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MOROCCO
Adnane Ben.
Boston USA
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comments.
Intelligent Design and Evolution in not so American lands
10:42:05 PM Monday Feb 20, 2006



Surely, Morocco has had its share of evolution when it comes to the Internet (referred to over there recently as De, Es, El). But intelligent design? not the least especially in its roads or Mouqata3as which by the way are wonderful galleries of abstract design.

From UK's The Independent Scientists call on churches to fight 'intelligent design'. I'm sure many of you have heard of the new buzz word 'intelligent design' in American headlines and the other counter buzz 'Evolution'. It is as big a political, social, religious and legal controvercy as abortion or 'the fight against terrorism'.
As far as I understand, American high school science classes teach Darwinian 'Evolution' as the only scientific theory. But, there started a movement not too long ago that argues for another theory and wants the future generation of America to know about it. They state that the world is too complex a design, an intelligent creator must have something to do with such a product. The upside, in the spirit of the American freedoms, the students are given an opportunity to research new ideas and think for themselves. The downside, the theory although argued as a scientific one stands on similar footing as religion. The movement is pushing buttons. Whether to teach it, and if yes, where: science or religion classes. The debate is hot.

This is all because the American constitution seperates state from church "religion".

Now, I wonder how would Morocco deal with such a debate if it was posed differently: Whether to teach the theory of Evolution in Moroccan Lycees (high schools) science classes. But wait, that might confuse the students during religion classes which align with the theory of Intelligent design.


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1:41 pm    March 16, 2006

Antr McShaddad (Yahia.L) message
16
13
Well, to such a question posed by an atheist my reply would be as follow :
The creator is outside his creation (the Universe), there for the laws that apply to the Universe don't apply to him,
Including our limited logical reasoning .
An "entity" that is outside space and time cann't be subjected to questions...
In my opinion that adds an unlimited beauty to the whole thing .
·

12:00 pm    March 16, 2006

Adnane Ben. message
15
14
A colleague of mine would love to acquire faith, but he is unable. He asks what does it take to get instilled such "faith". He finds logic to be more encompassing somehow.
·

11:12 am    March 16, 2006

hudhud message
14
13
and that's why it's called "faith"...
·

9:15 am    March 16, 2006

Adnane Ben. message
13
10
Very good reading,

But a Darwanian or atheist would ask you, ok who created that which created the flagella's propeller of a bacteria.

You can see that it's a check mated game no matter how you play it in a world bounded by human mind.

·

12:42 pm    March 13, 2006

Antr McShaddad (Yahia.L) message
12
Interesting links ...

http://www.reasoned.org/artic_2.htm

http://www.crescentlife.com/spirituality/islam.htm

·

11:57 am    March 13, 2006

Antr McShaddad (Yahia.L) message
11
10
Correct : Impplies the existance of a super intelligent "being" behind it all .
·

11:54 am    March 13, 2006

Antr McShaddad (Yahia.L) message
10
Evolution basically tries to trace back the evolvement of living organism or
it's parts from a complex to a simple structure .

For the Biologists, the most ming buggling organism is the flagella's propeller of a bacteria, which It allows it to move through a fluid, and can not be reduced to a less complex system .

It does really look like a complex machine, with joints, axis, rotatory rings, stabilizers etc...
http://idintheuk.blogspot.com/2006/01/is-bacterial-flagellum-irreducibly.html

The hardcore evolutionist found no clue how to reduce such a sophisticated
biological machine into a less complex structure .
And many scientists admit that such Irreducible Complexity is the evidence of an intelligent design behind it . In otherwords, evolution is check mated !
Of course the Darwinians are woking hard to go around it ...

Saying that there is an intelligent design, applies the existance of a super intelligence "being" behind it all .

I call it Allah !

PS: To me the simple fact that the laws of physics are the same all over the visible Univers is an evidence that there is a well planned design behind matter.
Otherways a falling apple on Mars, Andromeda or what ever... should fly up or something, intead of falling down as it does on Earth.

·

9:38 am    March 8, 2006

hudhud message
9
8
maybe sometimes we dismiss things as being just symbolic from a religious pov because we don't know or can't fathom their potential physical qualities..
·

12:27 pm    March 7, 2006

Adnane Ben. message
8
7
wind is the product of heat or cold, and pressure. The first two being immediate products of the sun, the latter a combination of interplanetary and satellite gravitations. Angels could be involved only in a "religious" perspective, and even then, they come to use the wind for the purposes of their missions. Ok, the whole is starting to sound complex again. I back off. I take it easy.
·

11:58 am    March 7, 2006

hudhud message
7
6
"the human eye. It can distinguish among seven million colors. It moves 100,000 times each day with automatic focusing. And the eye handles 1.5 million simultaneous messages."
SUBHAN ALKHALIQ! we forget how amazing our own senses are! automatic focusing.. for some reason i appreciate that more now thanks to my frustration with my camera..

wind.. that reminds me.. I read somewhere years ago that there are specific angels assigned with the task of "pushing" the clouds, if you will. i wonder: is the wind the mark of an angel passing by? also scientifically, when we look at clouds, what we're really seeing is light reflections off the water droplets.. and angels are created from light based on the quran..

clay pottery is art and art is always evolving.. ;o)
maybe we haven't studied wind enough.. maybe it does evolve in ways we just haven't discovered yet..
random thoughts.. my mind wanders.. my stomach growls......

