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SPIRITUAL
Adnane Ben.
Boston USA
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86
comments.
Moroccan Christians
07:22:24 PM Saturday Nov 19, 2005


I was asked yesterday whether there are christians in Morocco, Moroccan christians that is. I immediately answered, in confidence, that there are no such people as Moroccan christians. Well, a quick scrub in google started to prove me wrong. There apparently are Moroccan christians, apparently mostly in Malaga Spain. Take a look at this website which broadcasts live programmes targetted to North Africa, especially Morocco, to spread christianity.

Now, I know there are versions of the Bible in Arabic; but I never imagined someone would actually start providing a translation in the Moroccan dialect! check out this part of the Bible called Luke in Moroccan darija - more precisely in casawiya :)


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2:34 pm    June 30, 2014

Ms Aliyah Sam message
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Thank you sister, Trish!

Amen! I was suppose to be away in London all weekend for training in evangelism but I fell ill, no doubt enemy attack in the spiritual realm! I do share the gospel, from a place of love. But I'm trying to deal with unnecessary aggression from others and trying not to retaliate, which is what many want. Some people are vile in the context of what they say which is a reflection of the fruits of their own spirits. I'm working on it! haha.

Urgh I'm, trying to reply directly to you and I don't think its working for me. Trish do you have Moroccan or North African ancestry? God bless you! x


10:26 am    June 30, 2014

Trish message
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Dear Samia,

God Bless you. So happy to hear you know the Lord Jesus Christ. Welcome to the family of God and Eternal life! Stay strong in the faith and be equipped to share the gospel where every God sends you.

Blessings from a sister in Christ


9:42 am    June 30, 2014

Ms Aliyah Sam message
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Ahlan family! I am Moroccan female (on father's side) and I am have been Masihi (Christian) for some time now. I was raised as a practising Sunni Muslim (my parents still are and deeply into their faith). Nobody evangelised me or influenced me. In my journey I found myself drawn to Allah through Yeshua. I have met A LOT of Moroccans that are Christian, I kid you not! I did not even expect that, I thought I was the only one. I was well over the moon with excitement, because I know I'm not the only one (not that it would matter if I was the only one). They're not all Amazigh but they are also Arab Moroccans, they're full Moroccan, IN Morocco. Many are also outside Morocco too.

Ey up, I wonder if I'd get hostile response now and those trying to revert me back or communicate with me as if I was naive (my faith is too strong) as I had experienced previously. Hopefully there are friendly, smart, wise, open minded people on this website.

God Bless you all! :)


9:41 am    June 30, 2014

Ms Aliyah Sam message
83
Ahlan family! I am Moroccan female (on father's side) and I am have been Masihi (Christian) for some time now. I was raised as a practising Sunni Muslim (my parents still are and deeply into their faith). Nobody evangelised me or influenced me. In my journey I found myself drawn to Allah through Yeshua. I have met A LOT of Moroccans that are Christian, I kid you not! I did not even expect that, I thought I was the only one. I was well over the moon with excitement, because I know I'm not the only one (not that it would matter if I was the only one). They're not all Amazigh but they are also Arab Moroccans, they're full Moroccan, IN Morocco. Many are also outside Morocco too.

Ey up, I wonder if I'd get hostile response now and those trying to revert me back or communicate with me as if I was naive (my faith is too strong) as I had experienced previously. Hopefully there are friendly, smart, wise, open minded people on this website.

God Bless you all! :)


9:35 am    February 11, 2010

Trish message
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Hi Adnane,
When Jesus said "you must be born again" He is referring to birth into the Kingdom of Heaven. The earthly kingdom you and I were born into in the flesh (physical body - old nature), but the heavenly kingdom is spiritual (new nature). We cannot be born in Heaven (God's dwelling place) and be new creations without our sinful natures being removed. When you confess Christ (Isa) as your Lord and understand that He paid the penalty for your sin then you are now "born again"(old nature goes). It is that simple yet many deny this and Jesus also says this in the Bible - ""Enter through the narrow gate. for wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it." Matthew 7;13. Adnane, please read John 1:1 for starters. May The Lord Bless you. Please ask more questions. Blessings.

