go to Morocco and adopt Moroccan kids.

Can you please define adoption so that we know the difference between Western style of adoption (legal adoption) and "Islamic adoption"?

Jazzakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

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8:37 pm    October 15, 2003
Ali
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Dear Negotiator:

1. Regarding item 5 and 7:

A signed paper is necessary because we need something in writing to prove to law enforcement agencies that the consent was obtained and verified. This way, if there?s a dispute in the future about the legality of this marriage, we have papers to prove it. His word against her is not admissible in a court of law.

2. Regarding item 10:

I agree with you that before the marriage, the court has to determine that the husband is financially healthy and has a good history of solid and stable income.

3. Regarding item 11:

I am talking about the fact that once the divorce is approved, the courts need to know if the couple has money saved, if the husband is hiding money somewhere else, if they have a house together, etc?. These are called assets during the marriage period. These assets must be divided between the husband and the wife through court supervision. It does not make sense to give all of these assets to the woman only. This is not fair to the man. He should not be thrown to the streets with no money, etc? (I think that will be too feminist and un-Islamic).

4. Regarding item 1:

You are saying that once the girl reaches puberty, she can marry. If this girl happens to be 10 years old, and she reaches puberty, she is allowed to marry. What is you definition of a Child?

Jazzakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

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8:33 pm    October 15, 2003
mb
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kif guelt ...i see your point ..i know what you think the way u do...but i still think the fact that adoption is 7aram is unfair... the kid has the right to be part of the family and this completely...not partialy speaking...i think he should get the same family name ...have part of the heritage ...be a part of the family....why making feel this poor kid that he is different...you know how kids think...!!!

LOVE HIS OWN KIDS MEN LA7MOU WDEMMOU MORE THAN OTHER KIDS.... ne prends pas ton cas pour une generalite.....if i decide to adopt some day a kid , he will be exactly the same as my kid ... l un est mon enfant de coeur (adoptif) et l autre biologike...c est peut etre de l idealisme...mais c est juste....je ne ferais jamais la difference entre eux....and now again i don t understand why god 7erem the adoption i just don t get the point????!!!! do u have the answer or is it again one of those thigs where u just have to obey???!!!!
Nego...again i really didn t mean to be sarcastic ....if i did then sorry...c etait pas intentione

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8:12 pm    October 15, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
160
Suite:
MB,
choufi hnaya saliti m3aya ma3raft mnin ncheddek,
about the adoption ...yes i think it is unfair....cause i see what you mean by 7aram ( i can not give my adopted kid my family name and he can t get anything if i die..except if i wanna give him something in the wassiya which represents the 1/3...correct me if i am wrong...i don t remember exactly )
OK,iwa malek hnaya hdarti meziane, that is exactly what Islam says ...., daba wach mtaf99a m3aya 7arama wella lla?? si oui, donc hanti 3rafti we9tach les islamists voted 3liha (^_;)

You can raise them, BUT YOU CAN`T ADOPT them , teh wording is different , adoption is legal in europe and america, but not in Islam, but you can raise them, treat them like your own kids, but they should keep their own last name, and they should know about their parents, and if when they grow up wants to go with them you should let them.

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8:10 pm    October 15, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
159
l adoption 7aram????? depuis kand....kand est ce k ils ont vote cette loi les islamiste?????
Answer:
ha7na rja3na l sarcasm 3awtani, First of all it is not the islamists who voted for this law, It is GOD who said that, you cannot raise a kid that is not yours and hi your name, and he cannot herite from you, and if he wants to marry one of your daughters he can do it , wazeyrri m3aya lmerra jayya wmateb9aych tne9zzi bla...,(^_^)
your own kids are not like others????? astaghfirou lah l3adim ....you make a difference 7ta f les kids ....those innocent kids....ewa baz a sidi!!!!
Answer:
wabziz ga3 machi ghir baz, of course i make difference , and i`m sure you do too, and every one else, it is our Nature, one LOVE HIS OWN KIDS MEN LA7MOU WDEMMOU MORE THAN OTHER KIDS, he can love others too, but our nature is that we love our own more. very simple.
u talk about sleeping and kids like if the only reason to marry is to have a f.... body and to make babies.....marriage is an institution a sidi....it is about love, respect, sharing things of life...bad or good....
Answer:
Again I said IF, i know marriage is not about F..ing and all that but I SAID IF A WOMAN OR A MAN wants to i mean it should ne ok, we are at the end human beings, we have needs,

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8:07 pm    October 15, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
158
5 and 7 , it is up to the wife or husband to see if it neccessary to sign a paper..., cause between wife and husband i don`t see why a paper is needed, unless they want to..
10- i don`t see why the man has to provide the court with a financial statment once he is married, because this should happen before amma if he is already married what`s the point??

11- I said instead of deviding the money between the man and the woman, the man should bring the money and give it to the woman, because she is the one who knows the house neccessities and else, and a couple shouldn`t devide the money, cause they are supposse to be one , not two, his money is her money, her money is HER money, in Islam the man MUST not take his wife`s money.

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7:51 pm    October 15, 2003
Ali
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155
Dear Negotiator:

Thanks for the promt answers.

I would like you to clarify your answers to items 5, 7, 10 and 11 (not necessary is a vague answer).

Jazzakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

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7:37 pm    October 15, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
156

Suite
7. The second wife must also give a signed consent to the husband.
*Not needed

8. A competent judge must act as a coordinator of this affair and make sure that both wives understand what they are about to do.
*Sure(le3doul)

9. The judge must make sure that the husband did not threaten, force, bribe, or did any other trick to get these women to say yes.
*Of course(le3doul)

10. Once married to two women, the husband must also report to the courts on his financial ability to have more than one wife and kids.
*Not neccessary

11. Once married, all the money that was made from the day of marriage to the day of divorce by both parties must be divided by TWO: half to the woman and half to the man.
*I say the money should go to women so they can manage the house.

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7:35 pm    October 15, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
155
1. A 15 year old girl should not be allowed to marry. She should be in school and wait until at least 18 before marriage
*NO, she should be free to marry when she wants to ( melli teblagh).

2. A 18 year old can legally marry the man that she wants and loves.
*Definetly
3. The Male/Female relatives of this 18 year old girl have no rights dictating to her when and who she can marry

*Absolutely

4. The first wife has the right to know if her husband wants to marry another woman before he does.
*YES
5. The first wife must give a signed consent to her husband before marrying other women.
*not needed

6. The second wife, has the right to know if the man she is going to marry is married and to whom.
*YES

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7:19 pm    October 15, 2003
Moha
154
Kamar, come on,even in the usa good girls are not supposed to be cursing like that.Maybe you just had a bad day or maybe you have your period. But please try to control your temper or should I say your bitching? I just can't believe that some moroccan girl can actually speak like this,what this ghetto langauge,ghetto fabulous cultue.
An by the way,let me remind u that "bitching" or "bitchery " is totally HARAM in Islam ,no execuse!
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6:51 pm    October 15, 2003
kamar
153
when did God made a certain age for marriage????

here in the US you can get married at 16 or17 with your PARENTS permission?

iSLAM IS fUCKED UP, YOU GUYS MADE WHAT EVER RULES YOU LIKE AND SAY THIS IS ISLAM.

MEN LET WOMEN LIVE THEIR LIVES WHAT'S YOUR FUCKING PROBLEM TO DECIDE FOR THEM WHAT'S GOOD AND WHAT'S BAD.

FUCK YOU GUYS.

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6:47 pm    October 15, 2003
kamar
152
you guys are fucked up big time,
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6:42 pm    October 15, 2003
Ali
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150
continued...

If I have added an item by mistake, please let me know. Also, if I misquoted you, please correct me (no harm intended).

I think that Moha, MB, adnane, FZ, and I are a little bit confused about your real standing on these items.

Please let us know with yes/no answers to the items you disagree with so that we may continue this debate fruitfully.

Also, can you please itemize the points we, Moha, MB, adnane, FZ, you and I agree on and which ones we disagree on.

This way we can actually zoom in on the differences between us.

Jazzakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

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6:40 pm    October 15, 2003
Ali
150
148
Dear Negotiator and Outkast :

Based on all of your posts so far, it seems that you agree with all of us to the following items:

1. A 15 year old girl should not be allowed to marry. She should be in school and wait until at least 18 before marriage

2. A 18 year old can legally marry the man that she wants and loves.

3. The Male/Female relatives of this 18 year old girl have no rights dictating to her when and who she can marry

4. The first wife has the right to know if her husband wants to marry another woman before he does.

5. The first wife must give a signed consent to her husband before marrying other women.

6. The second wife, has the right to know if the man she is going to marry is married and to whom.

7. The second wife must also give a signed consent to the husband.

8. A competent judge must act as a coordinator of this affair and make sure that both wives understand what they are about to do.

9. The judge must make sure that the husband did not threaten, force, bribe, or did any other trick to get these women to say yes.

10. Once married to two women, the husband must also report to the courts on his financial ability to have more than one wife and kids.

11. Once married, all the money that was made from the day of marriage to the day of divorce by both parties must be divided by TWO: half to the woman and half to the man.

continued...

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5:49 pm    October 15, 2003
Moha
149
Outkast,I'm giving u 2 thumbs down,because like the french say "tu parles pour rien dire".
And what's is your definition of respect?? You expect us listen to your islamits propaganda without challenging it?? I just asked if ur friend Nego know something we don't know.Why can't u answer a simple question? I don't think I'm being disrespectful. But I'm here to expose the crazy fanatics who want to impose their rigid inflexile version of islam on everybody.Sorry we don't take lessons from Taliban boys.
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4:42 pm    October 15, 2003
Outkast
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147
I gave him 2 thumbs up cos he respects other's opinions and he tries to make his point which for me seems right. Unlike you Brother moha, just your attitude and the way you try to make fun of everybody, even if you are right I wouldn't believe in what you say. Respect gives a good image about a person. Peace out
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4:35 pm    October 15, 2003
Moha
147
Outkast,wow u giving negociator 2 thumbs up for what? u must be kidding, believe me I'm not jalous,but I don't see why this guy deserve 2 thumbs up,did he invented anything for the humanity?/
or maybe you think he's a great thinker ,did he say anything we don't know??come on give me break,even a 12 year old kid can copy and paste soutat from the Coran or a few hadiths,what's the big deal?No wonders Islamic country are backward and underdeveloped And for negociator,next time please say something new when u post,because so far you're SO BOOOOOORING.
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4:30 pm    October 15, 2003
M.B
146
142
ewa khlaaaaasssss ...ca va de mieux en mieux.....l adoption 7aram????? depuis kand....kand est ce k ils ont vote cette loi les islamiste?????
your own kids are not like others????? astaghfirou lah l3adim ....you make a difference 7ta f les kids ....those innocent kids....ewa baz a sidi!!!!
u talk about sleeping and kids like if the only reason to marry is to have a f.... body and to make babies.....marriage is an institution a sidi....it is about love, respect, sharing things of life...bad or good....
about the adoption ...yes i think it is unfair....cause i see what you mean by 7aram ( i can not give my adopted kid my family name and he can t get anything if i die..except if i wanna give him something in the wassiya which represents the 1/3...correct me if i am wrong...i don t remember exactly )
but i think it is unfair.....because immagine those kids who have no one ...3tahoum lah f les orphelinats....they are sooo sweet and they deserve a chance to grow like everybody else....they deserve love 24 h a day...they have the right be happy...oh my god....just immagine sometimes i go crazy when i see my friends here with their families...it is sooo sad....when u turn around and u don t find anyone to hold ur hand when u need it....imagine those kids msaken .....they ve never known what "mama" means...and u say it is 7aram....achmen denb 3emlou f 7yathoum pour meriter ca....enfin bref c est mon point de vue....mais je comprends ce ke tu veux dire wakha je suis pas d accord...
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3:50 pm    October 15, 2003
Outkast
145
Mr Negotiator, I really do pity you brother. I am telling you, those pple are trying to make a fool of you by understanding your comments in twisted ways. wa si negotiator, kama ya9oul l matal: Katkhwi l ma fi ramla, ou tani: limen kat3awed zabourek a daoud..... I really do agree with most of what you say, but I wish they can see what you mean. 2 thumbs up Mr Negotiator.
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3:08 pm    October 15, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
144
wa moha rass lou7a, (ghir kaned7ak)
Rah when i said 12-13 it was an Observation aweldi, did you see in any of my posting supporting the idea of marrying a girl who is only 12-13??? i didn`t lower any marriage ages, i`m saying my opinion fa9a6 la ghayrr, you don`t like it, good for you,
at least it is not against our religion , so i wouldn`t mind, but regarding the idols( asnam) i wouldn`t be proud cause it is against my religion, so the example doesn`t fit in here...,

Regarding judaism and christianity,
I`m not a scholar, but i do read a lot about judaism and christianity to know how they think...
well you need to double check to see that even nowadays there are some christians that still marry more than 1 wife,
if you didn`t know that daoud and soulayman had multiple wives, well now you know, and even our Prophet(PBUH) married 11 wives, but that is a different case.

I

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2:48 pm    October 15, 2003
Moha
143
Negociator,wow you're amazing I'm really impressed with your raisonning skill, you're a scholar on judaism too.I didn't know that Daoud or Suluyman had multiple wives,what is the difference between having 9 wives or 4 wives anyway? and prophet Mohamed too has many wives,so.I didn't read the bible or the torah, but I know for a fact that christians and jews are not allowed to have more than 1 wife.
Now back to your strange way of thinking, I can't believe you just lowered the age of marriage from 15 to 13 or 12, maybe in your next post it will be 6. And if your grand mother got married at age 12 ,it dosen't mean it was the right thing to do. Let's say your father used to worship stones "asnams" then u became a muslim are u going to be proud of that? Honestly we have same stupid moroccan traditions,do we have to be proud of that too.When I was kid growing up in maroc I heart some quite respectable old women saying when they were young during colonial time ,picture of king Mohamed 5 used to appear every night on the moon so the french has no choice but to bring him back from Madagascare and that's how we got our independance. Am I supposed to believe this too ???
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2:47 pm    October 15, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
142
141
MB,
I SAID IF, awww
IF the woman loves kids so much and her husband can`t have kids, do you think it is Fair to deny her from marrying another man?? men rassek wjebdi, for My self i don`t think i will change my wife no matter what , If she can`t give birth or ill , i will stay with her, and will encourage her to get married if i`m to be ill or not to be able to have kids, every body thinks for him/her self.
Adoption is 7aram n Islam, so you can`t adopt....., don`t tell me again we should change that (^_^), plus your own kids are not like others.....

Do you think if you marry someone and you find out that you cannot sleep with him , because he has some illeness, that you will stay with him forever?? if you can bravo 3leek, meziane, but at least you shouldn`t be obliged to do that, you should have a choice, either to stay or leave,
for a man if he marries a woman and find out that he can`t sleep with her, do you think he wil stay with her?? without touching her? probably yes, but he might be getting that somewhere else, so Islam makes it legal for him to marry, instead of going to prostitutes, so machi 7ram 3leena yla had rajel bgha yetjewej merra oukhrra, ngoulou lih non, safi tjewejtti hadi mate9darch tbeddelha.

