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Adnane Ben.
Boston USA
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Islam vs. the West Part 1. Building Democracy In an Islamic Nation
12:00:00 AM Sunday Jul 27, 2003

Found on The Rolling Stone magazine issue 928, August 7, 2003
National Affairs section page 35.
? 2003 Rolling Stone

The Rolling Stone Panel
Professor and author of Jihad vs. McWorld
Columnist for the New York Times and author of Longitudes and Attitudes
Director of Middle East Studies at the Council on Foreign Relations
Foreign correspondent for The Atlantic Monthly and author of Blakan Ghosts
Head of Iraqi National Congress
Dean of Harvard's Kennedy School of government
Former Vermont governor and presidential candidate
Columnist and founder of the Middle East Forum
Former ambassador to Saudi Arabia
President of the Arab American Institute

Raioo selected one of the first questions of this debate, more will come in the next political discussions, stay tuned.

Few models exist for building democracy in an Islamic nation. Do we have reason to believe that the circumstances for democracy in Iraq are simply untenable?

BENJAMIN BARBER: In most Muslim nations, democracy has never been tried or has been pushed aside after unsuccessful experiments. In Algeria, it is in deep peril; in Egypt, minimal liberties are being eroded by a fearful government trying to track down its fundamentalist enemies; in Kuwait, democracy is practically invisible, even after the war to liberate it from Iraqi invaders. American allies like Saudia Arabia, Jordan and the oil emirates are hard-pressed to keep up the pretense of even aspiring to be democratic as their regimes struggle to survive.

DANIEL PIPES: Islam poses many barriers to democracy, but so did Christianity and Judaism at points in their history. they evolved. Radical Islam is not a religion, it is a totalitarian ideology along the lines of fascism or Marxist Leninism. After September 11th, it became the responsibility of the United States to come in and destroy militant Islam - it cannot be reformed; it must be defeated. Then we must promote a modern, moderate Islam that is compatible with civil society.

JAMES ZOGBY: This idea that Islam is somehow incompatible with democracy is bogus. People who say this either are braindead or racist. The simple fact is that because of colonialism and imperialism, the Arab world never developed normally and therefore never had the opportunity to undergo the social transformation that ultimately makes democracy possible. England dominated Egypt in the nineteeth century, Italians did the same to Libya, the French did it, too, in Morocco and Algeria. After World War I, the British and French drew lines on maps and created Iraq, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and Palestine. Regimes were implanted, kings were created out of whole cloth. The question is not, "Is Islam compatible with democracy?" But, "Is the social development that exists in the Middle East compatible with democracy?" And the answer is, "Not yet. But it will happen."

RACHEL BRONSON: Arab countries get their money primarily from two sources - oil and foreign aid - which means they don't rely on the participation of their population to generate revenue. The government owns the oil and gets the foreign aid, so there's been absolutely no reason to diversify the economy and encourage enterprise and innovation among the populace. There's no taxation, there's no representation.

So what do you, Raioosters, think, given the case of Iraq, about one of the first questions of this debate: Few models exist for building democracy in an Islamic nation. Do we have reason to believe that the circumstances for democracy in Iraq are simply untenable?

More questions and answers in this debate to come in the next Raioo political discussion.

The content of this page —graphics, text and other elements—is © Copyright 2007 prospective author, and Raioo, Inc., only when stated otherwise, and may not be reprinted or retransmitted in whole or in part without the expressed written consent of the publisher.

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10:17 am    August 5, 2003
be cool as chid
this the last part of it
There is a spiritual awakening taking place that will not be squelched! We do not need more religion. We do not need more gaudy television evangelists spewing out verbal religious garbage. We do not need more million dollar church buildings built while people with basic needs are being ignored. We do need a change of heart and a humble acknowledgment that this nation was founded on the principle of simple trust in God!" "As my son Craig lay under that table in the school library and saw his two friends murdered before his
very eyes-He did not hesitate to pray in school. I defy any law or politician to deny him that right! I challenge every young person in America, and around the world, to realize that on April 20, 1999, at Columbine High School prayer was brought back to our schools. Do not let the many prayers offered by those students be in vain. Dare to move into the new millennium with a sacred disregard for legislation that violates your God-given right to communicate with Him. To those of you who would point your finger at
the NRA - I give to you a sincere challenge. Dare to examine your own heart before casting the first stone! My daughter's death will not be in vain! The young people of this country will not allow that to happen!" Do what the media did not - - let the nation hear this man's speech.
send this out to everyone you can!!!


10:14 am    August 5, 2003
be cool as chid
... This is a historical fact. What has happened to us as a nation? We have refused
to honor God, and in so doing, we open the doors to hatred and violence. And when something as terrible as Columbine's tragedy occurs - politicians immediately
look for a scapegoat such as the NRA. They immediately
seek to pass more restrictive laws that contribute to
erode away our personal and private liberties. We do
not need more restrictive laws.
"Eric and Dylan woul d not have been stopped by metal
detectors. No amount of gun laws can stop someone who
spends months planning this type of massacre. The real villain lies within our own hearts. Political
posturing and restrictive legislation are not the answers. The young people of our nation hold the key.

10:11 am    August 5, 2003
be cool as chid
sorry...this can't hold all the here is the following
"I am here today to declare that Columbine was not
just a tragedy-it was a spiritual event that should be forcing us to look at where the real blame lies! Much of the blame lies here in this room. Much of the blame
lies behind the pointing fingers of the accusers themselves. "I wrote a poem just four nights ago that
expresses my feelings best. This was written way before I knew I would be speaking here today":
Your laws ignore our deepest needs, Your words are empty air.
You've stripped away our heritage,
You've outlawed simple prayer.
Now gunshots fill our classrooms,
And precious children die.
You seek for answers everywhere,
And ask the question "Why?"
You regulate restrictive laws,
Throu! gh legislative creed.
And yet you fail to understand,
That God is what we need!
"Men and women are three-part beings.. We all consist
of body, soul, and spirit. When we refuse to acknowledge a third part of our make-up, we create a
void that allows evil, prejudice, and hatred to rush
in and wreak havoc. Spiritual presences were present
within our educational systems for most of our nation's history. Many of our major colleges began as
theological seminaries.

