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Adnane Ben.
Boston USA
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Political Dogmas In Morocco.. Can We Purge Them?
12:00:00 AM Monday Dec 22, 2003

The problem is that most Moroccans got brainwashed a long time ago. They raised their children based on the rules that they were brainwashed with..

Some of thoses commandments are:

1. Respect your master.
2. Stay away from politics or you are going to die.
3. Do your work quietly, and don't ask for your rights. Don't say the word "Makhzen".
4. You have no rights unless they are given to you.
5. Everything will be given to you, if not, then just sit on your butt and wait for them.
6. As long as you are eating, you are living the best live in earth !
7. Always shut up, unless you were asked to talk!

One wonders if the new generation is able to educate their siblings to break free from these dogmas, without having to immigrate to another country where they are freer to discuss local, world and Moroccan politics.

Is the political system in Morocco hepling the new generations break free? Or is it enforcing the old dogmas and producing more dead bodies afloat the Medditeranean and nostalgic skilled labor to the developped countries?

If one chooses to get rid of these dogmas merely by immigrating to another country, then one might always feel like a foreigner and frustrated that one cannot contribute to the well-being of Morocco.

If one chooses to live in Morocco, be successful, and break free from the dogmas, how can he/she approach society and politics?

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10:49 pm    January 14, 2004
Pancho, r'u alright! Eaaaaaasy dude!

1:18 pm    January 8, 2004
dima dima el meghreb
lo unico que puedo decir que igual en la era de H2 rahimahou lah hemos vevido en paz y con mucha armonia sin olbidar la seguridad que habia en el pais el mejor del mundo DIMA DIMA MEGHREB tabien a?adiando que ahora estamos en una era de M6 nassarahou lah vivimos de maravilla por supuesto echando mucho de menos al blad le3ziza mais las cosas van mejorando
quizas sera inchaa lah MOROCCO 2010 suena muy bien es un peque?o ejemplo de que las cosas estan muy muy muy bien en marruecos

8:53 am    January 4, 2004
H2, M6, H3,M7.......ET UN PTIT R4 (MEME SI ON N EN FAIT PLUS!!) R POUR rachid.
ou alors, vous avez le choix entre guerre civile, extremisme islamiste ou berbere, chefs d\'armee au pouvoir ( c le cas maintenant mais c subtile).. on parle d\'education, ceux qu il fo eduquer c les gens supposes etre les plus eduque du pays, ministres, juges, parlementaire... c eux qui se font graisse la pate, le peuple si il \"bribe\"c parcequ il n a recours qu a cela. c le droit au plus offrant. un ministre qui touche 5 briques par mois, en 2 ans il se construit un palais a la route zaer a rabat. ??? comment a-t-il fait? son gosse fait ces etudes a LA ou Lausanne.!!! les marocains aiment le fric meme si il est sale.


1:30 am    January 4, 2004

Adnane Ben. message
Thanks for giving your point of view. Raioo exists to collectively improve how we discuss ideas, gauge our knowledge, and make friends along the way. Every discussion topic is an opportunity to shine. Topics come and go, but it is you who make them memorable. Everyone is responsible for the content/advise they post. You decide the course of discussions most of the time. I join you in the discussions, yet I deserve the right to tidy up unrelated and rogue posts if necessary, time permitting. You can always view unrelated posts by clicking on the above link 'show them anyway..'

Over and over again, I don't cease to remind you to check your balance. The questions one should regularly ask before contributing in Raioo arise: did you read the topic? did you read most posts? are you debating within the realms of the topic and controlling your emotions while making sense? Do you think well before you write? Do you proofread your posts before submitting? Are you being stupid? Are you being obnoxious? Are you arguing for the sake of arguing? Do you admit when you are corrected by someone else? Are you always defensive? Are you amusing and funny sometimes (a good thing)? Are you improving this web site collectively? Are you a person who can make a difference, or are you a useless overhead filled with indifference?

I count on all of the people who have shown respect for Raioosters and Raioo discussions, to continue their great contributions and continue being an example to follow, as we recycle our ideas and opinions real-time in Raioo.

And by the way, it has been a while since someone last proposed a new topic. That usually leaves me coming up with my own, which may not necessarily appeal to you. So, if you have a worthy topic in mind Raioo wants to hear your stories.