9:24 pm    February 10, 2010

Adnane Ben. message
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What does it mean to be born again? is this referring to resurrection of the dead at the time of judgement when one goes to either hell or heaven? or does it mean something else?

10:17 am    February 5, 2010

Trish message
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Sam, Please read the Injil - and then comment. Thank you.

10:11 am    February 5, 2010

Trish message
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Sam, Please read the Injil - and then comment. Thank you.

10:09 am    February 5, 2010

Trish message
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" " " ٣-٧

Jesus said you must be born again to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, John 3:7


10:02 am    February 5, 2010

Trish message
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66
" " " ٣-٧

Jesus said you must be born again to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, John 3:7


9:22 am    February 5, 2010

Trish message
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Apparently you have not read the Injil. Read the book of John, especially John 1:1, "In the Beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God and John 1:14 "and the Word became flesh and dwelt (lived) among us. Mohamed tells in the Koran people to go to the "people of the book" if they want to find information out on the Holy Scriptures. Go to the Injil and read and discover what you need to know. Jesus (Isa) could have had a earthly father, but God chose to be His father because Jesus was and is sinless. Sin is inherited through the Father....... Read and get back to me if you like. We can have further discussion into the deep truth and mystrey of the Lord God Creator of Heaven and Earth. Amen

9:16 am    February 5, 2010

Trish message
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Apparently you have not read the Injil. Read the book of John, especially John 1:1, "In the Beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God and John 1:14 "and the Word became flesh and dwelt (lived) among us. Mohamed tells in the Koran people to go to the "people of the book" if they want to find information out on the Holy Scriptures. Go to the Injil and read and discover what you need to know. Jesus (Isa) could have had a earthly father, but God chose to be His father because Jesus was and is sinless. Sin is inherited through the Father....... Read and get back to me if you like. We can have further discussion into the deep truth and mystrey of the Lord God Creator of Heaven and Earth. Amen

6:30 pm    August 20, 2008

F.H. message
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Hi Trish,

I'll try to answer some of your questions but I am making a big assumption which is the fact that you belive in GOD. If not, the remaining of my writing might not make any sense to you...

Mohammed is the last prophet and definitly he came after Jesus. The order is based on the start of the prophethood not the birth, the death or the return from any place!

No one knows for sure that Jesus is in heaven. So we have no idead from where he is going to return!....if you continue and ask me why he has to go an return, I'll simply answer you that it is the will of GOD!

Also, it is not necessary for Jessus to be born of a virgin. He can be born from anything if GOD wanted that!....Adam, the first prophet, was created without a mother or father....it is only for us --Humans--that need a men and a women to conceive a child....so, unless you think of GOD as human being, He can create human the way He wishes!

Not only Jesus had special treatement!...most prophets had special treatement too. Not having enough info about other prophets does not mean that they were treated less than Jesus!

For the last question concerning the residence of Mohammed and Jesus, I am not sure what this matter will add to your belief!...I mean wherevere they are it must be a great place as they were prophets....if I were you, I should, may be, worry more where I'll be residing in Heaven :)

I hope I helped clearify some of your questions...


1:30 pm    August 14, 2008

Trish message
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Marhuba,

Can anyone tell me why Muhammad is not returning from heaven, but Jesus Christ is - isn't Muhammed the last prophet. And why was it necessary for Jesus to be born of a virgin without a earthly father - who is his father -an angel you might say? Why all of this special treatment for Jesus Christ (Isa). Where is Muhammed currently residing - next to Jesus in Heaven. Tell me.

Shukran


4:02 am    February 3, 2008
sam
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Im really surprised by this sit, but I ask Allah the only god in the planet to Show you the right way. Islam is the solution for all your problems brothers. We moslems believe that Jesus is a Allahs prophets but not the sun of his.

12:15 am    June 22, 2007
Paul
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Hey Adnane and all!

I've been mulling over a discussion about prophets. Let's see if I can stir up this board a little (and get everyone thinking about prophets). Sorry I haven't been around in a while---

Muslims believe Jesus was a true prophet of God, right?