10:08 am    August 5, 2003
be cool as chid
here is the transcript
"Since the dawn of creation there has been both good !
and evil in the hearts of men and women. We all contain
the seeds of kindness or the seeds of violence. The
death of my wonderful daughter, Rachel Joy Scott, and the deaths of that heroic teacher, and the other
eleven children who died must not be in vain. Their blood cries out for answers."
"The first recorded act of violence was when Cain slew his brother Abel out in the field. The villain
was not the club he used. Neither was it the NCA, the National Club Association. The true killer was Cain, and the reason for the murder could only be found in Cain's heart."
"In the days that followed the Columbine tragedy, I was amazed at how quickly fingers began to be pointed at groups such as the NRA. I am not a member of the NRA. I am not a hunter. I do not even own a gun. I am not here to represent or defend the NRA - because I don't believe that they! are responsible for my daughter's death. Therefore I do not be lieve that they need to be defended. If I believed they had anything to do with Rachel's murder I would be their strongest opponent."

9:51 am    August 5, 2003
be cool as chid
as far as our kids are concerned in this country...let me invite u to read this
i don't usually send this type of email, and I haven't had the chance to verify this, but it touched me as something very critical to many of the problems in our society today...
I hope you take the time to read it. -rachid
Columbine update -

On Thursday, Darrell Scott, the father of Rachel Scott, a
victim of the Columbine High School shootings in
Littleton, Colorado, was invited to address the House
Judiciary Committee's sub-committee. What he said to
the national leaders during this special session of
Congress was painfully truthful. They were not
prepared for what he was to say, nor was it received
well. It needs to be heard by every parent, every
teacher, every politician, every sociologist, every
psychologist, and every so-called expert! These
courageous words spoken by Darrell Scott are powerful,
penetrating, and deeply personal. There is no doubt
that God sent this man as a voice crying in the
wilderness. The following is a portion of the



3:01 pm    August 1, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
Suite :
If you Read the Quran you can see clearly that it says You only can marry more than one wife if you can treat them equally, AND YOU WILL NOT TREAT THEM EQUALY. so there is no question for somebody who knows his religion well, to marry more than one, BECAUSE God said that we will not be able to treat more than one equally. BUT now we have 4 Girls and a Boy as statistics and if we have a war(la9addarra allah) so many men will die, so we will end up with many women and few men, who do you think should take care of these women who are without husbands and fathers to take care of them, In that Case my Sister or yours shouldn`t be Greedy, and they should know that this roukhssa, is Only valid for some cases like this, because Allah know better than us that`s why he gave this roukhssa to us, so we wont end up with more than 50% of the population homeless, and most of them will have to do (prostitution) to feed them selves...., so i`d rather have 50% unhappy than to have them homeless(prostitutes)
There is no Room in Islam for something called TORTURE, in some cases you need to show the punishment publicly, for a reason....,

I don`t see how you can`t see that Islam does have room for Civil Rights !!!??? even animals have their Rights..., Islam Is not old to adopt to the modern society , wach rebbi kaygoulinna sali7 likoulli zaman wa makan, wana ngoul lla rah 9dime....


3:00 pm    August 1, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
All Laws are Clear in the First Time, and by the time some body else get to power they change what they don`t like. and Things As well here can get Fuzzy and could become Tricky.
Chari3a is not an ASSUMPTIONS and relative judgement from clerics or Imams, those Imams and Clerics get their (Assumptions) as you named it from the Quran and Ahadith,
Shari3a can not be applied with success, not entirely at least , simply because the world has changed... Alqur2an sali7 likoulli zaman wa makan, Chari3a can be applied Right now and WITH GREAT SUCCES if People are willing to.

Cutting Thiefs hands : God wouldn`t give us something that will make us suffer, I`ll give you some statistics that they gave last year, they calculated how much a Person cost in Prison during a Yearand the Average was 33,000 Dollars, for each Person. so This guy steals and then you give him a Room + food , and that costs you 33000 a year, when he gets Off he can do it Again, and then you will have to take care of him again.
if you cut his Hand why would you have to feed him ? is it your responsibility? no, Plus wouldn`t others be scared to steal when they see that you cut peoples hands if they do so ? OR let`s say you had 500 dollars,as your monthly salary after paying the rent etc.., your kids and wife are waiting for you to bring them the money, on your way some body stole it from you , if you catch him i bet you would kill him not only cut his hand. Plus there are rules on cutting peoples hands in islam, you don`t cut some body who stole 10 dollars or stole some thing to eat.

a suivre


6:48 am    August 1, 2003

Antr McShaddad (Yahia.L) message
I would rather see a democracy in the muslim countries based on clear laws writen black on white, not on assumptions and relative judgement depending on the degree of faight or knowledge of a cleric or Imam. because then things get fuzzy and could become tricky...

Shari3a can not be applied with success, not entirely at least , simply because the world has changed...
you can not cut off the hand of a person who did not respect the copy right of a certain product, just because it is considered as a thieft.

Besides, I think that cutting off the hand of a person could be even a costly punishement, because you will have to feed the guy until he dies...Assuming that you would not agree on letting him beg
for food in the streets...