8:52 pm    January 3, 2004
Mr Adnane,
It doesnt look like we (moroccans) are ready for such a discussion..instead of focusing on the subject people here are spending time on something none of us is sure about..things like i have a picture or i saw or i heard..this is all bs. if you have something show it...but anyway people do that because they don't know what to say about the sudbject and all they want is to distruct..
so please change this subject untill we learn how to discuss..
I am not talking about everybody of course...
Another favor i want to ask you Mr Adnane try not to have discussions about Islam the religion we should all be proud of instead of making our own islam 1.0 and 2.0 and all that crab..I think you will be asked for all that one day so try not to allow any addition to our religion..again this is all because of I think is the main reason which is the fact that we don't know much about a lot of stuff that we talk about..
please note that i am not generalizing and sorry if I am out of the subject but i needed to express my point of view ..

8:25 pm    January 3, 2004
He does not have a girlf friend because his actual wife was his girl friend . sorry that you were not a sharp bergag before he got married .
Do you judge a leader from his political agenda, or from how he uses his penis ?
Your brains must be localed somewhere else than in your head...

4:39 pm    January 3, 2004
Michael Jackson too has a son.Being married dosen't prouve he's not gay.If he (M6)was 100% straight,how come he never has a girl friend like his borther Rachid?
All theses are legitimate questions,especially when one is "amir almou minin"

1:39 pm    January 3, 2004

Adnane Ben. message
Folks Hi and happy new year,

I appreciate all of your replies to the poster (message 60) who touched on M6. His/her post was out of subject as you notice and should be invalidated. If it is, all replies to it, even if in good intention, will have to be invalidated as well. The best thing to do next time is to ignore people who go out of subject. They should know better to look around in Raioo for a topic that best fits their message. There are topics about King Mohammed 6 in the channel Politics. If they cannot find a proper topic for their ideas, they may propose a new channel or new topic.


9:18 am    January 3, 2004
M6 is married and has a son, and for the first time in the Moroccan history, a Moroccan king is marryied to a woman from a humble back ground . (ask anybody who is from Fes) .
He released all the political prisoners from jail, and allowed the political refugees to come back home, if they want to.
He defended some 10 basic laws that Mudawana is built upon, wich is promoting the Moroccan women's right, and pushing the moroccan society forward towards transparency. (wether u like it or not !)
He is facing the chalenge of a corruption that has eaten up the country for the past 35 years, In an agricultural country with serious debts, he is facing the chalenge of a 60% of the nation that is illeterate , a high % of young poeple who need either jobs or schooling( or both) , an infra-structure that needs alot of cash, in a devided society , where some want to go back to the 7 century, while other want to keep the "status Quo" as not to loose their benefits,
while other just "live", and other dont care.
He allowed the freedom of press to a level Morocco has never seen before, and neither did any Arab state.
Cops dont beat up poeple in the street and get away with it anymore,, poeple are in title to sue an official .
When poeple take everything for granted, the become silly to a nasty level .
Just, remember the days of H2... when you wouldnt whisper his name without looking right, let, above and bellow...
you have the memory of a fly !


2:53 am    January 3, 2004
wak wak
Hey y a des limites ? ne pas depasser !! ce que tu viens de dire sur M6 est vraiment de tres tres bas niveau et surtout n'oublis pas tu pourras te faire juger pour ca, faut bien lire la loi marocaine !!!! et le pire jugement et sur ce que tu viens dire !

8:01 pm    January 2, 2004
Like any celebrity in the world the Media try to depict people the way Paparazzi's want with an only motive is to catch a large audience and captivate more attention (see the tabloid in UK or other cheap newspapers in US). I think M6 is a victim or scapegoat like others of a lot of allegations prevailing about his personal life which is possibly not true. Please have some common sense, and have some respect before uttering something---Don't judge the book by it's cover.The Media can raise people further high or bring them down and in Morocco we have another tabloid of diffrent sort called:"word of mouth" which is basically the art of manifacturing inflated or falsified info which can spread like a wildfire!! In our culture inflating numbers and dramatizing things seems part of the daily conversation! Let's not be judgemental without considering any proofs!! and I am sorry that this point you brought up is irrelevant and pointless in relation to the topic we were discussing.

5:12 pm    January 2, 2004
M6 c koi ca,jai des photos de lui NU hahah.. oui nu comme je voous dis,naari la honte pour nous!!c d'origine spn jcrois!!!

12:43 pm    January 2, 2004 This is an unrelated or foul message..
bonne annee a tout le monde.

11:02 pm    December 31, 2003 This is an unrelated or foul message..
mecha 3am ou ja 3am we 7ena 7alna dayem

3:42 pm    December 31, 2003 This is an unrelated or foul message..
2004 bda hna

3:41 pm    December 31, 2003 This is an unrelated or foul message..
Yo Happy New Year!

10:00 am    December 30, 2003
interesting article ...