Am I correct to say that people should believe the truth of God from the true prophet of God? False prophets should be ignored and true prophets should be respected and believed in and obeyed right?

As a Christian I believe Jesus was a prophet of God. I submit myself to His revelations and teachings like His original disciples.

I would like to list a few of Jesus' own statements concerning Himself:

A) I am the Bread of Life
B) I am the Resurrection and the Life
C) If you believe in me you will see the glory of God.
D) All authority in Heaven and earth has been given to me.
E) Before Abraham was I am.
F) I am the Good Shepherd. The Good Shepherd lays down his life for his sheep.
G) I have authority to lay down my life and pick it up again.
H) I and the Father are one.
I) I am the true vine.
J) The Son of man did not come to condemn the world but to save it.
K) If I drive out devils by the finger of God, the Kingdom of Heaven has come upon you.
L) Unless you eat of my flesh and drink of my blood you will have no part of me.
M) I am the way and the truth and the life and no man comes to the Father apart from me.
N) False prophets shall come.
O) False christs shall come and do many miracles.
P) All nations shall hate you because of me.
q) Unless you believe who I say I am you will die in your sins.
r) Men love darkness because their deeds are evil and they refuse to come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.
t) Unless you are born again you will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
u) He who believes in me shall not perish but have everlasting life.
v) Those who do not believe shall be condemned.
w) If you love me you will keep my commandments.
x) My Father always hears me.
y) Forgive them they do not know what they do.
z) It is finished.

As a Christian I believe that all the statements Jesus made were absolutely true even if I do not fully understand them all. True prophets speak the truth.

Now is Jesus a true prophet? The only other option is that He was not a prophet at all and was a super-natural delusional madman. I guess somewhat twisted someone might argue He was mixture of God and delusion.

Tell me if I am wrong? It seems to me Muslims say they believe Jesus was a prophet of God, yet do not extensively study His saying, nor believe and obey what Jesus said. Is this true? It doesn't make sense to me.

Because I do not believe Mohamed was a prophet of God, it makes sense that I do not feel it is important to study his revelations or obey his ways. I could be completely wrong and Mohamed could be a true prophet, but at least my beliefs are consistent with prophetic paradigms.

Prophets speak on behalf of God. They must be listened to if God is real and is speaking through prophets. If a prophet is a false prophet he speaks lies out of his own heart possibly with the help of evil spirits. False prophets are delusional and receive judgment from God who hates having His communication falsified. Right?

Doesn't a true prophet speak the truth of God? Isn't arguing against the truth of a true prophet's word resistance to God Himself?

Do Muslim believe everything Jesus said above in my a-z statements or are Jesus Christ's words ignored or rejected and His person relegated to some non-descript historic spiritual person word "prophet." Was Jesus truly a prophet or is He just someone called a prophet for religious convenience? A prophet is by definition one who speaks the words of God and delivers His revelation to men. Right?

I only listed a few of Jesus' statements. If He was a prophet then ALL OF HIS statements must be true. And Jesus said some bold things!

I am sure this little segment will get some mockery or angry sentiment in response. But why should it? It would seem more consistent to me if Muslims completely rejected Jesus and called him a false prophet and a deceiver. By saying that Jesus is a prophet aren't you committing yourself to the truth of His words and revelations and obedience to His commands and the spreading of His message? Who would say someone is a messenger of God and then reject all or some of his message? That is how men establish their own righteousness isn't it?


3:36 am    April 3, 2007
rose
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that is so amazing! do you know this morning i had an upset stomach because id been camping in the garden overnight! and i just sat down here with a mint tea. i NEVER drink mint tea! merci merci! you made me very happy and this ones for you.!! a sweet for you: >< =)

6:28 am    April 2, 2007
Taher Log
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Here is a cup of mint tea for you, madam.
(___)p

Ssmellah...Cheers ! :-)
Salli 3la Nbi ...!


