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Adnane Ben.
Boston USA
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12:00:00 AM Friday May 16, 2003

Today Friday May 16, 2003 There has been a few minutes ago at least 4 bomb explosions in the city of Casablanca, Morocco.
We don't know the details yet as of today May 6, 2003 7:30PM ET.
We know that there has been people dead and injured. Our condoleances for the famillies and friends of the dead, may they rest in peace.
If you know anything please inform us here.


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10:30 pm    February 24, 2008
Lavoro italia [URL=] mesi tatuajes de foto [/URL] abbiamo, della [URL=] masculinos fra modelo [/URL] detto mai.

12:17 am    February 9, 2008
Sia [URL=] vuelves italia no [/URL] usa [URL=] icono punto gratis [/URL] tempo ieri jugar delle ajedrez.

11:55 am    September 13, 2007
I have a school report talking about Morocco, and I need help getting an A+ please help me!

9:57 pm    May 23, 2003
allah yer7amhoum wi yer7am al jamee3 amine ya rab al 3alameen.

4:27 pm    May 23, 2003
Guys, every one has the right to express his feeling. But it has to be in the most responsible and civic way.
Sanaa and Loubna, I think u both are not serious about what u said.
Otherwise, I find ur posts childish and not constructive at all.
U need to watch ur words, if ur intention is to offend any of us, I don't think u'll be able to.

3:23 pm    May 23, 2003
Premierement, inna Allaha you3addibou mane yachae..Donc je trouve cela inhumain de ta part d 'esperer la souffrance aux otres.
2emment, comme tu l'a remarqu? le sujet de cet article concerne ce qui c'est pass? a casa, donc je trouve normale que les gens ici discute cela, si tu veux parler d autre chose tu peux aller chercher ailleurs..

10:39 am    May 23, 2003
Sanaa...if you dont care about what happend in Casa, we do care ... it s about our Contry not yours!!!

9:40 am    May 23, 2003

9:37 am    May 23, 2003

8:13 am    May 23, 2003

I added recently a function that you might find useful. With each discussion topic like this one, you find on top, underneath the Title a link called: Make this My Raioo Topic! When you click on it, the next time you browse to that discussion topic will be your front cover if you want to keep watching it, and keep it alive... usually some old topics die off.

So, right now raioo front cover is by default the social discussion topic about self-destructive DVD. If you go for example to the spiritual discussion topic To Misinterpret Religion, and make it your raioo front cover, next time you come to you will not see the default cover (DVD) but rather the Misinterpret Religion topic.

You can always inspect what is the default front cover, since I change that every week or so, by clicking on the link HOME on top, near Raioo Khmissa.

Any feedback for improvement let me know privately: adnane at raioo dot

Also just a friendly note for all of you, when you post your email on the internet these days, it is prone to collection by spammers to send you dozens of unsolicited email every day. Avoid posting your private emails here on raioo, and if necessary, only use an email that you intentionnally reserve for web use.



5:22 am    May 23, 2003
I wanted to say : a step back....

sorry guys !

P.S. by 'step back', I mean OBJECTIVE analysis of our founding values and system. We should be able to say that in some fields we might be wrong, or at least our understanding, or some people's understanding, might be totally erroneous. And in all the fields, including our religion.
As long as we don't have the guts to admit that there is a "malaise" in our societies, we will not move forward. It is not by having an "oh, we are so perfect, it is the fault of the jews, the americans and theothers" attitude that we are giving a chance to the futur generations to accept fully their identity, and be accepted.


5:15 am    May 23, 2003
maroc: terre de tol?rance.Voici un lien int?ressant:


5:12 am    May 23, 2003
Adnane, thanks for your support. I am deeply convinced that History is a source of wisdom that we rarely consult and understand. It is so full of lessons.
I really like your analysis of Global Inequality. Very interesting.
You are right, we should not throw our clothes because of a stain, but in my opinion, we should not be satisfied by blaming and beating up the one who threw the dirt (cf. mess. 333.)
What we are doing here appears to me to be very similar to what the US has done after sep11th: put "terrorism" in a simplistic equation (we are good, they are evil), and rush into the nest to destroy the individuals or states.
I think all of us blamed the US for their "war against terror" by saying that they should better understand the reasons behind these attacks (hatred against US imperialism, US foreign policy in Israel,..etc). It was obvious to us that the US can not be safe, unless it resolves the roots of terrorism.
The guys that blew themselves up are just the top of the iceberg. The hidden base of the iceberg is called: poverty, corruption, dilapidation of the country's ressources, repression, lack of freedom, etc.)
I think we are making the same mistake by wishing all the bad things to those extremists. We would better take a step forward to see the great picture.
And then, we can start working seriously in order to be proud one day of our country and our culture.....

5:06 am    May 23, 2003
Qui aurait une image bonne qualit? du logo mat9ich bladi. jeveux le transf?rer sur un tee-shirt ou casquette

4:25 am    May 23, 2003
Salam !
bon premierement! je veux dire ? celui qui a ecrit le msg avant celui l? je suis vraiement decu de lire des petits commentaires comme ca des commentaires de bas niveau oui je respecte ton opinion mais faut aussi savoir qu?il y a des gens qui vont lire ce msg des gens = hommes et femmes de differents niveaux alors un peu de respect pour le bien de tout le monde et surtout de RAIOO je suis sure qu?il y a en ce moment des nouveaux gens qui viennent de decouvrir ce site, ont lu ce msg et hop ! deja une idee fausse sur le but du site, ses principes et gens qui le visite quotidiennement.
? part ca t`as tout a fait raison! la faute "la grande faute" c?est pas des "jouhala" qui ont execut? l?attenat mais ceux qui leurs ont fait un lavage de cerveau "allah yakhoud fihoum el 7a9" mais je crois que ce ne va pas durer car nous sommes un peuple de solidarit? et de paix.
PS: veuillez voir ce logo,

12:18 am    May 23, 2003
salamo 3alikom !
la premiere des choses ! fel isslaam a travers les eres jamais kaan chi ta3assobb diini lchi religion jamais ! meme rrassoul kaan 3andou jaar yahoudi ! l`isslaam dine zine we maachi diir li7ya we temchi ljaame3 baach tkoune messlemm ! yen3all lwa9tt li daaart biina haad l7aaala ! iiji waa7ed wey9toll au nom de dieu !
9etlou gha khoutna fel maghriib ! naass m9awda 3liihom kaanou kheddaaamine we kayweklou 3aa2ilaaat !
jaaaw ljahala we nfaajrou wesst`hom 3ad baalhom irou7ou leljenna ! la mchaaw haadou leljenna llay n3al mmey !
mayb9aach fina l7aal men haadou li daarou haad chi ! khassna ne7diiw men wlaad lkelb li 3ammrou lihom raaasshom...
wlaad lkleb li daaarou l`isslaam moyen baach irou7ou lel power...
melli people ye9tol wlaad blaadou weygool haad chi maachi kifaaya ! ma b9a maytgaal ! khaass bouhom yet7argou 7ayyyiiiiiine ! yen3all mmhom !
kherjou 3la lmaghriib we khaass cha3bou daak 3absslaam yassine yet3demm howa raaass l7ench !!!

11:35 pm    May 22, 2003
they could trace the letter to where it was mailed from by looking at the "tabe3e dial l mdian ou dial lablade lli jate manou" still is not enough.
may be someone just comes and drop it at aljazeera's foot step at dawn like we used to see in those old egyptian movies when someone drops a crying baby at the step of chi khayriya:) who knows right?

11:14 pm    May 22, 2003
Salamou 3alaikoum,
A moroccan born just been arrested here in Montreal.
They said he has links to alqa3ida and the Algerian ahmed rassam.

10:48 pm    May 22, 2003
For ur last question, I think the tapes are usually mailed to aljazeera.
The sender name and adress, are not required most of the time, so they never get to know who mailed the tape.

10:40 pm    May 22, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
Morocco caught 2 of the wanted people today.

The country officials also confirmed that lqa3da supported the attack financially, $50,000 was wired a few months ago by lqa3da, and locals trained in jebal bin ladina, who in turn selected their victims and trained them.

Question: these tapes that jazeera receives, are they just dropped at jazeera ? jazeera hasn't yet figured out who is dropping the tapes ? they don't trace them.. ? no cameras ?


7:53 pm    May 22, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
I forgot to comment on Mourad007 from FRANCE, Message 315. I like what you said, and thanks for bringing an analogy from the past, I always find history lessons a treasure I'm hungry to digest. Also your ending was getting closer and closer to The Matrix :)

7:12 pm    May 22, 2003

Adnane Ben. message

I am reading these days a book about Sociology, and I am developing a personal opinion that what is happening in the world - terrorism, this time encouraged by osama and co - is MERELY a symptom of a greater disease: Global Inequality. There are two theories to it: Modernization theroy, and Dependency theory. The first suggests that rich nations can draw poor countries toward prosperity; the second suggests that rich nations have locked the Third World into an endless cycle of misery. I was thinking of opening a debate about this in a future social discussion. I personally think that the Global Inequality that we live in nowadays is best explained by the Dependency theory, which has created undesirable symptoms, among which is terrorism. 9/11 was a reality of this terroism.

That's why I really do not wish that fellow Muslims get trapped in the idea that Islam is hard to understand, hard to live by, that islam is the main cause and blame for terrorism encouraged by osama. Islam ought to still be promoted as an individual but more important as a social guide for a better life. I ask myself, and all, to promote Islam and help free it from the image of terrorism. This image which I see it merely as a dirty mark on one's clothing, you clean your clothes and you wear them again, you usually Don't throw them away.. or give them away just because of a stain.


6:27 pm    May 22, 2003

Aziz Bezza message
Hello everyone
As you might have heard, another tragedy hit our friends and brothers in Algeria,the death toll according to NBC news rose to 1100, from an earthquake that struck Algiers and nearby towns. I deeply share their grievances at this time of utter devastation.It's a heartbreaking disaster.My prayers and thoughts goes to the victims and their families.
About the latest"hot topic", the image of Islam has been definitly damaged, and it's clear and obvious how ever since SEP 11 Muslims have difficulties in their social lives.
In my opinion it's a mistake to be identified as a muslim or catholic or whatever your religion is.It's ironic how no evil deeds, as many as they exist, get linked to Christianity or Judaism. WE should maintain our religion for private practice, and rid our selves from ruling Islam.

5:06 pm    May 22, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
So Arabi, you say that if i wear 3arraqiya, you'd think I am a jew. Ok fine. So you also want to say if I wear something symbolic of Islam -- which let's say is a subset of our cultural and traditional symbols in the first place -- then you will draw the conclusion that I am Muslim. Ok, fine Arabi. What I am telling you is what is wrong with being Muslim ? So you have already made the link in your head that a Muslim is someone to be careful about or something ? to inspect ?

This is exactly why I said you should help promote the distinction between Muslim in all of his/her glory and pride, and attackers of 9/11 riyad, casa etc. If you think the media has made that connection, isn't it you responsibility to help reduce it ?


4:58 pm    May 22, 2003
It is alarming how you never see the greater picture of things. Ofcourse, I cannot be very precise at all times. I never said that islam is represented by clothing, I rather meant wearing something that muslims usually wear to go to the mosque or do any religious activity. You cannot deny that we do wear special clothes, which I love, during special religious days ;). Just like jews with there little hats on the head. If you wear that little hat, does it mean you are a jew. Not necessarly, but I'd sure think that you are one. I hope this isn't too confusing.

About your experience in the world's airports, I am extremely relieved that you did not have to experience anything like MANY muslims (even nonmuslims) have experienced. I will not go on and tell you stories because I am sure a lot of people can flood this forum with examples.

Peace N Love


4:54 pm    May 22, 2003
Islam does not have symbolic clothes, but show how to dress (for men and women). So according to Islam we can not dress anyway we want, we have wear clothes according to some rules.
In the sahih alboukhari, there a whole book containnig 103 hadiths about how to dress in Islam. The book is called kitab allibas.
So a traditionnal moroccan dresses are valid according to this ahadiths, also traditionnal pakistanee suits are valid to this ahadiths.
So again Islam haven't symbolic clothes but it gave us a certain limits.
The issue of clothes in Islam become very scary, when u read all the sayings of the profit (pbuh) about libass, because when we don't dress in a certain way, we don't only miss the reward for that, we will be punished for it.

4:40 pm    May 22, 2003
Salamou 3alaikoum,
"-Arabs and Muslims turned against each other."
Adnane and Arabi, u're both right about how u see this point.
This is how I see it: muslim states are turning agaisnt each other while muslim individuals are getting back te their religion and are getting more unified (Here of course I'm talking about muslims in north america, I dunno about how things are going back home)

4:36 pm    May 22, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
Arabi, Islam doesn't have symbolic clothes. Cultures have symbolic traditional clothes. You need to make this distinction yourself by now! More than that, don't you think you need to promote this distinction among your non-Muslim friends as much as you can, if you're really a proud Arabi till you die as you claim ?

After 9/11 I went to Morocco for vacation. On my way back, I felt like wearing a nice traditional Red Fez hat that I had just bought from Fes. I wore it in the airport at Casa, in the airport De Gaules, and in JFK, along with a long suit-like jacket bleu marine. I looked very much Moroccan, or more Arabic. I was not suspected for anything, sometimes I wasn't even inspected when others, old American folks, were inspected.


4:15 pm    May 22, 2003

I will add some cleaification to arabi's quote:
" "-The world has degraded Islam to the lowest levels." --- I don't think that it is true. People who knew Islam didn't change their opinion, and people who didn't know Islam are striving to learn about it, by reading books, watching documentaries, going to Mosque sessions, going to debates..etc at least in America. "

Adnane, can you please wear any thing that represents Islam and go to the airport ;) Then and only then you'll see what "they" truly think about Islam. Furthermore, the fact that Muslims are always on TV & radio defending the Image of Islam is a big indicator that people think otherwise.

i have two examples that happened to two none muslim people. i know two professor one italian and the other is american and they both have a beard they are frequente travelers and evrytime the italina professor get stoped at the airport becaseu first he has a beard and second he looks like an arab but after they check his passport they let him go with any problem. on the other hand the american professor never get stoped not even for once, because he is too "white" to be suspicious. i have more to say about these questions but i'm tired now so i'll save them for later

thalaw f fouskoume ou fi khoutkoume


3:41 pm    May 22, 2003
Let me support my facts even though they are obvious to many of us. But again we all see things with different perspective.

You said:
" "-Arabs and Muslims turned against each other." --- It would be more informative if you can back it up. I see Muslims now stimulated to understand their own religion better, to refer to it for guidance. Not turn against each other."

On a larger scale, we see Muslim countries pointing fingers at each other (As example: the relatioship between Algeria & Morocco, Jordan & Palestine or Syria, Kweit and the rest of Arab world...etc)

On a smaller scale, you muslims detonating themselves only to their brothers and sisters (muslims+other).

" "-The world has degraded Islam to the lowest levels." --- I don't think that it is true. People who knew Islam didn't change their opinion, and people who didn't know Islam are striving to learn about it, by reading books, watching documentaries, going to Mosque sessions, going to debates..etc at least in America. "

Adnane, can you please wear any thing that represents Islam and go to the airport ;) Then and only then you'll see what "they" truly think about Islam. Furthermore, the fact that Muslims are always on TV & radio defending the Image of Islam is a big indicator that people think otherwise.


3:41 pm    May 22, 2003
"-Arab world is fertile soil for the US and its greedy allies to exploit. Doing so, weakens the Arab World leading to a more secure Iseal. (killing two birds in one stone)" --- can you back this up.

Are you kidding!! The last war on Iraq was a pre-emptive attack, which was justified by the terrorist attack of sept 11th, when the whole world saw unjust.

"I believe nobody is benefiting from all of this to answer your question. Not yet at least. But one thing for sure, the root cause as I see it is the combination of police-type Arab governments coupled with US self-interest-driven foreign policies."

You don't think that a weaker Arab World implies a more secure Isreal. You do not believe that this situation provides more reasons for the US to install in the region and therefore exploit the resources natural or human?

Bazz! :)

Peace N Love


2:58 pm    May 22, 2003

Adnane Ben. message

I'm not sure if all of what you mentioned are facts.

"-Arabs and Muslims turned against each other." --- It would be more informative if you can back it up. I see Muslims now stimulated to understand their own religion better, to refer to it for guidance. Not turn against each other.

"-The world has degraded Islam to the lowest levels." --- I don't think that it is true. People who knew Islam didn't change their opinion, and people who didn't know Islam are striving to learn about it, by reading books, watching documentaries, going to Mosque sessions, going to debates..etc at least in America.

"-Internationally, The palestinian struggle is now in the same basket as terrorism." --- Maybe you are right here.

"-Arab world is fertile soil for the US and its greedy allies to exploit. Doing so, weakens the Arab World leading to a more secure Iseal. (killing two birds in one stone)" --- can you back this up.

I believe nobody is benefiting from all of this to answer your question. Not yet at least. But one thing for sure, the root cause as I see it is the combination of police-type Arab governments coupled with US self-interest-driven foreign policies.

You echoed a good point about the youth that are used in these attacks. You wish to purify.. that's a strong word, it's very hard to find someone who is pure. But we agree that much need be done in our countries at the economic and social justice levels, to give better opportunities to people in general. launching wave of awareness towards them will be confronting them head-on, that causes friction and resistance.



2:34 pm    May 22, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message

2:20 pm    May 22, 2003
A Salamou 3laykoum!

There are many ways to solve a mathematical problem,e.g., proof by induction, recursion...etc. When we reach a dead end in solving a problem, we stop to gather our thoughts and restart the thinking process with a different approach.
Math is universal language of logic, which could also be applied in real life, e.g., Physics.
Now, we all are trying to understand the world and its ugly, ambiguous expression. Let us consider the proof-by-induction approach to reach the answer hopefully.

Analyzing the OUTCOME of the current situation (Without asking why, for this step), we'll discover the following facts:

-Arabs and Muslims turned against each other.
-The world has degraded Islam to the lowest levels.
-Internationally, The palestinian struggle is now in the same basket as terrorism.
-Arab world is fertile soil for the US and its greedy allies to exploit. Doing so, weakens the Arab World leading to a more secure Iseal. (killing two birds in one stone)

Now considering the facts above, who do you think is the number one benefitor? (Interesting to see what will everyone answer)


2:19 pm    May 22, 2003
Then, After we get the answer to the question above, we'll validate it. The way we validate this country is by listing all its activities in world showing the country's interests on all levels.
May be then we'll locate the problem and try to find a robust solution for it.