7:48 pm    December 29, 2003
The need for change seems to be crucial in order to be in the same path as other developed countries. A cohesive link between education, society, and religion must be a customary standard for approaching democratization issues. This cohesion or blend, as much as it is beneficial for society - in having a collective conciousness -also serves the "individual well being."

It would be paradoxal if we consider the opposite equation of having one-dimensional standards that focus solely on one resource rather than all. Consquently, the main focus would ultimately serve only a certain strata of society rather than the entire society. Society should look like a jigsaw-puzzle where all the pieces fit harmonously to give one big picture. Learning about our civic rights denotes a further step of knowing where we are. In this respect, knowledge must be aquired rather than granted. We can't wait another 50 years for the government to maintain its channels and wrap it up to make civic rights crystal clear to everyone. THE NEED DRIVES FOR AQUISITION.

The points that RastaGarcia made were meaningful and the cocktail of his formula would make everybody happy.


7:47 pm    December 29, 2003
The need for change seems to be crucial in order to be in the same path as other developed countries. A cohesive link between education, society, and religion must be a customary standard for approaching democratization issues. This cohesion or blend, as much as it is beneficial for society - in having a collective conciousness -also serves the "individual well being."

It would be paradoxal if we consider the opposite equation of having one-dimensional standards that focus solely on one resource rather than all. Consquently, the main focus would ultimately serve only a certain strata of society rather than the entire society. Society should look like a jigsaw-puzzle where all the pieces fit harmonously to give one big picture. Learning about our civic rights denotes a further step of knowing where we are. In this respect, knowledge must be aquired rather than granted. We can't wait another 50 years for the government to maintain its channels and wrap it up to make civic rights crystal clear to everyone. THE NEED DRIVES FOR AQUISITION.

The points that RastaGarcia made were meaningful and the cocktail of his formula would make everybody happy.


9:27 am    December 29, 2003

Rasta Gnawi message
It seems that many of the posts accept this equation:
Education + Demcracy = Better Life
I accept this equation as well. The only frustrating part about it is its impracticality for the present. Do we wait another 20-50 years until our litteracy rate goes higher for democracy to work or is there a different formula that is likely to work better given our current constraints.

I believe that democracy without awareness of our civic rights and obligations will not achieve much because it will serve only those capable of acquiring large quantities of votes (numbers do count in democracies.) How do we bring that awareness to the minds of the majority? School plays a big part, but it would be foolish to assume that everyone that has higher education is capable of making rational decisions. There are many wise people who were not fortunate enough to complete their education. Media plays a big part as well, but media only serves its masters. Our early religious upbringing also plays a big part in giving us the foundations for living in a peaceful society.

A balance must be found between these key tools of education in order to create a society that's aware of its existance and its place in its own history.


2:34 pm    December 28, 2003
Who would really vote for a westernaized educated candidate and who is not bribing? There's an issue of trust when it comes to voting coz the average person would opt for getting something out of this candidates rather than listen to heir goals(sarcastically-a yada understood by average society)--a bird in hand better than 2 on the porch--it's indoctrinated to the moroccan mentality and it's way difficult to eradicate that in a glimpse of the eye!! I would suggest though to educate people better, media would go the extra mile in that perspective to help moroccan understand politics which unfortunately not happening for decades. Then comes the young generation who are better educated and must be the influential role- players at home first-- make an illeterate dad or mom understand, defy those commandments or better understand it (that they are going nowhere with the old mentality but just for the worst). Having a vision is ideal, to put it forward needs: (let's get real) a strong backup (society/government), collective work(everyone is reponsible), honest implementation(being practical and meeting deadlines)--the list is too long but the backbone is education-education and education in different levels.. I think if we stick to these basics we would go forward...

2:32 pm    December 28, 2003
ll the commandments mentioned in the topic actually are derived from our own culture/religious conception and education too, those commandments go hand by hand with the political stream since the Independance so it's an amalgam of rooted behaviors whether religious/ political or cultural---- it's in a way or another tending to keep us in the status quo and hinder the "move forward" It's an overlapped subject honestly--So Mr Iceman don't diminish the importance of what Lui/Adnane brought up for discussion.
Mr.Adil's suggestion was to the point in a sense for the benefit of our country to envision a party that would alleviate the political perspectives to the forth.But it's very difficult though mapping the whole idea into a real political power vis-a-vis the political "sharks" in our country and how to make this happen and accepted by the average Moroccan. It would be a hell of a job to make people understand our motive beyond their mere knowledge base. (to be continued)

12:58 pm    December 28, 2003
other kingdoms have been able to achieve democracy, while keeping their kings.. ex UK, Belgium, Spain., japan.....
why can't we do the same ?