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2:01 pm    October 15, 2003
mb
141
139
Nego!!!!
if the woman is sick or the man is sick they can divorce...7ram 3lek....c est hyper mechant.....u know if you chose to live the rest of your life with a person you have to stay with that person even if she/he is sick or can t have babies....babies u can adopt anyway....dir khir en plus...le mariage c est sacre Nego.....the way u look at it is like changing shirts...od that one is old or the color is faded...am not gonna use it anymore....it is sad...
if your kid is sick are you gonna leave him tooo...??????? it s the same they are both ur family....
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1:32 pm    October 15, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
140
Moha,
who said 15 year old girl marrying an old man ??? i just said it should be ok for 15 years old girls to marry if they want, didn`t mention any thing about the husband !!!! wach kate9rra chi 7aja maktebtch ana temma??
go ask your mom how old was she or her mom when they got married, we know that women in morocco used to marry at he age of 12-13 because these girls are not kids any more they are women, and can give borth buddy,

Regarding your statment about christianity and judaism that they clearly stated that 1 woman is for 1 man , ARE YOU FOR REAL????
REALLY , WACH KAD7AKK 3LEYYA ANA ? WELLA KAD7AKK 3LA RASSEK 7IT KATGOUL N`IMPORTE KOI...,
LET ME TELL YOU BUDDY THAT DAOUD AND SOULAYMAN HAD MORE THAN 9 WIVES , A3AMMI, AND GUESS WHAT THEY WERE PROPHET`S TO THE ISRAELIS,
AND THERE IS CLEARLY NOTHING IN ANY OF THE TOURAHS OR THE BIBLES THAT STATES THAT POLYGAMY IS FORBIDDEN, IF IT DOES WOULD YOU BE SO KIND AND BRING US THE PROOF, INSTEAD OF JUST TALKING FOR THE TALK...

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1:31 pm    October 15, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
139
ALI,
HADI LMERRA TLATA W SEB3IIN WA9ILA RADI NGOUL ANA I DONT SUPPORT POLYGAMY,
so for somebody to marry a second wife he has to do that ONLY if his wife can`t give birth and that only if she agrees if she doesn`t want to she can ask for divorce, and same goes for women if her husband can`t give birth she can ask for a divorce and marry someone else,
OR if his wife is ill and can`t give him what a wife should give to her husband, so in that case i see it better if he keeps his first wife instead of leaving her ...., same goes for women if their husbands are ill they can ask for divorce to marry someone else,
BUT for a person who has a wife that can give birth, and not ill, i don`t think he should be allowed to marry another one even if he is the king.....
no Quran no ahadiths....

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1:10 pm    October 15, 2003
mb
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PJD approved??? hahahahaah....yes i know it is true ...but what a joke...they are sooo democratic now....but once they take over the power then u ll see what happens....it is all about giving a good image to get to their goal which is power...then bonjour les talibans...
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12:54 pm    October 15, 2003
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allah...santa barbara...fekertini f ayam zaman ...ayam l meghrib makanech mkabel ikhwan ou les bombes....kouna bikhir ...kantferjou ghir f eden capwell ou cruz castillo...santa barbara qui nous dira pourquoi j'ai le mal de vivre....3keltiw 3la l generique?...
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12:40 pm    October 15, 2003
Moha
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negociator,oh man your logic is strange ,which school did u go to ?
u don't see anything wrong in a marriage of 15 yr old girl,come on man that's no different from child molestation or child pornoraphy.
and in our wondeful islamic tradition there's nothing wrong with old man marrying a 15 yr old girl "3ala sunnati allah wa rassoulo",oh yeah we should be proud of our tratition no matter what. yeah right ? Now don't tell me that Islam at least put a limit on the number of wives because in pre-islamic arabia people used to have hundred of wives and bla bla You forget that christianity and judaism came before Islam and clearly stated 1man/1woman marriage only.When we say women are oppressed in today's muslim countries,we compare the miserable life of muslims women in yr 2003 to western women in yr 2003. So we don't compare them to the so-called t 'jahilyia" time in saudia arabia. So please don't compare apples and oranges,that the first requirement for a clear-headed logical raisonning.
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12:15 pm    October 15, 2003
m roki f Santa barbara
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Adnane,

You 're the man! I enjoy your postings! ....By the way, could you open a tread sometime about "Why is our governement in Morocco selecting "employed people" for military draft and letting "unemployed youth who would gladly take any job" rot in the streets???!

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12:11 pm    October 15, 2003
Ali
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Dear Negotiator:

1. Why are you so obsessed with this 15 year old who is going to suffer with her brothers?. Do you think that marriage is the only option here. Adoption is the key!.

2. I will adopt her and give her the chance of a decent education and a decent life. Will that make stop trying to hook her up with a MAN twice her age?.

3. Here is a challenge to you: Being a moderate and modest person, I am extending my hand to you in peace. Please, Negotiator, come up with 3 items (please use numbers) telling us what are the

a. financial criteria
b. housing criteria
c. documents criteria

(verifying that 1st and 2nd wife and judge know what's up with this man )

that must be presented by a MAN wanting to add a second wife. (I am talking about Casablanca, Morocco, of the year 2003). Please do not use any Koran nor Hadeeth quotes. Just use plain English or French.

Jazzakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

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11:45 am    October 15, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
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what di dhe write? can you tell me??
he didn`t invade the king`s privacy!!!! he draw some caricatures that showed men bowing to the Train that he was taking, and titled it by 9 madahir al3ouboudia) wach a3ibad allah kayen chi 7edd kayerka3 l train whoua dayez, wella tal3andna 7naya felblad?
they said he is a traitor, cause he ONLY wrote an interview that some body gave to a newspaper, where this guy says that the sahara shouldn`t be moroccan, he didn`t support the idea he just wrote the interview in his newspaper,

if this is justice well, allahou a3lam..,
Doustour says almalik chakhssoun mou9addass, aww 3la malou wella rassoul??? why even the prophet used to be asked about his deeds, al7ajjaj bnou youssef who was known to be harch used to listen to people whith their critics, why sa majetski??

Ali, Wow , great , great you did learn a lot from who you called Islamists,
it is very clear , you told us that they didn`t want this king`s decision, while the PJD didn`t see any thing wrong with it...., so it is clear you learn very much, and also how many islamists did you meet? to make that kind of judgment??
And By The way if those Islamists you are talking about having debates with them , are like us( Nego, Muslima, and the rest) well buddy you are worng..., i`m not an islamist, and i don`t think any of us here is......., we just have different opinions.....

by the way would you rather have your 15 year old daughter go with her husband or stay suffer with her brothers??? or escape and God knows what she will become.?
just a question sans rancune...

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10:58 am    October 15, 2003
mb
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nego, don t go and get me wront by thinking that i say this law is just...it is in a way...because it is his privacy...but again maybe the verdict should have been just making him pay a fine... but again doustour was clear about it...c etait a ses riskes et perils...
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10:45 am    October 15, 2003
mb
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nego,
just to get back to what you said about Ali lemrabet...i don t see anything wrong about putting this person in jail or make him pay a fine...i mean ...in the doustour it is clear that you can not criticize the king s personal life and that s what he did...he invaded his privacy...once this law is changed we can talk but now it is there we can t say anything about it...plus i dont really agree with the way that group of journalists do their job...( u know ppl from le journal and demain.. boubaker jamai ' s ppl) they are more into making money than giving informations...have u ever read their headlines...thay are scandalous and ppl love that ...scandal sells..we all know that...he is using ppl....so it is fair enough ..he wanted to play that game fine...he wrote what he wrote but now he has to pay...he should have been aware of that...it is in the doustour....
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10:30 am    October 15, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
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Ali I think you've spoken well throughout. Your ideas are practical and I enjoy reading you. King Hassan II defined "Islamist" in one of his interviews, as those who take Islam as a "profession". It is their career. In my humble opinion and after much thinking, I believe most of these people become career-centered. If you are acreer-centered you will live in conflict with yourself and others for a big chunk of your life.

We all have a center inside of us, it's like a black-hole, a center of gravity, and revolving around this center are many things: a career, money, possessions, friend, enemy, familly, principles, etc. It is a challenge to balance all of these satellites around our center. helas, some are only religion-centered, they find their security, safety, power and wisdom all in religion. If their religion is questioned, or threatened they become reactive and rebelious because they feel insecure. If someone is possession-centered, they enjoy their car, their house, their nintendo system, they find security, safety in that. If they lose all those possessions they don't know where else to find their secutiy, safety, power.

The best thing is to be principle-centered. Defining your principles is a though process and you'll find yourself adopting principles from religion, other religions, other cultures, your parents, your kids, your neighboors, your own experiences and experiences of others around you etc. Good princinples don't die and don't lie. Good pricinples don't pack their bags and run away from you. Good principles will always guide you, keep your head up in the midst of despair and environmental pressure.

So that's why I think one shouldn't be only religion-centered. Extract good principles from religion yes, and from other areas also.

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10:04 am    October 15, 2003
Ali
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Dear Adnane, Moha, and FZ:

I have dealt with these 4 wives debates in the past. This is what I have learnt from them as far as the "Islamists" are concerned.

1. The Islamists hate clear and well defined steps to be eligible by modern standards to marry a second women
2. The Islamists love to have vague rules. They are easy to break.
3. The Islamists do not want a civil law defining the criteria for adding a second wife in the 21st century. For example

a. If you tell them that in 2003, it costs 5000 dirhams to support one family in Casablanca.
b. To add a second wife, you need another 5000 dirhams. So the man has to earn 10000 dirhams

This is not acceptable to them. Why? because now you will be able to catch them in their own game. Their main argument here is that only "RICH MUSLIM MAN" will be able to marry more than one.

4. They want a "Muslim MAN" earning 100 dirhams a month to have the GOD given right to marry 4 wives, have 20 kids (they are GOD's kids), all of them uneducated or the "State must educate them for him", and the girls of this DUDE will be shipped as maids to Moroccan families for work. This way, the DUDE gets the girl's money in his pocket so that he is able to divorce and marry as he pleases.

5. They don't want the state to regulate this, because the state is now interfering in religious matters. However, they want to topple King M6 because he is not implementing the "Shariaa"


Jazzakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

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9:46 am    October 15, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
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Why not???
The law should not make it illegal for Girls to marry if they are not 18, why?
Because let`s say a Girl is treated badly by her parnets or her brothers, she wants to get out of there and the Only way to get out is to marry, or to escape, so this Law will handcuff her, and won`t let her get out, she has to stay suffering all these years, just because somebody made it illegal for her to marry if she is 15,
We know that Girls grow up faster than Boys, so some girls they are 13 but they look like they are 20, they need affiction(not from their parents) she has to wait for 5 more years to marry.., w zid w zid....,
She can finish her school after she gets married,
Don`t get me wrong, i wouldn`t want my Daughter to marry at the age of 13 or even 18, but i can`t stop her from doing that, cause i don`t know how she will be treated if i die and leave her when she is only 10 , her brothers might not treat her well...

regarding your questions
I don`t want the moroccan law to allow marrying 4 wives, as Adnane said it is only made harder, which is already in the Quran, you cannot marry more than one if you don`t belong to those categories...,
i was discussing the idea of banning it at all, this should have been appied long ago.

Moha, no comments for your sarcastic message, you need to know your pillars first ......, and then when you know every thing but how to walk and where, then you can ask about it, until then, you are fine, sir byeddik fejjib, wella f....

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9:16 am    October 15, 2003
Moha
127
negociator, I have aquestion for you:
what is the islamic way walking,is it halal or haram to walk with your hands in your pockets?
and which side of the street the prophet want us to talk on,the right side or the left side?
please help,muslim and confused
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9:11 am    October 15, 2003
FZ
126
I have to agree with adnane on this one. I also think that it's about time that women in morocco have some divorce an mariage rights. This should not be misinterpreted as an act of defamation of islam. This is one of the first steps taken into devolopping the country and taking it to another level. Modernization does not mean a lack of islamic values.
cheers
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8:49 am    October 15, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
125
People, the king is not banning marrying 4 wives, let's agree on this before you condemn him and those involved in the decision, and those involved in this raioo discussion.

He is applying a draconian criteria ---> severe practical requirements that hopefully PROJECT what the capital letter word "IF" in God's words could have meant. God in his verse that Negotiataor mentioned in one of his earlier posts, puts a big conditional term "IF". The change proposed breaks down that "IF" into criteria and enforce it by law. I see nothing wrong with it, he has done a great initiative.

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8:40 am    October 15, 2003
Ali
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Dear Negotiator:

1. Do you want the Moroccan law to allow a man to marry 4 wives?

2. In 2003, Casablanca, Morocco, Do you think that 5000 dirhams income per month is fair enough for One family?

3. If you agree to item 2, a man wanting to mary 2 women should earn 5000 + 5000 = 10000 dirhams

Is this fair enough?

Jazzakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

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8:16 am    October 15, 2003
Ali
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Dear Negotiator:

Do you want the Moroccan law to allow a 15 year old girl to marry?

Jazzakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam


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8:01 am    October 15, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
122
si je tombe malade mon mari me kitte pour aller se chercher une autre ahhh on ne veut de la femme ke kand elle est a 100% de sa beaute, physikal and sexual performance...no shouldn t work that way ...cause if something happends to the man the woman stays by his side and takes care of him we are not here just to make babies
Answer:
Allah Allah, b99a ghatgouli women are angles , wach tti men neyttek wella 3a dawia?? rah le3yalate fihoum w fihoum, w rjjal fihoum w fihoum, not every man leaves his wife cause she is ill, and NOT all women stands besides their husbands when they are ill..., ne3lli chi6an wbaraka matjem3i, i have a neighbour in morocco who is an Islamist his wife doesn`t give birth, and they are still together, i know them for 13 years now, they travel together, they go do some sports together, they love each other, don`t judge every body ......, I know of men that were miserable just because of their wives, wach mafekhbarekch , kttar men 90% dial nass lli kayemchiw l3and chewafat are women??? 3rafti chnou kaydirou lerjjal?? lehlla ywerrikoum...

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8:01 am    October 15, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
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Suite:
mohamed 6 est mauvais il ns a donne une certaine liberte d expression...., oh yeah?? so what happened to Ali lemrabet?
democracy????? wach 7makiti....democracy with more than 50 % of moroccan that are uneducated????
Answer:
well he can ask only the educated people to vote, but don`t make a decision for more than 30 million people. if he supports democracy and want it, he should be an example, machi ygoul chi weydiir chi akhour.


et puis la c est un debut...deja on fait rentrer ds les tetes k il y a une egalite entre homme et femmes...faut pas voir ca comme une guerre contre l islam car j ai lu son discours et franchement il a rien fait encore ki contredit l islam
Answer:
And who said that l`egalite entre femme et hommes wasn`t in our head??? probably some of us still think women are inferior to men , but we can`t generalize,
Yes he hasn`t done any thing yet that contradicts Islam, but he is preparing for it, to make polygamy illegal is one of them, period.

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7:53 am    October 15, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
120
If you at least know one woman that is beaten by her islamist husband, i can give you at least 10 that i know that they get beaten by their drunk(modrate as you might call them) husbands, does Islam tell him to beat his wife?? NO< so why blame islam for an act that a stupid person did?

you are free to wear Hijab-
*Not every where , my friend applied for a job(teacher) they asked her to take the hijab off, when she refused they said you can wear it but in side the class !!.

and you are free to go to school.
*If you don`t have the money you can`t.

You are free to go to the bar and drink alcohol. -
*no in the doustour it is illegal to sell alcohol to muslims.