You can not allow a man to marry more than one woman, because you will get at least 50% of the population unhappy with such a law...(ask your own sister about the matter)

I would not like to see moroccans getting physically tortured in public for commiting a felonny....there are other means of making a person pay for his crimes...

On the other hand, the western democracy is designed for poeple who live in the western world,
and does not care about poeple who live outside of it.
In otherwords, western poeple who live under a western governement do enjoy it's confort, yet their system treats poeple living at the outside, as if they would be less than humans...
The life of a "westerner" -as they call it- is worth much more than 10 lives of a none westerner.

The bottom line is, the model of the western democracy is, by large, based on power and domination of the opponent (Seek and conquer).

The religious model is too old to adopt itself to the modern and complexe society. it should be upgraded giving room to civil rights...

For the time being...I think Morocco would be better off, if only the laws withing the constitution would be known, respected and applied 100% by everybody, regardless of his rank...


3:23 pm    July 31, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
Suite :
I`ll give you an Example why Democracy AS IS NOW wouldn`t work ,
Let`s say you bought a Machine , and with it they gave you a Guide how to use it , if you use the Guide correctly you will work the Machine just fine, But if you take part of it and leave part it won`t be perfect, but if you leave the whole Guide and try to work it out by your self , would it work ? No......
Same thing to this Life, Allah Gave us Life (Machine) and gave us a Guide(Quran) how to work it out, if we use teh Quran(Guide) we will work it out just fine, if not we will go astray, To me it is as Easy as That.....

3:22 pm    July 31, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
I`m not quite sure but it sounds from your Message that you have been sarcastic, OR you haven`t read my Post correctly,
I said that when a Law is made by MEN it can be changed any time by the Same Men..., the EXAMPLE of the Tunisian President is just to show you that a good man today doesn`t mean a good man Tomorrow, a man who has all the power and rule by whatever he likes will never think about others, he will make the law that will benefit him and ONLY him. not like when the khulafa used to rule they used to say to their advisers, idda i3wajajtou fa 2assli7ouni, Omar Ibn alkha66ab when he was amir almu2minin, knew one time about a woman who is blind and she doesn`t have any body to take care of her, so he decided to go and help her every day after he prays alfajr, so next day he went to help her and he found that she had every thing done, he asked her who did this , she said it was abu bakr assiddi9, he went and asked him why he did it he could have asked somebody else, he said i`m amir almu2minin , and hia men ra33ia diali i`m the one who is suppose to take care of her, and so many stories about how were alkhulafa2 arrachidine, WHY WERE THEY LIKE THAT ? because they feared ALLAH and the rule they followed wasn`t made by them It was made by ALLAH.
I didn`t find where you saw that i said, the law in the US permit cutting theives hands !!????


12:49 am    July 31, 2003
What do you think of countries like Iran or saudi arabia who pretend to apply Islam in their everiday life?
i would be curious to know your reactions guys.

Knowing that in saudi arabia they put people in jail because they are accused to preach christianism!(you know those poor guys coming form south asia and working in arabia saoudia like slaves).


4:08 pm    July 30, 2003

Aziz Bezza message
So democracy doesn't work because the presidents may change their minds and stay in office forever!!!!!and the big example of democracy is Tunisia and its coward president!!!! and the law in the US permit cutting theives hands!!!
your arguments sound !!!!! but thanks for the discussion.

10:04 am    July 30, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
Very good question. I think that the US model of 4 years, extendable to 8 years, is attractive.

9:33 am    July 30, 2003
j'ai lu pas mal de messages et je trouve que c'est constructif ce qu'on dit, sauf qu'il y a des personnes qui ont encore de la confusion ? tirer clair, L'ISLAM N'EST PAS L'ENNEMI DE LA D?MOCRATIE, c'est la bureaucratie, l'analphab?tisme et la pauvret? et tout ce qui en suit. quand on va au commissariat, c'est pas un Imam qui va nous faire chier pour finir notre proc?dure d'obtention d'un passeport, mais bien un policier mal habill?, mal ras?, et qui sent parfois l'alcool et qui n'a peut ?tre pas fini sa secondaire, et l?, je vois pas comment on peut accuser l'Islam.
et des exemples comme ?a, y en a des milliers et qui n'ont aucun rapport avec la religion, mais bien des habitudes qu'on a beaucoup de mal ? les laisser de cot? pour une raison ou une autre.
la solution ne sera pas du tout de calquer un model de d?mocratie import? sur mesure, mais chercher dans nos sources, et entre autre, notre religion .... je pense que la majorit? d'entre nous vit ? l'?tranger, et on voit bien comment la d?mocratie est appliqu?e : t'as pas le droit de donner une ?ducation ? ta guise pour tes enfants, m?me pas une conversation ? haute voix avec ta femme, sinon le 911 est toujours sous ?coute, et on voit bien le rapport enfant / parents .....
je suis pas mari? et j'ai pas d'enfants, mais j'ai vu pas mal de choses dans ce genre.
je pense qu'on est loin de l'Islam pour pouvoir le juger, il faut d'abord l'appliquer pour voir si ?a va marcher ou pas, mais la le Maroc est laique et ses probl?mes l'ont aussi.

9:00 am    July 30, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
For the tunisian President , i forgot to mention that he has been a president for 15 years ago, since he toppled bourgiba , saying that he was old to be a president, and now he changed the limit age for the president from 70 years old to 75 years old, so he can be elected for 1 or times more...