·

10:57 am    March 7, 2006

Adnane Ben. message
6
5
someone would say: clay pots are not living organisms and therefore cannot evolve.

So evolution has a big assumption stating that it is only valid for living organisms.

ok, so the claypot is a non-living organism, it ressembles today's pots, so it's man made. That's why archealogists conclude immediately.

I ask: under which theory do non-living organisms fall? such as Wind for example.

·

10:43 am    March 7, 2006

Adnane Ben. message
5
I never thought of it from the following angle, it's just mind boggling! read this excerpt of an essay:

[Archaeologists will say that a clay pot is solid evidence that a civilization once lived there. No one believes that the ground, or wind, or chemicals randomly assembled to form that clay pot and accidentally painted a design on it. People made it. If a simple clay pot shows human design, what do we conclude about an object whose make up is far more complex? Like, the human eye. It can distinguish among seven million colors. It moves 100,000 times each day with automatic focusing. And the eye handles 1.5 million simultaneous messages.]

It makes me think of the several verses in the Quran where God gives the analogy to the creation of man as the creation from clay.. a-ha! He must be hinting to people that those ancient clay pots and jars you see in caves, rivers and inbetween rocks, sure belong to great civilizations that preceeded you.. and I, your creator, from the same clay, preceeded all.

This made my day!

·

11:36 am    February 21, 2006

hudhud message
4
i think the entire debate is ridiculous b/c there is absolutely no reason at all why religion and science should have to conflict with each other. from an islamic pov they are so compatible, and it's really annoying when some ppl frame this as a b&w, either/or type situation. i think the historic baggage from christian medieval europe is what's still fueling this fire in europe and in america. many of the catholic popes and christian leaders in various denominations across europe have a long history of oppressing and silencing scientists and scholars, and that's one huge reason why they were not able to advance medically and technologically until they began mining the knowledge of the islamic world during its golden age. this is why so many of their scientists did and still do rebel strongly against the church, often to the extreme end of completely denying a creator and claiming that all religion is bad.
it feels like ifraat and tafreet to me. "either god or science"!! opposite extremes that actually both need each other.
·

9:56 am    February 21, 2006

Adnane Ben. message
3
that this debate in America is referred to as a controvercy. I can easily put both theories in a science class without disrupting religion classes. The theories focus on the physical aspect of life and not so much on the metaphysical. Religions tend to answer the metaphysical questions, but they remain theories.. constructs of the mind, sometimes not even close to a construct of a mind.. So what is the big fuss? why is it so important to reconcile evolution with religion, or intelligent design with evolution? and what is the state of Intelligent Design versus the religions of the world?
·

9:38 am    February 21, 2006

hudhud message
2
islam and science are perfect partners, the quran is full of verses that command us to think, reason, ask questions, explore, and contemplate the universe. yes we believe in a creator, and yes we also believe in the quranic verse that states "wa ja3alna min almaa'i koula shay'in 7ayy". the quran is not meant to be a science textbook but it is indeed filled with descriptions of the universe that fit many modern scientific discoveries.

when it comes to the theory of evolution, there are some aspects of it that are perfectly acceptable, like the concept of natural selection, mutations, etc, but as for the actual statement that many secular scientists make about humans being directly evolved from apes, this has yet to be proven. we share over 90% of our dna with the ape world, but we also share large percentage of our dna with mice and other creatures. does this immediately mean we are evolved from mice? not necessarily. similarity does not imply causality, and God has created many things that are so similar and yet still different, separate creatures with their own unique characteristics.

something i always find interesting is that verse that states "wa yakhlouqou ma laa ta3lamoun".. there's so much out there that we don't know!

·

6:44 am    February 21, 2006

Rasta Gnawi message
1
Morocco is pretty liberal with its teachings of these subjects. Take a look at the philosophy material at the lycee. You spend some time on wahdanyah, then the gloves come off and it's no-holds-barred. It doesn't seem to me that Islam prohibits asking questions. God could have gone about creating in an infinite number of ways. Why reject any.
·

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