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samir a.
Cupertino USA
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18
comments.
Prosélytisme
12:24:43 PM Saturday Mar 21, 2009


Lu sur LeMatin.ma

http://www.lematin.ma/Actualite/Express/Article.asp?id=109992

"La fermeture de l'école irakienne intervient après une plainte déposée, le 3 mars dernier auprès des services de la police marocaine contre la directrice de cet établissement, par un ressortissant irakien suite au renvoi de trois de ses enfants pour motif confessionnel et exploitation de l'école pour propagation d'un rite religieux déterminé, indique un communiqué du ministère de l'Education nationale, de l'enseignement supérieur, de la formation des cadres et de la recherche scientifique"

Je suis bien curieux de savoir le pourquoi du comment de cette histoire... est ce un prolongement du conflit diplomatique entre l'Iran et le Maroc.


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4:22 am    April 3, 2009

youness yahya message
18
hi all:
Well the stand off btw Morocco and Iran reached a bowling point, in my opinion. this past conflict started when morocco denounce the Idea that Bahrain is a state of Iran, and gave its support to The Bahrain and it's sultan. It wasn't only Morocco who did that but most of the Arabic countries. But Iran rejects this idea by one of it's representative in the government. Morocco asked for an explanation and gave Iran 10 days to response and called off its Ambassador to Iran to discuss, I don't know what the hell that means. Anyway Iran did move a finger so the conflict grew. With the Closing of the Iraqui school, because a journalist of MBC based in Rabat had filled a law suite against the school because the school throw his kids out. So the Minister of education asked for an investigation on this school because they are not following the Moroccan system, teaching religion" atarbiya al islamiya". One of the kids said on TV that when the teacher asked him about the Sa7ab omar al khatab, the kid answered and added" radiya allahou 3anhe" the teacher smacked the kid and told her don't ever say that he's only a sa7aba and that's it. Again asked her about Omouna khadija and the kid again answered with the answer the kid again got smacked, and the teacher told her that she doesn't believe in that and she only believes on the prophet. ...

I don't know if anyway of you recall the wahabies sect in Morocco and how Morocco tried to handle this matter. Well i guess they are doing the same thing, and this time with severe penalties for those who follower other sects beside Al Malaki.

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5:39 pm    March 31, 2009

Adnane Ben. message
17
16
"Anyway, the average Muslim doesn’t even care about these differences in Islam or about the history behind them. This is arcane stuff for most people. Indeed these religious differences don’t impact people’s lives for the better or worse. It only happens when politicians try to manipulate the masses by stirring one side against the other."

I read words that pull my rabbit ears up:

- the average Muslim (please define)...
- this is arcane stuff... (well it still exists in full force)
- most people... (most? who?)
- Indeed... (how did you validate yourself?)


"If a Moroccan strongly believes in being Sunni or Shiite, that’s their business. Honestly, the cookie-cutter approach to people is plain wrong and irrational."

Resisting Shi3a ideologies from affecting Morocco is not a cookie-cutter approach in my opinion. It is simply resistance to a deviant approach to Islam. How many more approaches to Islam do we need? You seem to believe that the more the merrier. If that is true, isn't that a form of indifference. Or perhaps it is a form of I-don't-care-about-religion in the first place. Correct me if I am wrong because I should not be assuming anything about you.

Samir mentioned before that Shi3a after all have a lot in common with Sunnis. I agree, they all believe in the four pillars and perhaps they have even greater commonality. I built my opinion based on television impressions, youtube videos of Imams crying and screaming in mosques while they narrate the story of Ali and his sons. My impressions are from a Shi3i friend of mine who was taught that there is nothing such as Friday prayer and sermon, who frequents a mosque for Shi3a only. My impressions are from photos of people bruising their daughter's heads, and scratching their skins till it bleeds in public. My impressions are from youtube debates between Sunnis and Shi3is where the Shi3is declare the companions are enemies of Islam.

I don't know man. Probably I don't know jack about Shi3a and I am building an uninformed opinion.

Enlighten me, whoever knows better.


·

10:35 pm    March 29, 2009

moha ouhmou message
16
15
Dear Adnane,
I appreciate your feedback. Since you’re asking me a very specific question, I will try to answer accordingly. Also thanks for sending me that link about your previous discussion. It was an interesting read.

Back to your question:
“I'm not sure what is your opinion precisely if one or more Shi3a sects are introduced in Morocco, and how the Moroccan government should deal with it. And how Moroccans, wled sha3b, your families and my families should deal with it.”

1- From a personal perspective, I’m totally fine with having Shiites (in Morocco) as neighbors or as family members or whatever as long as there is mutual respect.