You are free to have a girlfriend to talk to. -
NO buddy , yjji boulissi yew9af 3liik yla machi mratek, temchiw ntta weyyaha lebni9a.

nego....
je crois ke ce ke tu dis est due au someil...je l espere en tt cas....women need someone to feed them????????? wach fhemtek oula feed them has another meaning... this is the most ridiculous thing i ve ever heard.....we need men ....oulahila c est la meilleure du top 50...wa tellement it s silly malkit mangoul lek ....
Answer:
iwa 7it mafhamtich, who was or still giving you money?? isn`t it your father, if not in your case, well the majority are dependant on their fathers, so that`s why i said women(daughters+ wives+ mothers) need someone to takae care of them, until they can be independent, it is mem`s responsibility to take care of women, men are phisically stronger, they can work more than women...., when women get pregnants they need their husbands to take care of them..., Of course men need wives to take of them as well, and i think men need more care than women.


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7:48 am    October 15, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
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111
was this DNA available 1500 years ago???
you see how God thinks about the entire life and not only on certain times like you guys do, that is why we(men and women) cannot make such laws , cause we didn`t create this universe.
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7:31 am    October 15, 2003
Ali
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continued...

12. I know how you feel about applying the Koran, it has not happened in 1500 years and it will not happen in the next 1500 years. Humans are humans. Enjoy life, your family, your friends and neighbors, the people of other faiths (all of them, including Muslims, Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, etc...). We are all in this together.

13. You say that "Islam is current and up to date", I kindly disagree with you, Islam is not up to date because we, Muslims, have not been pro-active enough to keep up with the 21st century demand. It's very sorry that we still have people who think that a 15 year old girl should be allowed to marry, instead of finishing her school.
14. Nobody in this forum is against Islam. We want to improve Islam. You want to stick with "Islam 1.0" released 1500 years ago, good for you. I want "Islam 2.0", with modern features so that many of the simple issues we have in the 21st century are solved (women rights, interest from a bank, condoms during marriage, abortion, etc...). Remember that "Islam 2.0" will be backward compatible with "Islam 1.0".
15. In "Islam 2.0", every Moroccan, men, women, Muslim (modern and fundamentalist), Jew, Christian will live in peace and harmony. Girls will be educated, a husband will love his wife and only ONE unless her 100% valid consent (verified by a judge, etc...) is approved. Nobody will be harassing fundamentalist for going to the Mosque. Nobody will be harassing men and women sunbathing at the beach. We will all give respect and receive respect.
16. Here is a parting thought: "Never put a period where Allah put a comma".

Jazzakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

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7:31 am    October 15, 2003
Ali
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continued..

5. As far as I know, 1500 years have passed and I have yet to see a single "Muslim" country applying 100% of what the Koran and Hadeeth preaches. This tells me that even during the reign of the so called "Knowledgeable" people about religion, Muslims have failed miserably.

6. Can you please point me to the name of a single country in the "Muslim world" that followed the Koran and applied the ideals mentioned in the Koran, since the beginning of Islam?

7. As far as I know, not even 10 years after the death of our Prophet (PBUH), fighting started between different sects, shiaa, , sahaba, Khalifas, etc...and Muslims have never seen the light of justice since then.

10. Don't worry, it's not only Islam that got screwed, same thing has hit Christianity and Judaism. I personally think that it's pointless for a person to call themselves a "Muslim" because you are either 100% Muslim or not. People should call themselves human beings, trying to do the best they can.

11. In general, I think a lot of people in this planet are wondering what is this game of religion anyways? If God is almighty and has all of these powers we say "HE" has, why can't he intervene for the sake of humanity and give us ALL at once what we are supposed to do, so that we might stop killing and hating each other. Humanity is kind of sick of the "Human experiment by some higher power".

continued...

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7:29 am    October 15, 2003
Ali
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Dear Outkast:

1. A good human being does not use BAD language during a debate. As a human being, I forgive you and love you and help you. The purpose of these discussions is to present ideas and how to improve our Morocco.

2. I know that you are probably not used to people questioning your beliefs. You are probably used to giving answers in the form of a Koran verse or a Hadeeth that answers maybe 30% of the problem at hand. The people in this forum, as you can see, ask tough questions, want logical answers, want modern answers, want Islam to move to the future, want Islam to align itself with the 21st century realities.

3. As I said in many postings, as a Muslim, I feel that Islam was Hijacked by fundamentalists who refuse to see the sorry state of Muslims in the 21st century. I have read many postings saying that Islam, Hadeeth, Koran, etc is valid for all times and should not change. I agree with the first part, Islam is valid for all times, however it must adjust to the modern times and its requirements.

4. 1500 years ago, there were no condoms. Are they Halal or Haram? 1500 years ago, there was no internet. Is it Halal or Haram? 1500 years ago, there was no artificial insemination. Is it Halal or Harm? 1500 years ago, there was no airplanes, going back and forth between Mecca and Jerusalem takes less than 4 hours. Is this a miracle with 1500 years standards?

continued...

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12:56 am    October 15, 2003
oasienne
115
107
MB i like your way of thinking sister:)
Fekkertini f bentdreyfa c'est pas toi quand m?me?:)
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12:46 am    October 15, 2003
oasienne
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95
MUSLIMA:Je n'aurais qu'un commentaire: c'est ?puisant , affligeant et d?courageant de lire ce genre de choses:(
Wa lalla muslima puisque b9a fik el 7al b7al hakda siri t3chii f saudi arabia or Iran, ou la ta hadouk ma 3ajbinekch?chka tdiri f chicago? first of all why do u use internet?ral koffar li khtar3ouh!

Wa wallahila je vais devenir une ermite soufie dans une caverne qq part en islande, bnadem kay 3ay .Had el islam ch7am beddoultou fih, koulla wa7ed wants to be the holder of the eternel TRUTH!
oufffffffffff
A

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12:30 am    October 15, 2003

Antr McShaddad (Yahia.L) message
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I will add to that the need to crack down on corruption , and please, I refuse to hear that it can NEVER be attacked with sucess !
Other nations did it , we can do it too .

An increase in the minimum wage is required, as well the creation of a watchdog keeping an eye on the administrations, police force, juridical system, companies and entreprises, by creating false scenarios where corruption is taking place...(the scenarios are endless and so are the poeple who can take part of it )
and who ever falls in the trap, gets fired from his Job and possibly face jail !
Corrupt poeple are tricky, so you have to play tricky ...
On the top of that, an independant board should be watching over the watchdog and making sure that he is doing his job .
If such a system would be available, withing years, corruption in Morocco would drop dramatically .
and that would save morocco, money, time and energy .


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9:30 pm    October 14, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
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Great achievement ! more to come.

Need to apply some improvements to the education system.

1. Focus on building good teachers for the kids. Monitor the teachers, evaluate them periodically under strict measures. If a teacher is depressed, violent and plain "bad" take MEASURES: SAVE THE KIDS. (Last week a teacher from rabat threw 2 kids out of the window injuring them, the article was reported on CNN). Adopt within school motivational programmes such as: Best teacher of the month, of the year awards. Best student, best athelete student, best this and best that.. give students and teachers and school staff a sense of pride, of self-awareness.

2. Get all kids of Morocco, boys and girls, in cities or farms, to schools. Pay for the poor.

3. Give financial aid to students to go seek education in other cities and other countries, and give priority to bright students from POOR famillies. Collect MORE tax from the rich to help pay for this.

4. Introduce school extra-curricular activities: school newspapers, magazines, organizations, volunteer work, summer programmes etc. Create a s,all civic society in the school that prepares students for their future roles in the real society.

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9:19 pm    October 14, 2003

Antr McShaddad (Yahia.L) message
111
Nego Wrote :
"Regarding DNA wel paternity tests... tests can be worng ...., jsut like when they tell you that you are having a babyboy fellekhar katel9ah baby girl "


-The DNA tests are at least as accurate as individual finger prints, if not more...
When OJ Simpson's DNA was found in the crime scene, the chances that somebody else would have an identical DNA than his, was one ONE in TEN BILLION!!


*extract *

How accurate is DNA-Based paternity testing?
The Genetic Profiles DNA Profiling method is an extremely accurate genetic testing method. It can absolutely determine if the man is not the biological father and reliably exclude him. DNA Profiling can establish that the alleged father is the child's biological father with a probability of paternity of 99% or higher. Each year many individual clients, child support offices, attorneys, judges and physicians choose Genetic Profiles as their source for information, guidance and testing services in order to determine paternity.

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8:45 pm    October 14, 2003
Ali
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Good news:

Family law reforms welcomed by Moroccan political parties and associations
Morocco, Politics, 10/14/2003

Reforms to the family law announced on Friday by King Mohammed VI were broadly welcomed by several political parties and associations in Morocco as landmark changes to the status of women in Morocco.

The first party to express its support to the reform proposals was the Islamic moderate Party for Justice and Development (PJD/in parliament) which released on Saturday night a communiqu? in which it "welcomes and supports the review of the family law announced by Amir Al-Muminin as a pioneering reform and considers it to be in favor of the family and of women, in addition to being a substantial asset for the entire Moroccan nation."

The PJD added that "it values the keen concern of Amir-Al Muminin, His Majesty king Mohammed VI to see to it that the reform of the family law is in line with the prescriptions of Islam and with the aims of our religion, which advocates justice, equity and call for honoring human beings."

Women associations also hailed the announced reforms and noted that they meet the expectations of Moroccan women and preserve their dignity.

There is hope after all!

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8:34 pm    October 14, 2003
Ali
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100
Dear Negotiator,

Men also need women to take care of them. Besides, I think men need sex at least twice a month otherwise, they will go crazy.

It's Ok for 4 men to share one woman under those circumstances. Since you said a woman needs the support of men, if she has 4 husbands, she will be getting four times as much support. I think she will be very secure indeed.

Jazzakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

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8:32 pm    October 14, 2003
Moha
108
Muslima the jihadi girl what u doing in Chicago the land of infidels and no good Kuffars.You supposed to be in your cave in Afghanistan.And please don't come preach to us your vilolent form of Islam (calling for the overthrow of King M6 and etc).Honnestly I don't even think you're moroccan, you sound like those crazy new converts to islam who follow saudi style intolerant Islam. I meet lot of american converts who are more fanatics than majority of pple in muslim country,because they read those stupid saudi books about Islam.
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8:25 pm    October 14, 2003
mb
107
suite
je pense meme k il y est alle avec le dos de la cuillere...parceke tte ces lois..peuvent facilement etre contourne par la corruption...une femme ila ja 3endha rajelha et lui dis k il veut en epouser une autre et ke s il accepte pas il va la repudie...en sachant ke cette femmes la fait partie de celle pour ki leur husband represente le seul income...bien sur k elle va dire oui ...hell yes......il doit interdire la polygamie...what the heck....si je tombe malade mon mari me kitte pour aller se chercher une autre ahhh on ne veut de la femme ke kand elle est a 100% de sa beaute, physikal and sexual performance...no shouldn t work that way ...cause if something happends to the man the woman stays by his side and takes care of him we are not here just to make babies
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8:24 pm    October 14, 2003
mb
106
100
nego....
je crois ke ce ke tu dis est due au someil...je l espere en tt cas....women need someone to feed them????????? wach fhemtek oula feed them has another meaning... this is the most ridiculous thing i ve ever heard.....we need men ....oulahila c est la meilleure du top 50...wa tellement it s silly malkit mangoul lek ....
ou ila jina nsewlou basri ...rah machi ghir basri li ghandirou f l bascket ...rah tte la creme ( comme on l appelle) de rabat et casa et ..et ..et ..k on va questionner....rah mouchkila khraaaaaa.....ou meskine basri ghir m3edyin 3lih (facon de parler, je n approuve pas ce k il a fait)...malou ghir ja ou il a fait ce k il a fait...c est sous les ordres de hassan 2 ( que dieu ai son ame car je l aimais bien kand meme) k il a fait tte ces conneries... on a attendu jusk a ce ke hassan 2 soit mort pour parler...ahhhh oui..c est vrai du tps de hassan 2 personne ne pouvait dire un mot....mohamed 6 est mauvais il ns a donne une certaine liberte d expression....
democracy????? wach 7makiti....democracy with more than 50 % of moroccan that are uneducated????...i told you ...we have to folow some steps....rah democracy d un seul coup au maroc rah ca peu lead to the civil war....on est pas encore pret pour la democracy a 100% on doit prendre la democracie comme une drogue ...petit a petit jusk a ce ke notre brain iwelef 3liha....
et puis la c est un debut...deja on fait rentrer ds les tetes k il y a une egalite entre homme et femmes...faut pas voir ca comme une guerre contre l islam car j ai lu son discours et franchement il a rien fait encore ki contredit l islam ...
·

8:01 pm    October 14, 2003
Ali
105
104
continued...

10. I heard that some Islamists came to the beach in Casablanca and started harassing people swimming and sunbathing. Is this true?
If you, the Islamist are in reading this. Why can?t you live in a Morocco like this? Why do you want your vision of Islam to be shoved down the throats of decent happy Moroccans? Why are the moderates not harassing you in you Mosques etc..?

Jazzakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

·

8:00 pm    October 14, 2003
Ali
104
103
continued...

8. Right here in Casablanca, I personally know at least 1 woman who is regularly beaten by her Islamist husband who is also trying to force his son and daughter to be like him. And the same lingo that I am seeing in this forum, reminds me of this dude who still does not get it (By the way, he does have a long beard and think that the majority of the neighborhood is going to Hell). The reality is, just like any Moroccan, I have seen with my own eyes what women are going through. And giving a verse from the Koran or a Hadeeth is not enough. These things are subject to misinterpretation (hence this debate) that is why a clear civil law was drafted to lessen the pain of our women

9. By the way, I prefer to live in a Morocco where both the Islamists and the moderates live in peace and justice. The problem is this, the Islamists want the moderates to dress like them, pray like them, get a beard like them, and wear a Hijab like them. In other words this is called Harassment. As you can see, in Morocco, you are free to go to the Mosque, you are free to wear Hijab, and you are free to go to school. You are also free to go to the beach. You are free to go to the bar and drink alcohol. You are free to smoke. You are free to go to the beach and wear a nice bikini and sunbath. You are free to have a girlfriend to talk to. You are free to own a business. You are free to dream. No body is going to harass you.

continued...

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7:58 pm    October 14, 2003
Ali
103
101
continued...

5. There are no outside enemies of Islam, the only enemies of Islam are those who refuse to extent the BASE Islam (brought to us by Mohammed (PBUH) and instructed us to be intelligent, to use Ijtihaad, to be flexible, and to modify the workings of Islam in order to make it a religion of the world not just a religion of the ?Islamists?.

6. Nobody in this forum is trying to drive a wedge between men and women, this is a healthy debate that you probably are not used to hearing because if you dare to say stuff like this in an ?Islamic country?, you will die because there is no freedom of speech in these so called Islamic nations (If I were in Iran or even If I say what I think downtown Casablanca, I know a Fatwa will be put on my head).

7. You mention in your posting that people are telling women that they are abused, put down, etc?That is a fact. If you live in Morocco and have not seen that abuse and injustice with your own eyes, I wonder where you were. Just to mention a few things: 50 year old women divorced with no money, no education, etc?Husbands running off with another young and poor woman whose father was obliged to sell her off!etc?


continued...

·

7:58 pm    October 14, 2003
Ali
102
101
continued...