9:38 am    December 28, 2003
The amajor problem that we have in Morocco that prevents us from having a real democracy is that since the independace we have been governed by the same people politicly & economicly speaking. This MUST change first otherwise there is no need to talk about democracy or HOPE.
A government that denies to its population living abroad the right to vote, and at the same time welcomes their money to help build the country. Weird isn't it?
It's Morocco.

6:37 am    December 28, 2003
As long as we have M6 AMIR AL MONAFIQIN
no need for any ideas his way or no way all what I can say is I never voted for him nor my
father , grandfather or any of whom I know we all arabs are just slaves like it or not that's the reality can't you see all arabs countrys have only masters but with different names : King , Sultan, Amir or Pressssident
F&*$%#@ them all.
and peace up on people

11:05 pm    December 27, 2003 This is an unrelated or foul message..
ya des gens de agadir ici??!!

8:50 pm    December 27, 2003
I think we should lease our country to the US for about 10 years to fix our democratic institutes




1:29 pm    December 27, 2003
I think there are two ways of solving a problem this big, one is to create a new political party that has a genuine will to help morocco, this party should be comprised of well educated and motivated people that would strive to make Moroccan politics more transparent in order to cut down on theft and bribery, such a political party has been formed lately in 2001 I think (don\'t remember the name either but when I find out I?ll let you know), it happened when groups of doctors, lawyers, engineers, business men, politicians that want to make a difference and other qualified people, men and women (most of them studied abroad in the 60\'s and 70\'s and had the same concern about morocco as we do, and that returned to morocco to contribute to its well being) got together and decided on a solution that would make their return worth while. I don\'t know though how they would attract votes from the lower working class that see themselves as so different from them. I need to get more information about this party and see if I believe they really are trying to help morocco. The second solution is to remedy the consequences of political issues by economical means, like getting American companies to invest in morocco by building plants and hiring Moroccan people, or start our own companies that manufactures simple products needed by our society but that we still import, the point is to reduce Moroccan debt and get an export to import ratio higher than one at least. While doing this we must focus on education any work force that we might acquire and promoting corporate philosophy that would be reflected in their every day\'s lives. I welcome any criticism.

10:40 am    December 27, 2003
Stagnation is evident on this discussion board, very booooring indeed.Why,because Adnane and Lui are trying to impose their politically correct ideology.
Even the tile of this topic is based on wrong premise,the title should be "Religious Dogma".Because moroccans are being brainwashed by idiot imams since an early age.and they learn about politics only later on.So slick Adnane is trying to avoid controversy by substituing "religious" for "political ".There's no such a thing as political dogma,we can talk about polical endoctrination,or brainwashing if you will.But the word "dogma" is primarly associated with religion.

8:03 pm    December 26, 2003
"The idea of stagnation that I mentioned meant that in essence things in Morocco are THE SAME. Mahdi Elmandjra gave some statistics regarding rich disparities from 1 to 30 in 1956 to 1 to 60 now. "

-No, Abidou, there is no such thing as stagnation, the figures you just mentioned above do prove it...

A country (or individual) is like a corporation, when it does not move forward, it is moving backwards...


3:06 pm    December 26, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
i didn`t say he was Illeterate !!!!

2:13 pm    December 26, 2003
Nego , for your information Abdelkarim el-Khatabi wasn't illiterate,he was educated in Spain at university level ,then he worked as an editor for a Spanish language newspaper in Morocco during the occupation.And when he started the resistance mouvement in the mountain, then he started to dress like an illeterate peasant in order to avoid capture by Spanish troops

2:12 pm    December 26, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
Negotiator has a point, but Bahja has another point also. It is definitely inspiring to know there are well natured people who didn't have a chance to get a formal education, run the affairs of a "small" community. I assume these people are rare. They are an asset the political system should recognize and utilize, definitely.

However, when you move on to higher platforms in the political system where you are expected to come up with visions, make plans and execute them, have the know-how of today's internal politics and world politics. This know-how is nurtured by a formal education, but most importantly a well-natured personality should be a pre-requisite. That's how I see things, but I may be wrong.


12:05 pm    December 26, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
You didn`t get the Point...
If you were an Arab then i could explain to you since you are not... sorry..., unless that ( get real arabs :) ) was meant to say something else...