2- From a legal perspective, the Moroccan constitution guarantees freedom of worship for all. Please see Article 6 (of the Moroccan Constitution): Islam shall be the state religion. The state shall guarantee freedom of worship for all.

That would answer your question about how the government should deal with it.

Anyway, the average Muslim doesn’t even care about these differences in Islam or about the history behind them. This is arcane stuff for most people. Indeed these religious differences don’t impact people’s lives for the better or worse. It only happens when politicians try to manipulate the masses by stirring one side against the other.

If a Moroccan strongly believes in being Sunni or Shiite, that’s their business. Honestly, the cookie-cutter approach to people is plain wrong and irrational.

·

12:46 am    March 29, 2009

Adnane Ben. message
15
14
moha, you're very subtle and abstract in this post. I'm not sure what is your opinion precisely if one or more Shi3a sects are introduced in Morocco, and how the Moroccan government should deal with it. And how Moroccans, wled sha3b, your families and my families should deal with it.

On the other hand, I digged out an old discussion on Raioo regarding Shi3a:

------> Shia and Sunna in Islam

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10:03 pm    March 27, 2009

moha ouhmou message
14
12
Dear Adnane,
I guess you nailed it: It is tricky to dissociate a system of belief from the people who practice it. And if one does dissociate the two, the discussion becomes abstract if not dehumanized.

Point is, Islam as a religion is basically a way of having a relationship with God. I think every Muslim (Sunni or Shiite) is entitled to their unique connection with God. And no other Muslim should judge that or get involved in it.

So it is always dangerous when a Muslim or a set of Muslims think that their way of practicing Islam is THE ONLY way to experiencing life. Even worse is when these Muslims (especially if in power) enforce their way. They basically hijack the religion for reasons that are mostly self-serving.

You find this sort of Muslims/systems throughout the Arab world. A lesser example of that in the Western world would be the Bush Administration. But as we all know, democracy and secularism do work. Bush is now gone. Meanwhile...

IRANIAN/ARAB DEMOCRACY=SAME SUNNI, SAME SHIITE, DIFFERENT DAY

You can’t have democracy without secularism. And you can’t have secularism without democracy.

We should not blindly imitate western societies. After all we’re not monkeys. However we should have the humility to learn from them. Western societies are away ahead of us. They’ve been a long time ago in the situation where we are right now. Jean-Jacque Rousseau wrote about the social contract back in 1760. Americans implemented democracy and secularism in 1787.

Wallaho A3lam. If I said anything good it is from me, if I said anything wrong it is from me. And if God spoke through me in any way or shape, then you should put my name on your bumper sticker and give me 10% of your salary.

:-)

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4:19 pm    March 26, 2009

A message
13
Hope springs eternal a ba Samir, so I still hope for the weather to get better after all these years!

It is that self-flagellating business that freaks me out with the Shiites, perhaps if Moroccans were told it is an important part of their rituals, well for the male species amongst them anyway, then they might not be that interested

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4:02 pm    March 26, 2009

Adnane Ben. message
12
11
Excellent questions and observation Moha I must admit. When I say Shi3a, I don't refer to the people themselves. I mean the Shi3a belief. I realize now it is such a subtle terminology that can cause misunderstanding. I am friends with the only Shi3i I know. Just a couple of weeks ago we had dinner outside. He is originally from India. He is Shi3i Isma3ili. I like him, he was my colleague and he is my friend. Most of our discussions are around software, marriage (since he is looking), world conflicts, and sometimes we talk about religion. When we talk about Islam I know that he doesn't reveal all the teachings of his Shi3i beliefs to me, but at least at the end two things happen:

1. I get a huge headache.
2. We agree that there should be no terminologies like: Sunni and Shi3i. That the two virtual threads should reconcile through some sort of highly intelligent, intellectual, authoritative and influential intra-faith dialogue series. The outcome of which should produce only the word Muslim while Sunni and Shi3i words are stricken through.

I reject Shi3a ideology in Morocco because Morocco is not a secular country. Morocco is not France or America or India. My rejection stems from personal vision but also from the directives and constraint the constitution and history of Morocco establishes. Morocco used to have Shi3a, and perhaps other Muslims deviations. Morocco has come a long way spiritually. We should really be thankful and proud that Morocco unites under one Muslim thread Sunni Maliki. I see this as a huge advantage and I applaud our ancestors who worked hard for that. Why should we take this achievement for granted, be indifferent and blow up our ancestors vision just because the new powerful countries establish secularism and diversity of religions. Why should we imitate the west? Why can't we preserve the goodness our ancestors left us with, and build on it to achieve more unity and more success.

Introducing Shi3a to Morocco is parallel to introducing unnecessary tensions, conflicts, spiritual confusion, and we might see more Moroccans of our future generations leave Islam altogether.