5. There are no outside enemies of Islam, the only enemies of Islam are those who refuse to extent the BASE Islam (brought to us by Mohammed (PBUH) and instructed us to be intelligent, to use Ijtihaad, to be flexible, and to modify the workings of Islam in order to make it a religion of the world not just a religion of the ?Islamists?.

6. Nobody in this forum is trying to drive a wedge between men and women, this is a healthy debate that you probably are not used to hearing because if you dare to say stuff like this in an ?Islamic country?, you will die because there is no freedom of speech in these so called Islamic nations (If I were in Iran or even If I say what I think downtown Casablanca, I know a Fatwa will be put on my head).

7. You mention in your posting that people are telling women that they are abused, put down, etc?That is a fact. If you live in Morocco and have not seen that abuse and injustice with your own eyes, I wonder where you were. Just to mention a few things: 50 year old women divorced with no money, no education, etc?Husbands running off with another young and poor woman whose father was obliged to sell her off!etc?


continued...

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7:55 pm    October 14, 2003
Ali
101
95
Dear Muslima,

1. I am glad to see you asking women and men to defend Islam. Indeed that is exactly what I, as a Muslim, trying to do for my religion. Remember, that you seem not to accept the fact that raising the age of marriage from 15 to 18. Can you tell me what is wrong with that? And if you have some specific Hadeeth or ?CLEAR? verse from the Koran that says a 15 year old girl ?MUST? marry, let the readers of this forum know about it.

2. I know how you feel when there is an imminent change to something you were used to for so long. Remember, we want a pro-active Islam. Not a stale Islam. If you are using a computer, you probably are using Windows XP or Windows 98. No body wants to use Windows 3.0 (this operating system is old and very inefficient and has an ugly GUI. Windows XP has the same BASE it?s just the look that is different. So, we are not trying to kill Islam, we are just trying to get it back to it should be in the 21st century.

3. I keep hearing the same old excuses that Islam gave this right and that right to women, yet, in 1500 years of Islamic civilization, Muslim women are the most oppressed on earth. Let?s face it, you can?t deny the fact that Muslim women have at least 50% or more illiteracy rate. Any human being with a brain must admit this fact and find practical 21st century solutions to it

4. I asked this question at least 3 or 4 times and so far no answers: Please, give me the name of a Muslim nation after the death of the Prophet (PBUH) that has applied the Islamic Shariaa 100% and succeeded in doing so. So far, the answer is zero


continued...

·

7:24 pm    October 14, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
100
MB,
tanti 3ziza ......,
and i don`t think that i have des idees a l anti podes des tiennes, ghir we all see things from different angles..,
Regarding DNA wel paternity tests, wach nass l9aw tayweklou krouchhoum 3ad bach ykhessrou leflouss bach ydirou tests, tests can be worng ...., jsut like when they tell you that you are having a babyboy fellekhar katel9ah baby girl,

Regarding bassri, hanti 3awtani mafhamtinich, if bassri made the money when hassan 2 was a king, when M6 became a king and kicked him out, he should have taken what doesn`t belong to him, he needed to do ( min ayna laka hada) he is the king of the country so he can do that, or not?
He does whatever he pleases,
First of all these new laws shouldn`t he prepare them and have people vote for them, instead of just imposing it on people??? isn`t that how democracy works??

Ali, if la9addara allah men will find them selves with only few women, we don`t need to share women, because the main reason why polygamy is allowed in islam is because women need somebody to feed them, men if there are no women they can survive, polygamy is not ONLY ABOUT SEX asa7bbi....

·

6:42 pm    October 14, 2003
mb
99
muslima...
u said:"Those enemies use many methods and we need to oppose to them" who are those ennemies????? who shall we fight??? don t get you....
u also said: Your happiness is in being an obedient and believing daughter, a loyal and generous wife and a pious and merciful mother.

obedient at which price? how loyal? and how generous? ....
if americans are koufar and enemies why are u here ? are u here to spread islam?? am really just asking ...don t get me wrong....
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4:51 pm    October 14, 2003
Ali
98
92
Dear Negotiator,

1. There is a test called paternity test that will determine who is the father of the baby. There is also something called DNA testing that will verify the same thing.

2. Now that you seem open to having 4 husbands marry 1 wife. Here?s a scenario for you: If a disease kills 75% of Muslim women, which means there?s one woman for every 4 man, will Islam allow 4 husbands to share the same woman.

3. I personally think it should! The alternative is either killing among the men or homosexuality.


Jazzakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

·

4:11 pm    October 14, 2003
mb
97
nego!!
just about having 4 husbands....( je suis pas d accord avec ca ..car je pense ke ds le mariage in faut etre fidele a une seule personne koi k il arrive ...pour le meilleur et pour le pire...ds la sante et la maladie...c est ma vision du mariage) but just FYI there is a thing called paternity tests...so that wouldn t be an issue :))) just teasing you dude...rak 3ziz 3liya wakha t as des idees a l anti podes des miennes:)))))
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4:06 pm    October 14, 2003
mb
96
92
Nego,
i didn t mean to be sarcastic...oulah j ai dis k il est mort endete....pas k il est mort tt court...je suis pas nee non plus avec a golden spoon in my mouth...comme on dit :)...pas tt les ministres vivent ds le luxe....j en connais ki vivent ds le meme apart ke kand ils etaient prof a la fac...ils ont pas change de style de vie... je sais ke bassri n en est pas le parfait exemple mais encore une fois n oublions pas ke basri c etait du tps de hassan 2...donc il ne faut pas juger le nouveau roi sur ce k a fait son pere ....son pere a fait bcp de tort au pays....celui la essaye de changer les choses....la democratie ne se construit pas en une journee ...c est vrai les gens crevent de froid et de faim k ils ne savent meme pas lire ou ecrire et k ils voient leurs parents mourir devant leurs yeux car ils ont pas de koi se payer une operation chirurjicale ...je me mets a la place de ces gens...je n y suis pas insensible mais je ne mets pas de l huile sur le feu.....n agravont pas les choses....rah les bidons villes ils sont en train de leur donner des logis ...tu sais ce k ils font avec ..ben il restent ds leurs bidons villes et sous loue l apart ke le government leur a donne....etc
·

2:37 pm    October 14, 2003
A Muslima
95
la suite.........
These people, that I personaly call ignorants, ignite enmity between you and man. they give us ideas about how we should live, they say that, we muslim daughters are put down, humiliated mothers, an abused wife and an oppressed sister! Men are always unjust, hypocrites, dictators, freedom- preventers and suppressers, according to them.

They do not call for justice, mercy and unity. They call for hatred, arrogance and destruction.They call upon you to rebel against the obligations of Islam and the decrees of the All-Knowing King. Islam, to them, is unjust and Islamic laws are imperfect and restrictive. and so we should chage ourselves to please them as our models!!!!!!!

To them, Hijab does not cover the head, but also covers the mind; prayer, fasting and Zakat are a waste of time and effort; and obedience to husbands is slavery and a retum to the stone age.

They keep calling adultury, short clouths, desobeing you parent, your brothers your husbands"FREEDOM"???!!!!!!

dear sister read and know about those women who discarded shyness and honor and followed their desires, what was the result of their deeds? Was their end honorable and desirable, or was it a shameful and hated end?

Your happiness is in being an obedient and believing daughter, a loyal and generous wife and a pious and merciful mother.

I hope that this helps women to feel better about their religion that is being mistreated for money and power.

salams.

·

2:37 pm    October 14, 2003
A Muslima
94
salamoualikum,

I want to say these things to every single Mulim women in my country,

our rasool(s.a.w)said:
"Women are, indeed, men's partner"
you as a moroccan muslim women are a membre of the great nation of islam,It is the nation of guidance and the straight religion, and it leads humanity to righteousness and truth, before Islam, women were mistreated, but this religion brouth justice of Allah in earth.

My dear sister, all what is happening in our country are just signs of Akhira, you are called upon today to truly become an active member of the Muslim nation, strive to establish victory for Allah's Word, implement the Quran and help build the generation of Iman.

Our enemies are taking us away for the reason why we were created, we are here in this earth to worship God, not to worship money.

they want to distract you from doing your duty. They want to distract you from meeting your noble obligation, that is, to defend the religion of Allah and raise His Word high.

Those enemies use many methods and we need to oppose to them. These people use this life as their bates: jewelers, fashion, Music, cool guys, cool friends, night clubs, swimming pools, new models, sexy stars,

·

2:35 pm    October 14, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
93
91
Wassi ALI,
hanan njawbek yla sma7tti,
2. Remember, that the "Islamists" are the only ones who are against these new rules. They want to keep the girls from getting an education. They want to snatch them while they are young and vulnerable. This way, the Islamists use these innocent girls for sex, and then they go around telling us that this is GOD's order. The Islamists want the girls to serve them
answer:
you are wrong go read attajdid, and you will see that the islamists didn`t say no, they said well it is already in the chari3a....

aji can you tell us how do you know what you wrote? i mean hwo do you know that the islamists, wants to keep girls from education, to have them young to satisfy their sexual desires , and , and ,and, you seem to know all of them don`t you?
and you ask people not to judge...

3. When is the last time you saw an Islamist and an educated modern girl marry?. Exactly my point!
this past sunday....

·

2:31 pm    October 14, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
92
Ali,
You said that after 10 years melli the prophet died, people diverted into two groups, but did that make them forget the rules?? they were still killing the murderer, cutting thieves hands, giving the heritage as it is in the Quran, after the Islamic Empire fell, that is when we saw that some countries started their own laws......

ANY ways every body does whetever suites him or her, but always put in mind that one day we will stand in front of our creator ...

who doesn`t fear God will not fear law...

I heard that someone was saying why can`t women have 4 husbands, well assi l9arri wella l9arya, because a man with for wives he will always know who is the mother, but for a woman with 4 husbands how the heck would she know who is the father? !!!!

Allah yjib lli yefhamna wmaye36ina walou

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2:23 pm    October 14, 2003
Ali
91
88
Dear Muslima:

1. Raising the age of marriage from 15 to 18 is done so that girls in Morocco get a chance to finish school (at least the BAC). A 15 trough 18 year girl has no business having sex, married nor single. Education, family, and protection should be her primary concerns.

2. Remember, that the "Islamists" are the only ones who are against these new rules. They want to keep the girls from getting an education. They want to snatch them while they are young and vulnerable. This way, the Islamists use these innocent girls for sex, and then they go around telling us that this is GOD's order. The Islamists want the girls to serve them

3. When is the last time you saw an Islamist and an educated modern girl marry?. Exactly my point!

4. If a person does not get it through their heads that 15 year old is a child! They must be pedophiles, rapists, abusers, and they need to be locked up in Jail!

5. I agree with you that some people might marry and divorce in a serial fashion. I am assuming here that if a Man or a Woman keep this cycle, they should not have the right to marriage because they are not the marriage kind. If the person with this disease is a man and he is a sexual predator (he marries and divorces for sex), there is a medical procedure called castration, whereby his sexual desires gets removed.

Jazzakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

·

2:16 pm    October 14, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
90
Suite:
MB,
Regarding your sarcastic question , if i kow that hassan2 died, well i`m sure he is BUT did you know that when someone dies he doesn`t take his money with him?
Instead of spending that money on R-kelly`s Birthday last year when he gave him a million dollars , you know how many hnugry families he could have fed, you know how many houses he could have opened, do you guys see the unjistice in morocco like you see it in the quran and ahadiths???
elbassri has a freacking large Golf court in tetouan that is Green all year long and just across the street there are people with no running water, hadechi koullou wkatgouli he is doing??? what is he doing, go to lebrarek and see how people are living, and go to a ministers house and see how he is living,
look at the parliament, ministers getting paid with millions a month (6 or 7) and a normal employe there gets 3000 DHS a month, where is the petrol that we heard was discovered in Morocco ?? the rich getting richer and poor getting poorer, do you think i should expect from someone who spends most of his days between jetskiing and having orgies, and , and ,and to do somebetter fo the country??
amir almou2minine, gallek, wach ameer almou2minine omar ibn alkha66ab, kan kayhezz lkhancha dial zra3 yeddiha lelfou9ara2 3la dahrou, kaygoullou lghoulam dialou ara nhezz 3liik, kaygoullou wach radi thezzha 3leyya f yawm al9iyamah, Omar ibn alkha66ab, kan kaykhaf rebbi y3addbou 3lach massaebch 6rii9 l dabba(horse) lli f chamm, while he was in mekkah, cause achamm was under the islamic rule.....
aweddi khaliwnna saktiin...,
·

2:15 pm    October 14, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
89
MB,
It is easy to say yes he can do when you see that he really can do, if you don`t see what he can do probably because you were born with s golden spoon in your mouth as we say,
I don`t think you understood well what i said, when i said they`ll become prostitutes, it isn`t because of their sexual needs, it is because of their financial needs, cause wehen a woman has no job, no father no husband no brothers, what the hell would she do other than sell her body??
I still don`t know where you get this false ideas , like Islam gave their uncles the right to get more than half the house!!!???? aww do you another islam than we do????
to add i don`t see any excuse for girls to become prostitutes, for the money or for othe rthings, and i will blame the so called amir almou2minine, for not creating more jobs for them,
Regarding the money that M6 has, well i`m sure a lot of people can buy those villas or palaises, or at least transform them to othe rthings, khayriyate, libraries, museums, any thing that will bring some money back, yes he didn`t build them but they are his now,
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1:45 pm    October 14, 2003
A Muslima
88
salamoualikoum,

In moroccan society many times when relations are strained, the husband simply deserts his wife. The he cohabits with a prostitute or other immoral woman without marriage. Actually there are 4kinds of polygamy practiced in our country

1.serial polygamy, that is, marriage, divorce, marriage, divorce, and so on any number of times;

2.a man married to one woman but having and supporting one or more mistresses;

3.an unmarried man having a number of mistresses.

4.a man with more than one wife.
Islam condones but discourages the first and forbids the other two.

numbre 1 and 4 are halal but not recommended in Islam.
numbre2 and 3are haram

Mr king have made 1 and 4 haram and2.3 halal.

Also the age of marriage had encreased from 15 to 18, well women just as men do have a sexual desire, and they have need to fulfill their desires somehow, so they will go out with there boyfriends instead of their hasbunds and make out, hemmmmmm, that souds a good futur for a muslim country specialy when your oun parent are not allowed to say anything about it, because they can say "well I love him and I don't care about what you guys are gonna say, we are getting married anyway, and you don't have to agree with it"

I think that we realy need to save our religion, but the first step is to kick out the King from the thrown.

salams

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1:13 pm    October 14, 2003
Ali
87
85
continued...

I know how you feel about applying the Koran, it has not happened in 1500 years and it will not happen in the next 1500 years. Humans are humans. Enjoy life, your family, you friends and neighbors, the people of other faiths (all of them, including Muslims, Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, etc...). We are all in this together.

I understand that the Koran gave a lot of these rights to man and woman, people want to see these rights made simple and understandable using the 21st century language of freedom, love, happiness. Go with the flow, times have changed! Islam must be fitted with a 21st century engine to be competitive.

Jazzakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

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1:11 pm    October 14, 2003
mb
86
83
it is very easy to actually say that someone can do better.. on a pas tt les parametres du paysages politiques marocains pour dire k il peut ou ne pas faire mieux...donc vaut mieux s abstenir...tu as dis ke le jours ou les femmes vont devenir plus nombreuse ke les hommes il y auras plus de prostitution et d homosexualite...:))) seriously... you really think those girls become prostitutes for sex...just for the pleasure they get ( if they get any)...they do it for money...they do it in order to survive because when their father died the islamic law gave the right to their uncle to get more than the half of the house and he just made it hell for them to live under the same roof:))) they dont have a job...don t have a degree..how the hell are they gonna live...charity from their uncles or brothers who really don t give a s...???. it s easy to judge those girls...malhoum kerhou ikounou on the right side of society???...lesbiennes!!! well they do it because they are born like that...they are just not attracted to men....
M6 has expensive villas and palaces!!!! his father built them....so he didn t actually by them...dekhelna 3lek belah..even if he wants to get rid of them in order to please the moroccan polpulation ...who is gonna buy them....other moroccans? how many have the buying power to afford that kind of stuff.... tu sais au fait ke le roi Hassan 2 est mort assez endete....so what money you are talking about...
·

1:09 pm    October 14, 2003
Ali
85
83
Dear Negotiator:

As far as I know, 1500 years have passed and I have not seen a single "Muslim" country applying 100% of what the Koran and Hadeeth preaches. This tells me that even during the reign of the so called "Knowledgeable" people about religion, Muslims have failed miserably.

Can you please point me to the name of a single country in the "Muslim world" that followed the Koran and applied the ideals mentioned in the Koran, since the beginning of Islam?

As far as I know, not even 10 years after the death of our Prophet (PBUH), fighting started between different sects, shiaa, , sahaba, Khalifas, etc...and Muslims have never seen the light of justice since then.

Don't worry, it's not only Islam that got screwed, same thing has hit Christianity and Judaism. I personally think that it's pointless for a person to call themselves a "Muslim" because you are either 100% Muslim or not. People should call themselves human beings, trying to do the best they can.

In general, I think a lot of people in this planet are wondering what is this game of religion anyways? If God is almighty and has all of these powers we say "HE" has, why can't he intervene for the sake of humanity and give us ALL at once what we are supposed to do, so that we might stop killing and hating each other. Humanity is kind of sick of the "Human experiment by some higher power".

continued...

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12:39 pm    October 14, 2003
me
84
Does the king first of all fit to be Amir Al muminin? I haven't heard of Amir Al muminin who drinks, smokes, has male lovers and allows all kind of illegal habits in his palace, including orgies and parties with non muslims. Who's given him that title anyways?
·

11:52 am    October 14, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
83
MB,
I will teach my kids what the prophet said, but i will make sure that they will understand it very well, AND i will never teach them to oppose religion, if a 7adith is sa7i7 , then there is nothing they can do about it,
Only people who don`t understand the 7ikmah from it that will say it is injust, or they will interpret it their way, and i don`t think that you know how i think, i Follow the hadith that says( yassirou wala tou3assirou, bachirrou wala tounaffirou) alislam dinn wassa6, i will never say about the quran that it is unjust, and it is my right, if think otherwise, meziane,

ALI,
you see these things that he just made, we have them 1500 years ago, polygamy was forbidden for those who can`t afford it, only in some circumstances that it was allowed, so what`s new???

If you guys think that M6 is doing a great job, and that he can`t do more at the moment, well i`m sorry but i think he can do much much better, instead of having all these palaises and villas, and expensive cars, and , and , and all the money that his father left for him, he can help a lot, instead of giving f6our f ramadan,

I wonder who made that first moudawanna ???

and I hope that a day won`t come when we will see that women are 6 times the number of men in morocco, because guess what, if polygamy is forbidden by law, then 5/6 of women will either become prostitutes, or lesbiens...., or whatever, allah ye7fad, taht`s why i think we should never forbid what it is 7alal, we can make it harder BUT never make it forbidden, cause ALLAH already made it impossible for us to marry a second wife, but he didn`t forbid it.

·

9:54 am    October 14, 2003
Ali
82
80
Dear Negotiator:

I am glad you finally agree that woman and man should not get married until at least the age of 18 so that they have an opportunity to educate themselves. So that Morocco can finally break the cycle of abusing young girls and taking away any chance of a decent life they may have!

As you can see, it really does not need 100 verses from the Koran or 10000 hadeeth from the sunaa to come to simple conclusions.

By the way, I personally do not care if King M6 calls himself Amir All Moominin or First Athlete, or first man on earth, or...Those are meaningless titles. When a leader of a country makes bold decisions to move his or her country forward, that's leadership.

King M6 is not his father Hassan-II. I grow up with Hassan-II and saw the development of Morocco. Believe me, I am glad we are not in the same boat as what is going on in Algeria. King Hassan-II did his time and now he met his maker. The current King is dealing with the 21st century realities (liberals and conservatives), tough decisions are waiting ahead.

Thanks,

Jazzakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

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9:42 am    October 14, 2003
mb
81
80
Nego,
how do you know he doesn t care??? he made it clear since the first day that he Does care....it was just not the right time ...you can not just come and change stuff...you need to prepare laws...you need to prepare ppl... i don t know why he chose the period that J.Chirac was in morocco to make those changes but there must be a good political reasons....but all i know is those changes were meant to be...he just didn t decide that bin nhar ou lila ....he is aware that we need those changes ...he is aware that he needs to make those changes if wants to keep his position ...rah machi mekelekh....bon gotta run to class dude....one thing yes the education is the key...but wich one ...if you think the way you think your kids are probably gonna ( more or less think the same) so are we gonna move forwards with ppl who teach their kids that anissaou nakissatou dinin wa 3akl....c est un cercle vicieux....lah ikherejna menou 3la khir ou safi....
·

7:55 am    October 14, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
80
IF EVERYONE OS UF TEACHES HIS OWN KIDS WE WILL HAVE A BETTER SOCIETY, SO WE DON`T HAVE TO WAIT FOR SOMEBODY WHO CALLS HIM SELF AMOR ALMOU2MININE, TO MAKE RULES FOR US , KNOWING THAT HE KNOW NOTHING ABOUT HOW WOMEN SUFFER IN HIS COUNTRY, WHY DIDN`T HE DO THAT BEFORE? HE DIDN`T CARE, AND STILL DOESN`T CARE, WHY IS IT 7ETTA JJA CHIRAC 3AD DAR HADECHI? IT MEANS THAT HE IS OBLIGED BACH YDIROU , MACHI DAROU 7IT KAYEBGHI LE3YALATE...

WE ALL HAVE MOTHERS SISTERS AUNTS, AND SOON WE WILL HAVE WIVES (GHIR WE7DDA MATFEHMOUNICH GHALA6) INCHALLAH, AND WE NEED TO EDUCATE THEM , CAUSE AS I SAID BEFORE WOMEN ARE SCHOOL , AND THEY ARE THE ONES WHO RAISE THE FUTURE GENERATIONS , SO IF THEY ARE UNEDUCATED HOW WOULD YOU EXPECT THEM TO WELL EDUCATE THEIR KIDS....

EDUCATION IS THE KEY

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7:51 am    October 14, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
79
Oasienne,
dakechi lhadra jabtou, someone mentioned it so we talked about it.
will God punish us cause the age is now 18, i don`t know, but i`m sure who ever made dicision will be asked why, he might tell him i gave you my Quran to follow, but you didn`t ....,
makhessnach nkhaliw allah fetti9ar, 7it yla derna hakkak, tahoua radi ykhalina wmayedihach fina,
le3yalate dazou felm7ayen, kayna i agree dazou felm7ayen , wmazel kaydouzou w mazal radi ydouzou, la raison hia manque d`education, wrjal madazouch wmazal kaydouzou belm7ayen dial le3yalate, ha tewkal ha s7our, ha hadi hahada...,
had rajel lli khalla lemrra lli khedmat 3liih, w koulchi wemcha tjewej bemrra wa7dakhrra telwate 3liih, la faute rah machi ghir dialou bou7dou, macheftouch hadick lli tjewej biha? malah machi mrra ,malha mafekratch bi2annaha katehdem lbayt dial mrra wa7da oukhra...,

Lmouhim, I do think it is better for men and women all together to have education, and i think that even 18 is young for a girl or a guy to get married, BUT I WOULDN`T DO WHAT M6 DID, instead of that , i would educate people, so they will make that decision them selves, without changing God`s word, Educate women so instead of her goin to lmucha3weed, she will go and ask a scholar about her rights, Educate Men and teach them that they are not superior to women, The problem is that we find men who treat their daughters badly so they get used to it, and they tell them that they have to do whatever their husbands tell them...

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7:43 am    October 14, 2003

abdelilah message
78
There is no problem in raising the age of marriage to 18 but the irony a bba Ali is that those who were demanding that were also encouraging giving condoms to high school and college kids (hello, did you say 15?). So if a kid is a kid then sex should not be encouraged for this age whether halal or haram. They seem to be having problem with the halal part.
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7:32 am    October 14, 2003
Ali
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70
Dear oasienne:

"Une femme marocaine fatigu?e ",
I feel your pain. Do not give up the fight. There are 15.7 million women in Morocco and (1.5B)/2= 750 million Muslim women worldwide. Islam has not progressed enough to let you ladies enjoy life to your fullest extent.

Women are the key to change in any society. Keep it up. We love you and we are with you. I have a mother, sisters, ants, etc...I am fighting for them and I need all the help I can get.

Jazzakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam reply

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7:22 am    October 14, 2003
Ali
76
75
continued...

7. Islam was written so that it can adapt to changing times. Our Muslim leaders (if we can call them that) have failed us miserably for so long. The Majority of the Moroccan's I have talked to, agree that the king M6 decisions as far as the 18 year age limit, the divorce law, the polygamy law, and the property laws to benefit women are long due. Why, because everyone of us has a story or grow up seeing the injustices that our sisters, ants, cousins, mothers, grandmas have seen.

8. Just a historical perspective: 1500 years after Christianity, Martin Luther of Germany created the Protestant movement (He protested the church's doctrine. On Oct. 31, 1517). This led to the creation of a more liberal Protestant denomination of Christianity. As you know, it's almost 1424 hijri, and I do think that Islam is going in that direction as well. I am seeing that we have a lot of "Protestant Muslims" who are fed up with the "Fundamentalist Muslims" who have Hijacked Islam to make it something bad

Jazzakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

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7:22 am    October 14, 2003
Ali
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74
continued...

4. We need more educated Moroccan women. Because they are ultimately going to be mothers. And their kids will need help with math, chemistry, French, etc..and the mother (and the father) will be there to help. which will produce more educated kids, and the evolution and progress happens

5. It's good to have people who keep some checks and balances between the need to change and the need to balance that change with where a society is at a given time. Religious people are good when they "slow down" decisions, so that a society is healthy. Religious people are bad when they "completely stop" decisions that 95% of the Ummah sees as necessary to move forward

6. In engineering, if there's a problem in a machine, you fix it so that the machine continues to function so that you move on with your business, otherwise your business competitors will leave you in the dust

continued...

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7:21 am    October 14, 2003
Ali
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64
Dear Aziz, MB, oasienne, bcoolaschid, and Negotiator:

1. It's very clear that we all agree that yes Islam gave rights to women. The problem is these rights are either not enforced or need to be changed to align Islam with the 21st century realities.

2. The people who continuously object to simple things like raising the age of marriage from 15 to 18 years are either completely closed to the fact that so many Moroccan girls have been abused by their Father and the Old man they are "sold" to for marriage by a "misguided" Imam, or they are unwilling to realize that educating woman is very essential to the progress of any nation.

3. Today's people want clear laws written in a clear language: example: Both Moroccan men and women are not allowed to get married by LAW until the age of 18. This means I do not care if you are a Moroccan Berber, Arab, Muslim, bahai, Christian, Jew, riffi, etc...You are not allowed to marry until the age of 18. Any violators will be subject to 5 years of jail. Anybody can quote any unverifiable Hadeeth and tries to justify and confuse this law will be subject to the full extent of the law.

continued...

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7:11 am    October 14, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
73
66
They can play with men`s Hearts, kimma kangoulou beddarija, kayreddouhoum khwatem fseb3anhoum....
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7:10 am    October 14, 2003
DimaRaja
72
"la raison est plus pragmatique.C'est parce que les femmes en ont marre de ces discussions"


-Comment le sais tu, alors que tu ne representes qu'une femme parmis 15 millions ? :)
En general, les femmes marocaines sont aussi ignorantes que les hommes.
C'est ce qui nous fait marocains, en partie... lol

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7:03 am    October 14, 2003
mghribi
71
wach kayne chi khbar 3la 3AWD LILE?? chi jadide oulla walou rahe 3yina mantssanawe..
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6:55 am    October 14, 2003
oasienne
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Ali: la raison est plus pragmatique.C'est parce que les femmes en ont marre de ces discussions , elles savent que ce qu'? fait M6 est bien et qu'il n'y a rien a discuter mais tout ? gagner pour elle dans cette r?forme.Y en a marre d'entendre des types ?tre contre tout mouvement de changement sous pretexte que dieu l'a voulu ainsi.

Une femme marocaine fatigu

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6:02 am    October 14, 2003
Ali
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Dear bcoolaschid:

Thanks for the reassurance about being a good Muslim with a heart. I mean no harm what so ever. Concerning the lack of woman participation in this debate, as you know, I respond to ideas put forward by internet users with Nicknames. I do not know who is man, who is women, who is Christian, Muslim or Jew, or Hindu,etc...What counts is the good discussions in this forum.

The internet is a very good medium because if we were all in the same room debating these issues, you know that half of us will have Fatwas on our heads for questioning our religion and trying to understand it better. We are all here debating real issues of the 21st century that our Muslim leaders have failed to use Ijtihaad to solve for us.

Hopefully if some of them are reading these forums, they will wake up and smell the coffee and they should know that with them or without them people will evolve.

Concerning where are the females on this board, it's very simple: The number of illiterate Moroccan women is twice the rate of that of men. That's why more males are in this forum. Also, the majority of people in this board are living abroad. Very few women are allowed (by family) to leave Morocco for a foreign land.

Jazzakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

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5:46 am    October 14, 2003
Ali
68
49
Dear Negotiator:

The reason why I said women represent 50% of Moroccans (or Muslims) is a fact. There are about 30 million Moroccans. about 15.7 million of those Moroccan's are females and the rest is males. That's what I meant by 50%.

And because of the fact that in many situations in the Islamic faith woman is given only half the what the male gets, two women are needed to testify, etc...that means that the actual representation is 50%/2=25%. Simple math!

Jazzakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

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5:39 am    October 14, 2003
Ali
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48
Dear Negotiator,

The reason why I agree with the fact that a girl and a boy under the age of 18 should not be allowed to marry, is plain and simple: They need to be in school studying and educationg themselve.

You know that by the time you are 18, you are still trying to pass the BAC exams in Casablanca. That's why, we as adults who know what marriage and kids are and what they involve, it's important not to let these kids get involved in marriage before they finish their education.

Also, you and I know exactly what happens when you have a rich male dude who abandons his wife to go get married to a 17 years old, have sex with her for a year, and then dumps her.

The age of 18 is internationally agreed on worldwide that it's a good age where boys and girls are mature enough to know what's the meaning of education, work, marriage, kids, responsibility, etc...That's why they can make decisions that they are responsible for.

They are not minors anymore. And yes, specifically for the girl, she is now mature enough to be able to say NO to her MALE or FEMALE relatives who try to force her to marry somebody she does not want.