11:12 am    December 26, 2003
God said to study and to seek science everywhere. 7ikmah comes with higher education, knowledge and experienece failure and success with time. 7ikmah does not mean just stay home and give fatwa because you are 7akim. I hope that you meant something else with 7ikmah. 7ikma does not make high tech, make you walk on the moon, am i right? Get real arabs:)

10:24 am    December 26, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
what`s the difference between that who is well educated and that who can just read and write?
you might say a lot of differences, but still there is one thing that not every body has witch we call (7ikmah) There are people who can change a lot of things without been educated cause God gave them that 7ikmah, and they can convince people just with that given strenght...

don`t get me wrong here, i said some illeterate people are better than some educated people...

Did abdelkrim alkhatabi go to the best Universities at his Time? he didn`t, and a lot of people at his Time did go to the best Universities in Morocco, what did they do? Nada, or at least not as much as he did....
so why did he do what he did and those who were educated didn`t do like him?
Motivation, Dedications, Goals......
If somebody is dediccated to something, he doesn`t have to have the best education ever...

If someone Fears God and wants to serve the People and don`t opress them and wants to serve his country Etc...., i think we should give him a chance even if he is not well educated , instead of giving the responsibility to someone who is well educated but doesn`t care about People, he only cares about collecting money, and marking his Name Big in the society !!!!!!!

How many people we see in the parliament that are well educated and wants to serve their people with no interest in them selves???


9:56 am    December 26, 2003

abdelilah message
The idea of stagnation that I mentioned meant that in essence things in Morocco are THE SAME. Mahdi Elmandjra gave some statistics regarding rich disparities from 1 to 30 in 1956 to 1 to 60 now. The idea of lobbying needs businessmen and politicians. We have an intelligentsia that can work in this sense but I am definitely not talking about the wanna be rich who come here and still live around Moroccan gossip with Moroccan mentality.

9:35 am    December 26, 2003
I thought the same thing but someone here said no , it is ok to be illeterate and represent people in parliament! Anyway, the facts that Baghi-tissa3 mentioned about lobbying are all correct and make sense. We need strong people with strong influence, and we need to be strong here first and then move on. The only way is higher education and business with the motivation to improve things in Morocco (radical change in Morocco). Everything need to be changed in Morocco. I do still have a question, why Karim 3amrane owns more than 30% of Phosphate products? is not a collective good? wonder when people in Morocco will know all what is going on in their own country, and wonder when they will revolt!

5:40 am    December 26, 2003
Nothing is stagnant, the whole world and Everything in it are continiousely changing.
You either follow up the changes or you are left behind ...


5:27 am    December 26, 2003
"There are a lot of illeterate people who would do a better Job than a lot in the parliament...."

-That's none sense . You always focuse on rare particular cases...
l'exception ne fait pas la loi !
If we would allow illeterate poeple to become a parlementarians, then we might as well turn Lehla9ia dial jamaa Lefnaa into university professors.


1:44 am    December 26, 2003
Powerful countries (US, France & UK etc.) usually do put pressure on impoverished countries to implement democratization and engage in developing economy and education consequently (as a reward ) those countries provide financial aids, grants and logistical support. Our country is one of the recepient of a lot of grants and assistanships for years but -in a controversial way-developemtal process is going slow (turtle steps) with a superficial change that occurs but carries with it the same drawbacks mentioned as "the seven commandments"-see the main topic-and which results usually to a slight change and nothing that we consider as a serious move towards impressive results---the saying would apply in this regards "Don't hit the game hit the player".
Lobbying would be an excellent idea to push for a move but i see it as far-fetched because moroccan immigrants are a young new generation in the process of growing, there is only a small limited number of Intellegentia or businessmen who are in different states and a few are concerned with the status quo of Morocco and contributing "to the push forward". Lobbying requires connecting and integrating with governmental & non-goevernmental orgs. to give them a scope about our country and how we can help develop it. I think Adnane defined the Lobbying in this respect---but do we really fit to the criteria of having a lobby here? Do we have intellegentia that have the same motive?..any feedback?

7:40 pm    December 25, 2003 This is an unrelated or foul message..
anonymous 2
hfa afhaf a ha kjlkj aoi aojj a a s a a ok

4:30 pm    December 25, 2003 This is an unrelated or foul message..
anonymous 8
allo wa7ed tenine
test 1 2 3 ???
plz disgard this message
it is a test

3:09 pm    December 24, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
Bahja, I'm not sure you can "by means of the Consitution of Morocco" have someone represent an American Moroccan lobby in the Moroccan parliament. Such a lobby would be an expression of free speech in America. It should work very very hard to pass legislations to the congress that are deemed to serve the US-Moroccan relationship. What you might hope to have is a counterpart group in Morocco that lobbies the Moroccan parliament to "listen" or "be aware" of what the US counterpart is trying to accomplish. This could give Morocco heads-up on how it can utilize better its relationship with the US, Moroccans who live in the US for that matter, in order to feedback into Moroccans to live in Morocco and improve their lives. I would imagine improving the lives of Moroccans in Morocco would be an ongoing project for such a lobby.