In relation, The criminals that committed these acts of aggression against innocent people in Casablanca (my home town) did not coincidentally meet and planed these attacks. Unfortunately these kids were fertile grounds for planting seeds of hatred in their hearts. Now who is responsible for that. Furthermorer, is the persone responsible also simply a marionette controled by higher evil. If we trace this chain up until the end, we'll understand that even the godfather, big boss (e.g., Bin Laden) is also a simple heartless pawn waiting for instructions. Therefore, the truth is quite bigger than we always perceive. Finding the source can be difficult, but we certainly can remotely defeat it with lanching a waive of awareness to purify the affected-youth mind from its deeply penetrated poison.

Religion is a tool (just like a knife). Some use it for good, and others for evil.
Please do not blame the religion for what it didn't do. We sure do not blame the knife for a stabbed person.

Peace N Love

NB: Don't forget to answer the above question, thanks.


12:42 pm    May 22, 2003
The big picture.....
It is all happening because of BUSH

12:19 pm    May 22, 2003

Adnane Ben. message

I promised myself not to write long passages.. I broke that rule now pardon me. I will try in the future to keep it short, for my benefit and everyone else' reading.

To add to what Mourad and Casaoui said,

This might sound ironic and offensive. But the actual situation of the Muslim world needs people like Bin Laden in order to leverage itself. Why ?

Because exceptions are the only way to perceive the norm. Everything has an exception to it, sometimes good, sometimes bad. We should learn how to utilize this powerful concept of exceptions to enhance ourselves.

Just like we need homosexuality, for it reinforce the meaning of the viable norm, which is heterosexuality.

I also believe that, in our societies, we look badly at these people who start to show more and more interest in Islam. We marginalize them, at some point, frankly, we hurt them by our observations on how they look, what they wear, and how they talk. hey might have started interest to learn more about islam in a good and honest intention, but eventually they see people out there who demean them.. who direspect them as individuals, then as groups. They turn into such aggressive behavior. Please reconsider this thought, i am thinking out loud here. So I may be wrong.

Bin Ladin or his likes, is hurting everyone, on one hand with his calls for attacks and destruction of western interests, yet it is the wisdom of God that the vision of these people is slowly but surely stirring up the true essence of Islam in the Muslims.

Bin Ladin or his likes, might be doing all of this for causes, that others before them took upon themselves, such as Palestine, "corrupt" Muslim governments who do not provide fairly for their people. What are all reasonable goals. But are they worthy of Bin ladin's type of undertaking ? Did the world run out of all peaceful ways to deal with these undertakings ? I can hear you saying No. There is always a peaceful way to do things. What comes in the way is impatience.

Before I say my next opinion, let me shed light on a term i will be using: Framework. One of the definitions by The American Heritage? Dictionary of the English Language, Framework is a structure for supporting or enclosing something else, especially a skeletal support used as the basis for something being constructed. Having said that, my opinion may sound very simple to you. Muslims need to co-exist with non-Muslims in a framework of more trade, more academic and scientific cooperation, never in a framework of one singular religion, because frankly the only thing that is singular in this world is God.

On killing an innocent life, i always keep this Hadith Qudssi in my mind to remind myself in case I am in doubt: Prophet Mohammed said that on the day of resurrection, everyone stops operating except those who are planting a seed or plant, after they are done they stop to operate. His friends asked him why ? shouldn't everyone stop ? He said no, God ask us to sustain life, and to leave killing a life to him only.

And this is only a seed.


11:47 am    May 22, 2003
Ayur is that you Fouad from ENA

9:21 am    May 22, 2003
God's rules has existed, still exists and will remain existing.
Because it is a promis from God that he will protect his book which contains his words and his only words.
If God created us and the unverse and did not send his messages to us it will unfair, and God is the most fair (SWT). Life on earth needs theses ruling so that we can function in the perfected Way with the success in every aspect of this life.
We real need his ruling, because, we huming being the intelligent animal are so obstinate with our little brain. I can give u a long list of the benefits of God rules,
ONE because he knows every thing THREE he's capabale of every thing,
FOUR, he's one God and not more, so one LAW to follow (When u have two bosses, u know how hard it gets to deal with them and acomplish ur tasks)
FIVE, when u buy any electronic gadget u need a user Guide to opreate the machine (can u build any machine, software or anything without a user guide ?)
The list reasons why we need the ruling of god is endless.

Our the problem today, to many people are calaiming they the 3aqida et shari3a better. Also people are not following the teachings and methodology of our profit in order to call people to Islam.
What is the solution ?
This is a punishement of God to all the muslims. We need to deal with it in very wise way. First we need to go back our religion (prayer, fasting, etc.)
second we need to behave our selves and show the best attitude toward the other. Educate our children and think for the generation.
And sibhana lah, people i know personnaly following this path are living a good balance in terms our Job, education, wealth, children, religion and intelectually speaking, while most of the rest of the muslims are suffering from different problems.


8:38 am    May 22, 2003
Oasienne, thank you very much for making this essential point.
What bothers me personally is definitely not the religion itself, but the fact that some enlightened brothers claiming to hold the absolute truth, allow themselves to judge others as kuffar, and try to interfere with others' lifes.

I am not in a position to judge Islam, but I find so many similarities with the social crisis that Europe lived between the 16th and 18th century (from the war between protestants and catholics, and the declaration of human rights), and the indentity crisis we witness in our societies.
In the 16th century, Cath. viewed the Prot. as kuffar, and as being out of the right path, as the devils work, etc. We all know the slaughter of tens of thousnads of protestants in Paris during la saint barthelemy, perpetrated by a mob heated by the calls of devote Catholic preachers.

What we see know, from Pakistan to Morocco, are only a group of empty-headed full-bearded that are controled by Bin Laden and other enlightened crazy brains. Their call is actually very logic: We have to set God's rule on earth, because God's system is infaillible.

Let me tell you one thing fellows: If your God allows you to kill innocents like this, then we don't have the same God.
God is infaillible, but his system is not, because it probably does not exist, and definitely never existed.

cheers all,


8:25 am    May 22, 2003
choufou wache kat3arfou chi 9arde mane hade la9rouda

8:24 am    May 22, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
When I said they should be Hanged PUBLICLY, that is not to Terrorise the People or the kids..., BUT because it is the way we execute a man who killed or planned to kill innocent people ACCORDING to chari3a that they believe in.
and as many of us believe MOROCCANS are camouniyine, and such thing will put fear in their hearts to even think about joining the far extremists.., i do believe that a killer should be executed publicly and that a theif should be punished(cut his hand) PUBLICLY, so others will Learn, bach hadou ykounou 3ibra liman ya3tabir,
For those who go outside and tell Women to put alhijab in a rediculous WAY ,IF WE ARE well educated about our Religion any of us could stop that GUY when he started shouting at her like that, ANY ONE could have told him, are you better than Moussa(PBUH) ,he would say no of course, and then tell him if the GIRL is worst than Fir3awn ,who said ana raboukoum ala3la, he would say no of course, then you tell him , allah sent moussa and haroun, to fir3awn and told them to tell him (wa 9oula lahou 9awlan layennan) and look at you and how you are talking to this Girl,
this is how Islam teach us to talk to people, those people are doing this because they are not well educated about their religion that they think they know more than others, they ignore that the prophet(PBUH) had a neighbour who was JEW and this jew used to put trash in the Prophet`s(PBUH) Door every morning, one day the Prophet(PBUH) woke up and didn`t find the trash, he went and asked bout him they told him he was sick, so he went and VISITED him, koun kan chi wa7ed men hadou koun 9etlou yla 7e66 lih zbel f bab darou.
this is the teaching that our Beloved prophet left for us, but some people are people , w rebbi kayehddi lli bgha , machi lli bghina 7naya...

8:15 am    May 22, 2003
Oasienne, je suis partiellement d'accord avec toi, bon car je vis ? Rabat Agdal, j'y ?tudie, et je la connais suffisemment pour en avoir une id?e.
bon ? Rabat, comme ? Casa ou ? n'importe kel ville, les filles mab9awch kay7echmou, elles ont meme d?pass? les limites, en entrant ? un super march? ( comme label vie si tu le connais ) y a des filles/femmes presque nues ki font le shopping, parfois ?a me monte ? la tete, mais bon je crois ke ?a entre dans leur lib?rt? personnelle, ? condition k'elle respectent les autres, les familles et leurs enfants...
ben c juste mon avis personnel...

7:36 am    May 22, 2003
Asba7e lkhire 3likoume:

4:31 am    May 22, 2003
Assi Antr i completely agree with you, stories you've told are so frightening.
In fact the more i grow up the more i see that education is the key to development, there is no other way.
The last time i visited morroco , iwas in the Agdal neighborhood in rabat.A girl had just parked her car and was entering a shop when a bearded guy came over her ans started to shout: why don't you wear el hijjab al kaffira?
A,d he went on talking about ywm el 9yama etc..
I was deeply shocked: how can true muslims believe that god is like a super "expert comptable", and that only appearance matters?I believe that is our heat and our souls that would be judged.
We muslims have accomplished an amazing thing: we don't have any clerical structure but some stupid fellows appear and proclame themselves as suoer teachers of islam.
Makes me sick..

3:02 am    May 22, 2003
Sorry antr if I got wrong. The reason I was asking these questions is that because some people think that learning about there religion is waist of time because of to many reasons (Religion is unproovebale, irrational, etc.)
But alhamdoulilah, u don't seem one of those people. So I really agree with ur point since u see it that way.
Learning science and technology is not only important for a muslim, it is a duty on every muslim.
The perception of Islam in morocco makes really feel sorry, lhamdoulah i learn about my religion more in the west than what I learnd back home otherwise me too I would develop an allergy against Islam.

1:03 am    May 22, 2003
It's always nice to read you Antar.

12:53 am    May 22, 2003
Ali Lmrabet condamn? a 4 ans de prison ferme lors d`un proces politique qui a mis ? nue l`independance de la justice marocaine. La liberte de presse au Maroc est en net progres !!! No comment. Pour plus d`infos sur le sujet visitez ce lien : WWW.RSF.FR

12:35 am    May 22, 2003
Natr and moulzari3a:
hehehe this story should me in repley's belives or not. i know that this story is not true but i know a lot of people that belived it.
Iwa ma3alina ghire n7arkou rasna mane limane lli sayer ou ngoulou:
antr ach ngoulou?

12:20 am    May 22, 2003
koun kanrt lbaraka kat9tel kourra houwa israel ghabrat :)

12:07 am    May 22, 2003

Antr McShaddad (Yahia.L) message

Well, if the story you've heard is true, then the girl who died in the bus was either killed or had a heat attack.
I dont believe that she died because she refused to give the seat to the religiouse man and he did throw a spell on her or something like that.
Otherways we would be talking about a super power that would make the X-men look like Pinochio.
Imagine what could make of the world, if we had such poeple who can kill others with their Baraka, just for a bus seat...


11:17 pm    May 21, 2003
YEP i saw the news about algeria and i saw the dertroed buildings and dead people on the sidewalks covered with white sheets. But hada 9adare allahe and we can do nothing about it but tara7oume 3la arwa7e l moutta.
ANTR i totally agree with you man i saw some stuff like that when i was in morocco the last time. But did you hear about that girl who died on the bus because she didn't want to give up her seat to someone + she sweared at that somone who said something religious and when the bus reached his last destination the driver found the girl dead. explain this. Nobody had any explantion for this incident and i don't know even if it's true but i heard ti all around Casa.
Alahe i7ane ou yar7ame 3la moutana goulou ammmmmmmmiine.

10:20 pm    May 21, 2003

Antr McShaddad (Yahia.L) message

When you discuss with a young "islamiste"(sorry for
calling him so) who wants to establish an "Islamic state" in morocco about the economic plans he has in mind, or wishs to see in use as to deal with the outside world, he has none...
When you ask him wether, if the Shariaa would rules the country,the civil law could be improved or edited when needed...he picks up coranic verse taken out of its contests, and blocks you with it. Check mate!
And If you would argue, you are Kafir and you deserve death.

The logic has never been the monopoly of the west,
on the contrary, muslims did excel in divers scientific fields when the west was still illeterate.and thanks to the logical thinking. and that's what every Moroccan should learn, although it is not the perfect tool.

To make my point more clear, I think that if a person wants to dive deep inside the divers Islamic interpretations, he should learn enough about the scientific method, as well as learn about the creation from a scientific point of view, otherways the dogmatic and corrupt views will take place.

Having said the above, I am not exactly sure who did the bombings of Casa, one thing is sure. who ever did plan it, does not wish well to Morocco, and if he does he has a twisted way of showing it.

and that is my humble opinion, wallahu A3lam.


PS: My condoleances to the victimes of Algiers earthquake, may Allah have mercy on all muslims.


10:19 pm    May 21, 2003

Antr McShaddad (Yahia.L) message

Just a couple of days ago, there was a doc. on TV about 5 moroccan young ladies in Morocco, talking about their hopes, aspirations etc...the one of them (who was speaking english) said that women are Satan's army, and started talking about the apple, Adam and the snakes, w'hak balak...She was inside a Matrix of her own... :)
And these are the folks who, sometimes make me worry about the futur of Morocco. How can poeple with such mentality can dream of even running a company, let alone a country ?


10:17 pm    May 21, 2003

Antr McShaddad (Yahia.L) message

Absolutely not, I would never claim that learning about Islam would prevent a subject from learning other things.
I was refering to those young moroccans who kick out everything, join a hard line group, and start reading nothing else but religious books, many of them have droped out of schools, many have been saved by religion from drug, alcohol or gambling addictions, some don't even know how to read correctly, and later they start preaching a religion, they don't know much about.
(I know that there the well educated and balanced ones, but I am not talking about the exceptions here)

I have seen in a one town while visiting a souq, a moroccan man sitting on a pile of oignons selling them, he looked like a "hardline afghan" (ok the looks isnt important), when a girl wearing modern clothes selected the ognions and was ready to pay, he trew "Lkeffa" to her in a rude way so that she would put the money in it.
He was close enough to take the money from her hand...but he didnt, then he reached the tape player behind him, and started playing one of them loud and spooky and appocalyptic speechs made in Saudi arabia, talking about dooms days and the armaggedon.
It was a very provocative!


9:30 pm    May 21, 2003
I wanted to let those of you who don't know yet that Algeria today Wednesday May 21, 2003 incurred an Quake that Killed at Least 459 and thousands injurred in the capital Algiers...

My sympathy and condoleances for the people touched by yet another dramatic event this week.


8:32 pm    May 21, 2003
The arrest of the moroccans in S-A is not linked to any terrorist acts ...


7:41 pm    May 21, 2003
bonjour,je sais qu'il ya 41 morts et une centaine de blaisses,ca s'est passe dans differente etablissement frequentees par des etrangers,mais il ya eu 2 francais et 1 italien tout le reste sont des marocains.les autorites ont traces leur origine ils sont tous d'un quartiet tres defavorise de casa..
ils etait 14 kamikases..a suivre

6:31 pm    May 21, 2003
Did you hear about the arrest of 3 Moroccans in Saudia arabia planing to Hijack an airplane? were they really planing to do so, or Saudia arabia is just trying pay back Morocco for arresting 3 of its fellow recently?

4:53 pm    May 21, 2003
I was hoping u could more clear about what u mean by ..."A guy who has read 700 books writen by religious scholars, while he can NOT solve a simple Maths equation."
I don't see what is the problem here, is learning ur religion will deprive u from learning science, is that u mean or somthing else ?

4:38 pm    May 21, 2003

Antr McShaddad (Yahia.L) message

I mean to say..."A guy who has read 700 books writen by religious scholars, while he can NOT solve a simple Maths equation.


Yes bro, I have no other choice but to be me...;)

Are you going to surprise me bi shi jebbania dial BandeQ ? :)

Stay well and good night all.


4:08 pm    May 21, 2003
is that you man from fingland? i hope you still remember man we haven't spoken man in like 4 years i will let you who i am in time.

3:32 pm    May 21, 2003

Antr McShaddad (Yahia.L) message
Adnane, your friend is right.
It amazes me , when I hear about poeple who dedicated their entire lives learning about birds migration, the behaviour of insects or protecting nature, and got much fun of it.
And it frustrates me to see a young guy who has read 700 books writen by religious scholars since the past 900 years up till now, while he can solve a simple equation of Maths.

Negociator/ I dont think the remaining terrorists should be executed, on the contrary, they are a good assets of information
to track down the network(s) they belong to.

This is personal, but I am against public executions....we dont have to terrorise the public and traumatize the kids by such gross shows as they did in Iran and Afghanistan...
They are other means of theaching the common sense than terror.

beside almost all the moroccans in morocco are upset because of what has happened...


3:14 pm    May 21, 2003
Well i do agree with you but bare in mind that these poeple are not afraid to die so is the same thing for them die by a bomb or die hanging do you see what i mean?

3:08 pm    May 21, 2003
Ba Lbahja:
try sacred night that is in english and he has many others almost all his writtings are translated to english. let me know if you need anything else ok a la3zawi?:)

2:59 pm    May 21, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
I heard that they got the 15th Kamikaz (Tomorrow`s Economist) .
I THINK that they should Execute these 3 that were caught alive, and those Involved PUBLICLY (I know machi f doustour) BUT according to chari3a this is fitna and they should be Hanged PUBLICLY so Others will Learn FROM this, 7naya lemgharba (muslims)kamouniyine, IN THAT CASE People will remember this....

2:46 pm    May 21, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
Antr, I was talking with a colleague of mine here at work yesterday, we were in a meeting discussing Fibre Channel protocols, SCSI, iSCSI etc.. and he told me jokingly, well if they only knew how much fun Fibe Channel protocol is they wouldn't have done that.

I am not expecting them to know about this technology, if I am I must be foolish; but what the essence from what he said has a strong message to the direct responsibles of such people, and their governments even more.


2:33 pm    May 21, 2003

Antr McShaddad (Yahia.L) message
What happened in Casablanca is a wake up call for the governement and the moroccan poeple to asume their responsabilities and take them seriousely.
Young poeple have to be kept busy
learning a technology, know how, science, art or industry and provide them with hope for a better futur IN Morocco.
So that they wouldnt have time nor the weakness to become an easy victim ready to get brainwashed by those who ABUSE the freedom of speech available in morocco these spreading doctrines that state that life on earth is worth nothing, that "koffar" everywhere should be attacked...etc...and they teach them in their own way, how to detect a "muslim" from a "kafir".
Investing in young poeple in Morocco is investing in the peace and the stability of the country.
I also hope that the young Moroccans who are already carried away by this type of "clerics" who remind them of nohing else but Heaven and Hell.... should step back and think independately for themselves, and understand what they are getting into .
According to the Moroccan sources, the suicide bombers were from shantytown, one of them was selling sausages, one was a guard at a parking place, one was selling "Jawi" infront of a mosque, and one was selling booklets religious catalogues.
Abviousely, they didn't have much to loose...
Such young poeple should have been given something to look forward to, thats the only way to save them from becoming a time bomb ready to be used by who ever is seeking power, destruction
or what ever...
As for the masterminds behind all of this, if they are locals...they should be put in a quarantine of some sort...