You see, no contradiction. Just 21st century logic to help Muslims understand that Islam is still intact.


Jazzakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

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4:45 am    October 14, 2003
mb
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61
nego,
what does "adhabou lilloubbi arrajoul" mean??
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1:00 am    October 14, 2003
oasienne
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MB:100% agree with you.
How many women in morrocan soent their youth for a guy, were working like slaves outside and inside home to hear at the end: anti talek! three times, ou tji chi wa7da khra tlwi 3la rajel.
I heard thse stories a lot in the rural and urban areas as well.Ou khelli 3lik ha douk li kay rmihoum rajel bla ryal la jouj.
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12:49 am    October 14, 2003
oasienne
64
42
wa da ba a negotiator ach jab hadchi l hadra? bghtii nraj3ou lour?Do you think that god will put us in hell because the age of marriage is now 18? or because we need a court to pronounce a divorce?Do you really think that god will bea ngry for that?
Come on khlliw 3likoum allah f ti9ar!
Rabbi kbir ou 3aref lm7aine li dazou menha el mrawates f l'blad.
Rha t3yaw ma thadrou, all women will be happy for this reform, kayn guir men who will continue to discuss to discuss.
By the way about polygamy, i am not sur that my old neighbour( he was 65) who married a young girl of 16 was thinking about god and the holy coran if you see what i mean.
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10:14 pm    October 13, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
63
Adnane,
I don`t think any body here in Raioo knows the Quran by Heart or the hadiths or the chari3a, and doens`t why we should not be saying that this hadith is not sa7i7 or this ayah has another tafssir if we don`t know for sure, just like this hadith about na9issat 3a9lan wa dinan, it is a sa7i7 in muslim and boukhari...

regarding the other hadith :
( man sanna sunnatan 7assanatan, falahou ajrouha wa ajrou man 3amila biha ila yawmi al9iyamah, waman sanna sunnatan sayi2atan, fa3alayhi wizrouha wa wizrou man 3amila biha ila yawmi al9iyamah)
he might as well fall in either one of the categories!!!! if it is sunnah 7assanah, good for him , if it is sunnah say2iah , allah yeghfer liih weljami3 almuslimine.
khaliwnni nemchi nen3ass rah faye9 bekri...

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10:03 pm    October 13, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
62
Suite:
it is closer to be explained that arrasoul(PBUH) kan met3ajjeb kifach had le3yalat, kayghelbou rjalhoum, wakhha normalement rjal kaykounou ghalbeen, so to show them the wisdom of Allah , that he can bring power from weakness and weakness from power, the power of weak women, controlling powerfull men to become weak infront of them, and in this he continues and tell women that If God gave you this power over men , BE CAREFUL ON USING IT, AND DON`T USE IT IN THE BAD DIRECTION, so the brain is the same women like men , other wise God wouldn`t give the responsibility of kids to women, and this is only in case of chahadah so it is a specific case and not something that is always there, cause we saw a lot of intellegent women that were better than men...
When they asked him about na9issat din he said THAT IT IS ONLY WHEN WOMEN ARE IN THEIR PERIODS THAT THEY CAN`T FAST AND PRAY AND TURN AROUNF THE KAABA, SO IT IS ONLY MOMENTARILY NOT EVERLASTING, The conclusion is that :
na9ss al3a9l can be phisically,( wich need proof) or can be just momentarily , when women are pregnant, or giving birth, or when they have their periods, they can be grampy and not using their brain 100%, and we should all agree that women do think with their heart more than their brain.., which is not something bad.
na9issat dine, meaning they don`t fast as much as men do IN RAMADAN, and they don`t pray as much as men do , which is not their falut , it is because of their body`s needs..,
7acha bach ygoul rassoul(PBUH) chi 7aja lli makaynach..,
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10:00 pm    October 13, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
61
Regarding the hadith(yes t is a hadith) and it is in sa7i7 alboukhari and sa7i7 muslim , here it is :
the prophet on a day of feast(aladha or alfi6r) was in almadina and he was walking besides the women in almussallah, so he told them ( ya ma3chara annissa2 ma ra2aytou min na9issati 3a9lin wa dinin adhaba liloubbi arrajouli min i7dakounna,) so they asked him ( wamanou9ssanou 3a9lina wa dinina) he replied( alayssa chahadatou almar2ati mitlou nissfi chahadati arrajoul? they said yes, so he said( fadalika min nou9ssani 3a9liha, then he said ( alyassa idda 7adat(PMS) la toussali walam tassoum? ) they said yes, so he said ( dalika min nou9ssani diniha)
there are 13 pages to explain this hadith, i`ll try to give you as much as i can, First this hadith was givven in an EID so the prophet will not make women feel like they are inferior to men in this happy day, and the women that were there were from alanssar, welanssariyate kanou bezzaf menhoum ghalbiin 3la rjalhoum, dakechi lach gal anahoum adhabou lilloubbi arrajoul, so this is not 7ukm 3amm,
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9:20 pm    October 13, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
60
Mb ma7a66 3liik ma walou, yla bghiti maneb9ach njawbek ghir gouliha lia,
Regarding marriage, she had to wait until he converts to islam to marry him, and i`m sure when he converted he became better than most of us if not all.
Regarding Porc, instead of going bach nejtahdou wach 7ram wella lla, and it is clear, that it is 7aram, we should go do some reasearches to see why it was forbidden for us, like what the west did....,
IF, IF , IF , la vache foll is an illness, there were some illnesses amongst animals in the era of our prophet(PBUH) why din`t he forbids them? because they were just illnesses , but the cas of porc it is not an illness it is some thing that is in their body for ever..., by the way kayen wa7ed lhadith kaygoul ( inna law tafta7ou 3amala achay6an..) so we shouldn`t be saying if, if ,if....
koun kan lkoun ykoun koun ga3ma ykoun had lkoun....(^_^)
Regarding the heritage, Allah knows better, so i would go with the Quran and not try to change it, cause God created me and he knows better than me,
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8:53 pm    October 13, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
59
Nego, I admit I do not know prophet mohammed complete Ahadath and sunna. I do not know shari3a and fiqh by heart. So I am no expert. But I am lways intrigued by some simple hadith of prophet Mohammed tht burst with wisdom, vision and practicality. One o them was mentioned in the discussion of "Israel strikes in Syria" post 146 by Rasa Garcia: "mn sanna sounnatan 7assanatan falhou ajrouha il yamialqiyaati". I congratulate King M6 and whoever was involved in this decision because they may well fall in the ategory of people referred to in the Hadith.


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8:15 pm    October 13, 2003
mb
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Nego,
rak 7at 3liya...on dirait mon prof d education islamike kand j etais au college:)))) eh ben oui aussi chokand ke cela puisse te paraitre oui khassna nejtahdou meme sur le fait que le porc est 7ram....moi je pense que si l isalm etaient venu a l epoke de la vache folle ben il auarait 7erem le beef aussi....mais bon tu trouveras surement qqch a redire a ca comme d hab....
oui on devrait revoir la question d heritage....car elle est tt a fait injuste (mais ca j en ai deja parle donc je vais pas revenir la dessus)...tu as dis ds un des posts ke les femmes nakissatou dinin wa 3akl wach tu es conscient de ce ke tu dis...dieu ...le grand ...le bon ...le dieu k on connait.....a dit ke au fait les hommes sont superieurs aux femmes??????? k il a au fait cree deux etres en creant un ki est capable de plus de dine et de 3akl....et tt ca de facon deliberee???? donc...moi ce ke je comprends c est que dieu est injuste ( je ne le dis pas ..je deduis seulement ca par ce ke tu viens de dire..) alors ds tt ca la question pkoi je vais ne3bed ce dieu ki est au fait injuste???!!!! au fait le trucs de nakissatou dinin wa 3akl c est un 7adit ou ca vient du coran ..??? si c est un 7adith ...rah je pense k on devrait revoir ces 7adith et s ils ont ete modifie par les gens??? c est une possibilites aussi..
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7:57 pm    October 13, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
57
MB,
Again you are saying something that is not in it`s place, you said God said that we should do the ijtihad, yes i agree, but you know what is ijtihad??? according to you there is no ijtihad any more and we just take things as they were and that`s it,
First of all Ijtihad is still until now, BUT you only can make Ijtihad IF THE MATTER THAT YOU ARE KATEJTAHED FIHA IS NOT MENTIONED BY THE QURAN OR AHADITH, so if there is a 7ukm in the Quran or in the hadith about something we CANNOT NEJTAHDOU FIHA, BECAUSE THE MATTER IS SETTLED,
listen to this ayates : ( houa alladi anzala 3alayka alkitaba minhou ayatoun mou7kamatoun hunna oummou alkitab, wa oukharou moutachabihatoun, famma alladina fi 9ouloubihoum zayroun fayattabi3ouna ma tachabah minhou, ibtigha2a alfitnati wabtigha2a ta2wilih, wa maya3lamou ta2wilahou illa alahou,. wa rrasikhouna fil3ilmi ya9oulouna aamanna bihi koulloun min 3indi rabbina wa ma yaddakarou illa oulou al2albab)
SO THERE IS AYATES THAT ARE OUMM ALKITAB RASSIKHAT, YOU CANNOT CHANGE OR IJTAHED FIHOUM, PERIOD,
Like (7ourimat 3alaykoumou almaytatou waddamou wa la7mou alkhinzir..) wach khassna nejtahdou bach nreddou lkhanzir 7alal? OR ( WASSARI9OU WASSARI9ATOU FA96A3OU YDIYAHOUMA JAZA2AN BIMA KASSABA NAKALAN MINA ALLAHI WALLAHOU 3AZIZOUN 7AKIM) you can`t say well it is the 21st century this shouldn`t be applied now,
(youssikoumou aalahou fi awladikoum liddakari mitlou 7addi al2ountayayn..) you can`t say well i want to give my daughter the same as her brother, other wise you will be among those lli gal rebbi fi 9ouloubihoum zayroun.
Look how arrasikhouna fil3ilmi say it is all from Allah, we believe in it, and we who know nothing we still argue , why should my daughter get half of what my son gets..
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7:26 pm    October 13, 2003
mb
56
51
i lived in both europe and us...and let me tell you one thing fine nbanou a cote
...they are independant ...which is the most important thing ever....maitresse de leur propre destinee...more secure too...they have to work even if they are married and have kids ?? so what?!!! u never know what tomorrow is made of...u gotta work for your own security and your kids security anyway...they have to clean the house and cook after work.!!! they don t really have to do that alone ...their husbands help....or no !!!!muslims are so macho that they can not do "women s work"....
u said:
Don't you think that thier societies enslave them in a bad way by giving them too many " Rights"?
chouf in our moroccan society rah on est pire ke des slaves....houma au moins elles ont des droits ..7na ni droit ni rien ...on est traitee comme la pire des espece ...attends c est pas au maroc k on dit "lemra 7achak"....????????.on dit k apprendre une langue normalement c est apprendre a connaitre la culture aussi ...wa ghir analyze moi ce petit echantillons de notre bel arabe dialectales:)))) et mets ca en relief avec la cultures et donne moi ton avis sur la conclusion.....
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4:07 pm    October 13, 2003

Aziz Bezza message
55
53
Hello mb
I totally agree with you, a lot of people in our world believe that we have the koran to organize our life and that's it, No more thinking No more research and everybody has to abide by the law of Allah, because it's ultimate and 100% true.
It's like if one reads the koran is considered knowledgeable about all matters of life therefore anybody else who trie to make sense is hallucinating.
We need to protect our religion by keeping it out from the front line just like the west. or at least create some harmony in linking religion to morals.
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2:22 pm    October 13, 2003
mb
54
for those who say that the islam is sale7 likouli zaman wa makan....i agree with you ..it is ....but it is sale7 likouli zaman wa makan if and only if there is ijtihad ....but we don t ...there is no ijtihad anymore...we just take it as it was...and we have to change (improve) stuff...ijtihad was allowed by god for this in order to make islam last ...in order to make it work everywhere and at any time....7na ghir chefna dik kouli zaman wa makan ou 7na nferhou...on adore le tt prets
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2:15 pm    October 13, 2003
mb
53
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Nego, sorry again if i confused tradition and religion....but hey we only learn from our mistakes...BUT, who said that we have no right to marry a non muslim....that guy that my friend is marrying he became muslim( although i think that he was more muslim than plenty muslims i know)....but she still has to get the authorization of her father and judge....she is 27 years old ..and yet she can decide who she should spend her life with????
and again u talk about divorce....it would be harder for me to get a divorce than for you...so it is not equal...comme disait calimero :) c est pas juste:(
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1:55 pm    October 13, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
52
coreection:
you will never give women more rights than what Allah gave them.

MB I`m Glad you saw that it is not Islam`s fault if the father insist on who his daughter should marry, BUT her Father doesn not have a right to stop her from who she wants to marry, there nothing that says if he doesn`t agree she can`t marry,
here is an ayah that supporst that :
(ya ayyouha alladina aamanou la ya7illou lakoum an taritou annissa2a karhan ,wala ta3doulouhounna ...) surat annissa2.
la ta3doulouhounna means la tamna3ouhounna mina azzawaj, so if a girl wants to marry somebody they can`t stop her from doing so
and this other ayah( wa idda 6ala9toumou nnissa2a fabalaghna ajalahounna fala ta3doulouhounna an yanki7nna azwajahoum ida taradaw baynahoum bilma3rouf..)
as we know some times the father or the mother don`t want to let her daughter remarry her ex-husband cause he divorced her first, so even then they can`t stop her from remarrying him. so please don`t say things about islam that doesn`t exist, we all know that these things are in our society but it is because of our traditions, and not our religion
women have the right to ask for divorce if they don`t want thier husbands, in the era of the prophet(PBUH) someone married his daughter to someone that she didn`t want , so the prophet stoped that marriage. one man was in love with this woman , but she didn`t want him, the prophet came to her and asked her to marry him, she told him is it an order? he (PBUH) said no bal hia chafa3ah, and she said la 7ajata li bih, so even with the prophet`s chafa3ah she didn`t accept, and he didn`t force her.
if he is a non muslim that is a different issue , it is forbidden for us to marry non muslims.

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1:54 pm    October 13, 2003
bcoolaschid
51
Dear Ali,
i ve read all your messages...
Don'i worry !! Ali is a GOOD MUSLIM with a good heart ...who just forget where he comes from and where he belongs to.
Rights should not be given for granted our women must work for them in order to deserve them...
Where are our women?..why they don't say how they feel and what they think ?!! All i see is two guys changing thier openions...
something that bothers me for a long time
i ve been in the usa for almost 3 years and here is my question to you Moroccan ladies who live out of Morocco (EUROPE, USA and CANADA)
Do you really like and appreciate the Western women's life style?
Don't you think that thier societies enslave them in a bad way by giving them too many " Rights"?
they have to have a job even they are MOM, they have to do the cleaning in the house, they have to be sexy and beautiful all the time and and ....
think about it ? and see the irony behind it?
a friend of mine told me once, " in order to get lost you must first know where you re going"
so what happens if you never find out?