8:56 am    July 30, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
Suite :
* What is the problem with having a government that gives you the freedom of worship and treats all citizens equally before the law. (a law that is agreed upon and protects every citizen.)?
The problem is that this GOV doesn`t Exist, because these people when they get to power they forget about their principles( you remember when Zinel3abidin ben ali became a president the first thing he said is that he will get rid of the presidency for ever , and now he changed the law so he can be a president for 1 or 2 times , for 5 years each,) this is what will happen if MEN make the law, because they will always find a reason why to change it, In Islam achoura doesn`t mean that every citizen have to agree about a law, NO only some people that are very well educated , as we saw f 3ahd the prophet he didn`t make choura with all the Muslims but with his companions and the leaders of the tribes...,

8:56 am    July 30, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
Aziz :
* In the case when a citizen is atheist or from another religion, would apply Islamic rules on him/her?
Yes there are laws for non Muslims, if you are a christian and decided to live in a muslim country you will be just like every body, will pay aljiziah , instead of zakah for muslims , instead of applying islamic laws on them we apply al7irabah, as i said before Islam didn`t leave any thing uncovered, Allah said ( alyawmma atmamtou lakoum dinakoum, waraditou lakoumou l2islama dinan) there are so many stories about how the prophet(PBUH) and the sa7aba and khulafa2 used to treat the non Muslims, and how we should all live together, Some people may say well i`m christian if i steal i don`t my hand to be cut, you might agree with him, but don`t the US who is applying this Famouse Democracy do the same thing ? every country applies their laws on every body, Allah said :??? ??????????? ??????? ???? ????????? ???? ?????????????? ??? ???????? ?????? ????????????? ???? ??????????? ???? ???????????? ???????????? ?????????? ????? ??????? ??????? ?????????????? .


8:55 am    July 30, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
Suite :
Regarding the Mosques I Think that we need reform people need reform not the mosques because people are the ones controlling the mosques and making them the way they are now, WHY ? because they are controlled by the GOV, as you said they are just a place for prayers, and nothing else, and that is not how the mosques were f 3ahd arrassoul(PBUH) you go to a friday prayer and you come back with nothing why? because the speech was written by wizarat al2aw9af wachu2un al2islamia, and of course it will talk about what they want us to hear, so it is a dectated speech as you said, why don`t we let the Imam choose his speech? because he might speak about things that the GOV don`t wanna tell people , I agree they should monitor the mosques so we won`t have unauthorized mosques where they tell kids that somebody who drinks is kafir..., Why are the mosques like this ? it is because we don`t have the mosques like they should be according to Islam, Mosques f 3ahd alkhulafa2 used to be for prayers, meetings, debates, political decisions, war decisions, every thing used to be discussed in the mosque, and almost after every prayer there is a speech or a short maw3idah, or story, In Morocco mosques have to be closed 15 minutes after the end of the prayers, here in the US that is not an Islamic country mosques are open more than in Morocco, there are schools in the mosques, kitchens, playground, conference rooms , libraries, etc..., so people don`t go only to mosque to pray, you meet people , In Morocco you can`t stay with a group outside the mosque , why? all this because of the GOV because they think if they allow such things in the mosques we will have Radicals and they will raise against the GOV, they do this not for peoples security but for their own security,

8:54 am    July 30, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
It will take me hours to tell you what we should teach our kids in school in these hours, i said these words that has a lot in them (teach them that Islam doesn`t contradict Science) by that i meant that we should have teachers that will teach them about I3jaz allah in Physics, in letterature in math in science,Etc..., make the kids understand why we do this this way and not the other way. andswer their questions By Proofs, don`t just tell them naddirch hadi 7it 7aram, you have to cinvince them.
For this to happen you mentioned the obstacle of teachers, There are Obstacles in every thing and if we give up because of obstacles we won`t reach any thing, so we just need to form good teachers and PUT THE RIGHT PEOPLE ON THE RIGHT PLACES, kids love to hear about stories and about people who lived before us, and how one should be to be a good man or woman, answer their questions don`t tell them tatekber wte3raf.

a suivre :


8:00 am    July 30, 2003
sallam 3alaykoum,
Islam = Democracy in certain ways .
like when it comes to being fair (la dalim walla madloum).
but compared to democracy that we know , the two are so faraway from each other . Democracy consists on two parts :
-length of time the president rules (4years +)
We muslims believe and dont in the western democratic system i mean some of us do and some dont.(freedom of speech,liberty,peoples vote,elections,presidency....)
the big issue here is and please put the image in front of you , if we lived in an islamic democratic country should the president /amir rule for 4 years or for life like it was in the caliphs time ? and which one do u think will be better ?

1:04 am    July 30, 2003
welle we should start to learn that islam was not the only religion in morrocco some centuries ago!
The first religion in morroco was judaism, and the contribution of berber jews has counted in history of morroco, specially in cultural aspectes(cooking, clothes , jewelry etcc..)
Now things are different since the birth of israel etc...
I hope we can build an open minded morroco some day...

12:40 am    July 30, 2003
except islam? what about chi3a? they have reaaly strange habits, similar to some paganisms!

8:06 pm    July 29, 2003

Aziz Bezza message
i picture very well what you said.A secular Morocco remains just a dream for many. But the fact is our constitution is almost french with some touches from islam. Add to it that we don't really have an islamic way of life. The big obstacle is the civil status. the question is why be sandwiched between Islam&west?and by the way Jewish people in Morocco have their own civil status which doesn't cause any problem.the harmonization under a secular system is hard to achieve but not impossible.

7:12 pm    July 29, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
Aziz, as attractive as your idea is to me personnaly, I find it very difficult to apply in Morocco. I would love to see a Morocco that defines law based on COMMON SENSE. I'd love to see a Morocco where your religion does not paint you with red, blue, white or green paint. I'd love to see a Morocco where jews, christians hindous etc are treated not as such but as HUMANS.. not as wash shefti hadak lihoudi 7ashak, or nassrani weld la7ram.. I'd love to see a Morocco where all of this people come to do research, to study, to work, because they know they will be respected, and not looked at with rolling eyes or threatened.