Wa Salam


2:17 pm    May 21, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
Now that it's clear where to go and talk about Sahra, Moroccan or not, I ask you and hope you can now stick to the topic above. We derailed, we needed to understand each oher, but my goal and apparently the goal of many of you was still to fix the rails, apply oil, and come back on track. As you see this is not a free forum, it's organized by discussions and topics.

Since I started these discussions a while my hope was that people, in general, will stick to a topic, and have a good debate.

I understand that everyone has his/her ideology, and that we are by nature attracted more to those who share our ideology; however, the goal of this forum is not to entice any conflict among people, is not to arouse cynicism. The goal of this forum has always been to challenge yourself to stick to a topic, to dig deep into it, to try and understand how others view things, to learn if you don't know, and to keep your pride to yourself if you know more than what everyone knows.

No one knows what everyone knows together.

But you can see that if everyone starts to discuss their own topic, nobody will be able to follow, given the current model. You may send me a private email with topics you'd like to see in the front page and I will consider them.

This web site RAIOO.COM is my hobby, my way of keeping in touch with my fellow Moroccans and friends of Morocco, and a great way for me to keep in touch with web technology and user interfaces. It is a place I support, protect and most importantly I open for all of you without forcing anyone of you to pay me for the host fees or the service, and without collecting your names, emails o any of that commercial non-sense. I have sponsors, may God bless them, and I prefer to keep them a handful because I am not here to make money.



2:13 pm    May 21, 2003
Does anyone knows any novel of Tahar benjelloun translated to english, that one can buy from Barnes and noble! I used to read his short stories when i was undergrad in Morocco, he has many published in french.

1:54 pm    May 21, 2003
Thanks for all the links to the true Moroccan map.
Hakda ikounou rrejjala :-)

"wel waaaad waaaaadi ya sidi wel waaaad waaaaadiiiiii l3youuuuuuuun 3iniya saaaa9ya l7mrania..."

Peace N Love


1:08 pm    May 21, 2003
well mariam as you are a woman and moroccan i would to know if you are satisfied with teh resent changed that the goverment made for women and their issues?

1:03 pm    May 21, 2003
o.k, khayibaba.lets to talk about the women in morocco and other social problems in morocco


12:49 pm    May 21, 2003
mariam let's talk about tahar ben jalloune and his novels how about that? or let's talk about women in morocco: is the goverment have been fair to them lately or not?
let me know what do you like to talk about ok?

12:47 pm    May 21, 2003
CASA ma ville:
wa alahe ir7ame li guale:
"casa ya casa wa lli mach ma ja"

12:46 pm    May 21, 2003

i think we should change the subject about casablanca, we talked enough about this issue.
and its the time to move on.

god bless morocco


12:41 pm    May 21, 2003
adnan i think you removed the wrong pic
negotiator, if you want to talk about why i sadi ahmed rami is a traitor you can email me at :

12:37 pm    May 21, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
Ok, just to keep this discussion related to Casablanca, I've removed the map of Morocco from the top, and put two maps in the Sahara discussion. One of them suggested by khaybaba message 273 the one posted on some government web site.. closest one can get to the government.

It's probably about time to change the Casablanca topic itself.



12:22 pm    May 21, 2003

12:16 pm    May 21, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
That was me

12:15 pm    May 21, 2003
Ahmed rami is Traitor AND AGAIN Because the GOV said so, because he doesn`t like the monarchie..., he is a Traitor because he took Part of the 2 coup d`etats 71-and 72... , you get 19 Years Prison if you say yes to the referundum, and we Give 10 Years to somebody who planning terrorist Acts (3 saudis) I believe that this is none sense....
OUR PRIORITY is SECURITY, ma9eddinach nkhadmou 7etta lli f rabat bou7dha 3ad radine kant3al9ou fine netfel9ou..,
The GOV is busy arresting Lemrabet, and the 14 Musicians for Stupid Things, or let`s put it this way for what they SAY (OPINIONS) and Leaving THOSE who were Preparing a MURDER...., that`s what we get when we focus on some thing and leave other thing...,
According to what Law do you Jail people for what they said ?? not for what they do...

12:09 pm    May 21, 2003

12:08 pm    May 21, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
Ara m3ak wa7ed corni dyel zari3a mgarmla,

Thanks for the map, but what is the actual original source excluding the emabssy in Korea. Sources are important. It also doesn't show borders with Algeria...



11:47 am    May 21, 2003
let me know if you need more and can you put it in this discussion too

11:46 am    May 21, 2003
wache ma bghache ihdikoume alahe iwa safi mane hade l kadia dial sahra rakoume ki atrag3ou ou safi hadrou mchi 7ajja oukhra

11:36 am    May 21, 2003
first of all, ahmed rami is jus a traitor, i don't consider him as a political refugee who wants good things to happen to Morocco he is just a SOB.
second, freedom of speech has its limits and i strongly agree with the gov to jail whoever advertizes for the polisario (they are nit resistance as adnane said but they are mercenaries).
third, i think the money spent on sahara is money well spent because it is for the sake of our territorial integrity which the primary thing that we have to care about.
forth, mourad you have misconception about the situation in sahara maybe 12 years ago i would've agreed with you that the situation is dangerous in the sahara but fortunately not now :) and even back then we were perfectly in control, we never lost any city neither we had lost any single meter of the sahara to the polisario.
fifth, back to nego, be sure that if they do referundum to any part of morocco they would decide to be an independent entity, but is that correct? NO
and lastly, adnan i think what you said is that you don't have an opinion or maybe you don't want to say it here!!!

11:34 am    May 21, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
Hello all,

I wanted to find a Morocco map photo online that doesn't say western Sahara in it but I couldn't find it. If you have one please send it to me or give me a link, I would appreciate that. I am not being sarcastic, I would like to put it next to the other one in the Sahara discussion just to show the view of Morocco and the view of the rest of the world, that will be fair I think:

Focused Discussions > Social > Sahara: Moroccan or Sovereign.



11:21 am    May 21, 2003
Salamu aleykum

Khuty, naalu shitane, the Sahara is NOT what we should be talking about at this point, let's put our differences aside - at least for now - and focus on the terrorist attack that took us all by suprise ... why do we always try to find a way to disagree, why don't we make an effort to agree and support one another ... LLayehdikum, aafakum, if you think about it, at least we all have something in commun ... our love to Morocco lahbib, whether we agree on other details or not, we all love Morocco and the bombing of Casablanca hurts us all, that's why we're here... aw la?

Yallahu naalu shitane, and keep the discussion healthy and instructive .. let's not worry about who's right and who's wrong, rakum dertiw b7al shi wa7ed msha l shi jnaza, o bda i arguyi about other things wella bda yedabez maa shi wa7ed akhur ... la 3ib aalina hadshi ...

LLAyehdina o khlas


10:36 am    May 21, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
Democracy, Freedom of speech... Bla bla bla...
and then look if you don`t say the sahara is Moroccan , or if you don`t show the moroccan Map with the sahara as Part of Morocco, they Jail you....
So are you with Democracy all the way or just some of democracy.., i mean the one you like...
Democracy is to let the People choose what they want, all of you heard about Lemrabet, that was jailed for 4 Years and 20,000.00 DHM and me the accusations is almassas bi we7dati alwa6an, because he showed an Interview of ahmed Rami who said he supportes the Auto determination of the sahraouis...,
la7awla wala 9ouatta illa billah...

9:55 am    May 21, 2003
Morning everyone!
Interesting that regardless of how clearly and concisely I tried to deliver messages, you still misunderstood them and picked only the parts, which alone make no sense ofcourse.
If I were you, I'd quote those two facts you are addressing. But more importantly I would read the posts again along with the posts pertaining to my posts yet this time carefully so that I don't miss the point.

Now I could explain it to you just as easily but it would be much more beneficial to you if you do it on your own...I hope you don't misinterpret this message as well.

Peace N Love

NB: If anyone knows why I brought up those two facts when I did, please explain to Aziz.


9:49 am    May 21, 2003
Try to find a map of Israel that says: Palestine????

Or try to find a map of Spain that says: Pais Vasco.

Do you know that pronouncing the word: Western Sahara in Morocco and in a Moroccan newspaper could get you to jail??

Do you know that posing a map in Morocco with such a line between Morocco and Moroccan Sahara is illegal.

Do you know that a Moroccan website qui se respecte doit eviter de mettre une carte de la sorte.

Do you know that Abraham Serfati was jailed for 19 years, stripped of his Moroccan citizenship then because he displayed a map like this one on a meeting in Rabat?

Do you know that the journalist Olivier Fermbach was fired from Medi1 for using the word Western Sahara in a news bulletin?

Do you know that changing that map doesn't cost a thing and shows some respect to the National cause and unity regardless of how the world sees the geography??



9:36 am    May 21, 2003
Thank God Western Sahara wasn't touched by such terrorist acts.

I love My country: Western Sahara.

I think what I just said is politically correct.


8:27 am    May 21, 2003
first of all stop saying that we all arabs becaseu i don't consider myself one i'm moroccan and berber ok?
second: the latest news are the police have found some chimical products already mixed and ready to be used, and they found this stuff in a home in darb takharouke.
here are some pictures of King's tour in Casa:
KHAYIBABA nharkoume sa3ide

8:08 am    May 21, 2003

Rasta Gnawi message

I am not trying to get into an arm-wrestling contest here; simply trying to understand a certain motivation. Please note that by discussing these points with you, I am not arguing whether the Sahara belongs to Morocco or not; I am discussing your arguments.

Your last post to me requested that I deny/explain the facts you had stated earlier. I, however, found very few facts to agree or disagree with. Please correct me, again, as sometimes one races through these posts trying to find something to read and often times misses interesting "facts." So, the facts; are we talking about whether Morocco had "invaded" Spain for 800 years? It is well documented in history books, but is of little relevance to the discussion (in my mind, again please correct me.) Are we talking about the Algerian journalist? Quite frankly it is not something I would normally come accross during the course of a day but something that I would not find surprising given the state of freedom of expression in our region.

So these are two facts I have found you stated before your post to me. If there is something else that I am missing, then let me know. I am always eager to know as much as possible about things that our government spends billions of dollars on.




7:41 am    May 21, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
Good morning all,


I am not qualified and wordly enough about the subject of Sahra to answer that question. I can only say that Sahra was definitely part of Morocco a long time ago, but the occupation of Morocco by France and Spain changed things around. The effect of imperialism as you see is still at work in our country Morocco. Morocco is trying to restore Sahra and its territorial integrity, I wish it the best of luck and plenty of peace and justice in the process. Morocco didn't intend this conflict to be this long, but things went different. I have faith that Morocco is working in good will with the UN and that it wishes to work in good will with the resistance and vice versa to solve this conflict. Again, I am not an expert so I cannot answer your question as black and white as you would like.



7:18 am    May 21, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
that MAP is used by the Rest of the world and guess what if it is a bigger Map you can read CLEARELLY THAT it says WESTERN SAHARA (OCCUPIED BY MOROCCO) YES i agree Moroccan Flags are there and the Sahara is moroccan as well as Mauritania, yla jina nhedrou 3la lbay33a w zide w zide walakine that`s what we believ in , and The west does not believe tin that, if the sahara is Moroccan(i believe it is) then why don`t we let the vote take place? 7iot khayfine sahraouine maradich yebghiw yeb9aw m3a lmaghrib, Even if i did my home work , and every body else did, STILL the GOV is lying to us, about a lot of stuff, dima kaygoulou l3am zine, l3am zine ,and look 41 people lost their lives because of this tahawen dial l GOV , IF the money that was spent on that conflict , is spent to educate these young men who went to blow them selves up in their brothers and sisyters they would be doing something good for their country by now...
la 7awla wala9ouatta illa billah,

4:30 am    May 21, 2003
sorry for the misspelling: using a foreign keyboard!

4:28 am    May 21, 2003
Do u sometimes sleep u guys or do u spend your night in front of raioo?:)
FIRST OF ALL LET'S GO BACK TO THE TOPIC OF CASA BOMBING!!!On dirait une classe de dissip?s! There is already a forum about the sahara subject so go there.
Second, i know that there are awful and terrible things happening in the western and we morrocans? NEVER get informed about such things! For ex the prisonner camps in BOTH sides: it's a medieval vision really.Another example is that school they never explained this war to us as if it did not exist.
THIRD: nationalism may be good but morroco wasted a lot of money in this never-ending fight.Until when are we gonna throw this money instead of investing it in education etc..
THIRD: again this prooves that we arab countries love to fight each other: here is a war that keeps algeria and morroco busy for decades,for the profit of whom? i wonder...
End of sahara.
Now back to the topic: did you hear that morrocan authorities started to "clean "the armiy from it islamists fellows?
rafa3atkoumou salama les potes.

4:23 am    May 21, 2003
I did not say u're hard headed.
I said we all moroccans are hard headed. And I was not mean, I could say Adnane u're rasak kasah, but as u noticed everybody is sticking to his opinion.
And I Sincerely see it this way :
Most of us is argueing for the sake of argueing.
Once again, we moroccan are more right fighters than objective.


4:23 am    May 21, 2003
I did not say u're hard headed.
I said we all moroccans are hard headed. And I was not mean, I could say Adnane u're rasak kasah, but as u noticed everybody is sticking to his opinion.
And I Sincerely see it this way :
Most of us is argueing for the sake of argueing.
Once again, we moroccan are more right fighters than objective.


1:48 am    May 21, 2003
You are right Moulzarri3a, in details, the court said that. Al Bai3a was not valid as far as they could say. But you have to admit that it has summoned Morocco to immediatly withdraw its forces, which it has not, until nowadays.

I have never been there to tell the truth, and I can't say if Moroccan flags are everywhere, and especially if the inhabitants proudly expose them, or by force.
What is on the opposite true, is that our mkhaznia are having quite a hard time controlling the region (otherwise, we will not have prisoners, and we will not have to lauch repressive campaigns againts civilians, like what happened few years ago in Laayoun).

I should also watch my English, you are right. What I wanted to say by "in the field", is simply an international recognition of that territory as being Moroccan. Even our staunching allies do not recognize it (ex. France).

I personnally am not an expert in this subject. The only opinion I have is that the Sahara is economically important for Morocco (Boukraa Phosphates mines are the biggest in Morocco, Iron mines, and fishing). However, the money that Morocco has been pouring for years inthere (double solde for everybody, subsidised commodities, military expenses) could in my opinion have been used in education, or in other important domain.

Anyway, my main point is that things we have been told are not totally right (in this topic and others.) And what I don't agree with is our stubborness in defending issues while being totally subjective.



1:18 am    May 21, 2003
before saying that the intenational court said that the sahara is not moroccan, you should do your homework and do a research about it because, my friend, the international court actually did recognize that there is bay3a between the sahara and morocco but they sai the the bay3a is not legal because they don't have sufficient religious and cultural background to fully understands what it means. so there is no such a thing such as the intennational court said the sahar is not moroccan. and by the way, on the field you can go there and see for yourself Moroccan flag everywhere and Morccans everywhere there is no such thing su ch as polisario in the region, furthermore you can easily travel arround without any problems which supports that in the field is not theirs and not as you said "but in the field IT IS NO"

12:53 am    May 21, 2003
You North American guys are impressive in writing messages....I take advantage that you all folks are sleeping to drop some lines....(h?h?h?...).
I really like this discussion. It just shows how concerned we are, and how diversified the views are.
All of us, beautiful and wise and educated people should be the first to be objective, and not to fall in the trap of propaganda, be it from our beloved country, or our beloved culture.

The Sahara might be Moroccan in our hearts and imagination, but in the field IT IS NOT !! or at least it is not recognised by the international community as such.How many of you rememeber what we learnt in the books of Tarbia al Watania, about "mahkamat al adl addawliya", etc. Well, let me tell you a little secret: The world court of The Hague has actually sentenced the opposite: that the Sahara is not Moroccan, that Moroccon forces should immediately leave the Sahara, and that elections be held freely by its own people. (cf. web site)

Adnane is right guys, we arabs and mulims always take for granted facts that lift up our ego. En plus, on est litt?ralement incapables de se remettre en cause, surtout cot? religion. Rien n'est de notre faute, tout est la faute des autres (juifs, am?ricains, conspiration,...). Il faut qu'on arr?te de nous faire des films les gars.

Our intellectual advantage guys (compared to the bulk who did not have our chance to open up) is to bring this openess and objectiveness in handling issues. If we don't admit that we are falling in the ground, it would be hard for us to stand up.


P.S. Let's get back to the real topic of the discussion.


12:17 am    May 21, 2003
Adnane, you still didn't answer my question!!!
maybe you didn't know about the conflict back home because you didn't do your homework! execuse me but everybody knows what's going on in the sahara so don't tell me your GOV is liying to you unless of course you have doubts about the moroccanity of the sahara. the map used by this website is the map usually used by polisario for their propaganda and if we do use the same map we are just helping them achieving what they want. as of Sebta and melilia, you don't make any sense bro because all parts of morocco are the same south or north and beside that sahara issue (sepparatists) is different than sebta and melilia (occupation) so the ways we approach each issue should be different.

12:14 am    May 21, 2003
plz change the pic .Put pic whit all morocco wiht sahara moroccan

10:38 pm    May 20, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
No body is Right and No Body is Wrong.
we Moroccans , actually Arabs, we like to hear and see what we like, we don`t care if it`s a lie.
NOW we all know that there is a conflict in the Sahara, BUT before when we were Kids , did we know?? I DIDN`T we always hear sahara marghibia but never understood why they were teaching us this. and we always see the Moroccan Map with the sahara as Part of Morocco, WHY didn`t they tell us from the Beggining , that hey this is how the Situation is, so we can understand, NO THE LIED TO US, if my GOV lied to me about something that means kayna fiha dghoul had l9adiya..,
Baraka man kedbou 3la rassna, wenkedbou 3la wladna, amma sebta w melilia ma9edrouch ykedbou 3lina, 7it bayna, kaygoulou assalibatayn, wa7na makhdinach 7etta hadou lli jaw f ardna wbinatna, 3ad ghadi nakhdou hadick lli jat feljanoub ...,
Adnane, Keep the Map as it is, Better see the Truth than to see a lie.
I want the sahara to be Moroccan, walkine hada lli 36a allah,

9:49 pm    May 20, 2003
I was not confused, in fact that's what i meant, and many people will feel the same. Anyway Adnane, I do not know who is right me or you, but Good night, and Allah may may help Morocco.
tsab7o 3la kheer les enfants :)

9:42 pm    May 20, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
Bahja you said: "en plus You can avoid telling people everytime that they can leave the room if they do not like your thoughts"

Where did I say that ? As far as I am concerned everyone is welcome. Maybe you are confusing that with my asking the posters to switch their Sahra related messages to the forum that was designated for that topic a while back.