Wallaho A3lam. If I said anything good it is from God, if I said anything deviant, wrong or offensive then it is from me. Please correct me with your argument.


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1:19 pm    March 26, 2009

moha ouhmou message
11
Dear Adnane,

“I reject Shi3a in Morocco.”

Ok, would you at least be friends with them in the Bahamas!?

Seriously, it is offensive (it is even illegal in some places/situations) to reject people based on their color, gender, disability, or religious beliefs.

What if the US government deports you solely because you’re a Sunni? You’d hire an attorney to defend your civil (and human) rights, right? Or maybe you’d accept such an event as normal.

Broader question: why do many folks expect western societies to accept/respect ALL people (Sunni, Shiite, Arab, Berber, black, brown, blue, etc.) but they don’t want the same in their own country?

I’m asking because there is a pattern - I’ve met numerous Moroccans, Algerians, etc. who harbor this ambiguity in them.

·

11:42 pm    March 25, 2009

Adnane Ben. message
10
8
Moha, Samir,

Shi3a has many sects. Some of these are not so extremely opposed to Sunnis, and others are. This opposition, whatever form or shape it takes does shake the balance Islam intends to strike in a society. So why should I be receptive of Shi3a in Morocco? Why accept another sect within Islam. If we are speaking of a Madhab within Sunni then that is ok. A Madhab is an Ijtihad. Shi3a is not an Ijtihad, it is a dogmatic ideology born out of political and emotional conflicts. It is not fair of whoever decided a long time ago that there were going to be Shi3a, to mix religion with politics. So my reasoning is that since Shi3a is itself built on political conflicts and injected with some really strange stories and silliness, then I reject it and especially I reject it in Morocco. Christianity and Judaism are known religions in their own rights. Our understanding of Christianity and Judaism may be limited but Islam recognizes them and has directives on how to co-exist with them. Islam did not ask for Shi3a. Islam asks for respecting the renowned companions of the prophet. Shi3a consider most companions evil. Islam asks for not idoling saints and samaritans as humans who intercede between us and God. Shi3a do rely on that saint-God link. Islam asks us to perform the Friday prayer. Shi3a do not perform the Friday prayer. And the list of deviations goes on and on. Why do we need more deviations that are baseless, meaningless and confusing.

In my opinion, Shi3a is responsible for many Iranians who left Islam. These Iranians must have felt that the sect they grew up in and were forced to follow is full of emotional stories and conflict, and marked with strange rituals. You don't hear many Sunnis leaving Islam. You might hear of non-practicing Sunnis, but not always of Sunnis who completely reject the religion.

Shi3a pray in their own mosques. Shi3a mosques. They don't frequent Sunni mosques.

I reject Shi3a in Morocco.

But God can do what he desires. If he wants to enable Shi3a in Morocco, then he has a bigger plan.

If I said anything incorrect or offensive please let me know. I am in dire need of opinion and feedback about this issue. I only got to know about Shi3a 5 years ago. I never heard of them. So the subject is relatively new to me.

·

9:38 pm    March 25, 2009

samir a. message
9
Bravo Moha :-))))) Tres beau jeu de mots, love it :-)))

Amina, I have news for: weather-wise, London always sucks:-)

Adnane, I understand your point; we mustn't be naive and be aware that the theocratic Iranian regime do have a political agenda. Having said that, the diversity is good. I don't understand why you do accept diversity such Judaism and Christianity (I guess that you would accept only the monotheist religion as diversity but something like budihism, Hinduism ...or even better Scientology:-) is a big no-no) but you don't accept shi3a . Shi3a and sunnite do share a lot doesn't it? .. I don't understand your point...

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8:41 am    March 25, 2009

moha ouhmou message
8
5

"I believe in embracing the diversity of religions in Morocco especially Islam and Judaism, but I reject diversity within Islam."

Why?
Does Islamic diversity scare the shiite out of you?
:-)

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8:34 am    March 25, 2009

moha ouhmou message
7
5

"I believe in embracing the diversity of religions in Morocco especially Islam and Judaism, but I reject diversity within Islam."

Why?
Does Islamic diversity scare the shiite out of you?
:-)

·

4:34 am    March 25, 2009

A message
6
Hi Samir, London sucks weather-wise; otherwise mustn't grumble as they say :) How are you my dear? Looong time!

I loved your 'The first sentence is just amazing : mixing the homosexuality issue and shiite propaganda in one single sentence is just .... a stretch!'

Yeah well, homos, Shiites, same thing, hehehe it is just lazy journalism I guess.