Talking about a lobby is interesting. I think every Moroccan in the US, including myself, should know some basics about lobby. What a lobby is, what its members do, and what are the guidelines, consequences (good or bad), and what is the heated debate about lobbying. For starters, let me share some links with those of us who are educating themselves about lobbying.

- The Ethics of Lobbying: a debate in Georgetown University
- Lobbying Hints and Guidelines
- and the most successful lobby in the US (to learn from) American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC)


1:07 pm    December 24, 2003
I really like this idea, I think it may work especially if we manage craeting a strong lobby here (education and business). Are we going to have a board of represnetative? elections? someone to represnt us in the Moroccan parlment?

3:16 am    December 24, 2003 This is an unrelated or foul message..
anonymous 8
adnane u think u too smart , trust me man u are an arrogant dude

12:43 am    December 24, 2003 This is an unrelated or foul message..
what`s the hell is that.fraatona ras balhadra,,talo aala lmaghrib ,,wlah bnadam wala yahcham ghaa yghol maghribi,,just with those bullshit bad feedbacks.and by the way, had ADNAN ,one message is enough to tban.aarafnak faya9 w3aya9,,waziyar ,,awah finma nadkhalhad site nalgha had ADNAN dayar 100000messages,,awah waliti stylo hmar,ali hdar tshahlih,,bnadam dla3bar

3:31 pm    December 23, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
You say you "believe in stagnation". I think you probably meant you believe Moroccans are in a state of stagnation. Just trying to make sense of what you wrote.

Also, may you suggest a few, or at least one, real change since you have expressed a "need" for it. If one expresses a need, one has thought of what is needed. Knowing how to accomplish the need is a special bonus. Also may you elaborate on what you meant by "aesthetical" changes.

The idea of creating a lobby in the US and abroad is good. Mind you that a lobby requires a strong infrastructure of rich members. It also entails that these members are highly united, organized, focused, and daring. Moroccans can get there, why not, but it will take many decades. I support the idea nonwithstanding.


1:10 pm    December 23, 2003

abdelilah message
I think that this question has lived with us all our lives, and we are still carrying parts of it. I do not believe that things in Morocco are as they were before, but I do not think either that they are changing. I believe in stagnation.
As far, as how to operate, I think that constituting a Moroccan lobby in the States and abroad will push people back home to listen. We need real changes in Morocco not aesthetical changes. Mahdi Elmandjra still suffers censorship big time.

12:39 pm    December 23, 2003
I did not criticize Youssoufi or approved what he did, i only mentioned his name. I said the overall Moroccan system is more complicated than it appears, so do not trust the miror!

12:32 pm    December 23, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
I said (did a LOT) i didn`t say he didn`t do any thing....
Plus i just gave you an Interview to read, i think IT IS GOOD to know such things, I didn`t give you a scary story, if it looked scary to you , then it is your opinion......, I don`t see why my suggestions would be better than this Story....
Garcia ,
I don`t see why you are telling me to give you my suggestions instead of this(scary) story.....You see why some people here think that you can`t write things that doesn`t go with your opinions???
I found the Article a nice one to read, what`s the problem on sharing it with Others? if you don`t like it , then don`t blame me...
if you don`t want me to bring that .....


12:11 pm    December 23, 2003
I know the person as friend and I know his F/M as she/He was the judge.
Do some research my friend before replying.
Can you tell us where what was M6 doing when he brook his shoulder?
Weak up !!

12:08 pm    December 23, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
To add to what Rasta said, I believe that Mr. Youssefi did what he can. In fact he showed Moroccans that they can do it themselves too. He may not have instituted a great government over night, but surely he kept the candle lit, kept the motivation there, and as he passes the torch he hopes to find us there to grab it and continue what he started. I hear people say that nothing changed in Morocco and Mr. Youssefi or King Mohammed 6 did nothing about unemployment. How can we blame them when these past 3 years have been devastating for world economy in general, let alone Morocco.

11:49 am    December 23, 2003

Rasta Gnawi message
It seems to me that Bziz has a personal ax to grind with Youssefi. I don't know the details of their quarrel and couldn't really get it from the article. In fact, I don't really care. So I would not qualify the interview as a "good" one. The personal bias also chips away from the Truth that the article tries to deliver.

The road is not paved with roses, and it should not be a reason to throw your hands up in the air and give up. Each have to find their own way of helping. Give us suggestions not scare stories.