Ok, one more then, for the ancestors and familly, yes I'm proud, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I should agree with everything they did ! and I am not talking here about Sahra in specific, I am talking in general. One thing we don't inherit from ancestors is their circumstances. Different circumstances may create new challenges for us, may require us to adopt new mindsets. You never know what your ancestors would think of that mindset, maybe they'll be disappointed, or maybe they'll be proud you did the right thing.

Regards and good night.


9:29 pm    May 20, 2003
i'll ask you a direct question i hope you will answer me. do you or do you not believe that that the sahara is a part of Morocco?
i want to hear YOUR opinion. yes or no?

9:19 pm    May 20, 2003
I accept that, but I always try to be understanding and forgiving. You are doing good job by making this website, but you just need to be more understanding and tolerate people more than everyone (anta moul addar za3ma), en plus You can avoid telling people everytime that they can leave the room if they do not like your thoughts. I think you can do better, and you will. It was very good topic here and people shared alot of knowledge and ideas. You told me one time they you are very proud of your ancestors and that's why people were telling you that those ancestors who faught for Sahara will not like your map! Still it is the legal map in UN.
Best of luck

9:12 pm    May 20, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
Bahja and Casaoui, why do you have to say I am hard headed...

It's all relative.

When you point THE finger to someone and tell them they're hard-headed or whatever you're attributing them with, remember and remember well, that THREE fingers will be pointing right back at you from your own hand.


9:01 pm    May 20, 2003
Sorry guys the phrase in between brackets (and NOT because he is a bad person). Cheers

8:57 pm    May 20, 2003
I think that you are right Casaoui, we should all step back. We are supposed to be the best Moroccan fellows, well educated and wise, so if we start blaming and isulting and going after each other, then we should expect from poor illeterate poeple worst than what they did in Casablanca. I think that we all in Moroccan rasna kassa7 and that's why we are 3rd world countries in my opinion,cuz we do not listen and sometimes we know we are wrong and we do not accept the change and we even feel ashamed to recognize it. I think Adnane was agressive sometimes, and so was everyone. guys just try to forget that you are Moroccans and pretend you are from the west and when typing a message be polite and respect the other, and think that the other may be wrong just because he does not know enough (and because he is a bad person). The map is legal, but as being Moroccans, which what Arabi was saying, we should avoid posting it like that cuz we still have not lost the case, and because Morocco invested so much money in it, and because the world needs more geopolitical entities and not division among countries. We need more peace in this world and more wise people.
Allah ysma7 lina.

8:57 pm    May 20, 2003
i don't agree with adnanegetlost, there's nothing wrong with the map posted here, adnane's absolutely right, the western sahara is not internationally recognized as a part of morocco even though we were taught in school that it is.
honestly, it's a waste of time discussing that map issue, let's move on, and whoever needs any political science class to take it's time to do it Mr adnanegetlost plus one class that teaches good manners!

8:46 pm    May 20, 2003
nobody here has the right to accuse anybody for not being moroccan or not we are here to talk and share ideas.

thalwe f rasatkoume


8:25 pm    May 20, 2003
No need for all this.
this conversation is upseting most of us.
Even I don't agree with Adnane on this Map issue, but we should at least respect him and ask him without offending him.
U know what everyone of us, if he was in the situation of Adnane, even he think all of u is right, he play head games just because of the way u talk to him.
after all we're all moroccans and we are hard headed.

So guys hold back ur horses and show more respect.


7:55 pm    May 20, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
Arabi and co, you have the right to disagree with the map, I am not taking that right from you, otherwise I would have censored your messages or banned you from posting in the first place, do you agree with that ?

You have the right to discuss the history of the region, the fate of the region, the implications,

You have the right to showcase your knowledge about the area, your arguments, your sources, your solutions, things that you find challenging in the conflict, things that you find contradicting, your assumptions, your constraints,

You have the right to be biased, to be neutral, to be patriotic, to be nationalist, to be Moroccan, to be Polisario, to be Algerian, to be Tunisian, to be American, French, Chinese, Israeli, Palestinian,

You have the right to be yourself,

You can't be absolutely successful all the time in making someone else be like yourself, think like yourself, behave like yourself, look at history like yourself, look at the present like yourself, look at the future like yourself, interpret the world like yourself,

That's all the right you have as a visitor to RAIOO.COM

For everyone, you may continue your discussion about Sahara in the appropriate forum that was opened a while ago -- if you feel like it of course -- that way messages will be related to the topic over there:

From Focused Discussion in the right menu,
click on Social,
and then click on the Sahara link.



7:15 pm    May 20, 2003

Aziz Bezza message
Message 235
It's a good news that you are out ,after all "out" is your real heven.Your statments reflect who you are.If you disagree don't be disrespectful.your words give us the great picture about how much of intelect you are.

6:40 pm    May 20, 2003

You remind me what happened in iraq, I ve been watching iraquis before the war, and how angry and ready to die for saddam, for iraq, you now these "chiarates dial" : birrouh, biddam nahmik ya saddam etc and remember the mother f'' sadam telling the arab world and his own ppl that he is gonna win.. what happened later..We all know.. we should be more realistic, objectif and make sure we dispose the necessary tools to acheive our goals..


dak chi dial hna, o dak chi hada, walou mannou..

we should learn the past to overcome the present and future

Taigoulou lamgharba, Al kalb_hachak_ li kay nbah..matay addch


6:33 pm    May 20, 2003
i,m out here guys,cuz this stupid adnane still playing with our feelings, he,s not a moroccan guys watch out! he,s a polisario spy, or maybe just an algerien shit,
u guys are talking about casablanca bombing and a lost of a lot of innocent lifes ,this guy doesnt respect the thousands of moroccan lifes lost in moroccan sahara, if i cant say millions of lifes. i will just suggest that u,ll boycott his website and sue him.
dont worry adnane your website will be banned soon pro polisario jerk! ,

6:29 pm    May 20, 2003

Aziz Bezza message
Nothing is wrong .it's question of reality versus fiction!!!
you still did not answer my questinos.
Thank you anyway.

6:13 pm    May 20, 2003
I followed the discusions live this evening and I am so happy to find out how moroccans no matter what their backgrounds are, shaleh, rifi, sahraoui, arabi fassi and so one ..we r all concerned about our bled_ I think no one is or will be capable to give away an inch of morocco land..
Regarding Almoudir, i don t see that he is not as a moroccan proud as any of as..He is doing a great job, and the map published above reflects the real situation and recognized by UN..What's wrong with it..Anyway, our army is there, drapeau marfoua fi assama, plus dirhams is circulating as well.
Sahra dialna..

6:03 pm    May 20, 2003
keep it up guys it seems like an endless conversation.
Khayibaba kay hanikoume 3la hade l7amase we should be in "bel wadi7e" or "wajiha" in 2M i like what i'm reading ofcourse i do have my saying but it seems like you guys are so focused in your conversation that you don't see what other people write.

5:58 pm    May 20, 2003
The answer for all these questions is implied in this singular question to you.
What is wrong with the fact a Moroccan objecting to showing a false map of Morocco in a (Moroccan) website?

Shouldn't that be expected from each and every Moroccan concious of the sacrifices made in/for that region? you tell me!!

NB: I now am arguing the idea of which certain people are ok to post a map like that on a (Moroccan) website.

Peace N Love


5:47 pm    May 20, 2003

Aziz Bezza message
I have some questions for you if you don't mind answering them.

1-If you buy a world map from any stationery in the world and you find out it does not contain the sahara,would you still feel the same way?

2-Are you haunted ever since you were a little by this issue?

3-Do you cosider your self patriotic when you stand adamant and inflexible over this matter?

4-Do you think the display of the above map undermines our cause?

5-Do you believe that the ongoing process of auto determination relies on the showing of any particular map? what is the positif or negatif impact?

6-What kind of satisfaction would you get from posting your type of map?(please exclude sentiments).

Thank you Arabi.
PS:No mean to weaken your position.


5:40 pm    May 20, 2003
First, you have successfully succeeded to confuse the logic out of me. Would you please pin point the so-called "different" premise I used. The logic I presented has no assumtion antecedently supposed as a basis. The Basis I presented is a simple GIVEN fact. I'd appreciate it if you enlighten me with the misterious permise on which I relied.
Second, concerning the Moroccan sahara, taboo WHAT!?! hehehehhe where did you come up with that? How do you know that I do not wish peace in the region? ohhh I see, may be the impression I gave you when I said that the map you have posted is a flase one and should be removed. No no wait may be when I said that Moroccans sacrificed their lives so that when you make a website you post a Moroccan map similar to the you have here. Yeah! now that it crossed my mind, a peaceful solution the problem is taboo huh!! ;0)
Adnane, you said I was haunted by Driss-Bassri-like control...hehehhe...crazy enough you should beleive that. You on the other hand is haunted with a foolish pride for which you do not want to replace that map. But no worries everything happens in due time.

Dreams are all we have..dream big achieve more. I am sorry that you get nested dreams, sore body, and unfinished "business" this happens mainly if you have no focus in life quite similar to a teenager in the process of finding oneself yet still full of foolish pride.
I find it extremely heartwarming that you BOTHER to understand. But it would much better if you start with the region that is yourself may be you'll find out things that would boggle your mind. keep your head up and in mind that change is good for any of us.

Peace N Love


5:22 pm    May 20, 2003
i don't understand man, ach jab l bassri lhadra, Arbi said that the map you posted is wrong and it hurts a lot of proud Moroccans, which you seem not to be one of them. and also you seem to not care about our feelings as Moroccans, you know what let's see how democrat you are and put a poll on your website about whether the map should be posted like it is or like you want it and let the people decide, or are you playing it like "it's my website i do whatever i want" if so please let me know so i can take appropriate measures.
PS: either you are with us, or you are against us there is nowhere in between

4:32 pm    May 20, 2003

Adnane Ben. message

The premise you have put afront is Arabi; however you are starting your logical argument in message 225 with a totally different premise just so that you can draw your wanted conclusion as a response to message 221. The premise you are starting with is Morocco. I invite you to reconsider your premise by changing it to be Arabi, just as your nick entails, and as message 221 emphasized on. Let's see how that will draw your Moroccan nationality.

For you, showing borders between Western Sahara and Morocco, trying to understand the historical events that led to the conflict, promoting negotiation and peace instead of fight, and being part of a peaceful and just solution to this challenging conflict, all that for you is taboo. For me it is not. You put your head in the sand like an austriche. That is exactly where we differ regardless of our nationalities. I bother to understand the reality of the region for my sake of learning, regardless of big brother watching over me, regardless of Driss-Bassri-like control which seems to haunt you still. I like to dream, just like you, but I wake up; otherwise I would be having nested dreams, a numb body and unfinished business.



3:33 pm    May 20, 2003
just one clearification a khouya NOt every morocan is an Arab. I don't consider myself arab at all i'm berber chal7e and proud to be moroccan also but not arab i do speak the language (you should see me now try to read the news in arabic man kanthaja:)).

I know that there are talks btw Spain and Morocco abou these 2 cities, and incha alahe we are going to get them back.
everybody is saying this and that and we should do that and we should change that. but my question is are we going to be able to make these changes? and for people who are saying reinstate Lbasri i'll tell them do you want to live the past again? yeah he could something NOW but what comes after is more serious and cretic.
First of all we have to see how does the originazional chart of the moroccan goverment looks like so we can see and point and the flaus (people in IT consulting know what i'm talking about). And then we have to make a very analitical studies to come up with the right changes for short and long trems. i can go on and on but it's not apropriate for this topic.
Let's go back to casa and i wish to say LBARAK F RASE L FAMILA DIAL BAGGER ancient jour de RAJA.
khayibaba ki7ayikoume mane mal3abe sharibe bel mohammadia:)
la gang thalla f raskoume ou f khoutkoume.


2:04 pm    May 20, 2003
Yes indeed you are wrong about me. Yes, I have been down in our Moroccan Sahara, and I have keen respect for our citizens in the south.

Regarding my nickname even though it is quite irrelevant.
- Morocco is a SUBset of Arab world.
- I am Morccan.

Therefore, when I say Arabi 7ta Nmout it automaticaly implies that I am Moroccan 7tan Nmout.

Ssi Amine it seems like you are arguing for the sake of arguing, but can you actually deny any of the facts I have previously stated? If so, please explain.

We Moroccans have the right to not give up on our dreams. I am not saying that we'll regain our land tomorrow. At least I believe that the land is a Moroccan territory and one day, may be I won't be there, we'll have it back. What is so rhetoric about this.

NB: Please chanlenge the facts I have previously stated. (Please read prev msg again if needed)

Peace N Love


1:37 pm    May 20, 2003
Arabi..., I agree with you concerning the issue of Moroccan Sahara, but this web site is managed by Adnane, and he does not share the same idea as we do have. He could have just put the map with the peace that show northern Morocco and avoid all these problems. Assuming he is not UN and not Polisario. It is very late now to say Sahara is not Moroccan, we should not doubt it at any moment, cuz if it is not moroccan then it is Algerian! To go back to our main topic, I think that the best thing to do, as Muslims in western countries, we should behave ourselves well, and try to give a good image about our religion, and sometimes use verses from Koran that show the message of our religion, message of peace and after all Islam is not a new religion; it is an update of Judaism and Christianity.

1:00 pm    May 20, 2003
3arabi haetta tmout

Sorry pal, that's the rhetoric we've hearing for so long. Get over it, man. We are a bunch of moroccan that should bring something new a hope for those very kid you're talking about. Would'nt we fail if our own children should ever stuggle the same shit we have endured.


12:36 pm    May 20, 2003
It is not an illusion, but I a belief that someday we'll regain our land. A correct map of Morocco is not an illusion but a reminder to all of us and our kids (don't have any yet) that the fight is still going and that we will never give up. We may be "not doing" anything about Sebta and Melilia as of now but I am sure once we can we will.
Keep in mind that we occupied Spain for nearly 800 years and they still regained their independence.

Peace N Love


12:31 pm    May 20, 2003

Rasta Gnawi message

You ask the question: "are you Moroccan or Polizario?" Your nick name suggests that you are an Arab, and doesn't indicate that you care about nationality. In fact, your name makes the claim that you are an Arab until you die. Quite profound words for someone who would post meaningless rethoric about an area he most likely hasn't visited or bothered to understand (do correct me if I am wrong as I don't know you at all.)

So which is it then, Arabi until you die, or Moroccan until you die. And no they are not the same; a claim to Arabic identity should nulify a claim to any other regional identity, just as being muslim supercedes being Arab or Indian.




12:23 pm    May 20, 2003
Arabu hatta tmoutou, are you happy at least ceuta and melilia are part of morocco in this map. Are you happy with this illusion.

12:20 pm    May 20, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
Arabi, that was an excellent question, the answer to which is that I am Moroccan.



12:06 pm    May 20, 2003
Adnane since you asked in your last posted message, I am delighted to reinstate my point of view once more about the flase political map you have on your (Moroccan) website.
To show you the seriousness of this issue, an Algerian news reporter lost his job and almost his life when he mistakingly said on TV that M6 is visiting the MOROCCAN sharah. Now See this is not a joke, posting that map on your webstie has a lot of meanings to it, so as Moroccan you have the responsibilty to clearify your position...I along with many here tried to express our frustration and concern to you, but you remained careless.
The separatists "Polizario" use that map. Morocco uses the real map. my question to you is: Are you Moroccan or Polizario?

I personally do not care which side you are on because that will not change the persone you are. However, it would be fair for me and others to know who we are addressing. I hope you get the point.

NB: Please do not give us any crap about the confilct not being settled. This is about what you beleive in.


12:00 pm    May 20, 2003
Salamou 3alaioukm,
thank u Adnane for giving a chance every expressing his point of view and his interpretation of what our city been trough last week.
Your last message summarizes all what has been said, I agree with most of the point of ur last post.
I only want to add one more thing to the WHAT can be done section.
After all this attacks arround the world committed by groups pretending their belonging to Islam, and this does not help any muslims. We really need to do something about this situation, we need to correct the image of Islam in people's mind. HOW ?
In my opinion, the best thing is to act in the way of the curan in our work, school, and any community we're involved in. There is lot of things we can do help the others even they're not muslims, show Courtesy, avoid evil like Lying cheating, etc. I believe this is the best way to regain our Image in the west society.
And thanx again Adnane, this is a great forum and thanx to all the brothers n sisters who shared their opinions with us.



11:16 am    May 20, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
If you allow me to summarize what this discussion has yielded so far, at least as a reflection for myself and I may be wrong in interpreting your sincere and valuable contributions so correct me if I missed.

People have condemned the attacks without any doubt. Also people expressed their condoleances and support for the famillies touched by these attacks. Thank you for being sympathetic.

In trying to make a guess WHO could have done this, most people pointed fingers to local muslim extremist groups; these extremist groups were condemned for being symptomatic agents of hatred towards anyone who doesn't fully adhere to their interpretation of Islam in everyday life; some pointed fingers directly to bin ladin, some pointed fingers to anyone with a beard, some pointed fingers to anyone who mixes Islam with government, any political party that promotes reform through Islam principles. The theme revolved around Islam.

In trying to make a guess WHY this was done. some people pointed fingers directly to the religion of Islam, others tried to make a distinction and free Islam from these accusations, others blamed the middle east palestinian-israelo conflict, some blamed the USA, others blamed the lack of socio-economic projects in Morocco, which negatively affects the poor and kills all their hope for a better life.

In trying to make a guess WHAT can be done to avoid such attacks, some people suggested the re-appointment of former interior minister Driss Bassri for his infamous ways of fanatically dividing the government vision from the people vision, usually the rebels. Others suggested to reinforce cooperation with the USA and its allies. Others suggested a more internal solution to solve the gigantic illiteracy problem, encourage socio-economic projects that can aspire hope in lower class and give them a feeling that they are protected and thought of; and encourage more progressive research in areas of science to open new development opporunities.

In the midst of this discussion, observations were made regarding the map of Morocco above which doesn't reflect the Moroccan sovereignity of the western sahara. Some condemned this and asked for the replacement of the map with one that reflects the Moroccan soveriegnity of the western sahara. Others suggested to keep it as it is because it reflects the present real political status of the region.