Taher


6:23 am    April 2, 2007
Teher Log
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"I am expecting anything but a psychedelic answer."

ha+ha= haha
Man, you remind me of a dude called Terrence Mc Kenna, he writes books about the psychedelic mushrooms.
(used by Indians like 9aT used by Yemeni Gentlemen)
His reasoning would take you to the opposite side of logic, and let wonder where which one comes first, She3ban or Remdan.


6:27 pm    April 1, 2007
rose
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im tired people. its like your not getting a word im saying, im getting arguments back against ones i never even made. i even made up a huge post there full of facts and i lost it. seriously.. i need some sweet words from someone in the next post. ..just for me? huh? (heh heh) like... here. "im sure you dont randomly idolise crosses. have some sweets". andane. my answer is phsychadelic. finland. i wont even try to work with all of that stuff. nothing against ur logic.. its just the opposit of mine. i guess its a matter of belief huh people. its like all the main points have been made and its a matter of accepting it or not. only God can make us believe what we do. tomayto/tomAto.. as long as we are open to have the truth revealed it will find us in the end. after all its a spiritual battle. not an intellectual or philosophical one. im sorry i dont have the stamina to argue over and over. i just think it will be revealed in its own way.. to the hearts who are waiting. the way im being pummeled here shows that you dont accept it... so why keep asking for explanation! xx sweets for all xx

9:20 pm    March 31, 2007

Adnane Ben. message
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To add to this,

I have a question for the dear christians who comment on this topic. I think we agree, in fact we can agree and should agree that God is the creator of the universe and everything else and is worthy of respect and admiration. According to your belief that Jesus is God, he came to earth to live with us as human; therefore at some point in time he suddenly SEIZED to exist as God; he became a human just like us; prone to sleeping, eating, working hard, taking a nap, cracking a joke, crying, and eventually prone to death and degradation, the most sacred moment for christians. So, my question is when God became jesus, and SEIZED to become God, and since God has tasked himself with creating everything, sustaining and maintaining it, who was taking care of all that while he was a human with such limited physical strength, only 2 legs, no wings to fly around, only 2 frontal eyes - no way to see 360 around him and scan atoms and monitor distant stars and their temperatures, and so on and so forth.

Please don't tell me he was both at the same time! I am expecting anything but a psychedelic answer.


12:38 pm    March 31, 2007
Taher
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?i began to see crosses even in the wallpaper as he pushed me to do things i didnt want to, in that bedroom.?

-Ehum...Sorry to hear about the abuse, that type of bahavior is not accepted by any religion or balanced individual.
Yes, it must have been painful for you, BUT, that does not tell where you got the significance of the cross from...
If early scholars would have said that the Cross meant : a Highway that leads to Damascus crossed by a road which starts from Jakarta to Milano, probably you would have made a religious concept out of it, without a reference from the bible, just like the case of the trinity?
Symbolism is an encient tradition dating all the way back to the Babylonian civilisation (23rd century BC), and Islam's first mission was to get rid of that...unfortunately, such pagan culture of symbolism is still part of many religions, Christianty included.
A Muslim does not idolize any objects nor human, even the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) before he died, wanted to have a simple burial, so that nobody would idolize his grave. He was a simple man with a devine mission, just like Jesus, Moses and all other prophets before him, and the Muslims have to respect them all and pray for them all, and they do !


?it was so unjust that God had to come and be so degraded as to live with us while we sinned around Him. He could do a special task. it was unjust that we were the ones that killed Him even when it was us He was dying for!?

-listen to yourself for God's sake !
You keep talking like that, and I will convert to Darwinism ! >:@


?but God sees and smells the rotting sin on us. we cant clear a crime by striving to do what the law expected from the start.?

-When you see a little baby smiling, do you see a "GRRR" rotten creature underneath ?
Nobody is rotten by birth, the society and other factors make some people rotten, if they get carried away...
Babies are in a pure state of submission. (Call it innocence, if you will)

?black on white must be removed. how can one with black in them have the purity to clear it?!?

-Who told you that anybody has any black thing on him ? You keep building confusing theories upon assumptions...
You should not feel guilty for being a human being, and contrary to what you believe, God makes no mistakes, because he is Perfection, even if you cann't see that first hand...