Our society believes soooo much that Islam is somehow like air, it should be applied everywhere just by spreading some kind of powder in the air like magic and saying some magic word: la ilaha illa llah mohammed rassoulou llah.. and that islam is everywhere, in economics, politics, school, street.. it is amazing Aziz how our society thinks of Islam. I see no way out of it really. the dogma is deep. People's perception of Islam HAS to change, if we are to ever enjoy each other to start with.


6:01 pm    July 29, 2003

Aziz Bezza message
with regard to your Islamic view of a society, one might raise some quetions.
* In the case when a citizen is atheist or from another religion, would apply Islamic rules on him/her?
* What is the problem with having a government that gives you the freedom of worship and treats all citizens equally before the law. (a law that is agreed upon and protects every citizen.)?

I would like to read your take on that .
thank you


5:55 pm    July 29, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
Ok, now you're starting to suggest :) Ok so in your post if I were to squeeze one of the thoughts, must be that you suggest more hours of islamic education in school in Morocco. That's a concrete suggestion, good. But then again, can you think more about what could be taught in those hours... Let me build more on this good suggestion. Could be taking the class for a walk in the city, the souk, the mosque, and have them observe the people, observe the mistakes, the good elements, the bad elements, and discuss these things on a paper, or in class. I can think of inviting the physics teacher to the islam class and discuss together some scientific phenomenon...

School in Morocco need to start introducing research at all levels, have students go out in society and observe, and write about things. That's one of the better ways to get in touch with reality at an early age, and start thinking at least in the back of your mind about: Are you comfortable with that? how can you fix things.. or if you like some elemnts, be inspired, and how can you make it better.

Also, education seems to be your and many others, including myself, number one solution to build a better Morocco. But I personnaly believe that the major obstacle will be to develop good teachers, who are ultimately motivated and self-driven.

Without good teachers, you will have a machine that has little or no oil, and pieces will start to fall off, to rust, to get stuck and at some point it won't work at all bringing the whole thing to halt.

So for those extra hours of islamic education you're suggsting, I believe it will be important to assign GOOD teachers, who are capable of inspiring the kids. Otherwise, you'll probably bore the kids to death, or make them avoid getting intimate with the teachings of Islam. Kids need good mentors in order to develop into extraordinary human beings.

Also, how about our mosques back home! I believe that our mosques need REFORM in the way they operate! Especially after I've seen some of the American mosques here in Massachusetts (especially Wayland). From what I've noticed in the mosaues I went to in Morocco, they have become a place ONLY to pray; and on Friday speech you rarely get inspired, satisfied, you rarely feel the urge to change form within, because the Imam speech was not so enlightening and intelligent. Most Mosques in Morocco are not delivering up to the inspirations of Islam and of Prophet Mohammed. They need careful reform. Care of mosques more, clean them more, teach the people the adab of Mosque and of being clean, deliver Friday prayers that talk about adab, about caring for yourself, your parents, familly, about loving your countyr, about admiring the achievements of the west, about talking nicely to strangers, to foreigners, about realizing when you're wrong and admitting it, there'a a pool of things to talk about in the mosque either on Friday or in other organized public meetings, debates etc... don't mention politics, don't be biased, don't deliver a dictated national speech, but rather deliver content that goes along with a National vision of civil education. It's ok if the government monitors mosques, but it should monitor that they are doing all these things and more... that if we call the mosque the first school of a society...

4:50 pm    July 29, 2003
Is there any non-difficult approach we can take to better a society? I think not. I answer your question and say that EDUCATION under Islam?s wings is the only way to achieve faster results. I like the way we learn Islam in Morocco very loving and peaceful. There is, however, the Issue of the imported, ?radical? more like devilish tapes and books that people in morocco often resort to as other sources of Islamic education, something to consider. I also think that good values and principals should be restored in our society. How many liars, back stabbers, ungrateful Moroccans (to be specific) did/do you know, and that has nothing to do with religion.

We failed in our society, but we know that Islam was never the reason behind our failure. The west (America in particular) is proclaiming that Islam opposes Democracy!!! Let?s first define democracy. According to Webster Dictionary Democracy means: ?1 a : government by the people; especially : rule of the majority b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections?. Now does Islam oppose to this definition? If so, please take liberty to explain to us. I presume that most if not all of us have had a lesson or two about ?A Shoura, Al-3adl, mousawat, ?etc? either in a mosque or in school. The U.S. on the other hand is far from being a democracy, at least not until I see a nonwhite president, they?re all full of it?.more to come but we should all remember the P.I.M.P (Power of Islam in Muslim Palm).

Peace N Love


4:49 pm    July 29, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
Education, that is the key Word my Friend,
I disagree with you when you said that : the basic principles of any religion when adopted can achieve a better world, If you meant Religions as of today, Because all Religions have been reformed except islam, Indeed the very first Principles can achieve a better world .

Islam in Most of the Arab world is a heritage, People are Muslims because their parents are Muslims, what we need to do is to Educate People about Islam, Educate them that Islam is not some thing for people when they grow up, or only for those who has complexes, we should make them get to Islam by reading about it, and not by following our fathers and mothers, Instead of having 2 hours for tarbia islamia in a week, we should have at least 6 hours, and in this 6 hours we should teach our youth that Islam doesn`t contradict Science, But indeed it encourages us to look for the proof in any thing allah says ( 9ul hatou burhanakoum in kountoum sadi9in) so if we tell our kids Islam is the perfect Religion we should tell them the reason why, and not just force them to accept it like it is,
I grew up like that If you do this you`ll go to hell, if you do this you`ll go to heaven, and when you go to school same thing..., NOW when i need to know the proof about every thing i go read and educate my seld about these things that i should have known when i was a kid, if we don`t give our kids a rich background about their Religion, it will be EASY for them to go astray Either become muta6ariff, and go blow up people because others brainwashed them, or forget about Religion at all and say al2iman fel9alb.
So the solution is in Our Hands and not in America`s Hands....