I am sure I must have missed on important points you made, if so, you may want to list them again briefly so new people can digest (very unlikely new visitors will read all discussion trail).

Also I'd like to add a point. It seems to me that after more than 1400 years from its inception, Islam's message is still peace, and that is a good sign. What is unfortunate after all these 1400 years is that Muslims, when constrained by poverty and social injustice, are still incapable of articulating, in a peaceful way and as a whole society, the priorities of the message of Islam to positively effect their status quo.


9:44 am    May 20, 2003
Pour r?pondre ? ceux qui insultent et accusent les islamistes, j' aimerais leur dire qu'au lieu d' attaquer ? ces peronnes il faudrait se demander pourquoi ces attentats ont eu lieu? pourquoi les presum?s des attentats sont issus des quartiers les plus pauvres de casablanca?
J'oserai donner une r?ponse qui est simple comme bonjour ce sont les AUTORIT?S MAROCAINES QUI SONT RESONSABLES DES ATTENTATS. On est entrain de vivre dans un cercle vicieu "APPAUVRISSEMENT- ATTENTATS".
Enfin, je profiterai de cette occasion pour presenter mes condoleances aux victimes des familles marocaines. In Lillahi Oua Ina Illahi Rajioun.
Salam Alaikom

8:52 am    May 20, 2003
I was hopping i could get somes reactions about my last messages.

Unfortunately, some brothers still accuse Islam about what happen.
Believe these all "FETANES" the definition of fitna is the confusion between what is right and what is wrong, with fitanes we don't make a difference between good and evil. So pls brother beware of what's happenning.
Not everybody who hold a beard or dresses like a pakistani is terorist or a potential terrorist.
U can find terrorists dressing muslims and u can find terrorists dressing like westners.
What i noticed from this forum, is that lot of brothers and sisters, when they hear some one talking about Islam, think he's an Islamist.
Even the word Islamist have been misused. An Islamist is some one trying to get to power in the name of the Islam. We're getting a lot confused and we need to wake up. Otherwise, we're going to acuse not guilty people, which is very bad.
We have to understand this, it is very very very hard to distinguish between a terrorist and simple muslim. Even Amercian intelligence are not able give a profile to a terrorist. they say they among muslims but they can point finger to every muslim who holds a beard. In North America even after what happen u can still see people with beard and a pakistani dresses travelling in air planes, entering public crouded places, etc.

I agree with marroqui, whether we like it or not, Education is number one priority in morocco.
Because with education we can better fight against terror and education our youth is going to be easiely brainwashed or manipulated by terrorists groups.



8:13 am    May 20, 2003
je voulais juste vous demander si quelqu'un sait ou on pe voir 2m en direct.c la seule chaine ki parle le plus de l' quelqu'un pe me filer un tuyau ca sera bien gentil de sa part

7:32 am    May 20, 2003

Adnane Ben. message

Try to contact the knowledge sharing group at The World Bank, this service is especially designed to answer these kind of questions from the public. The contact info is here (phone) for questions about Noth Africa.


6:46 am    May 20, 2003

Rasta Gnawi message
Salam everyone and my condolences to all those directly affected by the tragedy.

Does anyone know where to find statistic for litteracy rates in Morocco prior to indepence. I've been trying to finish and article but some critical historical data escape me and make some of the points very hard to make.

Thanks again and hang in there everyone. Marroqi is right. What happened was the direct result of the government's failure to protect the young through education and hope. What one reaps is what one sows.


6:39 am    May 20, 2003
revenons au sujet d'actualit?:
je pense que ce qui s'est pass? vendredi soir ? casablanca est en grande partie une conc?quence de l'ignorance et de l'absense de projets sociaux efficace qui pourraient donner l'espoir qu'un jours il y aurait moins de pauvres aux maroc. Les jeunes dans des milieux d?faforis?s cherchent alors le changement. peut etre le changement de tout le systeme politique ce que propose justement les organisations islamistes extr?mistes, qui au lieu d'essayer de rentrer dans le systeme politique actuel pour s'exprimer essaient caremment de provoquer une sorte de r?volte ou de r?volution islamique.
si nos parties politiques proposaient de vrais projets socio-?conomiques avec de vraies prises de position, au lieu de chanter tous la meme chanson, ces extr?miste auraient surement moins de chance d'arriver aux coeurs des jeunes.
un dernier point, je crois que le probl?me fondamental ? r?soudre au maroc est celui de l'?ducation. c'est absurde d'aspirer ? une r?elle d?mocratie si 60% de la population est analphab?te et un grande majorit? du reste inculte. la scolarit? devrait etre obligatoire jusqu'? 16 ans et la recherche scientifique devrait etre developp?e.

6:21 am    May 20, 2003
salut ? tous!
je crois que vous etes un peu hors-sujet. Le probl?me du Sahara ne sera pas r?solu si on l'?face de la carte, est il vauderait mieux que nous, marocains, commencons ? voir les choses en face si on veut r?ellement r?soudre nos probl?me. quand j'?tais au maroc je n'avais aucune id?e sur la gravit? du probl?me saharien je ne savais meme pas en quoi consistait r?ellement le probl?me. et cela ? cause de la t?l?vision au maroc qui ne cesse de cacher au marocains la v?rit? et leur faire croire qu'il vive dans un pays heureux ou tout est positif alors que c'est tout ? fait le contraire.
je comprends que ca d?range qqs uns que la carte divise le maroc en deux mais malheureusement c'est la r?elle situation du maroc dans les lois internationales est il faut la voir en face. je pr?f?re cel? plutot que de nous voiler la face avec une carte qui n'existe qu'au maroc.

4:19 am    May 20, 2003
salam to all moroccans.
first i,m verry upset about this map dividing morocco, plz stop this shiiit, or we will boycot this site all off us ok.
secondo i will send all my condolences to all the victims familly, i also ask moroccans here in us to collect money for those famillys.
the poverty of moroccans and the corruption of the people in power is the real cause of this tragedy, so instead of analysing funny pics all moroccans must bring ideas about how to fight poverty and support the real democracy in morocco.
thank you

3:43 am    May 20, 2003
Salam !
Awwalan ouridou an ou3azzi jami3 afrad 3a2ilate da7aya hadihi al wa9i3a al moufji3a wa jami3 al maghariba dakhil wa kharij ard al watane al 7abib
wa a9ol kama 9ala ikhwanouna fi masiratihim fi ribate

mais la je veux signaler aussi une chose qui m' a attire l' intention sur l' article si dessus on voit la carte du maroc avec la capital, la ville qui a ete attaquer qu' est casablanca mais si on voit juste un peu toute en bas y a une ligne qui divise le maroc en deux chose que je n' arrive pas a comprendre ! pour vous laissez circuler ce type de carte et comme tout le monde le sait la sahara est marocaine, etait marocaine et elle restera pour toujours marocaine ce que je demande mnt c' est de refaire une autre carte sur cette article car les gens vont croire peu a peu qu' il existe vraiment un etat au sahara
wa salamou 3ala man ittab3a el houda


2:11 am    May 20, 2003
moul javil
salamo alikom
choufou noudo fiko rakom ghir katkharfo kolkom, nkad hta ana ken kharef bhalkom, le maroc est en danger on ait ds une situation ou les analyses de ce qu c est passe le vendredi ne suffisent pas pour mieux comprendre les choses au maroc ,il y a l 1 de vous ki a cite bassri et demande leur retour, tu sais deja que cette situation de merde est 1 consequance de la politike de bassri et il y abcp de bassri au maroc lah inazel 3lihom lghadab, les isaraliens qui tuent nos freres palestiniens pour la terre sainte et pour des cause religieuse, nous les maroccains on tue pour tuer et pour melanger les patates avec les chemises blanche, bassri a " galess bnadem 3al kar3a" moi ici en allemgne ,les gents ici travaillent et sont correct pour le mieux des allemands et pour qu ils puissent etre sous le soleil pas sous la terre comme des vers, moi je vais pas comparer l allemagne avec le maroc c est incomparable, prenons l espagne c est un bon exemple pour nous, mais les gents je le dis et le mal ds mon coeur pensent seulement au " LAHJER,LAFLOUSS,KHABES ...etc" comme si on ait fait pour ca seulement, cette situation de non confiance au sois et au autres va nous entrainer ds l age des denosaurs. bon on critique c est bien mais ou est la solution , a mon avis on doit develloper l education et changer notre montalite premierement, puis la demokratie la demokratie et la demokratie et apres on peut parler des invistissements .....etc

1:47 am    May 20, 2003
En ce qui concerne l'avion dont j'ai parl?, il s'est enfin montr?, c un avion ? 2 moteurs ( khfifa ) qui fait le tour de Rabat depuis la matin?e, mais bon il d?scend et puis il d?colle, bizarre non?
et moi ki croyais faire un live exclusive hahahahaha
yallah Bonne journ?e les amis

1:33 am    May 20, 2003
>> Sur CNN Arabic ils disent qu'il n'y a aucun lien entre les commanditaires des attentats de CASA et Al Qa3ida.

I think so too, from the day that we say ok to name a 7izeba as islamist they made a green light to al Qa3ida, if you come back each year to Morocco you will see the difference: the way the people start to dress is changing : more people with la7eya tewila fe7ale ma3eze (sorry it's not for the smile) and clothes like the afghan..No more comment Yarabe i7efade lemaghibe menehoume. Our gov must act with basseri or not they must act


1:07 am    May 20, 2003
If you want to keep the map the way it is, then i think you should not call your website a Moroccan one because there is only one map that represents Morocco and the one that you are using is the anti-Moroccan one. Furthermore, arguing that the map posted in your website is the one recognized by the international community is very weak because as far as i know your ID says Moroccan not international community citizen. this is the map used by polisario, if you use it too you are just like them.

12:59 am    May 20, 2003
on a tous remarqu? les r?sultats des investigations marocaines, c'?taient rapide.
? Guantanamo, les USA ont pass? un an ou plus pour pouvoir tirer des informations, par contre, le maroc a pris moins de 24h!!!!
Comment ?a se fait? drole de question hehehe, le Maroc est le premier pays a avoir utilis? des bouteilles de coka cola ( verre et non plastique ) pour tirer des informations :P mais avec une bouteille de coka cola, il leur a fallu plus ke 24h pour ke ces terroristes parlent:P mais si on sait ke lmakhzan vient d'utiliser pour la premi?re fois son arme fatale: les bouteille d'Orangina hehehe on aura surement compris la rapidit? des evenements hehehe
P.S: S?rieux cette fois, ce matin ? Rabat, entre 5,30-6:30 j'ai entendu un son d'un avion qui jaillit dans le ciel, pour 30 min, et le son a disparu pour revenir apr?s 15min, et maintenant c environ 7:45 j'entends bien le son, et il vient de disparaitre; ?a n'a pas l'air d'un avion de chasse! mais c un peu ?trange!

12:50 am    May 20, 2003
I love CASA
Sur CNN Arabic ils disent qu'il n'y a aucun lien entre les commanditaires des attentats de CASA et Al Qa3ida.Si cela est vrai ,c'est que la situation est vraiment critique et que le gouv. marocain essaie de demontrer par ses propos l'incapacit? des groupes marocains ? agir seuls et qu'ils sont sous les ordres d'organisations etrangeres.

12:33 am    May 20, 2003
Am very proud too about how the government deal with this catastrophe. We will never surrender to terrorisme

12:17 am    May 20, 2003
Well everybody said his/her peace about the sahara and we should keep going with what's happening right now in Casa. I'm very proud of the way the goverment handles this case a friend of mine and me were saying that the police will get this assassins in less than a week. Well in less than 48 hours they got them, that's how we do it in "west side".
If we continue our discussion about Sahara and the map (which i don't care how it is designed because i know my country and its borders by heart), la discusion ne finira jamais temps que UN dit autrement.
Serenite pour le peuple maroccain

12:02 am    May 20, 2003
I love CASA
Wallah illa moussiba tsaltate 3lina.
Al maghrib kan fi la "merde" daba zadou kamlouha 3lina, bye bye le Tourisme, les investisseurs...rah machi b'lentihar ghadi n9adou lwad3iya. rahoum 3taw une "excuse" sahla lil houkouma pour un retour sans discussion du systeme BASRI.

11:19 pm    May 19, 2003
Je trouve inacceptable ce qui s'est pass? a Casa.Le Maroc a toujours ete un pays ou la paix regne. Nous ne devons pas nous laisser faire par une bande d'inbeciles qui pretendent tuer pour l'islam car l'Islam n'a jamais ete une religion violente.

11:05 pm    May 19, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
Ayur, I can remove the map, I can paint the western sahara with white and call it Moroccan sahara, but that is only going to satisfy their eyes. One should be able to see with the mind.



10:56 pm    May 19, 2003
En lisant qq commentaires, y avaient qq1 qui ont compar? l'attaque terroriste ? Casa vendredi dernier, ? ce qui se passe en Tchetchenie et Palestine. Tout d'abord, on ne peut pas comparer, car l? bas les gens d?fendent leurs pays, leurs lib?rt?, alors ils ont tout le droit de mettre en sc?ne n'importe quel genre d'attaque, mais ici au Maroc c diff?rent!!!! et je vois pas pq on fait expres de comparer, n'oubliez jamais que c grace ? Hizboullah que le sud libanais a ete lib?r?, et k'en Palestine, les gens ki sacrifient leurs vie pour que leurs freres vivent, ce sont des Chouhada, et en Tch?tch?nie, c le meme cas!!
Mais ici au Maroc, les gens ki ont commis ce crime, contre leurs propre fr?res, fr?res du sang, de religion, ... etc ce sont des terroriste ki s?me la terreur entre les marocains!
P.S: je crois ke le titre de cette discussion c "BOMB EXPLOSIONS IN CASABLANCA!" et non la Sahara Marocaine, et je crois qu'on est dans un pays d?mocratique, tu peux dire oui ou non pour la Sahara, et je crois que dans toutes les univ am?ricaines, y a ces genre de map, alors que personne ne parle!!! Adnane, je te sugg?re d'enlever la map, comme ?a on ?vitera de d?vier du principal sujet, Merci

10:47 pm    May 19, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
Bahja and Arabi, you already heard my opinion, go back and read it again. Also refer to message 185, it has some wisdom to it. The map is politically correct.

If you ask me whether the map is historically correct ? may be not. But then again, I live in the present, this discussion happens to be in the present and not during pre-Morocco invasion by Europe.



10:14 pm    May 19, 2003
Essi asnane, I would like to hear your feedback on the matter of Sahara (after reading the message of Arabi 7tta nmout). I think that he was right on his words.

9:33 pm    May 19, 2003
Que faire de Driss Basri ?

I agree, le 7assane houwa likane 3arefe lihoume!

En activit?, il ?tait envahissant; ? la retraite forc?e, Driss Basri devient encombrant. Sous Hassan II, on savait quoi lui faire faire; sous S.M Mohammed VI, on ne sait pas quoi faire de lui. Un vrai probl?me. Un Probl?me pour qui, au fait?


9:26 pm    May 19, 2003
Le jour ou on a reconnu et admis d'avoir un 7izebe soit disant "islamist" c'est foutus pour le veut dire quoi avoir un 7izebe isselamist si nous sommes des musulmants..

8:35 pm    May 19, 2003
he also mentioned the Assalafiya Al Jihadiya group... ???!@#$!!!!

8:32 pm    May 19, 2003
Mais ceci n?explique qu?en partie que Driss Basri exprime son ?amour? avec cette v?h?mence. Le roi, qui avait tent? de rassurer ses partenaires occidentaux sur la bonne sant? du ?processus d?mocratique? au Maroc, se voit contredit par l?ancien ?ma?tre manipulateur? des ?lections marocaines. M?me en disgr?ce, et soup?onn? de r?gler ses comptes avec le Palais royal, apr?s qu?on ait refus? sa candidature pour les ?lections l?gislatives, Basri n?agit pas en homme politique aigri. Dans le sillage du ?prince rouge?, en r?f?rence au r?fractaire Moulay Hicham, autre ?sniper? du royaume, Basri porte une critique au coeur du syst?me politique marocain, toujours r?gent? par les puissances du Makhzen et saupoudr? de ?monarchie d?mocratique? ? l?espagnole. L?emprise de la DST, de la DGED et des g?n?raux de l?arm?e marocaine sur le premier cercle du pouvoir marocain ont affaibli le royaume qui revient ? ses vieux d?mons r?pressifs et battent en br?che les arguments de ?rajeunissement des cadres?, de ?transparence politique? et de ?lutte contre la corruption? pr?n?s par Mohammed VI.

Basri vient de formuler un s?rieux avertissement sur les d?rives qui guettent le syst?me marocain. Hassan II, qui l??coutait, avait tout de m?me pr?serv? son tr?ne jusqu?? sa mort.

Do you think that these comment, made just 6 days before the bombings is a coincidence ????


8:29 pm    May 19, 2003
Les ?lections municipales viennent d??tre report?es de plusieurs mois sans explications, le mouvement islamiste radical ?Salafyya djhihadia? est en train de prendre racine, la tension avec l?Espagne est r?apparue apr?s la r?v?lation sur les accords des A?ores (pacte entre Washington et Madrid pour que cette derni?re garde les enclaves espagnoles de Ceuta et Melilla) et retour ? une r?pression syst?matique de l?opposition d?mocratique (affaire du journaliste Ali Lemrabet, du groupe des jeunes rockers, suspensions de ligues de droits de l?homme...). Le tout desservi par une croissance ?conomique en chute libre ? cause des mauvais chiffres du tourisme au Maroc.


8:28 pm    May 19, 2003
Basri s?en prend particuli?rement ? l?actuel Premier ministre marocain, Driss Jettou, qui incarne, selon lui, des ?technocrates qui sont actuellement au gouvernement sont un danger, car ils ne sont pas conscients du fait que ce qu?ils font est un danger pour le tr?ne?. Il consid?re que la monarchie est menac?e du fait que le Maroc a ?d?vi? du cheminement vers l??tat de droit et des institutions? du fait que Jettou ne repr?sente aucun parti. Driss Basri va plus loin en soulignant que les ?lections l?gislatives au Maroc du 27 septembre 2002 ont ?t? ?falsifi?s (...). Ce qu?ils ont fait n?est pas dans l?int?r?t du Maroc, ni de celui de l?institution monarchique, ni m?me dans l?int?r?t de Sa Majest? (Mohammed VI)?. L?ancien premier policier du royaume ajuste ?galement l?entourage du roi qui ?agit contre la volont? de Sa Majest??, sans citer les conseillers en question. Il s?expliquera ?galement sur les raisons de son limogeage de l?Int?rieur, estimant qu?elles sont dues ? son ?opposition franche au projet Baker? sur le conflit du Sahara Occidental, baptis? la ?troisi?me voie?. Basri conclut sa diatribe par une offre de service au roi, indiquant qu?il ?tait pr?t ? participer ? un nouveau gouvernement, ?mais qui rendrait compte aux ?lecteurs? et indique que ?tout ce que je dis est par amour pour Mohammed VI?. La violence des attaques de Basri contre le s?rail marocain renseigne sur le climat d?l?t?re qui r?gne actuellement au Maroc.