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1:35 pm    October 13, 2003
mb
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u are right ....Islam doesn`t allow any body to force any body to marry any body, a woman can marry who ever she pleases ( if and only if the father accepts him)....u are right but...if the father does not agree with that marriage it will not take place ....she needs him to agree...and well....at the end it is not his life...it s hers ....he might be right...maybe the guy is not the right man for his daughter but hey he has no right to stop those two to be together....entre ns that happends to guys too, not only girls...know many guys in morocco who are deeply in love with a girl but can not marry her because the "queen mum" does not really like her, or she is 3roubi he is fassi, she is poor he is rich....so it is not really a religious thing it is more cultural ...lmouhim these changes we need them in order to change those mentalities...khlass on en a marre de ces idees a la c..
oh....one thing ...the worst ever...i have a friend she is marrying a non muslim....she has to get the authorization of her father + the judge....isn t that funny...a complete stranger deciding who you should marry....it is her life ...only her can decide....
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1:34 pm    October 13, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
49
Ali,
how dare you say that the Quran was based on 1500 years old realities??? do you think God didn`t know what was gonna happen after 1500 years?? this ayah might help you out ( ..3alimou alghaybi wachahadah)
so he gave us life and gave us it`s guide(quran) and the Quran will never be old for any time.
If the Quran was written by Men, it doesn`t mean that they wrote whatever they wanted , you should know that it was written in that order , by God`s will, and it wasn`t written until the prophet died, and the prophet wives did not have any input in it, because it simply ONLY GOD`S WORD, nothing else.
The prophet(PBUH) instructed us to be mujtahedeen, well not any body can be mujtahed, you should know the Quran by heart and all the ahadiths, and, and, and.., and there are many scholars to do that. me and you cannot be mujtahideen.
You said women represents 50% of the muslim nation, and you said that i count them only as 25% , i don`t know how you figured that out..., BUT LET ME TELL YOU FOR ME WOMEN DON`T COUNT AS 50% OF THE NATION THEY COUNT MORE THAN THAT, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE ONES WHO RAISE EVERY BODY MEN AND WOMEN, (al2oummou madrassah ida a3dadtaha a3dadta cha3ban 6ayebba al2a3ra9) (wara2a koulli 3adhim imra2ah) so they are more than half the nation...,
see with all your modernity and you don`t give women what they deserve, even the paradise is under the mothers(women) feet, it is not under mine or yours...
you will never give women more rights than the Rights them.
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1:14 pm    October 13, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
48
Regadring your items,
well probably you didn`t know this, but Islam doesn`t allow any body to force any body to marry any body, a woman can marry who ever she pleases and her father , brother, mother or who ever cannot make her marry who they want, if they do it is not islam`s fault it is theirs,

**Did you see how you are contradicting your self ? if not let me show you,
1. A 15 year old girl has no business getting married. She should be in school and wait until at least 18 before marriage
so here you say she can`t marry when she is younger than 18,
2. A 18 years old can Legally marry the man that she wants and loves. He Male relatives have no business dictating to her when and who she can marry
Hnaya you said a male relative HAS NO RIGHT DICTATING TO HER WHEN AND WHO ...,
so on 1) he has the right to tell her when she can get maried and when not, but on 2) he cannot ....
yallah zeyyar chi chouia and give your final answer, can he or can`t he???

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11:28 am    October 13, 2003
Ali
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46
continued...

Finally, to those who seem not to like change, tell us which one of these items are wrong:

1. A 15 year old girl has no business getting married. She should be in school and wait until at least 18 before marriage

2. A 18 years old can Legally marry the man that she wants and loves. He Male relatives have no business dictating to her when and who she can marry

3. The first wife has the right to know if her husband wants to marry another woman before he does and give her signed consent to him. The second wife, has the right to know if the man she is going to marry is married and to whom. She must also give signed consent to the husband. A competent judge must act as a coordinator of this affair and make sure that both wives understand what they are about to do. He must also make sure that husband did not threaten, force, bribe, or did any other trick to get these women to say yes. He must also report to the courts on his financial ability to have more than one wife and kids

4. Once married, all the money that was made from the day of marriage to the day of divorce by both parties, must be divided by TWO: half to the woman and half to the man.

These items are clear and make sense to me! But maybe I am not a "GOOD MUSLIM"!

Jazzakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

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11:28 am    October 13, 2003
Ali
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45

5. Specifically the issue of our Muslim women. They are beautiful. They are intelligent. They are sexy. They are awesome. They are hardworking. They are mothers. They represent 50% of the whole Islamic nation. If you count some of their roles as half, that means you are counting only 25%. If you add to this figure the 50% men, this means that the Islamic Ummah is operating at 25 + 50 = 75% capacity.

6. Let's go for a 100% capacity. Let's bring Islam to the 21st century. Marriage age for man and woman should be at least 18. Polygamy should be disallowed and enforced under modern rules (No more mid-life crises for men, who go after young women, using the usual blinde execuse of: "Schriaa Gave me the right to four wives").


continued....

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11:27 am    October 13, 2003
Ali
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Dear Negotiator:

1. I have read your answers and they are nothing new. You made it very clearly that men before Islam were basically "animals" in the sense that a lion goes to a pride, declares himself king, and sleeps with all the lionesses in the pride until the next dominant male arrives to the scene

2. Humans have something called a brain. This means that we need to think and adjust to new realities. As you know, we use airplanes to go to the USA, Canada, China, etc...We do not use Camels anymore. We have evolved. Airplanes are Halal. We can go from Mecca to Jerusalem and back in less than 4 hours. It's not a miracle anymore.

3. The Koran was written 1500 years ago, based on 1500 years realities. Yes it's a Marvelous piece of work. Let's not forget that it was written by "99% MEN" with inputs from some of the prophet's wives. Somebody might reasonably argue with you about many aspects of what the Koran says and believe me it's a debate on its own.

4. My point here is that our prophet (PBUH) gave us some opinions about how to deal with some real issues facing the Muslim world. He also instructed us to be "Mojtahedeen". This means use "Ijtihaad" to change Islam and interpretations of the Koran to adjust with changing times in order to stay healthy. Remember that we go to the doctor for treatment when we are sick. We do not just sit there and say "Aahh, I believe in Allah and if he wants me dead, I will die".

continued...

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10:35 am    October 13, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
44
For those who think that the ayah for witnessing is unjust,
surat annour( walladina yarmouna azwajahoum walam yakoun lahoum chouhada2ou illa anfoussahoum, fachahadatou a7adihim arba3ou chahadatin billahi innahou lamina assadi9in, walkhamissatou an la3nata allahi 3alayhi in kana mina alkadibin, wayadra2ouu 3anha al3adaba an tachhada arba3a chahadatin billahi innahou lamina alkadibin, walkhamissatou anna ghadaba allahi 3alayha in kana mina assadi9in)
so you can see very clear here that they are the same, she gets 5 chahadate and he gets 5 chahadate,

Regarding Al2irt, and to those who says it is unfair or unjust to give the son twice what the daughter gets,
beofre Islam dai=ughters used to get nothing, Only sons get what their fathers left and ONLY if they are capable of going to war if they are not they give it to their uncles, so before Islam if aman dies and leave a son an a daughter who are still young, they will get nothing,and the wife will get nothing if they have an uncle he will get every thing including his brother`s wife, so Islam came and put justice in their and gave daughters and wives the right to herite form their fathers and husbands,
some one mentioned that the wife doesn`t get any thing, no she gets 1/4 if she doesn`t have a son, if she does she gets 1/8 , you need to read surat annissa2 and read the tafassir to see that God is (al3alim al7akim)
(SWT) said ( aaba2oukoum wa abna2oukoum la tadrouna ayouhoum a9rabou lakoum naf3an faridatan mina allahi inna allaha KANA 3ALIMAN 7AKIMAN)
and who ever wants to change this law( ALI ) and do his OWN ( fa9ad dalama nafssah)

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10:00 am    October 13, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
43
Suite
Nissaou naqissatou din... and that's because they don't fast all of ramadan? yalatif yalatif 3la interpretation (no you Nego but whoever told you or whoever you read).. Ramadan is not just about fating from food, it is bout fasting from folloing your dark side.
Answer:
he he he da7aktini wellah gallek interpretaion, wakhouya i just said how the prophet(PBUH) explainesd it , cause when he said that, people asked him why are they na9issat din, he said it is because they don`t pray when they have their periods ...., so in the quantity they miss some days of praying(makayredouhoumch) and they miss some days of fasting(kayredouhoum) machi 7it ddin dialhoum na9ess a3oudou billah, and i don`t see where you saw me saying that fasting is only from food??? and guess what they get rewarded for fasting the same as we do even if they don`t fast 30 days like we do, so isn`t that justice...,

That hadith, if it is true should be invstigted in he ontext durin which it was told. If thereis no context, we should strikethrough it. reply
answer:
it was investigated and was put with ahadith sa7i7a..., so we don`t need to do it again 9waste of time)


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9:54 am    October 13, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
42
Naqissatou 3aqlin... because two women are needed to witness (basically two women count as one witness) .. this is the mother of unjustice unless there was very specific circumstancs when the "hadith sa7i7" was told.
Answer:
No they count as two witnesses, not one so don`t think that two women equal 1 man, It is not injustice, it is the Quran who says it , and the prophet approves it by this 7adith.

I am having HARD times imaging the prophet or God conider that 2 women make 1 witness.
Answer:
*Again if you trust every thing in the Quran it shouldn`t be hard to imagine that God said so, and AGAIN 2 women don`t make 1 witness, the ayah states that some one should bring 2 men to witness, or if there isn`t two men he needs a man and 2 women,
as Ibn rouchd said (asslouhoum wa7id illa an yatbouta fidalika char3oun), for example witnessing, and we see that women get rewarded as men, they get punished as men...,

I wish the prophet were to ome back to give us more explanations, and maybe een change ome aspects of Islam that would solve many problems nowadays.
Answer:
If you need explanations you can read what he left us , cause i`m sure you didn`t, cause i did find the explanation . and it made a lot of sense to me.

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9:25 am    October 13, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
41
Ali,
Akhouya, almost all your messages speaks about SEX, do you think about any other thing than SEX? polygamy is not about satisfying your desires, because if it was that way God would have let Men marry as many as they want , just like before Islam when men used to have 10 wives and slaves that they can have sex with any time they want, When Islam came it limited the number to 4(why 4 allahou a3lam) first of the reasons because there were a lot of wars, and women were left with no husbands no brothers no fathers, so they needed somebody to take care of them , so instead of having them as slaves and have sex with them any ways , God made it legal so these women can be wives instead of slaves. did you know that before islam women were considered a heritage , when the man dies his son will herite every thing he had even his mother she would be a slave in his house, his sisters as well, SO Allah gave men the right to marry more than one YES BUT again i say it for the xxx time , ONLY IF YOU THINK YOU WILL TREAT THEM EQUALY, AND THERE IS NO MAN IN THIS EARTH WHO CAN TREAT 2 WOMEN EQUALY....

Laws, Laws , laws, you think this law would be applied on rich men and women?? or on the royal family or the , or , or,... ? i don`t think so when law is made by a human being(man) he will always think about him self, and he will change it whenever he wwant to, one can break the law without thinking that they`ll put him in Jail for that cause he knows he can give rashoua and get out of it, BUT when one says in his mind if i break Allah`s Laws i will not be able to give rashoua to escape the punishment, IT would be different, so I think if one fears God he will never do any thing that will cost him a punishment from God...,

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8:38 am    October 13, 2003
oasienne
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36
we ghir women who can get lost? what is this sexism?Malkoum jntouma rajjalla vous ?tes une race sup?rieure, quand on vous donne la libert? vous savez quoi en faire et vous en usez mod?r?ment?
Wallahila kayne ghir Ali li ghadi el kouddam.Ne me dite pas que c'est le fait d'augmenter l'age du mariage qui va faire de nous de mauvais musulmans!Cette r?forme ?tait nec?ssaire pour toutes les femmes du maroc qui souffrent et dieu sait qu'il y en a beaucoup!!!
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8:25 am    October 13, 2003
Ali
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Dear Toc:

It seems that we agree on the following:

1. If the law says an 18 year or older girl wants to marry a man, from the legal point of view she can do it without her "MALE" in the home permission

2. It's nice (but NOT mandatory) for this girl to let her Mom, Dad, and brothers and sisters know that she wants to get married before she does.

Now, we have solved a problem that should have been solved 200 years ago.

Next, let's deal with Polygamy! so that this 18 years old does not have to deal with a husband with multiple SEX partners using the misinterpretations of the Koran to fantasize with many women at the same time!

Let's outlaw Polygamy all together! or better yet, let allow a woman to marry up to four husbands so that her sexual desires are satisfied and other lonely man, widowed man, shy man, divorced man will be able to enjoy the God given right to sex and happiness.

I think that Muslim women are very sex and they should share this gift with other unfortunate men out there who otherwise will have no women in their life. Islam is for justice! Let's live up to that ideal!

Jazzakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

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7:41 am    October 13, 2003
toc
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33
et comme je l'ai d?j? dis, le mariage implique deux familles aussi!!

qui pense aux enfants qui vont venir!!? pourront-ils voir leurs grands parents!!? ou ? cause d'un manque de consid?ration leur parents les en ont priv?!!?
ces enfants pourront-ils voir un jour leur famille toute r?unie!!?

salam

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7:35 am    October 13, 2003
toc
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33
mais justement t'aimerai qu'elle te pr?vienne quand m?me!! pour que tu puisses lui donner queqlues conseils!!!
les parents n'ont pas besoin d'affirmer leur autorit? ( quoique il y en a qui le font), ils ont juste besoin de se sentir encore utiles dans la vie de leur enfant, m?me s'il est devenu un homme ou une femme!!

de voir qu'il y a une reconnaissance envers eux qui ont tant fait pour cet enfant!!!
tu sais, on peut tr?s bien leur demander leur avis aux parents!!! et m?me s'ils sont contre!! on peut les convaincre petit ? petit!!!
mieux que de leur dire: votre avis ne compte pas pour moi et je fais ce que je veux!!!
c'est cet aspect l? dont je voulais parler!!!

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7:30 am    October 13, 2003
The Man In The Moon
36
I was glad to know about those reforms. I do agree Our King, That Women should get their rights, But I also was thinking That Those reforms may have a bittersweet outcome for women. As the article above says that an impoverished country where one out of two is illiterate. And we all know that most of our women back home are illiterate. To me Our women need education, then by educating them we will free them. Also, I hope that our women take advantage of those reforms and try to prove that they are as equal as men. Cos Personally, I don't wanna see our moroccan women lost without an identity. Yes, Freedom is good but too much of it, may cause the opposite.
God Bless us all
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7:27 am    October 13, 2003
toc
35
salam!!

le hadith qu'a cit? 'negociator' est un hadith sahih!!!
et il est valable dans toute ciconstance!!!
quand on dit une femme est 'na9issatou 3a9L' ?a ne veut pas dire qu'elle ne peut pas prendre de d?cision!! sa d?cision elle peut la prendre mais il faut savoir que la femme est tr?s impulsive par rapport ? l'homme, ce qui a ?t? prouv? par des recherches psychologiques, et c'est cette impulsivit? qui rend sa d?cision moins objective!!!
par contre en ce qui concerne 'na9issatou dine'
c'est parceque la femme, ne je?ne pas le ramadan, et ne fait pas ses pri?res pendant ses r?gles!!!
ce qui fait que par rapport ? l'homme elle en fait moins!!!en quantit? biens?r!! en qualit? dieu seul sait!!!

salam!!!