4:42 pm    July 29, 2003

2:55 pm    July 29, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
Nego, I did absorb your recent reply as well your previous replies and I understood your point of view. However, I am afraid to tell you that you have set an amazingly HIGH description of a solution to a perfect world: Islam. I cannot disagree with that, but what I am saying is it is not an EASY thing to do. I am asking what you propose to make that happen. We all know, in a way or another, that the basic principles of any religion when adopted can achieve a better world. Islam adds more falvor and spice when it introduces processes, guildelines to follow if fit, in many domains: politics, economics, business, sex, education, etc. But the question remains my friend:

How can we make our arab societies UNLEARN their so-called Muslim religion, and get them again to slowly, even if it takes 200 years, LEARN Islam in a way that can make the societies better and more capable in most areas of life.

Remember, one cannot force religion on people... remember there are christians and jewish, hindous and mafia, Finding the formula to marry today's arab societies with a better life is an amazingly difficult thing, I believe. I am just trying to think practical, what can be done in practical terms, for the short term or the long term.


2:52 pm    July 29, 2003
Dear Adnane,

A democracy is not practicable in a country with 60% illiterate. So, educate our people, so they can think, and you got your democracy;)
Otherwise choose me as the prime minister, and I will handle wisely the Moroccan money ;). Bye a chateau a la cote d'Azur and Microsoft stocks;)


2:39 pm    July 29, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
Adnane, We don`t talk about Islam as a solution to achieve Democracy !!!!!
In my very last Posting when I compared Chari3a and Democracy I concluded that chari3a is so far better than Democracy, so why would we go from some thing which is the best to some thing worse ?
we might adopt Democracy to achieve Islam`s Goal, but Never Islam to achieve Democracy, Democracy was Created by MEN Islam is Created by ALLAH, and WE HUMANS were created by ALLAH, we should follow what ALLAH gave us not what we created, Because we are not perfect and we will not be Fair ,

Islam serves every body, be a Homeless or be a King, we should all be the Same.
BUT democracy, serves Only the Powerful,

If we apply Democracy we will always have people who are controling us, because they can change the rules when they want,
BUT with Islam People don`t fear any body else but GOD, so they`ll treat you right because they knwo they`ll be judged for that in the hereafter,

America who says they are a Democracy, look how they play with the rules and how they change them so they can be in their side, can you tell me why in the world an American soldier cannot be held responsible for their acts against humanity in Lahay ? galalk e3andhoum 7assana diplomassia, wmal les autres races ydirou chi 7aja yet7akmou >???

this is Democracy they are talking about.
And i don`t think it`s the Perfect solution,
Allah gave us Life and gave us a Guide (Islam) how to work it out, why do we have to create something else, knwing that it will be wrong, since we are just humans, and God knows better than us ......


2:38 pm    July 29, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
Please no foul words, it's irritating to read the F word or alike when there is NO need to use it

kasskroute, give suggestions, I appreciate you're informing me about your definition of democracy, but I'm looking for simple sugegstions, concrete talk, I know many of you just love to be deep.


2:02 pm    July 29, 2003
Dear Adnane rass albanane ;)

Democracy has to do with matters like how we build our moroccan average. If we succeed to create such medium entity, who can think, we got democracy. Democracy is no more than a suitable human organization for the sake of everyone. no one fuck with other, got it ?
Religion gives us moral and ethical values, great for our medium moroccan.


1:34 pm    July 29, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
You guys talk about Islam as the solution to achieve democracy, but I don't see in any of your posts reasonable suggestions - correct if I am wrong please because I might have missed something - how to slowly develop our societies with Islam to achieve democracy. I really believe that our societies need to reform the way they absord religion, they infoltrate religion into our lives since our childhood. I believe that this is not easy, but I wish to hear some tangible suggestions from you, some innovative suggestions, or radical suggestions, or whatever suggestions, just suggest something... man, at the end, we may not be elites to make things happen, to execute things, only elites' ideas end up as rules and laws.. but anyways, you never know, maybe an elite will pick up your idea and take it from there.

1:16 pm    July 29, 2003
I don't know what you heard about me?


1:11 pm    July 29, 2003
sounds like that song got stuck in your head

1:03 pm    July 29, 2003
I share many of your thoughts. I also believe that we muslims have the obligation to ameliorate Islam's image in the world as some try their best even with their own lives to destroy it.
Islam is huge power, we need to learn (again) how to manipulate that power correctly. Taking into account that muslims now make up a large section of the world population.

YES! I truly believe in the P.I.M.P.
Power of Islam in Muslim Palm, just handle it right.

Peace N Love


12:28 pm    July 29, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
Suite :

Let`s compare this democracy now to our chari3a when it was well applied,
For Example 2 Million americans are in Prison by the end of 2002 which means 1/143 Americans are in Prisons, for different crimes, so Even with this Democracy it is still difficult to have a stable society.
When Islam was applied in the Era of Alkhulafa2 , for 400 Yeras, there was only 2 cases of robbery, which means Only two men had their hands cut off, for 400 years by appliying achari3a people lived happily, and the Muslims were leaders in the world they had the best schools, the best hospitals, they were called the civilized world then , because Europe was still living in the dark ages, Europeans used to send their kids to study in Bagdad and Andalusia, The muslims were simply following their religion, they were the most civilized society in the world, But when they forgot about their Religion look how we became,

Americans wants to change the world and have them follow them in every thing, they want us to be civilized, to them civilized is to be like them, we can be like them and forget about our religion , or we can keep our religion and apply it the way it should be and be better than them.

