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Adnane Ben.
Boston USA
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Islam vs The West Part 3. Beyond Religion in Iraq
12:00:00 AM Saturday Aug 2, 2003

Found on The Rolling Stone magazine issue 928, August 7, 2003
National Affairs section page 35.
? 2003 Rolling Stone

The Rolling Stone Panel
Professor and author of Jihad vs. McWorld
Columnist for the New York Times and author of Longitudes and Attitudes
Director of Middle East Studies at the Council on Foreign Relations
Foreign correspondent for The Atlantic Monthly and author of Blakan Ghosts
Head of Iraqi National Congress
Dean of Harvard's Kennedy School of government
Former Vermont governor and presidential candidate
Columnist and founder of the Middle East Forum
Former ambassador to Saudi Arabia
President of the Arab American Institute

Raioo selected some of the questions of this debate, more will come in the next political discussions, stay tuned.

Previous debate question: Islam vs. the West Part 2. The U.S. fomenting a clash of civilizations or promoting democracy?

How do we get beyond religion in Iraq?

CHALABI: The fear that Iraq will be a theocracy [Raioo?: a government ruled by or subject to religious authority] is unfounded. When you hear that sixty percent of Iraq is Shia, it does not mean they are all fundamentalists and want to be in control. It's the same thing when you say that the IRA are all Catholics. Does that mean that every Catholic is a terrorist?

FRIEDMAN: I don't think Iraq will go the Iran route of a religious tyranny. It's a different society, a different sensibility. Of the sixty percent Shia majority, maybe thirty percent would favor some kind of Iranian-style theocracy. That's only eighteen percent of the population - a percentage that cannot impose its will over the whole country.

ZOGBY: The country is no closer to a secular democracy today than it was when Saddam was in power. Sunnis are recruiting fighters from around the region to join the battle against the U.S. And even the moderate Shias are beginning to see theocracy as a better alternative to the current situation.

So what do you, Raioosters, think, about this third question of this debate: How do we get beyond religion in Iraq?

..stay tuned for more questions from this debate coming up.

The content of this page —graphics, text and other elements—is © Copyright 2007 prospective author, and Raioo, Inc., only when stated otherwise, and may not be reprinted or retransmitted in whole or in part without the expressed written consent of the publisher.

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3:08 pm    August 5, 2003
I have been living in the states for a while and I have never been referred to the way you described,(and I am not bue eyed or blond haired either) a bit of change after 9/11 of course but I UNDERSTAND why. If you are Moroccan and you felt the agrivationI I felt during the may 16th bombing in Casablanca then you should probably undestand why this country's view towards people like us have changed, BUT before 9/11 I have always been treated as a first class citizen, arguably better than the treatement I get in my own mother country?!
At any rate, Sorry about using foul language...
I guess most people on this site don't share my views and it sounds like eveyone is jumping on my case so...I will kindly leave. Sorry if I had upset anyone?!

1:13 pm    August 5, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
don`t use no foul language in here there are minors reading these messages, so be polite if you know how .please....

(3inda raioo ayna yalta9i almaghariba) doesn`t mean that Only maghariba meet there, it means where Moroccans meet, there might be someothers who meet here, just like if you go to a starbucks, and you see moroccans there, we say : moroccans meet there, it doesn`t mean only moroccans meet there....,

Plus this is under Political Discussions, and since Morocco is a muslim and Arab Country, all the Muslims and Arabs and African issues are related to Morocco, so we need to know.., if i come to the states at the airoport they don`t refer to me as Moroccan, they refer to me as arab,muslim ( some times terrorist)
cheers buddy


7:34 am    August 5, 2003
Adnane, thanks for the clarification. the title page says "chez Raioo, where Moroccans meet" so I was a bit thrown off by that but I understand now. Thanks again!

Antr - well my friend, I have no idea what to say to you. I obviously must have hit a nerve with you bubba!
For your reference, the title topic says: Islam vs The west part 3. Beyond religion in IRAQ" last time I checked Iraq was in the middle east. So you probably should move to the the middle east beause it sounds like you care about that more than I. Poor bastard, you have been brain washed too...Allah ghalab?!
I await a topic concerning Almaghreb
shokran, Salam


12:49 pm    August 4, 2003

Antr McShaddad (Yahia.L) message
Maghribi> I know how you feel brother, but
I have seen the same rethorics several times....Maybe it is my turn to repeat what has been repeated earlier several times :

Abviousely on this site, there is a page reserved for each topic...
There is a section where you can suggest a new topic , if you don't like the current one...

Meanwhile you can browse through this site, and you will find several topics related to Morocco...
Maybe by doing so, and IF Miracles do exist...Something interesting might come out that rotten mouth of yours!

As a reminder popcorn head, Islam is a topic related to Morocco, and if you cann't see that , I wonder how you can find on the web. ..

PS: Some Kahlin Riyouss will never learn how to discuss in a civilized way ...let alone how to change a society for the better .

Ciao All !