11:09 am    December 23, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
I don`t think Degrees has any thing to do with one be Honest and work hard for his country...
There are a lot of illeterate people who would do a better Job than a lot in the parliament......
Sure educated people are more likely to be better than non educated, But still there is a big chance that those educated People didn`t understand any thing from what they have studied, cause they were studying to get a Degree and work with it not to get an Education.....

Here is a Good Interview with BZIZ ( ex comedian) about Youssefi to know some of the Truth about youssefi , for those who thinks he did a lot for Morocco ...
Go to Page 7 , Enjoy...


10:21 am    December 23, 2003
You gave good thoughts, but the problem is much complicated and it is not easy to meet goverment people. To join a political party, you need to be corrupted, very corrupted. I was involved for a short time in a political party, and I can tell you how it worked from my experience. If you want to ascend the scale and become big name you have to lick asses, and you have to manipulate people in meetings, and lie to poeple to become a leader. they ahve their agendas and you have to say yes, and never no. I think it is very hard to change that system that is very corrupted. Youssoufi himself could not change it, he obeyed to it, and so does everyone. You say our economy was good, when was that?
Al kadiya f attagiya alli gal assi omar

8:47 am    December 23, 2003

Rasta Gnawi message

So people who live outside and want to help need to focus their attention on building stronger candidates for political parties either through contributions or simply through keeping in touch with different parties and their members in order to have a view of the political landscape. One cannot build what doesn't know.

Our social system is impecable when our economy is at its best. The problem is that our economy hasn't been at its best for many decades. The new Moudawana gives expanded privileges to women which should help the social dynamics. It will create a other temporary problems for women who get a divorce without having access to the job market. But this might be an area where help can be given from abroad; perhaps in the shape of setting organizations that help divorced women finance their children's education, healthcare etc, or making donations to such organizations.

There is plenty to do both within and outside. I would recommend you roll up your sleeves, go home for a good month or so to see people in govermnent and various organizations, and then tawakkal 3ala llah. It's much better to do than to speak.

Jah bless


8:46 am    December 23, 2003

Rasta Gnawi message
The proposed subject is a nice one. Let's help develop it and learn something from it. Beating down on Lmoudir doesn't do much. I suggest Lmoudir adds a little section for comments and criticism where you could lodge all your claims.

My answer to the last question in the text of the subject above is:

in my opinion, the best way to make Morocco a livable place for both people that have experienced life outside Morocco and for those that have stayed there is to make good use of the democratic process and take over the government. By pushing intellectuals and good natured people into the parliament we can insure that the top of the hierarchy is aware of civic duties that need to be implemented in the streets.

The obstacle to this is that some people have built long rotten careers in political parties that have good philosophies. The feeling of entitlement has become enormous within party lines and your old corporate political practices have taken hold of the parties. Elections are no longer presenting candidate lists that are viable (just look at the list of Littihad lichtiraki during these past elections; it was disgraceful.)


7:52 am    December 23, 2003
I want to join my voice to those who said that Adnane sometimes dictates his attitudes. I, personally witnessed that. But I know he has good intentions sometimes. May be he can improve himself a little bit with time. But a general advise, tolerance is tye solution. Morocco's regime is worst tthan Saddam's. At least saddam has eradicated illetracy from his country since 1972 (when he was Vice president). In Morocco what happend at that time? How come in the 21st century, in a country like Morocco, someone with a 6 years degree is unemployed, and an illetarte person is represnetative in the parlment?? Howcome only those who have connections find a job and average person with PhD, Masters starve to death, or beaten day and night by Marda in front of the parlement in rabat? Country of injustice. Now is the King aware of all these? He should, especially if he calls him self amir al mouminin.

7:43 am    December 23, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
Freedom, Independance, Speech...etc.....

What are they?? do we know them?
Did you ever had to fight for your Freedom? if not and i`m sure you never did, how would you say that you don`t have freedom to debate whatever you want here in this website? I can see every body saying whatever they wish, To be able to Criticize (almoudir) without been banned from this Site is a picture of Freedom..., you might find the Subjects not as Good as you want them , but why blame Adnane for that? why can`t we blame our selves for not bringing up Subjects that we want to see, you can see clearly on your left hand side THE BIG YELLOW BUTTON to propose a New Topic, so if we fail to bring new topics, then we are respinsible as well, Adnane isn`t the only one who has to choose a Topic, if he doesn`t find Good Topics , he will put one that not all of us like.

A vos stylos....


6:31 am    December 23, 2003

Rasta Gnawi message

Do not consider yourself a prisoner here. There are many other sites and boards to go to. You must exercise your freedom of choice and go somewhere that fits your maturity needs.