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7:24 am    October 13, 2003

abdelilah message
34
I want to add something here related to the issue of allowing the girl to marry without the approval of the father. At first sight, it appears a gesture to give women their independence from 'male' hegemony. Well, it is not the case at all because it is only a transfer of power from the man in the family (the father) to the MAN in the court (Judge) w yahbibi lehle ywerreeek the man of the court. Politically speaking, it is simply a transfer of power to the judiciary branch as a knock out against one of the fircest competitors of the state throughout history:the family.
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6:46 am    October 13, 2003
Ali
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Dear Toc,

If the Law states that a girl can get married at the age of 18 without her "MALE" approval, then that is the law. My daughter will have the right to marry without telling me (yes I will be very disappointed, but I know I will love her anyways).

The only difference in my argument is that I "PREFER" her to let me know before her final decision, so that I can give her some "FATHERLY" advice.

By the way, if you have an open relationship with your daughter, you should be getting advanced warnings about who she is interested in marrying, fianc?e, or early "dating" .

I know it's taboo to talk about sex with daughters and sisters in the Muslim world. Let me tell you this, times have changed, girls use the internet, girls wear Hijab in front of a father or brother who forced her to use Hijab, and guess what? the minute she is out of the house, the Hijab goes in the bag and she is back to the realities of the 21st century.

Again, If I were the King, marriage should be illegal for both man and woman until the age of 22 (by 18 years you get a BAC degree, 4 years later you get la license). This way both men and women get educated.

I am amazed that this is the 21st century and we "Sorry Muslims" are still debating 2 trivial matters: 1. a 15 year old girl is a child, her breasts are still growing, her sexual identity is still maturing, she is not a fresh Lamb that we can eat. 2. Hijab is NOT necessary. dressing modestly is the key. Let's move on with Islam, enough road block to Islam's progress.

Jazzakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

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6:28 am    October 13, 2003
toc
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27
bonjour!!

tu as dis toi m?me:

"Let me know who and when they want to marry!!!"

? ce que je sache la nouvelle moudawanna n'a pas fait de clause sp?ciale pour ?a!!!
si la fille veut se marier qu'elle le fasse, elle n'est pas oblig? de pr?venir qui que ce soit!!!

tu trouves ?a normal!? faynha etterbiya lli rebbawha walidiha!!
faynou l assl dialha!!!
wella wellina kanbi3ou w nechriw!! l bent ma b9At 3endha 9ima!!!

le mariage n'implique pas que les deux personnes!!! c'est une alliance entre les deux familles!!!

salam!


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2:40 am    October 13, 2003
zineb
31
Salam alaikoum to all,

Antr no comment ?hehehe As for the reforms in Morocco, I think that in order to change and evolve we need more then laws?. We need a change within ourselves. Women are responsible for their own situation too. They do play a great part in this; they are the mothers, the source where we get our first lessons in life. They should teach their children how to give and get respect, and more important: that men and women are different but equal!!! I just wonder how the king will change the mentalities of his people?? Islam has given us both men and women rights and responsibilities, we should be very careful no to take example from western societies where feminism has made life for us women more difficult by telling us we should act like men and fight them in order to be treated like them?. Women in the west have may have more rights on paper but the fact is they still are being exploited and underpaid among other things?. Moroccan women need to get up and fight for their rights without loosing their culture and their religion. We need to understand that Islam is being misunderstood and misused in order to give men more power then they can handle, the proof look at our country today any idiot can have more then one wife, easily get a divorce and abandon his children?leaving a whole family in poverty without any future??.A woman can argue with a man but not against God?s will so they keep us ignorant and we keep believing we were made to serve and obey.
-We are different and we are made to complete each other no to compete with each other . To those who believe a woman is only half a man I would say that a woman gave you life in the first place so is she is only half a human being what does that make you? Even with half a brain one can still think better then a whole empty brain! Salam.

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10:57 pm    October 12, 2003

Antr McShaddad (Yahia.L) message
30
Without doubt we live in a conflit withing ourselves.
on one hand we try to use our intellect to demonstrate logically how things work, on the other hand we are blocked by religious doctrines wich contradict the common sense...

for exemple :
A girl does not inherit as much as her brother, supposedly because she will
marry a man, who supposedly should provide her with what she needs.
in the mean time, a widdow who has no kids, is not allowed to inherit what her husband left. as if, it is sure that she will have the chance to marry a second man who would provide her with everything etc...etc...(I wonder if the same law applies to man by the way...?"

and what if the widdow doesnt get married again? Especially when we know that a divorced or none virgin women in general are not very desired in a muslim society.
Taking into consideration the above, how can such a woman be happy ?
You can not convince that you can fix a cracked plate by hitting it with a hummer, it is just out of my range of understanding ...
just as you cann't convince me that a camel can cross the Atlantic swiming on his back.

The otherday I was talking with a friend who "supports" polygamy for no other reason but because it is mentioned in the Coran.
I told him and what if your sister's husband would marry a second woman ?
his reply was "well, if my sister would marry a married man, at least that's better than remaining single !" , an tricky unswer wich did not unswer my original question.
And why ruining the life of a married woman, but bringing into the house a competitor ? Shouldn't that man be accountable for such act ?

I think many radical muslims as well as traditional ones are very fixed with SEX ! A woman wearing jeans is a whore, a man wearing shorts is a gay, Ibliss, Loth or what ever...
If a muslim gets worked up by staring at a man's calves, then he better seek medical help...he should not stare at anybody's legs in the first place.
Likeways, if a man turns into a dinosaur just by looking at woman's hair, then
Rebbi Li 3alem what fantazies go through his head when he is alone. :)
A person who's mind functions properly, doesn't have
to think about SEX eachtime a cat shouts "MIAW".
Labeling the woman as the beast who projects sex all the time as to mislead men, is a tactic used to incriminize women. in other words, women would be evil by default.
Can you poeple think of your mothers as beasts just because she would not wear hijab ?
remember "L'Habit ne fait pas le moine" kif galou franssiss.
Forcing women to wear Hijab implies that no woman's should fly airplanes
(planes have pedales too, and a woman pilot cann't have hijab), no woman should do practical jobs like traffic police, let alone becoming an athlete...
So the issue should remain a choice, a men who cann't stand the sight of a human like apearance without having X rated visions in their heads, they should cut "It" with a menJeL or eat some anti-viagra pills...excuse my chineese!
A man has no right to walk after a woman whispering in her ears, wether she has a hijab or not ! He cann't do that in the steets of none muslim countries.
And on the top of that, they claim that the west is more "muslim" than muslims.
Wal hama9 hada !! hehehe
I wish I had logical explanations to some "contraversial" islamic laws, so that I can debate with my none muslim friends without running out of arguments.
I still insist that Islam is a beautiful religion, wich can help a person adjust and harmonize his life.
by worshiping God, thinking about the after death, helping the poor and the week, loving his brotherman, have fun in life while he is alive. enjoy sports, art, company with friends etc...
Because life is beautiful, not just a drama theatre full of fear,intimation , censorship, execution and tears .
The more we project such a negative idea about Islam, the worse we make it's image in the eyes of other nations.

the choice is yours.

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9:27 pm    October 12, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
29
Naqissatou 3aqlin... because two women are needed to witness (basically two women count as one witness) .. this is the mother of unjustice unless there was very specific circumstancs when the "hadith sa7i7" was told. I am having HARD times imaging the prophet or God conider that 2 women make 1 witness. I wish the prophet were to ome back to give us more explanations, and maybe een change ome aspects of Islam that would solve many problems nowadays.

Nissaou naqissatou din... and that's because they don't fast all of ramadan? yalatif yalatif 3la interpretation (no you Nego but whoever told you or whoever you read).. Ramadan is not just about fating from food, it is bout fasting from folloing your dark side. Women who have to eat during their period to energize their body that's losing energy, arestill fasting from thir dark-side


That hadith, if it is true should be invstigted in he ontext durin which it was told. If thereis no context, we should strikethrough it.

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8:32 pm    October 12, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
28
Ali,
you think it is easy to form laws and rules??? what do you think? people will leave the Quran that is 100% true and follow your propositions???
at least you shouldn`t have arrange marriages on these laws cause it sound 1500 years old as well, while you don`t want 1500 laws to be any more, gallaek so we can match up the two groups(widows)?? zpuina hadi...

w zedti kemmeltiha, you said about a sa7i7 hadith that it is a lie????
where did you get that from??
(annissa2ou na9issatoun 3a9lan wa dinan) is a true hadith, and ONLY PEOPLE LIKE YOU MISSUNDERSTAND IT, BECAUSE IT DOES NOT MEAN ( LESS BRAIN THAN MEN) why he said that it`s because women have their periods so they don`t fast all ramadan, and they don`t pray when they are PMS`ing , that is why they are na9issatou dinan, na9issatoun 3a9lan, is because we need two women to witness(according to Quran) ...
chouia nchoufou chi wa7ed jayeb chi quran jdid dial 21st century.., la7awla wla 9ouatta illa billah..

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6:20 pm    October 12, 2003
Ali
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25
Dear Toc,

This is what my wife and I expect from all of our children (boys and girls):

1. Get educated

2. When you are over the age of 20, it?s their right to get married regardless of what my wife and I say.

3. Find a future husband or future wife

4. Let me know who and when they want to marry

5. Allah will be with you and your future spouse

6. I do not want to hear that women are ?Nakkesato Aklenn? (their brain is less than man). This is a lie! Extremist Islamist keep spreading these rumors for personal gains and to keep control over the woman destiny.

7. Bring Islam to the 21st century realities

Even If I disagree with the choice of my 20 years old daughter, I have absolutely no right in interfering in her love life. Based on this answer it?s clear that the girl does not need a ?legal? signature of her ?MALE? guardian to get married.

Jazzakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

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6:04 pm    October 12, 2003

Aziz Bezza message
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25
Hi TOC

why not if the girl is major?
It's her life and she can make her own decisions.
it will be much better if her family shares her joy.
In general such cases are rare in morocco.

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5:29 pm    October 12, 2003
toc
25
salam!

qu'est ce que vous pensez du fait que les filles pourront se marier sans l'accord de leur p?re ou de leur tuteur!!?

merci

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4:28 pm    October 12, 2003
Ali
24
21
Dear Hassan,

As far as the women who are widowed or divorced are concerned, here is a solution: The men can also be widowed with kids; they can marry the widowed or the divorced women.

I am assuming here that the widowed woman wants to get married and is looking to settle down, so let's have a Moroccan registry for widows and divorced (both man and woman) so that we can match up the two groups.

As far as a married man in a good relationship with his first wife, if there is a divorced or widowed woman out there and the husband is interested, let's do this:

1. The husband proposes in writing (a government issued Form paper) to his first wife his request for a second wife

2. If the first wife agrees, she signs the request document

3. The second wife receives a copy of the signed document by the first wife

4. All three parties go to a judge who verifies the wishes of the first and second wife

5. The judge verifies the income of the husband and the money situation of the other wives.

6. If everything financially is verified (example, it takes about 6000 dirhams per month per family of husband, wife, and 3 children to live in Casablanca, if the husband has another 6000 dirhams, then he passes the test), the judge will sign the papers and give the parties 1 month to cancel the arrangement. After one month, If no objections from either party, then the marriage is approved and the husband must report his income on a monthly basis for at least 5 years. This way all cheating from the husband is verified and checked.

Jazzakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

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3:40 pm    October 12, 2003
Ali
23
21
continued...

So here is a compromise between the left and right (remember that a man and a woman need sex and babies):

1. If a MAN is married to a woman who is healthy, gives babies, gives very good sex then the man should not be allowed by civil LAW to marry another women

2. If a MAN is married to a woman who is unable to give him babies and the doctors made sure that it?s the woman not the man who is unable to give babies, then the man is allowed to marry one more woman who is checked by a doctor for her ability to give babies

3. If a MAN is married to a woman who is terminally ill or menstruating 20 days or more of each month and the doctors made sure that she is not curable, then the man is allowed to marry one more woman who is checked by a doctor for her ability to menstruate up to 7 days.

4. If a WOMAN is married to a man who is healthy, his sperm gives babies, gives her very satisfying sex then the woman should not be allowed by civil LAW to marry another man

5. If a WOMAN is married to a man who is unable to give her babies and the doctors made sure that it?s the man not the woman who is unable to produce sperm to give babies, then the woman is allowed to marry one more man who is checked by a doctor for his ability to have an erection and produce good sperm to give babies

6. If a woman is married to a man who is terminally ill or unable to have an erection 20 days or more of each month and the doctors made sure that he is not curable, then the woman is allowed to marry one more man who is checked by a doctor for his ability to have an erection at least 20 times a month.

7. In all other cases, neither a man nor a woman is allowed to marry more than once.


Jazzakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

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3:37 pm    October 12, 2003
Ali
22
21
Dear Hassan,

Your explanations are very logic and make sense. However, I am mostly focused on those men who have a nice wife, who is very healthy, gives babies, and gives the husband sex that keeps him smiling for hours at a time. These type of man just go ahead and marry an extra woman against the wishes of logic and screw up their marriage.

continued....

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2:20 pm    October 12, 2003
Hassan
21
---------------CONTINUED---------------
This allowance also solves the problem of a widow who needs a husband to care for her but does not wish for an unmarried young man, similar to a divorced woman with children. Indeed this allowance may solve a social problem which arises from the high proportion of good women who want to marry in comparison to able men. This is a common problem which increases particularly in the aftermath of wars and the like. The fact, in this case, is that the extra women do one of three following options:
1) That they remain unmarried for the rest of their lives, and are thus deprived from being a wife and a mother, which is a great injustice.
2) That they fulfill their sexual needs regardless of decrees of religion and acceptable behavior, which will result in a tragic loss in this life and the hereafter.
3) That they agree to marry an already married man who is capable of meeting their living and sexual needs and who is confident in his ability to deal fairly and justly between his wives.
Myself I?m married to one I never had one thought to marry another one plus I can?t
Afford it, as they said the history repeat itself and Qur?an is good and true for
Anytime and anyplace so we should not change it .

Allah Almighty knows best
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2:18 pm    October 12, 2003
Hassan
20
Hi Ali,
I have no problem amending all Moroccan laws and enforcing it some of what M6 said is needed to be done I agree with that BUT I DON'T AGREE TO AMEND OR EVEN QUESTIONS WHAT ALLAH SAID.
Prior to Islam, men used to marry as many women as they wished without any limits nor conditions. When Islam was revealed, it prescribed a limit to the number of women one may marry and also placed conditions for this to take place. As for the limit, Islam prescribed that the maximum number of women a man can marry is four, as stated in the Qur'an: "Marry women of your choice, two or three or four?"
As for the condition, it is the confidence of the man that he can actually be totally just and fair between his wives, otherwise he is not allowed to re-marry. The Qur'an stated: "?but if you fear that you will not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one? In addition, the other conditions of any marriage must also be present, such as the ability to provide for the family and the ability to satisfy the sexual needs of the woman.
The reason for the allowance for a man to marry more than one woman is because Islam is a realistic religion and one which is not based upon idealistic notions which would cause real problems of everyday life without solution or treatment. It is very probable that a man marrying a second wife could be solving a problem, in that his first wife is incapable of bearing children or has extended menstruation cycles which result in his sexual needs being unsatisfied. The first wife could be ill and thus, instead of divorcing her and leaving her alone, could marry a second wife and remain next to his first wife, and so on.
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12:05 pm    October 12, 2003
Ali
19