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8:43 pm    March 24, 2009

Adnane Ben. message
5
3
The journalist seems to have been short on space so he squeezed in the homosexuality part. Or maybe he wanted the article to appear in colors? :)

But quiet honestly, I approve of the Moroccan government to raise its big ears and be alert to the Shiites. I believe that Shi3a is a big delirium and deviation. We should all stand by our government during this struggle which apparently is just beginning. I believe in embracing the diversity of religions in Morocco especially Islam and Judaism, but I reject diversity within Islam.

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8:21 pm    March 24, 2009

samir a. message
4
BTW, hi Amina!!! it has been a while... hope all is well in London.
·

8:21 pm    March 24, 2009

samir a. message
3
more details from AP.

The first sentence is just amazing : mixing the homosexuality issue and shiite propaganda in one single sentence is just .... a stretch!

----------------

Morocco clamps down on Shiites

By HASSAN ALAOUI – 4 hours ago

RABAT, Morocco (AP) — Morocco's government is clamping down on homosexuality and alleged Shiite propaganda, saying it will tackle any group that threatens moral and religious values in the Sunni Arab kingdom.

A weekend statement from the Interior Ministry about defending those values came after Morocco cut diplomatic ties with Iran and accused it of trying to spread Shiite Islam in the North African country.

Several independent media last week urged Morocco to grant more freedom of speech to gay activists. An Interior Ministry official, speaking only on condition of anonymity because of ministry rules, said Tuesday that the statement referred to the promotion of homosexuality.

"Certain media are taking a stand for certain ignominious behaviors, which is a provocation for the national public opinion," the statement said on Saturday. "Any act contrary to moral or religious values will be repressed."

Though they coincide, the twin moves against Shiite Islam and gay advocates did not appear to be related. Earlier this month, Rabat severed diplomatic relations with Iran, accusing the Shiite Muslim republic of trying to spread its faith in Morocco.

Rights groups have denounced the clampdown, saying it is an unusual step for Morocco — a nation mostly known for tolerance and openness within the Arab world.

Rights groups say about a dozen people have since been arrested in working class neighborhoods of northern Morocco towns on suspicion they had converted to Shiite Islam.

The Moroccan Association for Human Rights warned that "the war being waged by Morocco against belonging to the Shiite rite" is against the country's strong move recently toward democracy and civil liberties.

Recent reports in the pro-government press accuse Iran of using Shiite Islam to undermine the stability of moderate Arab states. Several media quoted unidentified government officials as alleging Iran is trying to create a rift between moderate, pro-U.S. Arab states like Morocco or Saudi Arabia, and more hardline states like Syria.

Iran's influence has been rising in the Arab world, and some in Morocco worry that Tehran could use Shiite Islam to promote its cause. Iran denies this. The Iranian Foreign Ministry has said it was surprised at Rabat's decision to sever diplomatic ties.

On Saturday, authorities closed down the Iraqi school in Rabat, the capital. The closure was triggered by a complaint by parents complaining the school was promoting Shiite Islam, Moroccan media reported.

The school taught about 400 children, mostly Moroccans. The Education Ministry said in a statement that the school was closed because "the pedagogy ... was contrary to the law" on private education in Morocco.

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4:00 am    March 22, 2009

A message
2
There was a news item on 2M which mentioned Morocco's anger at the Iranian embassy which has been actively trying to convert Moroccans to Shi'ism. Morocco has either cut diplomatic links with Iran over this or is threatening to do so, I cannot recall exactly what the Moroccan Prime Minister had said about this. Perhaps this school was part of this Shiite movement. The news item said that Morocco was a part of the Maliki system and would not tolerate this kind of activity inside its territory. Make of it what you will.
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1:03 am    March 22, 2009

Adnane Ben. message
1
It is highly probable. I haven't read anything else regarding this news. But I read a tiny bit on the Moroccan-Iran standoff. The conflict stems from religious proselytizing as well. It could be that the Iranian influence in Iraq is real enough that Iraq is becoming a proxy Iran, and who knows, maybe after the US leaves, it will become to Iran what Lebanon is to Syria. Doesn't Iran have a strategy to be the grand Islamic state exerting political, economic and religious influence over the Muslim world? if that's true, then they must be penetrating our countries one by one through religious influence, before triggering any political or economic tactics. Europeans did the same thing in Africa before occupying it. I heard that in Morocco for example, they try to convince our youth to continue their studies in Iranian universities. They might even be providing financial aids and scholarships. I'm sure the Moroccan youth who are mesmerized by Iran's face off on the Nuclear issue, and Iran's educational and scientific heritage, would find these deals quiet attractive. Once they are in Iran, they become prone to successful religious proselytizing. Once back in Morocco, they might spread Shiism in some form or another.
·

samir a.'s notes (2)
 
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