There is neither passport nor visa required to get out of this board.



6:28 am    December 23, 2003

Rasta Gnawi message
It seems that it is always the son of some official or judge that tells the story... Somehow that person and his sources are more credible...

Get real buddy.


5:45 am    December 23, 2003
Just to let you know.
In the early 80?s, it was a big drug bust in casa, and they end up stopping the investigation and dropping the issue when it lead them to a big fish in the gov
And guess who it was: M6 .
at the time he was still a Prince.
This is no Joke The son of one of the Supreme Court judges told the story in details.


4:51 am    December 23, 2003
I'm not only sick of Adnane's dictat attitude, which he's learnt from back home, but also disgusted with these so many ass lickers who jump in anytime to praise him: well done Adnane, good job adnane, may Allah bless you Adnane,etc.
Adnane has shown in many ways that he needs maturity to run a community site. He's been very insulting to fellow Moroccans thru this site, check previous debates to see for yourself.
What's going on here is exactly what happens in Morocco betweenn the dictator and his prisoners (lashes and asslicking).
Many debates have bees side-tracked because of someone unecessarily defending adnane, and most likely, adnane enjoys that.
It is unfortunate that many people never benefit from being in a foreign land.
Asslicking is a typical habit in Morocco, please live and die with dignity.

4:20 am    December 23, 2003
I think that this is the time for changes, first change the old mentaltity, facing the fear of LMAKHZIN oops what i am saying here!!! in our country we still have the MKADDAM administration and no doubt that this will be changed within 100 of years but for time being just shut up and say "LAAM ZIN".

Some people in Lblad are happy about this situation and wannit to still like this, sure who carres about the poor population we are just "khouchouch" in the eyes of Mr Simo6.

Achaaa al Malik & Lmardaa htahiaaa


1:56 am    December 23, 2003
instead of criticising Adnane, try at least to do something to make a difference. Thanks to his great efforts we're having this little community,yes our community, that allows us to gather all together,share our opinions,thoughts ,dreams and even "coup de blues" but without hurting anyone's feelings. It's all about respect. And to all raioosters I have a little request: let's make simply by respecting the rules of debates. "Do unto others as u want them unto you". Adnane,I'm really proud of U and I respect your efforts sooo much.
May ALLAH shower You with his blessings.
Salam .

11:21 pm    December 22, 2003
Dear Adnane
Time to learn from your mistake, you just can't win your war on freedom of speech.Just like Bush can't win his war on terrorism.
To be honest with you,I don't trust you when it come to choosing appropriate topics for discussion. You have shown poor judgment when it come to most pressing issues that concern our self-exiled moroccans community .I know your intentions are good in creating this site ,but maybe you come under pressure from the evil forces of moroccan consulatei.If you really want this site to be the true voice of moroccans in North America ,you've got to be independent otherwise you loose credibilily.
I don't mind paying few bucks or volontering few hours a week for a site that ready address our concern as a refugees fleeing the oppressive regime of M6.We're all college graduates,but still we have emigrate,in my parents generation only illeterate peasants has to emigrate.Seriousely something is wrong and we just can't pretend it dosen't exist.


9:45 pm    December 22, 2003
What are you smoking man?? did you know morocco get aid (big money0 from the EU in oder to crack down on the culture of canabis.So the moroccan gov is obligated to keep hashich production to a minimum. Otherwise Nato will have to invade Morocco in order to enforce Int' l law

9:15 pm    December 22, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
escobar, I'm not sure what you actually mean. But I'm interested to know what kind of a deal the government is going to negotiate with the drug dealers? What incentives would the government give to the drug dealers in order to get anything out of them? But, first off, by negotiating a deal, wouldn't the government be overriding the authority of the justice system? wouldn't such negotiations give the impression to Moroccans that drug dealers are ok, and in fact, are our saviours?

Somehow, this approach smells fishy to me. But I may be wrong, corresct me if you please.


8:50 pm    December 22, 2003 This is an unrelated or foul message..
the only thing we can do for our economy to keep rolling on the right track, is to give a break to all the drug dealers in the north i mean the ceo of drug trafficking in morocco the real barons who inject real money into the economy by investing their wealth i don t think by selling tomatoes we can be very optimistic lol .

7:49 pm    December 22, 2003
So what do you expect when we have illeterate politicians. I heard there's a butcher (jezar) got elected to the moroccan parlement. I mean no disrespect to butchers it's an honorable profession, but still in order to be a politician,you need at least a college degree.No joke

Adnane Ben.'s notes (341)
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