8:27 pm    May 19, 2003
Article Paru le 12/05/03 Coincidence????
Driss Basri avertit Mohammed VI

Dangers et d?rives au Maroc

Alors que le palais royal c?l?bre la naissance de l?h?ritier du tr?ne marocain, Hassan III, l?ancien homme fort du royaume, Driss Basri, est venu g?cher la f?te. En choisissant de critiquer le ?processus d?mocratique? au Maroc, estimant qu?il est menac?.

Ministre de l?Int?rieur durant plus de 20 ans, ombre de Hassan II et d?tenteur de tous les secrets du Makhzen, Driss Basri vient de jeter un v?ritable pav? dans la mare. Alors que les festivit?s battent leur plein apr?s la naissance du 16?me souverain de la dynastie alaouite, Driss Basri estime, dans un article publi? par le journal Hebdomadaire que la monarchie marocaine est ?assur?ment menac?e? et le pays ?sorti de la m?thodologie d?mocratique? apr?s des ?lections l?gislatives ?falsifi?es?.


8:04 pm    May 19, 2003

Aziz Bezza message
Even though it's not today's subject, The posting above doesn't hold any negative position whit regard to the Sahara,and Adnane doesn't strike me as a fello who aims to shrivel Morocco.The map is represented according to the international community perspective, other word the way citizens of the world view it.
It should be Ok,we have to accept it as long as the issue isn't settled yet.nevertheless,It's unfortunate to get too emotional over drawings.Feelings never solved any conflict, We rather base our thinking on real achievements,and lasting solutions.

7:58 pm    May 19, 2003
Sorry arabi hetta tmout, I did not mean to be disrespectful.

However, I have only reacted to a general statement that we usually hear in morocco and which has no sense. Furthermore, it only ingrains resignation and submission.

My reaction is the expression of my sickness. Sick of the lying, deceiving and betrayal.


7:25 pm    May 19, 2003
moul javil
I believe the problem of sahara is not a problem of morocco, this problem had been caused by Algeria and Spain, if we read history we notice the fact that nearly all dynasties of Morocco originate from the south near "dar3a river , near tiznit and exactly came from a lot of zawiya in sahara, if sahara recognized as Moroccan from world-wide then becomes Morocco more strongly and disturbs Spain and Algeria ,we musst say that morocco was strongly with sahara and our enemies know that ,and morocco would be strongly if he gets his territory officially from UN with petrole or not.

5:10 pm    May 19, 2003
that i was a quick change of subject, since i was a kid i've been thought that sahara is part of morocco and reading Morrocan history i'll say moritaniya IS also a part of morocco but we gave that up long time agao and that's something else. I don't care what UN or other countries say about the "western Sahara" i know and i feel that it is a part of my country and a part of my heritage. Let me give you an example: when a jaradarmi or polici stops you for nothing and takes you driving licence for nothing and i mean you haven't break the law in anyway, Then you have to go to LKOMISARIA to get your stuff and you don't get it till you pay a heafty some of money. You Know that you have the right to clam you licence without paying jack sheet but still you have to pay to get what's yours and the word here is YOURS.
i have more if anybody is not satisfied. FOR GOD SAKE even sahrawa say that they are moroccans.

4:52 pm    May 19, 2003
SSi Adnane,
The question is not whether the Saharah is Moroccan or not because to a Moroccan like many here there is no doubt about it. Your argument is simply invalid and this is why:
When Morocco was fighting for independence from the frensh, did Moroccans call their country France? I doubt that. If anyone did, then he/she was either a traiter or an imperialist. ( I am not calling you that, I am simply clearifying the seriousness of the matter). If you (in general) are Moroccan and "publicly" do not recognize the Sa7ra as an unseprable part of Morocco, then you are certainly backstabing all the people, who sacrificed for this cause one way or another. Why should we wait for the UN to tell us what belongs to us just like in the case of Sebta & Melilia. Here I dedicate this song to you and all Moroccans with pride. "Wel wad wadi ya sidi wel wad wadi, l3youn 3iniya saa9ya....."

Peace N love


4:37 pm    May 19, 2003
I agree with Arabi^7ta^Nmout, i mean u can use language if u want to have fun here, I understand we're between buds, but if anyone who want to argue about this subject, I sujest to use a proper language, this way we'll avoid to offend anybody.



4:29 pm    May 19, 2003
You, Mr intellectual, Mr smart, don't agree with me, but you had to expose it the way you did :)
clearly it is a very pathetic and childish attempt to show off your brain muscle(s) . Read your comments again, and you'll feel impressed with your choices of words yet impeccable and define your matrix-like logic..huh!
...Grow up

Peace N Love


4:24 pm    May 19, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
Arabi and others who would like to see a map of Morocco that includes Sahara: Morocco has not yet won the case. Do you understand this or not ? Don't lie to yourself, and live your life believeing your lie. Sahara may be Moroccan, yet there is still conflict over there, and there is prisoners, and there is soldiers. When the conflict is resolved, and when Sahara is returned back to Morocco with integrity then you will see the map change.

I have familly members who served in the desert, and I am not disrespecting anyone who was involved. Good for Morocco if it believes it is fighting a good fight to get back its land, and until they succeed and win a good fight then none is going to deny that Sahara be illustrated as part of Morocco in maps or other mediums.

Finally, there was a discussion a while ago about this very subject, you can read it here if you'd like. The Sahara: Moroccan Or Sovereign



4:22 pm    May 19, 2003
Guys i know that almost all of you will die for Morocco and i do 2. But i don't see any reasons for balming anybody becaseu IT"S TOOO DAMN LATE "LFASE JATE F RASE OU SAL DAME". As it happend in 94 we didn't know that people could carry arms in Morocco. so everything changed since that regarding buying fire amrs like hunting rifles. But Now they have sued Dyminate and that is more dangerous and fire arms i know people in the constructiong field that use the dyminate to break huge rocks as of Tuesday they will not be able to buy any more dynimate and they don't when they can so they are gonna be unemployed for while that hurts the economie as well as Tourism that was in deep shit whole and it's gonna hit bottom ot the pit and there it's goes the GOP of this year FIL L BYE BYE. we have to come up with solutions instead of sitting on our asses and crying like those old charfate. each and everyone of us should come up at least with one good idea and it's has to be logical and doable and we should make our goverment listen to us eventhough we currently don't live in Morocco but we are who we are no matter what we've become. This is just my opion and if you see it otherwise please feel free to let me know i could be wrong.

4:21 pm    May 19, 2003
how could you paste a map of morocco where sahara hasn't been drawn as a part of our country !!! western sahara ??? did we loose it ? if not yet please redraw it, sahara has always been moroccan and it will stay moroccan.

4:15 pm    May 19, 2003
Arabi hatta tmout, Are you kidding or what??? you said :) rest assured that justice will take place either here on earth or in judgement day)

are you serious. That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard in years. I mean come on, you could not find anything better. What kind of message does this statement deliver. I am speecheless.
You should send this to moroccan judges for crying out loud

lahawla wala kawwata.....


4:06 pm    May 19, 2003
We should thank americans an french for sending their experts.
Instead of investing in technology and knowledge, our government is buying fancy cars and stuff .......

Au moins: nos ministres ne se sentiront pas l?s?s.


We are a Joke


3:25 pm    May 19, 2003
Dear San,
I don't think that I said anything provocative to Adnane or any other. As a Moroccan jalous about his country; I have the right to shed the light on something that might look or sound minor to you, but it is VERY offensive to others.

This is exactly what I am trying to clearify; please show minimum respect for the people that gave their lives for a unified Morocco.
Do you not think that this is worth mentioning?

Again I am not "attacking" Adnane instead I am being very honest and respectful about expressing my thoughts.
Peace N Love


3:20 pm    May 19, 2003
In the US, they have lot of christian TV chanels who keep talking all day about jesus, and no body believe in what they, muslims have few radio channels and they're doing real good alhamdoulilah in north america.
I talked to many of these converted muslims, most of'em use to think that Islam is a religion of teror even before the 9/11, but once they learn Islam, they know that it is the truth there is no doubt about it.

Lovecasa, if u think that Islam will bring back to caves periods, u need to learn a lot about this religion.
For the sake of god and the brotherhood, I invite all of us including me to learn about Islam, it is a shame that non-born muslims knows much more than we do, Lot of american muslims became big da3ia and big imam in a very short period. We need to think seriously about the conception of our religion in our minds.


3:19 pm    May 19, 2003
A reply to LoveCasa,
first of all, we all love our hometown, we all condamne those attacs, but as Arabi^7ta^Nmout said these are all fitans and may god is testing us don't let unger drive u to a such point that u make negative comments about ur religion.
Islam will not gring u to the caves period. U can have an Islamic state and drive the best car in the world, have fully equiped intellegent house, have the best universities in the world, etc..
Islam is not about where to live, dresses, etc.
Islam is far beyond that, it is about justice, humain rights, freedom of speach, etc..
What I noticed in this forum, love of people need to do some research and know about groups who support the idea of killing to realise the dream of an Islamic state.
Those are the groups that our profit talked about 1400 years ago and said they'll go hell. I already know that some of the groups of the salafi movment have dangerous interpretation of jihad.
We need to read about the Islamic history then u'll learn about other groups who came right after the death of our profit (pbuh), called khawarij and mu3tazila.
The companions of the profet (pbuh) fighted against this groups.
There a lot of things we need to learn about our religion before making jugement on it.
One more thing how do u explain that the islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, I use to live in a medium size city in the US, and every friday u sue to assist to at one american converting to Islam.

3:07 pm    May 19, 2003
Arabi & Watan I think u guys went a bit too far in ur accusations ...I think you should avoid this kind of postings 'cause they're very provocative and way over the board...we're here to discuss what hapenned in casa and share how we feel about it and recomfort each other not start a fight ...u know what I mean! So plz guys tabtou ou na3lou chitan ra7na machi 3adyan

2:30 pm    May 19, 2003
1st, I tell all moroccans, who suffered directly and/or indirectly, to rest assured that justice will take place either here on earth or in judgement day. Those weak-souled criminals, who carried out these attacks, are simply a bunch of brain-washed ignorants succuming to evil influences...Hum!?! I wonder who is sponsoring these criminals and benefiting from this,i.e., Muslims turning against each other.

Look at us now, some are trashing our heritage and religion, and others have no respect for poeples' believes and cultures. "Inna lfitnata achddou mina lmawet".

I don't feel like elaborating any further...It's messed up and we'll fix it INCHAA LLAH.

2nd, Adnane I think you should respect our point of view about the moroccan desert as well. A lot of people died in the sake of moroccan sovereignty, so posting that map on your website is a clear disregard to our brave soldiers lives and their families feelings. It is obvious that there is no comparison with the palestinian delima, but according to you we should buy maps with Isreal instead of Palestine state on it. After all Isreal is acknowledged worldwide!!!

If Watan said what he said is only because of the love of Morocco and especially because of his awareness of the sacrifices made to keep Morocco a unified country. Adnane, I hope you realize the seriouseness of such an act. It is mind baffling for me to see any Moroccan disregarding all lost lives in the sake of Moroccan sahara.

Lastly I apologize for deviating from today's subject and real issue, but I had to make things clear at least the way I see it.

Peace N Love


2:24 pm    May 19, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message

It is Really sad to see some people like (lovecasa) and Others saying that they should suspend PJD...., because i`m sure after September 11 , you were not saying the same thing when some americans were saying that they should kick out all the muslims and arabs ...., some Americans stereotyped and called all the arabs and muslims Terrorists, and now we Moroccans are calling our Brothers and Sisters Terrorists..., not every body who has a beard and wears white is a terrorist, and not all the Islamist Groups are like (attakfir walhijra or assira6 almusta9im) i know about assira6 almusta9im, and attakfir walhijra from a while ago and i know how they think, they think that every body who doesn`t follow them is kafir, and that almujtama3 almaghribi is mujtama3 alkoufr, they say that PJD is kouffar, because they are in the parliamant, because they don`t believe in the parliamant,
Stop accusing people without Proofs,
to those who don`t wanna relate Religion to this, wach katkedbou 3la rasskoum??? it is related nomatter what, because the attackers motive was religion,
Regarding the MAP, it is the map we see every where but in Morocco, can you guys find a map without western sahara on it ?? not in the moroccan websites though...

1:52 pm    May 19, 2003

Zainab SR message
Adnane, l baraka f rassek, wel baraka f rass ljamee3...
It's soo sad that our country got to this point, allah yehdi ljamee3

1:17 pm    May 19, 2003

1:17 pm    May 19, 2003
After these acts, i think the first think ti be done is disallow parties such as PJD. Because even if PJD calls themselfs moderates they support and inspire those radicale groups that hide behind them!

1:08 pm    May 19, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
Watan, like message 161 conveyed, that's how the legal world sees things.

If you are going to accuse me, how about you take it to the next level and sue me anywhere you want. Or maybe wrap a bomb around a teenager, convince him that I am all what you said I am, plus call me ASSI, and let him explode in front of my house.

Be careful Watani, anger, accusations, and violent thoughts breed violent acts like Casablanca bombs.

Take it easy.


12:42 pm    May 19, 2003

Again; this forum is NOT about Islam or Any Religion...I do not offend ANYONE when I say that I simply do not care about any Religion (including Islam)...I, however find it extremely offensive when people try to convince me despite all the evidence "WORLWIDE" that Islamists justify MURDER to try to achieve their "goals"....and we are still saying that Islam is this / Muslims are that...This is part of the problem because we REFUSE to face reality; even when our people are being KILLED by the dozens!!!
I find this Frustrating because the more we talk about something else, other than MURDER; the more we bury our heads in the sand !!! The MURDER of innocent bystanders in our homeland should make all of us stand as one person...and denounce the Fanaticism of Islamist Terrorists who justify MURDER..they are the same in Chechnia, Algeria, Israel, Saoudi Arabia, Philippines, Indonesia...they are the SAME!!!We have to have the courage to denounce these people / call them exactly what they are / define what they do as simply MURDER...and I have yet to see more of voices doing so in this forum..and that's why it is so Frustrating....


12:32 pm    May 19, 2003
Salam to all
(me) and AL,i completly agree with you, that we should keep islam out of this. islam is a religions of peace, not killing the innocent people. the problem, has occured because most of the moroccan population is jahleene. the big problem is that most of this next generation are influenced by this new islamic jihad, which could cause more problems in the future.

allah eyhfed al-maghrib


12:29 pm    May 19, 2003
Watin those are some strong words u used...The map is not the issue right just illustrates where Morocco is located (for whose who don't know)....So don't go accusing him as if he comitted a crime! plus As far as I know that map is LEGALLY correct

12:10 pm    May 19, 2003
You're displaying a map of Morocco with WESTERN SAHARA on it.

I accuse you of separatism and traison to the national unity of Morocco.



12:06 pm    May 19, 2003
Mes chers concitoyens

Ce qui est arriv? fait pleurer. Des malades mentaux ont exploit? la mis?re de jeunes gens et lui ont vendu quelque chose qu'ils n'ont pas : le paradis. quel paradoxe de vendre un produit que nous n'avons pas ! que chacun de nous le sache : il n'y a que le possesseur du paradis qui peut le vendre, c'est ? dire Dieu, personne d'autre ? ma connaissance n'a un titre de propri?t? sur le paradis sign? et cachet? par Dieu. alors arr?tons nos b?tises et surtout arr?tons de dire que l'Islam c'est ceci ou cela, que tel ira au paradis et tel autre n'ira pas. Personne n'en sait rien du tout. l'?tre humain est minable ? l'?chelle cosmique et le restera. On a encore beaucoup d'humilit? ? acqu?rir. Beaucoup.


12:03 pm    May 19, 2003
Al, I somewhat agree with you that we should keep Islam out of this 7rira but I am those these kamikaze thought that their actions were justified...but Again this is the result of al jahl ou la misere! Allah y r7am hadouk alli matou da7iya ou ysabar 3ayilathoum.

11:59 am    May 19, 2003
The real problem is how these individuals interpret Islam...They were weak and brainwashed ...The only solution would be to correct people's interpretation of Islam so they wouldn't be influenced by some manupulators....

11:52 am    May 19, 2003
What happned in my hometown is ahorrible thing! I think it is about time for action to stop those crazy islamists who want to destroy the country. Can anyone give me an example of a country applying chariaa and doing as well as other countries. those islamites (including those who call themselves moderates) want to take us back to cave ages!
I would rather die than wear afghan clothes or live a life like them)

11:46 am    May 19, 2003
Salam alykum

Let's take a few moments to understand what we're talking about here ... why is it that Islam is to blame for the terrorist attack on Casablanca? and why is it that we're fighting instead of comforting one another? Mr. Al, I think you should rethink what you said ... I do understand your frustration, but it is no excuse for you to use offensive language against Islam and muslims, if you don't care about religion, well may be you should at least consider other people's feelings ...
I refuse to let this terrorist act split us as Moroccans, we all care about our motherland, and we all love Morocco, and whomever carried the suicide attacks IS OUR MUTUAL ENEMY, so what's the point of us fighting each other? what evidence do we have to link the attack to Islam, this pure peaceful religion that wants nothing but for everybody to live in PEACE!!


11:15 am    May 19, 2003
No one can tolerate what our city have been through last friday.
No one can justify this acts.
I personnaly don't agree with suicide bomber even in the midleEast.
And no one in this site is manipulating, when are duscussing a dangerous issue because it is life of innocents. I suppose u believe in debate and if u don't agree with any point that has been posted, u can express it and believe me u learn a lot from debates.

11:04 am    May 19, 2003
I have noticed something... why do we always talk about the past and history? when the islamic civilization once was great and strong... that's normal... nothing extraordinary about it ... because each civilization has a cycle of life, just like human being... all the civilization went through a birth...growth & success ... and then death ... and the u.s.a can be considered one the latest civilization ... and one day it will die too ...