12:16 pm    August 4, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
maghrebi, Morocco, the west, Islam, and the middle east are all related issues especially nowadays. Prove to me that the west or the middle east does not affect Morocco. Keeping our mind open and discussing all what can affect us increases our understanding of what makes us tick. Also Raioo's nature has been not to focus on only on Morocco's internal affairs, but also on what Moroccans think of world affairs as well. The reason is because Raioo's visitors are also Americans, Europeans, Middle easterners, Asians, Australians, etc. Let me know maghrebi if you still have a concern and I can explain further.

11:30 am    August 4, 2003
I have no idea why us "lamgharba" like to focus on issues that are related to the middle east but seldom discuss our own problems related to the prosperity of our country. It sounds like everyone likes to bitch and mone about how badly treated, how unfair, how bad American are, how evil, blah blah blah . Can we plz discuss issues related to Morocco? there are a sh-t load of them. Here is one:

Morocco, Monarchy, and the 21st century. Is this system suited to get us to the next level.
Plz plz plz, let's di-focus on the middle east for a little bit. As I understand this is a website for Moroccan and Moroccan related issues. If you care so much about the middle east then move your ass there and stop bitching... islan vs the west my ass?!


7:53 am    August 4, 2003

Antr McShaddad (Yahia.L) message
the occupation of Iraq was planned way before Bush took office.
It has nothing to do with freeing poeple, speading democracy or looking for the bad guys...It is simply an empirialistic behaviour wich has been whitnessed all through the centuries ... (Romans, Othmans, Britain, former USSR etc...) and just like all empires, none of them did last for ever, simply because everything has an edge to it...

As far as I can see it now, the muslim nations(along with Islam) seem to be a target....because they can blamed for what ever, and they don't have the voice nor the fist to defend themselves....because of the reasons, we are all aware of...
They are Easy targets, important ones as well....


11:58 am    August 3, 2003 This is an unrelated or foul message..
Hillou :) ... Adnane I have a suggestion ... what about a section that you can call Homework & PAPERS Helpdesk ... where Moroccan students can share their knowledge and help each other ... I thought about this caus I have finals this week ... and I have just finished working on a 10 pages paper ... I think that will be a good Idea ... especially sharing papers ... It's not cheating .. but it can be used as reference ... and you know how hard it is to start the first paragraph ... also I am sure that the majority of the Raooist will agree with the idea and will be eager to see it coming to surface ... Peace ... A caring Moroccan ... :) thellaw ...
P.S: Sorry ... it's not topic related ...

5:51 am    August 3, 2003 This is an unrelated or foul message..
Hopefully you didn?t take my comments as an attack on you or the website.
My proposal was to get people to act and act immediately ?via calls and emails to ther senators? opposing the nomination by President Bush and approval by the Senates.
Going back to your question, Have you noticed how every one is trying to answer it by Vigorously defending Islam?
For pipes ?Pipes' Web site is full of material that bashes Muslims and Arabs. It makes me wonder how a man so clearly biased is in such a high position. Not only that, but why not call a Muslim or Arab to fill the spot? That person would know more about life in the Middle East, and if they are Muslim, they'll know all about the religion itself. I don't think people would like it if I claimed that I was an expert on Asian-American culture simply because I did some undergraduate work in it. I do not know their struggles, so it would be ridiculous. Likewise, Pipes is making a fool out of himself. He isn't even a leading scholar in the field, yet he's promoted himself so much that people believe him. ?
?Pipes have made extreme statements about Muslims and Arabs in various publications. Some of the statements include support for unrestrained profiling of Arabs and Muslims. Similarly, Pipes refuses to condemn the internment of Japanese-Americans during WWII. He also opposes President Bush's "road map" to peace in the Middle East.?
He Claims 10 to 15 percent of all Muslims are "potential killers."
His solution to the mildest issue is arabs/muslims, military defeat by Israel.

8:14 pm    August 2, 2003 This is an unrelated or foul message..

Adnane Ben. message
havana, I believe my question was very clear in that it invites you, the reader, to tell me and others if you know what is on Pipe's mind. My question implies questioning of Pipe's statement rather than accepting it. I hope this clarifies your concern. Reader can refer to the political discusison Islam vs. the West Part 1. for havana's reference. And I'm not sure where you are getting the impression your proposals were hijakced... can you please clarify your concern more concretely? As for your proposed subject, time will come to it, I ask for your patience with this.

6:25 pm    August 2, 2003 This is an unrelated or foul message..
I?m very disappointed on 2 fronts:
1) My questions and the subject that I proposed were never addressed and sadly were hijacked and swapped with a totally different subject
2) NOW the subject that replaced mine and many people are discussing it, has one major flow Adnane ?In DANIEL PIPES response, what do you think are the barriers Islam poses to democracy PIPES is thinking about? Reply? intentionally or not, the way you phrased your question Islam is already an obstacle to democracy and pipes is going to sort it for us.
3) Please read more about pipes and see what he would likes to do with all Arabs and Muslims.


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