Islam is not against a civilized world, we can live as muslims in the 1st century and we can live as muslims in the 21 century and be civilized , nothing changes ,
Remember we are just passing from this Life the Real life Starts when we die...


12:27 pm    July 29, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
Religion is Every thing in this Life , so Politics is part of religion.

We clearly can see that the west is living better than the Muslim World, and i do agree that Democracy is the Best of what we see Now, BUTwhat do we compare this Democracy to ? we compare it as Aziz said to our "Totalitarian" Regimes, but do these Regimes represent Islam ? I don`t think so, if their way of governing is wacky it is not because they apply Islam to their rules, no but because they went astray from Real Islam, I do Agree that Democracy Now is the closest to the Choura, so that`s why we see that the west is better than the Muslim World, not because Islam needs reforms, or becausse Islam was just for 1400 years Ago .


11:09 am    July 29, 2003

Le monde diplomatique, juillet 2003, p 20:

"La r?v?lation par la presse am?ricaine que, pour des raisons d'efficacit?, la CIA n'a pas h?sit? ? sous-traiter aux Marocains l'interrogatoire de d?tenus de Guantanamo, accus?s de terrorisme, n'est pas faite pour am?liorer l'image de la monarchie qu'on disait r?concili?e avec la dimocratie."
No comment!!!!


8:18 am    July 29, 2003
I came across the following transcript of a debate on PBS between Daniel Pipes and Muqtedar Khan.The latter is a young Pakistani political scientist/academician.I thought his remarks about seeing Islam within the Judeo-Christian traditon were very interesting, The constructive and informative debate covers the topics of sharia, individual rights, secularism, and women's role and rights as well.
I like this remark "Today, many Muslim countries are in various stages of democratization, for example, Indonesia, Malaysia, Bangladesh, Turkey, Iran, and Pakistan. Nearly 800 million out of 1.4 billion Muslims live in democracies, and unlike the U.S., four Muslim nations have or had women heads of government. Turkey, Bangladesh, Indonesia, and Pakistan have elected women to power, and Iran has a woman vice president. I am convinced that it is just a matter of time before the entire Muslim world democratizes. "
Now let me ask this question :
""Can democracy only succeed in a nation where there is a separation of religion and state? """
Let me answer the question by asking you to circle the right statement:
A) The US is the most democratic
B) The US is the most secular
C) It is neither the most democratic nor the most secular
D) Is is both the most democratic and the most secular.

Here is the link:


7:53 am    July 29, 2003
Salam all
it's been a long time:)
wa7ed zelzale dreb lyouma ? l'aube fe casa sans d?gats ( 7etta nnass dyale Rabat rah wselhom )
koullchi 3and sidi rebbi 9rib

7:34 pm    July 28, 2003

Aziz Bezza message
The sharp clash of civilizations that we are witnessing in the last few years _ in my opinion_has nothing to do with religions and as demonstrated in many occasions people from different religious back grounds can live together and with great harmony.
we rather focus on the issue of democracy versus our " totalitarian" regimes. Those regimes, in which most of the leaders use Islam as reference and there for as justification for some wacky ways of governing, bring religion " islam in particular" to the front line of the conflict.
In the other part of the world, largely influenced by the Media, people get the unfortunate echo that Islam & Muslims are to blame.
promotion of democracy in our world remains the only lasting solution. Taking in cosideration that democracy does not undermine any religion.
Negotiator, in a civil society you live your life based on your personal believes, regardless what ignorant people may think about you.

3:24 pm    July 28, 2003
i totally agree with Negotiator...
Democracy? yes....but not their democracy, we need our own democracy that takes into consideration our culture and our religion that we can't just ignore it since it is a part of our lives..

3:10 pm    July 28, 2003
Negociator :
Keep the religion outside of politics and you will see things clear...separation des pouvoirs ;)

3:04 pm    July 28, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
Actually , James Zogby is a Christian Arab as well.

Regarding Pipes`s response, i Think we can see what exactly the West wants to do, to the muslim Nations, They wanna create a modern Islam that is compatible with a civil society, what is a civil society for them? and what is a radical Islam ?

*They think that every woman who wears alhijab, or a man with a beard is a radical,
*They think that every body who goes to the mosque for every salat is radical,
*They think that if you force your kids to go with you to the mosque is radical,
*They think that if you hate what the west is doing to our muslim brothers ,you are radical.
*If you don`t agree about the creation of Israel you are radical.

And what is a civil society for them ?
is society that you can do whatever you want without being held, meaning, even if you are in a muslim country, you should allow alcohol to be served, you should allow bars to be open, you should allow streap-clubs to be open, you should be like the Europeans and americans who they call a civil society,
BUT they forget that their definition of a civil society contradicts most of our cultures, not mentioning Religion.

Allah said (inna nazzalna addikra wa inna lahou la 7afidoun) so even if they try to create a moderate Islam, THEY WILL NOT SUCCEED, Because Allah said again ( youridouna liyou6fi2ou nourra allahi bi2afwahihim, wallahou moutimmou nourihi , walaw kariha alkafiroun) .


2:46 pm    July 28, 2003
hadak JAMES ZOGBY ,Zoughbi tout court, a touche la corde, le reste c'est du labkhour ;). Democracy is the highest degree of human organization, western countries are on the right way, the others too ;)...

2:46 pm    July 28, 2003
I couldn't agree more Mr JAMES ZOGBY.

According to Islam, "A Shoura" is a fundamental caracteristic of any muslim leader. I don't understand how people can easily seperate democracy from Islam.