10:55 am    May 19, 2003
This site like so many others where Moroccans "talk" is being manipulated by the same Islamist trend....I personally do not give a rat's ass about ANY religion including Islam (I am a simple Moroccans w/no titles)....
What I see in Casablanca is MURDER !!! Nothing to do with any of the Hundreds of arguements about Reigion....This is MURDER in our Homeland...I also do not give a rat's ass about the Middle East conflict...Morocco has no Territorial issue with Israel...why should we "accept" that our Homeland become a part of that conflict?!!!!
My fellow Moroccans, the question is whether we (as a people) will accept MURDER in our Homeland as "means" to achieve anything!!!if we start saying that "yes" / "Maybe", then we are all DOOMED !!
MURDER is just that..MURDER, and we should call it exactly what it is, and ANYONE who tries to Manipulate this / somehow justify MURDER is simply a part of the problem !!!
I do not believe that this can be hard to understand; especially when our people are being slaughtered !!!!

10:33 am    May 19, 2003
I wanna add one more thing to Negotiator's message. Islam in many period in the history was a strong civilization not only in the priods of kalifs, we have also the period of salah dine alayoubi, the period of othmanit and the Andalous. At these periods, when kings ruled by way of god, Islam was strong but as soon as they start getting away from the book of god, u'll start seeing masacres, weaknesses, no justice, etc. and then the Islamic states get invaded by an other civilization.

In some period Islam the example in the world and in Europe as a civilisation. In Andalous, Rich families from europe use to send their kids to study in andalous schools, because at that time they can't find a better education for their kids somewhere esle.


10:19 am    May 19, 2003
Adnane, u're right we can talk about a clash of ideologies. But this is if we consider Islam an Ideology. Islam is a religion and also a civilization, the West is also a civilization. there an Ideology that is supported by the West and and also a set of ruling that Islam brought to us. When Samuel Huntington published his book about the clash of civilization he refered to the religion as a civilisation which will be confronted to the western Laic civilization.
If u forget about what's hapenning, u study the Western Ideology and the Islam, u will see a logical conflict that will happen one day.
This is why I, personnally, see what the curan talked about 1400 years ago and what Samuel Huntington talked about 5 or 6 years ago already happening.

10:09 am    May 19, 2003
I think almost everyone needs to be blamed for the tragedy and killing happening in the world, from NYC to Casablanca. None is excluded. I do not think that the extrimist islamist will step down as long as they see the west killing muslims around the world. It is gonna be a cyclic phenomena unless someone step down. The extermist are mainly illeterate, poor and thus easy manipulated, which make them an easy weapon of people who have money and polical agenda and evil willing. This will only stop if the Usa does not give the opportunity to such people to misinterpret the islam teaching or the Koran verses ( which I call manipulation). So for a better world, USA needs to improve their ways of dealing with the Arab or Muslim world in general and the Isrealo-palestinia conflicts in particular. If USA improves its way of behaving with the Muslim world, then no one will have the opportunity to misinterpret the Koran. But the american system consists of a president every 4 years, so the goverment is looking for short term solution that will give results during that short period of time. so they chose to fight back and kill the enemies (Taliban, Irak, Philiipes,...) but these things only creates more terrorsims in the long term, as there will be readily manipulated muslims again that feel humilated and wants to do something. Then you have casablanca bombing, Bali, NYC all the tragedies. La 7awla wa la kowwata illa bilah.

10:04 am    May 19, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
Suite :
BUT knowing that Islam is the right way of life DOES NOT give us the right to go and force people to convert, we should remember what the prophet(PBUH) said to his companions before he died, he told them that you will go to a6raf al2ard...., and you will find people with other religions do not kill them if they don`t fight you, do not kick jews from their synagoges , do not kill priests and leave every body as he pleases, don`t force any body to convert.....,
For those who Doubted that Islam is a Political system, please know that Mohammed was, a Prophet, politician, warrior, ...., when you say that ISLAM never showed it`s perfectness , even in the caliphs era, on what did you base you infos??? did you know that for 400 years of al2imarah alislamia ONLY 2 CASES of two robberies, just two times that some body stole something IN 400 YEARS....., when OMAR IBN ABDELAZIZ was the caliph, YOU COULDN`T FIND ANY MENDIANTS , alkhazinah dial dawla was full, that people couldn`t find poor people to give zakat to..., isn`t this Perfect for you?
GOD said that he will send a da3iah, in every century to renew their Faith, because without men or women to show us the right path we will be lost in this life, IT is very easy to say hey i don`t like hassan albanna, or sayyed 9utb, or abdelhamid kechk...., but do you really know how these men were??? if you know how they were and what they were preaching for, i`m sure you would want to be one of their students now...,
I`m sorry mourad but you need to read a lot about sayyed 9utb and hassan albannah before you judge them.

10:03 am    May 19, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
Sorry Adnane if we started talking about religion and Especialy Islam, but i think it is somehow part of the subject since Radical Islamists are the main suspects here.
I supporte what casaoui and ayur said, ISLAM indeed is the only thing that will bring happiness to one`s life, for those who contradicted him, do you think that the catholic or the orthodox or the pagan, who is living a wondeful life ,is really living a wonderful life? you might see that but you don`t see how he is inside, you don`t see how many of them commits suicide , this just here in this life, but the happiness we are talking aboiut is the everlasting happiness, the happiness that Islam (Lailaha illa allah mohhammad rassoul allah) will bring to us in the here after, (inna ddina 3inda allahi alislam) and who ever brings any thing but islam to allah will not be accepted from him, you might ask , so hwo about those people that were good, and never harmed any body and did good deeds in this life but they were pagans or christians..., i tell you just whay our beloved Prophet said about them( innama al2a3malou binniyates , walikoulli imri2in ma nawa) meaning that these people were not doing these good deeds to please allah, no they were doing it for their own sake, to show off probably, to look good..., and god will reward them for that in this life and that`s it,(allahou la youdi3ou ajra almu7sinin) but in the here after they won`t have any thing to meet god with...,

9:58 am    May 19, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
Regarding message 143: I think calling what is happening a clash if civilizations is pure exagerration. A clash is an encounter between hostile forces, a battle, or a skirmish. Each part come together to fight the other part. What we see here is two parties and one of them obviousely doesn't qualify as a civilization:

1. The groups that got frustrated with situation in middle east and use the power of religion to fight everyone who doesn't support them.

2. The other part we see actual civiliazation: USA, and everyone who doesn't support these warlords.

Since one of these groups is not a civilization, but a bunch of warlords, I don't believe that what we see here is a clash of civilization. But rathe as I said in one of my earier posts, a clash of political ideologies.


9:48 am    May 19, 2003
In ur previous message, u said : "this bullshit of religion is the source of all this sh*t ",
So u blame the religion.
Religion is not responsible for what happen, it is the people claiming that they're killing in the name of the religion.

9:39 am    May 19, 2003
casaoui... that's why I said, the believes are a personnal matter ... for instance ... it's me who is going to hell or heaven (if that's even exist) so why ossama and his followers have to force me believe in what they believe in????!!!! I am smart enough to find my path ... I know there is a coran ... I know there is a bible ... I know there is a torat ... and I know how to read ... and I know that these books are the only reference for the religion ... one more thing ... if these people don't like the regime in morocco ... so why they don't go after the reponsibles ... the government officials ... the king itself ??? instead ... they kill innocent people ... it can be my mother .. your mother .. my sister or yours ... my friend or yours .... this is just ridiculous ... also .. I liked what the guy MOMO from CASa said ... and I am supporting his opinion ...

9:06 am    May 19, 2003
One more thing, Adnane, I believe in the clash of civilisation, which raised because Islam converge with the political and econimic model by which the world is ruled today. Laic liberals, marxists, etc... have there radicals also and they see Islam as an enmy. these people can also be in arab countries and the conflict between Islam and this ideologies sooner or later will have a large impact on our lifes.
I believe also that these people are fighting against the spread of Islam which is the fastest growing religion in the world.

Some people may get me wrong, i'm describing what happening in the world as I see it personnally, I may be wrong, I m giving excuses for war between islam and the west.
Our profet dealed with jews and christians gave lot of respect to these people and I believe we need to do so.

One more thing, u may think I argue to much about some issue, I'm not a hard headed or right fighter, I just like debates about complexe Issue.

Amicalement :)


9:06 am    May 19, 2003
I did not say that the west as whole is targetting Islam.
What is that media make a link between Islam and Terrorist attack.
Because when the media can annouce something and send a different message to peoples mind (These are thing we studied in communication ).
In the us as well as in Canada, lot of tv channels made a positif documentary films about Islam, bush governement have been trying to explain to people that we don't target muslims, made lot of positive comment on muslim americans and even warned about any racist attack against muslims. But also the media and the american governent send out indirectally negative message about Islam. How ?
As an example, during the Haj period the alert about a terrorist attack in the us was at it highest level, and right after the haj period the alert level was reduced and it was announced in the media that it is because of the haj period.
So most of americans will start matching Islam practices with terrorsit attack.

8:27 am    May 19, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
Mes condoleances Kamal et aux proches des familles Benaddi et Mhemdi, et tous les autres familles qui etait touches par les attentats.

Casaoui, I don't honestly share your view, that the west is targetting Islam as a religion. I don't believe in this stereotypical conspiracy a bit.

Islam is a good and peaceful religion, and you can't disagree that the US has done its best to distinguish this to its citizens. US, like you, like many Moroccans, like many sobre Muslims around the world, have a problem with those who are misinterpreting this great religion, unintentionaly or intentionally, to make a change.

The groups who have political ideologies opposite to the current political state of affairs in the Middle East, are using the spiritual power of religion as a weapon to attempt to change the situation.

Unfortunately, in my opinion, they are using it the wrong way.

The victims are the teengers recruited from around the Arab world to carry on the political anti-dote agenda, and the innocent people that die.

There is no problem with change, if these people were to offer solutions, alternatives, ways to change for better, people might embrace them. But instead they use bombs and planes, and commit suicide. It is really becoming vague who to blame, these kids who directly carried the bombing in Casa, or the big heads who convinced them to do so...



8:20 am    May 19, 2003

Rasta Gnawi message
Sorry about what happened cousin. I hope everyone is dealing as well as can be expected with this tragedy.
L baraka fras ljami3.

7:52 am    May 19, 2003
Salam alykum

With all the due respect, don't think it is wise of us at this point to start jumping to conclusions or tie those bloody events to Islam in any way, we shouldn't fall into the international plan to lin every terrorism act to Islam, islam is not a violent religion, and now more than ever is the time to stick by our religion rather than falsly and wrongfully accuse it for thisterrorist act!
And just to clear a couple of points, it is the dutie of every muslim to advise his friends and neighbors if he thinks they're doing something wrong (Al amru bil maaruf wal nahyu aan el munkar) and those friends have the right to discart this advise, if they please, or take it in consideration, we can't blame people for trying to make our muslim society a better one, and in noway we should use their good faith against them at this point of time ... Let's hold hands and grief together in peace and pray for our innocent victims, TOGETHER rather than looking for someone to blame amongst us.



7:49 am    May 19, 2003
j??tais t?moin des explosions ? casa, j?allais d?ner au positano, on ?tait au feu rouge du boulevard perpendiculaire de la sc?ne du crime qu'on a entendu le grognement des explosion, au d?but on croyait que c??tait des feux d?artifice car le Maroc f?tait depuis quelques jours la naissance du prince h?ritier,puis on a vu les gens prendre la fuite on s?est dit que c?est une explosion de bouteille ? gaz, lorsqu?on est descendu de la voiture, on a vu le corps du kamikaze d?chiquet? par terre, je n?arrive pas ? oublier l?image de sa t?te .les gens sortaient du restaurant en courant , c?est ? ce moment qu?on a entendu la 3eme explosion quelques rues plus loin ? casa de espana et l? on n?a r?alis? l?ampleur de la situation, c??tait comme dans un film d?horreur.
je 'narrive tjs pas ? croire que je l'ai ?chapp? belle de quelques minutes, je remercie dieu de m'avoir ?pargner ce soir l?.
toutes mes condol?ances aux familles des victimes,

7:42 am    May 19, 2003
What happened in our beloved city is not due to the religion, it is due to those who claim they muslims and kill innocent in name of the religion.
We need to make this difference Islam is one thing and islamic groups are another thing.
As I told nairouz the clear message of north american media is that any terrorist attack is linked to Islam without any evidence.

7:15 am    May 19, 2003



6:59 am    May 19, 2003
Shiiit... what happened...???I was camping all weekend long ... and I just heard about casablanca and the bombings this morning...that's unbelievable ... .m@#!er F@#$*rs ... F@#k ossama ... and F#$*k all the bearded M#*&#er F*&^%*ers wherever they are ... killing innocent people ... see ... I told you long time ago .. this bullshit of religion is the source of all this sh*t ... who cares about what X or Y believes in ... who cares if the guy next door is going to hell because of his believes ... good for you a ssi ossama if you are going to heaven ... just leave me alone ... and let me deal and live my life the way I want .. believe in what i want ...

6:24 am    May 19, 2003
Salam alykum

I don't even know how to express my feelings into words .... hasbuna ALLAH wa ni3ma l wakeel.

It's about time we stopped pointing fingers and attacking one another, rather we should be looking for ways to help, as no matter how good we try to hide it, we're all shaken and deeply saddened by those gruesome acts and we have come to this website at least to seek comfort and express our sadness and frustration, and I hope we'd have more room for patience and compassion while dealing with each other. It's not the right time to point fingers and exchange accusation, and mostly, we shouldn't let this shake our faith in ALLAH and in our pure, peaceful religion as some westerners try to link the terrorist act to Islam, 7asha liLLAH, to those people I only have one thing to say ... Fa Sabrun JAmeel wa ALLAHu el musta3anu 3amma tasifun ...

My sincere condolences go to the victims families, rahima ALLAHu mawtana wa mawta el muslimines, may he be with our dearest motherland going through this rough time, and may he hold the terrorists who carried out these attacks responsible for their acts ...



6:24 am    May 19, 2003
Suite ...
L'islam est une religion compl?te, en domaine politique bien qu'en autres, et les anciens Califs pratiquait l'islam dans leurs provinces et leurs ?tats sans aucun probl?me, c pour cela k'ils ont atteint un haut niveau sur tt les domaines

5:50 am    May 19, 2003
dans ta premi?re intervention t'as bien parl?, mais la 2?me m'a bcp chock?, tu parlais comme si tu n'as aucun respect aussa7aba " ridwanou llahi 3alayhim" surtout dans ta phrase ( ...What right do I have to go the Siberian taiga to disturb a happy Orthodox man and try to convince him that Islam is his only way to be happy in his life? Or even closer, trying to convince a French Catholic that his religion is a wrong one? )
?coute mon fr?re, les sa7abas ont exploit? les pays lointains, et ils n'avaient aucun moyen de communication pour transmettre le message du Dieu et notre religion, ils ont laiss? leurs enfants, leurs famillesn, rien que pour avoir ce grand honneur! alors de quel droit tu parles de cette mani?re, en plus, l'islam a adopt? le principe de la discussion et la tol?rance avec les autres religions, il n'a jamais eu recours ? la violence, ? part dans des cas qui sont justifi?s ( le cas de la tribu de mousaylima lkaddab qui a tu? les messagers du Omar bnou lkhattab je crois )
une autre chose, quand tu as parl? du budhaisme ...etc ce sont des religions qui croit pas au Dieu, ils croient seulement aux status, au feu ...etc, ceci est d?ja jug? dans notre Coran et Sounna charifa, alors ne te fatigue pas ? chercher ( What right do I have to judge others' religions and others' perception of life? )
Derniere chose, l'islam est unique, c'est celui du Coran, de sounna, il n'y a pas plusieurs m?thodes pour pratiquer l'islam, il n'ya k'une, et si tu crois toujours que non, alors tu n'as k'a revoir tes croyances et tes principes, car je ne crois pas que t'as raison.

5:00 am    May 19, 2003
My answer to u mourad is that Every time a mojadid like hassan al banna come, the follower of this chouyoukh get to fanatik and they create differences among the muslim wourld. A simple example: a Cheikh alabani and hassan albasri had some differences, ans still they were like brothers, but there student were enemies because every side think that the other is wrong.
Mourad Islam is one, and we to think god about this, because difference between the scholars of Islam (Malik, Ahmed, Abou Hanifa, Shafi3i, idn Taimia, etc.) were not on the basics of our religion, the difference were one some issues that either take or leave, we're not going to be punished for.

I agree with u Mourad on one point, we should not tel non-muslims that their religion is wrong and ours is right, our profit teaches us not to do so. But a discussion about Islam and other religions has been always welcomed here in north america if it is with full respect. I personally never had any problem discussing Islam with a non-muslim. And specially in this period of time we have to do so because people are having wrong conceptions about Islam in their minds and if we don't clear their confusions
we'll be judged as terrorist.
One main difference between Islam and other religion is that the other religions and specially christianity are all about spirituality ; and when I talk to christians they usuallty get surpised that Islam is about spirituality and also common sens, everything seem to them logical in Islam. Because, chritians, when they go to churchs, they learn that when it come to the religion, u have to keep ur brain away, there don't have to use their commom sens.


4:59 am    May 19, 2003
Islam is the religion of God.
In the day of jugement God will not accept any religion but Islam.
The difference between Islam and other religions is that it was sent to every humain kind. The previous religions were sent to specified tribes or nations (banou Islail, namroud, etc.. )
There is no doubt that the universe and everything were created by God. We've also been created by god as social animals, we live in societies. And to complete his creations, God gave us the rules so that we can function in the most perfect way, God gave us the ingredients if we want to be happy, to live in peace, to give justice, to be helthy, to be welthy, to be educated, etc....... the list is endless.
The completness and perfection of God wanted to preserve this religion, and god promissed to protect the real sources of Islam (Quran and sunah). We, as humain being, tend to be misguided. that's why people like Mohamed ibn 3abd alwahab and hassan albanna came, those are called moujadiding. These people, Mourad, did not create a new Islam these people were trying to get people back to Islam, because without like thoses people Islam will be completly something different. Those are not Islamic movement or ideologies. The Question is why do we get confused ?

3:50 am    May 19, 2003
Les Familles BENADDI & MHEMDI ont l'Immense douleur de vous faire part du d?c? de deux de nos freres (azze el arab BENADDI & jamal MHEMDI ) more ds les attentats de casablanca( casa de espagna).et remercient tous ceux qui se sont associ?s a leur deuil par leur pr?sence, leur message ou leur appels.
puisse Dieu avoir les defunts en sa seinte Mis?ricorde.
inna lillah oua inna ilayhi raji3oun

3:28 am    May 19, 2003
D?sol? de monopoliser la page, but I just wanted to add few words to react to brother Casaoui when he says "nothing will bring hapiness to any human being but Islam."

I only have one question: What Islam are you talking about: is it Sunnism or Shiism? following the Mal?ki school or the Hanafi one? Living like the Taliban or like the Egyptian mulism brotehrhood? Islam as it is perceived in Azerbaidjan, or as it is practiced in Nigeria, mixed with pagan ancestral culture?

Pushing the questions a bit far: did anyone of us ever studied Taoism or Shintoism? Do we know much about Brahmanism?

My point is that Islam is too broad a notion. Islam is one and many. And Islam is most importantly one of many religions that make up this happy world.
What right do I have to go the Siberian taiga to disturb a happy Orthodox man and try to convince him that Islam is his only way to be happy in his life? Or even closer, trying to convince a French Catholic that his religion is a wrong one? What right do I have to judge others' religions and others' perception of life?
As far as I know (and correct me if I am wrong, Islam is not a political system and it has never showed its perfectness, even in the early days of the rightly guided Califs.)

As long as we don't understand and respect people who are different, and as long as we don't stick out this idea of being right and others wrong, we will still be "out of topic" (hors sujet).

Respect brothers, Respect is the only way to share this planet peacfully.


3:11 am    May 19, 2003
mourad barak allahou fik, tu m'as ot? les mots de la bouche!
Allh y 3azz amtalek!

2:57 am    May 19, 2003
Hello all,
It is great to have a chance to exchange ideas in this site. Thanks again Raioo team.

No need to go over my feelings about this outrageously infame event. My anger is beyond any wordly description.

But I just want to react to comments made by some fine people in this list.

I am a Muslim and I believe in God. But I am sorry no to believe in Sayyid Kutb and Hassan Al Banna, neither in any bearded towelhead who claims to explain to us what is the real Islam. There is no REAL Islam. Islam is a real patchwork of religions (common points and background with Judaism and Christianity), and influenced by many cultures (persian, European, Indian...). If Islam wants to grow, it can only draw strenght from its diversity and openness to other cultures and other religions. It has already shown this capacity throughout history.

The Islam that many claim to be pure and simple is mainly a modernised version of the Wahhabism (created by Mohammed ibn abdul Wahhab (1703-1792), and deeply influenced from the ideas of Ibn Taymiyah (13th cent.) I personnaly have some difficulty accepting some ideas of this movement like for one simple reason: I don't see how my life can be run by 2 centuries old decrees, while the world has been witnessing incredible fundamental changes in the past 2 centuries.

A person who preaches that poverty and economic failures are the consequences of women showing their hair and mixing with men in the workplace, can indeed compete with the Inquisition thinkers of medieval Europe and Bush's crusade against evil in the contest of the BEST IRRELEVANT AND SIMPLISTIC BUT DANGEROUS ideologies of the history of humankind.



1:39 am    May 19, 2003
moul javil
no words no comment, allah bless morocco

1:19 am    May 19, 2003
allah y khzihoum, allh y n3alhoum.Friends of my dad and froiends of my uncle died there, simple citizens walking in the street.So NOTHINg can you here me NOTHING can justify this crime.What a shame, blad siba woullina!
I am so disgusted i can not speaaaaak!

11:06 pm    May 18, 2003

10:07 pm    May 18, 2003
momo, tu parle de ljihad comme ?tant un inconvenient dans tes interventions, par exemple: "...donc ,je crois que la notion de aljihad ?tait introduite dans l'universit? mais personne ne s'en apercevait"
Et j'ai not? qq remarques:
1- On a d?ja dis, que l'islam ce n'est pas la cause de ce qui est arriv? ? Casa, d'ou le fait d'inculper aljihad ( la base de l'islam ) dans notre discussion; c'est comme accuser l'islam wale3yadou billah.
2- Le vrai jihad se fait en cas de guerre, contre les ennemies, par contre nous, on des conventions de paix avec presque tous les pays du monde.
3- et c'est l'important pour moi, s'il y avait pas de ljihad, tu verrais jamais le jour dans un pays libre, car les pauvres gens dans les villes/villages se battaient contre la france et l'espagne non pour avoir de l'argent, ou pour impressionner qq1, c'?tait juste pour aljihad fi sabili llah! ( en meme temps; les communistes s'en profitaient pour avoir les bons bureaux!!! )
d'ou je vois pas l'utilit? d'inclure aljihade dans un fait qui n'a aucun rapport avec l'islam de tout!!!

9:18 pm    May 18, 2003
salam laykoum :
Ma reponse a mon frere Adnan concernant l islamisation de notre etat,je suis d accord avec toi cette notion fait peur a nous ennemis qui savent que notre force et notre bonheur et developpement c est dans le Qouran ,le retour a l islam pure et simple ,le Qouran et souna charifa.l idee n est pas effrayante ,elle peut s appeliquer etape par etape et d une manniere simple et souple mais il faut juste garantir l environement et l entourage favorable,education,developpement economique et sociale et surtout effacer l ignorance de notre pays(l ignorance religieuse aussi)la solution est entre nos mains alors que nous cherchons le remede ailleur ,toutes les theorie et les idees que l etre humain a invente ont prouver leur incapacite (socialisme,marxisme,liberalisme,democratie....)alors que notre religion est parfaite et pratique n importe ou et n importe quand .que allah nous guide tous au chemein droit inchaalah.
une autre chose les gens qui disent que ses attentats (que je condamne )sont un desastre au secteur de tourisme je leur dit wallahi au maroc meme s il y a une pluie d or et de diamont tant que ce regime et sa mal gestion du pays existe ca va changer rien dans la vie des citoyens .
hassbiya lahou wa ni3ma lwakil.
salam alaykoum.

8:25 pm    May 18, 2003
chanceux ou malheureux je ne sait pas,mais casaoui quand tu est immigrant dans un pays il faut que tu te replies aux lois et mani?res de vie des gens de ce pays pour une meilleure int?gration,c'est vrai il y a beaucoup de libert? mais il ne faut pas en abuser,comme ce qui est arriv? le 11 sep. c'est que l;es gens ont profit? de cette libert?,mais maintenant qui va payer c'est vous immigrants arabes:pas acces aux ?tudes de haute technologie,pas de jobs, pas de facilit? dans la vie courante, vous allez vous sentir humili?s,peut-?tre un jour ils vont vous le dire en pleine fece :rentrez chez vous vous n'?tes que des terroristes,on n'a rien ? foutre avec vous explication:islam religion de paix......

8:08 pm    May 18, 2003
mon felling pr?sageait que les kamikases sont issus des quartiers populaires d?favoris?s de casablanca ? titre d'exemple:sidi moumen,hay mouhammedi.sidi elbernoussi, hay moulay rachid,madina kadima,sidi othman,dreb sultan.....etc
parceque toutes les conditions sont r?unies pour donner de tels personnellement ,je suis n? dans les bidonvilles et je sais ce que cela veut dire mieux que quelqu'un qui a lu un article vous raconte l'histoire d'un leader criminel de mon quartier que tout le monde craint m?me lmekhazenia,un jour ce criminel s'est converti en islam par le biais d'un groupe de marocains et de pakistanais,puis il est disparus pour une p?riode assez longue,il revenait avec un changement total:longue barbe,pas de jeans juste les habits islamiques ,il ne regardait plus la t?l?vision en disant que c'est un "shaitan",mais surtout beaucup d'argent,ses parents ont r?nov? la maison,puis il a commencait un business pr??tabli.tout le monde se demandait c'est quoi le secret: la r?ponse vient de la bouche de l'ex-criminel:tariq allah c?d; il faut suivre le chemin de dieu.ainsi s'entame le processus de recrutements des jeunes.

mais c'est quoi la contrepartie:c'est aljihad fi sabili allah.don il faut payer le prix de l'engagement.
mais ce qui est stup?fiant c'est qu'il y a une sorte de hi?rarchisation,je m'explique d'abord une fois engag? c?d apr?s son conversion en islam ,le novice suit d'entrainement comment pr?cher l'islam dans son quartier premi?rement,ensuite dans les autres quartiers en sachant ma?triser sa col?re devant les moqueries des jeunes,la seconde ?tape le voyage ? l'ext?rieur pour approffondir la notion de aljihad et en m?me temps ?tre en contact avec le vrai islam celui de taliban....


7:55 pm    May 18, 2003
After the 9/11, lot of muslims match every terrorist attack to Islam, and this is the main goal of our enemies. Every one of us will think the same way, if we watch cnn without any critical view and believe everything they say.
Nairouz, we need to think about authenticty of the media and use our common sens when we watch the news.


7:41 pm    May 18, 2003
Arabs in general, when they come to the western world they find out about the real face of Islam.
In muslim countries, practicing islam became a habit and this is due too many historical reasons.
But subhana lah, in america or in europe, if women keep her scarf, it is not because her father force her to do so, when a teenager go more frequently to the mosque, it is not to get noticed, they are doing it to please allah. This way we closer to god, we get to know more about islam, and we get a different taste of Islam. And believe me Momo islam is the secret of hapiness, and nothing will bring hapiness to any human being but Islam.

7:31 pm    May 18, 2003
est-ce que les marocains sont stupides?

les explosions de casablanca ne sont ? mon avis que le fruit d'un travail de longue haleine des groupes islamistes s'identifiant ? alqaeda.ces gens l? ont profit? de la pauvret? et la d?bouche de la soci?t? marocaine en engageant les jeunes de toutes cat?gories, je veux dire: le criminel,l'universitaire,l'ouvrier...etc en leur vendant des r?ves et en donnant quelques sommes d'argent ? leurs familles et en leur promettant qu'ils vont mourir martyr (chahid).
quqnd on ?tait jeunes adolescants, qui n'a pas lu les livres de SYAD QOTOB et de HASAN ALBANA, on ?tait enthousiasm? par leur projet d'un ?tat islamique qui s'?tend de la medeterran?e jusqu'au golf.c'?tait un r?ve ?ph?mere,ces livres l? ont fait un lavage de cerveau pour des g?nrations sauf les ?veill?s et les avertis par les professeurs pro-communisme ? leurs ?l?ves.puis les nuits ou bien les veill?es islamiques des groupes de chaque quartier qui discuteent uniquement comment r?aliser le r?ve d'un ?tat islamique,puis les confrontation dans les universit?s lieu du savoir entre les islamistes et les ?tudiants simples qui veulent s'instruire,puis la notion du fetwa qui est introduite dans l'universit? marocaine par les groupes islamistes;m?me les professeurs ne sont pas ? l'abri du fatwa des new-th?ologiens
donc ,je crois que la notion de aljihad ?tait introduite dans l'universit? mais personne ne s'en apercevait.
tout cela pour conclure que les explosions de casa ne sont que le fruit amer de ce long travail destructif.


7:19 pm    May 18, 2003

7:06 pm    May 18, 2003
moul javil
salut a tous
bon les attentas de casa doit etre une lecon a apprendre que l integrisme et l extremisme prend place ds notre societe corrumpue , c est ca la cause de notre "Talfa" le maroc aurait evite ca si chaqu 1 de nous aime son pays et aime travailler et le faire devellope disant au moins le democratiser vraiment pas par les mots, et l important de tout ca donner la parole aux jeunnes et les faire espoir car les terroristes etaient tous des jeunnes victimes des idees qui n a rien a voir avec l islam et qui viennent de l etranger, je tiens a dire aux islamistes"extremistes" et aussi aux socialistes"extremistes" we must preserve our own culture and traditions and we must be open , u make realy our contry down .....
and justice for all...........
moul javil from germany

6:51 pm    May 18, 2003
1-pourquoi l'immigrant marocain discute beaucoup la religion alors qu'il ne faisait pas la pri?re au maroc?
2- pourquoi l'immigrant marocain se sent timide en buvant devant un am?ricain ou s'abstenir de boire ou de fumer alors qu'il faisait ca en plein public et devant ses parents et ses soeurs?

6:13 pm    May 18, 2003

well momo, i do not agree with you regarding the population in america what they do and it is 90% is in the force...u can not generalize brother...there are exception and i bveleive that your percentage is not correct...there are engineers, doctors, lawyers, dentists, professors, cab drivers, waiters, waitresses u name it we are present in all it is obvious that the moroccan community is not into the basic force here only....if you want we can get in further details on this since lmodir said it is out of email is

with my all due respect

moulat lhrira


6:07 pm    May 18, 2003
je suis d'accord avec toi momo, notre societe est corrompue, hypocrite. Nous nous comportons pire que les americains ou memes les israeliens. Prostitution, alcool, corruption, racisme.....sont au coeur de notre societ?. Alors ne dites pas que nous sommes musulmans. La chari3a est-elle notre loi???

Nous sommes des hypocrites, pour ne pas laisser la voie libre aux terroristes, reformons notre soci?t? et revenons au sources, nous les battrons sur leur propre terrain


6:04 pm    May 18, 2003
momo, immigration is a normal and common behaviour of people from under-developed and developing countries. Immigration for many is vehicle to reach one's aspirations, goals an satisfy personal values. This could be gain money, gain respect, gain experience, gain education, adopt a different citizenship, live in comfort.. the reasons are endless. Moroccan immigrants are no exception.

Immigration is important because it helps people know other cultures, their lifestyle, learn from them, teach them about our culture, our lifestyle. Those who have long-term immigration behavior they have their own reasons and one cannot blame them. Those who have short-term immigrantion behavior can be an asset to Morocco.

But momo, you'll probably not agree with me, maybe you will, but your questions were out of the subject. May be we can consider them in a different future discussion ?

Thank you.


6:03 pm    May 18, 2003



5:47 pm    May 18, 2003
le 16 mai va rester graver dans la m?moire des marocains et surtout les jeunes aspirant ? immigrer en europe ou en am?rique, apr?s ces attaques la confiance des occidentaux dans la jeunesse marocaine selon moi a baiss?,le processus de l'immigration et la d?livrance des visas va se resserer.mais j'ai une question :
-qu-est-ce qu'ils font nos immigrants marocains ? l'?tranger?
j'ai un ami immigrant en am?rique qui m'a r?pondu:90% des immigrants travaillent dans le travail g?n?ral forc? dans les usines et dans les restaurants. en europe c'est le vol et la revente des drogues et des voitures vol?es.

5:24 pm    May 18, 2003
questions pour immigrants:
1-pourquoi on se sent pas en s?curit? quand on marche dans les villes marocaines et surtout dans les quartiers populaires.alors que c'est le contraire en europe et en am?rique?
2-pouquoi nos jeunes draguent beaucoup et avec incistance les filles sans leurs consentement contrairement ? ce qui se passe en europe ou bien en am?rique?
3- pourquoi les immigrants donnent une image n?gative par leur comportement (je ne dis pas tous)contrairememt aux autres immigrants comme les chinois et les greques et les italiens et les juifs......

5:12 pm    May 18, 2003

Rasta Gnawi message
Assalamou alikoum.
Les actes de terreur qui ont pris place cette semaine sont vraiment horribles. mais la question est: a quoi bon? tous les morts sont presque marocains, les dommages perpetres peuvent etre facilement repares, je veux dire que les gens qui ont ete touches peuvent facilement reparer leur businesses, et en rien de temps, tout sera revenu a normal, sauf la vie des marocains. Le Maorc, en fete pour la semaine derniere, etait sur une voie d'espoir, pour une meilleure democratie, libre opinion, et une prosperite economique (free-trade accord). Maintenant, il y a des barrages sur toutes les routes, tout le monde est suspect (merci a nos mkadmin), et la vie va se serrer un peu.
des marocains ont endommage des businesses etrangers, tuant d'autres marocains, pour des raisons qui n'ont aucune relation avec le maroc!!

5:09 pm    May 18, 2003
questions pour les immigrants:
1-est-ce que les marocains sont des vrais musulmans ou bien musulmans par tradition et appartenance?
2-pourquoi on fume des hashishs et on boit du vin en plein public dans les rues alorsqu'en europe et en am?rique il n'y a pas ce genre de conduite(sauf dans les bars et les tavernes)?
3-pourquoi on vend nos filles(ex.tiffelt....)alorsque les occidentaux ne le font pas?

5:05 pm    May 18, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
I`m Glad to see some people like you still exist, and happy to hear how you anlyze things you are totally right it is not 7izb al3adalah wa tanmiah, wella al3adl wal2ihsan, who are behind this, because they have no reasons, and they have a deal with al7ukouma,
nairouz, they have done nothing to Moroccans, or if they have done something bad, WELL every body have done something bad, i don`t see how alitihad l ichtiraki would be better than al3adalah wa tanmiah,
WE heard that they found that some of the attackers were from jama3at (attakfir wa lhijra) this jama3ah doesn`t even recognize al3adalah wa tanmiyah, they say that any body who follows any thing else than attakfir w lhijra, is kafir and they should kill him.., that`s why they killed their moroccan brothers and sisters...,
we should be Old and wise enough to differentiate between good and bad.., just like f 3ahd assa7aba, when they were fighting alkhawarij...

4:59 pm    May 18, 2003
les courants int?gristes internationales qui n'ont rien avoir avec L'islam que l'appartenance par le nom se proposent le rem?de des maux des pays majorit? des partisants de ces courants l? ne connaissent de l'islam que i3fou 3ani alihiti wa qasou acharib,ils ne savent m?me pas citer des versets complets du sacr? coran.mais la question demeure comment ils font pour engager le monde;leur client?le a le profil suivant:
1-qu'il soi pauvre issu d'un quartier populaire d?favoris?
2-qu'ilsoit leader criminel dans son quartier pourqu'il puisse donner le bon exemple aux autres apr?s son conversion en islam vrai selon eux.
3-qu'il soit oppress? par les autorit?s pourqu'ils exploitent le sens r?volutionnaire qui dort chez lui.

4:42 pm    May 18, 2003
que dieu b?nit les victimes des attaques terroristes.facteurs de tels actes terroristes:1-ignorance et pauvret? 2-ch?mage des dipl?m?s 3-d?linquence des jeunes 4-mauvaise perception des precepts de l'islam.5-oppression et abus de pouvoirs des autorit?s 6-absence des vertus de L'islam dans le vecu marocain en se souciant plus aux apparences qu'? l'?me de L'islam:vol,corruption,vente de drogues et hashish,mensonges,criminalit?,bagarres quotidiennes entre les voisins,niveau z?ro des moeurs,l'imaginaire des jeunes hant? par l'immigration en europe ou bien en am?rique(haraga).,fumer hashish et boire du vin en plein public dans les rues,prostutution des coll?giennes et des liste est longue.
qui profite de telle sitution:ce sont les courants int?gristes exclus du pouvoir politique qui se veulent comme alternatif pour corriger la situation. a suivre

4:39 pm    May 18, 2003
please casaoui we`re in a situation that none of us wants to hear your expression "DONT BLAME...."
coz all people or association or 7izb
you` re talkin` about ,did hurt lot of moroccan ,u might not know what they did, or you`re are simply ignoring it.
so pleaaaaaase....!!!11

4:37 pm    May 18, 2003