Certain people have different ambitions, greedy, to obtain certain goals, yet they disgustingly use the religion as pretext and portray it, or help portray it, as if it was the obstacle to democracy...Bull crap.

Peace N Love


7:22 pm    July 27, 2003

Antr McShaddad (Yahia.L) message
Ahmad Chalabi, the so called head of the Iraki national congress, is not even an Iraki...he is a Lebaneese dirty businessman , who is wanted by the Jordanian as well as the swiss authorities for smuggling 35 million dollars, among other frauds he commited before escaping to the US..

Funny enough, he was one of Bush's favorit exaled "irakis" to take over the power in Irak .Fortunatly, that couldn't happen, because the Iraqis are well informed.

In the list above, the only Arab mentioned, is a wanted criminal ...
Arent there enough Arab or Muslim thinkers who would be qualified to take part of such a penel ?
Because after all, it concernes democracy
in Islamic countries...


3:10 pm    July 27, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
In DANIEL PIPES response, what do you think are the barriers Islam poses to democracy PIPES is thinking about ?

Adnane Ben.'s notes (341)
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American Muslim Fun Video Blogging!..
Open War in the Middle East?..
Touche Po a Mon Zidane!..
Ronaldinho Joined Zawya....
Draw Live!..
Zoo Animals Need e'space..
Les ABRANIS: Prodigy of Rockabyl..
Sofiane Saidi: Cet Algerien Trip-rai Hopper..
Lemchaheb Legacy ..
Zahra Hindi, Beautiful You!..
Jajouka's Winds of Moroccana..
Google Language Translation: English to/from Arabic..
Aziz Mekouar, Ambassador of the Kingdom of Morocco to the US..
Google Shoots Microsoft.. One.. More.... Time!..
Monsieux Mehdi Ben Barka: Un Marocain Assassiné Qui Visait P..
Yale, Taliban and Weld L'Hashemi....
Near-eastern Muslim Scholars..
Three Algerians on Highway =]..
Moroccan Riverdance!..
Moroccan Candle-toe Dance..
Moroccan Qassida: Vraie Poesie!..
LA3MARNA Legacy..
Chilling Like a Mqedem in Morocco..
Alone in the Wilderness..
Are Iranians and Americans Blowing it Up?..
Are we a virus..?..
How come Morocco is silent to Dalfour, Sudan?..
Barreling Towards an Iraqi Civil War..
Pomme and Kelly ..
Intelligent Design and Evolution in not so American lands..
The Prophets animated by Steve Whitehouse..
More with Claudio Bravo..
Muslim Texans..
Hajj Stampede Gone Ugly!..
Self-portraits 001-002..
Why Faith?..
Online 7awli Souk!..
2006 !..
Derbouka Bled Attack..
Adopted HIV kids from Romania..
Operation Mapping Raioo Love!..
They burnt themselves.. Come'on!..
My Winamp Skin: The New Beetle..
The Forbidden Zone film that electrified me!..
Cousins skyblogging..
Chilean artist in Morocco..
Moroccan Blue tops colors!..
Osama in FAMILY GUY..
Baraka Art..
Itsy Bitsy knowledge..
The most misunderstood [and growing..] world religion, Islam..
Moroccan Christians..
Polygamy in USA..
Architecturing to joy!..
This Moorish cult in America..
The Magnificient King Vulture..
Al-Rashid and the Fart..
On the subject of Evil Eye..
Anecdote on Life and 3ibada..
Anecdote on Giving in Time of Need..
T-shirt design: L'Amoureux!..
Craig Thompson art..
The Real Origin of Smileys :)..
T-shirt design: Happy Sailor!..
T-shirt design: threadless in Kufi..
T-shirt design: Magic e-lamp..
My August '05 T-shirt Designs ..
Your Living Space..
The Raioo Story: 2. in the garden..
The Raioo Story: 1. intro..
Arabic Beat and Instrument Music Wanted!..
RA?NA RAI Legacy..
Algerian Chaabi..
Nour L'Koufi (Gharnati)..
Hidalgo in Morocco..
Le Secret d'Elissa Rhais..
Imam Shafii. Soni N'nafssa..
Feqqas (Moroccan Biscuiti)..
Casablanca Connect..
ZEBDA! Un Groupe Genial!..
Al Moutanabbi. Idha Ghamarta..
Imam Shafii. sa'fir tajid 3iwada..
Long Distance Honey ..
The Working Wife and Husband..
The Hammam Public Bath: Do you still go there?..
Hip Hop Classic Favorites!..
Down With Love..
Lord Of The Rings..
How To create a Moroccan remix of a video clip ? ..
Why we don't eat Porc?..
Do You Play Music?..
Hidoura: Your Moroccan Natural Carpet..
Khaddouj Slam-dunking From Marrakesh To New York..

Hmida Rass Lmida à L'Avare de Molière!
Moroccan City Names
Shining ability is a gift...
Halloween SPECIAL 2007: La Mort D'une Souri!
Cheikha Rimitti: 83 Years of Life...
Why do we pray ?
short ones
ABSOLUTE RAIOO Summer 2007 Rai vol.2
Cheba Zohra & Mahadattes de Rilizane
Close Encounters of the Moroccan Kind!
Another attempt at writing. Will this language ever feel natural?
North Africa Journal
Moroccan Tattoos
From Los Angeles to Casablanca!
Amina Alaoui Lyrics
Dr. Hassan Al-Turabi
Vulgarity as revolution: Lemsakh we tsalguit
Les Oiseaux De Figuig!
ghir bessyas a moulay!
Moroccan Playing Cards Game ronda v1.0
A Call From Algeria to Help Suffering Little Boy Mounib!

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