? oh if only you could hold my lifes experience! and see that these arent just words but Gods wisdom! that found me! ?

Such is life...we laugh, cry a bit, play dominoes etc :-)?but that does not mean that we have the right to attach God to our favorite gadget, would it be a cross, a square, a menjel, or a ufo.

Be good.


Taher Log.



10:23 pm    March 30, 2007
rose
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hello and salam alykem!
i wore a cross round my neck when i was with a man who didnt love God. he said he did.. but the truth came out in the end. and as i wore that cross it always reminded me of Jesus. that whole year.. i couldnt get it off my neck. it was stuck. i began to see crosses even in the wallpaper as he pushed me to do things i didnt want to, in that bedroom.
the cross for me is a marvelous thing. i cant get it off me. i cant get it out of my mind. eventually a friend unknotted it.. and left one knot in so that i could remember how i was saved by Jesus .. even when i was sinning as i wore His mercy.

i would wear an electric chair, a crocodile or whatever it took to remind me of what Jesus did for me. but i wear only the empty cross. (Jesus is risen!) i dont wear mary or mohammed or man.. muslims sumbit to allah then voice a respect to one specific man; following the teachings of almost only his book daily! for me Jesus isnt just a man. Jesus is the Son in the trinity, whom i was found praying to at 5 yrs.

YES! it was SO unjust that Jesus could/should/would die for us. it was so unjust that God had to come and be so degraded as to live with us while we sinned around Him.. so that He could do a special task. it was unjust that we were the ones that killed Him even when it was us He was dying for! our sin is stinking fithy rotten rags according to the Bible. i ask you.. if a man does something that to you is evil and really very disgusting.. and then he does something that is asked of him anyway.. will you sit with him happily? we like to bargain with God.. "i will do this for You!" or.. "i will give this up!". but God sees and smells the rotting sin on us. we cant clear a crime by striving to do what the law expected from the start. black on white must be removed. how can one with black in them have the purity to clear it?! oh if only you could hold my lifes experience! and see that these arent just words but Gods wisdom! that found me!
again peace be with you! peace and all of the wisdom we seek!


10:01 am    March 26, 2007

hudhud message
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Allah yzeyen sa3dik ya Loghlimi Moule ezaouia ou ynaouar 3lik :)

My 3 biggest points of debate with a good catholic friend have always revolved around a few basic issues which most disaffected christians are often the first to complain about.. modern day christianity has confused people and left them without answers, without resolution. One could start with the idea of a trinity - it simply does not make sense, don't confuse people Mr. Pope: 1 is 1 and 3 is 3, plain and simple.. even a 7 year old child can tell you the trinity makes no sense. And to even think that God would have a son is comparing him to humans and animals, who take on partners and bear offspring. Then why not have a family dynasty of Gods living on earth? And then what would be the point of living on earth at all? If we humans can become gods, why stay on an imperfect planet filled with problems and pain and suffering; why not just go to paradise and live in perfection forever and ever...?
And no one (Jesus or otherwise) should have to pay for any one else's sins or wrong doings - that would be injustice, and the very nature of a God is to be just. God can forgive those whom he chooses, so why would he force an innocent being to be punished for something that another being has done? He forgives whom He wills and punishes whome he wills, but it is always with justice.


11:23 pm    March 24, 2007

Adnane Ben. message
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I was almost going to convert to atheism or christianity, but this wise reply kept me in the corner of the mosque where I belong :)

just kidding - but you brought some wonderful points, I see Taher is having an effect on you, have you been giving away Shfenj? hehehehe


12:56 pm    March 24, 2007
Loghlimi
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Him seh : "The beauty of the Cross is that it fulfills both mercy and judgment at the same time and elucidates how the Love of God work "

-The Cross is a device made by men centuries before Jesus was born. And it was used for executing people. Where do you see the beauty?

If Jesus was executed by a Guillotine, would you carry one around your neck ?
How about if he was killed by a crocodile ? would you carry a crocodile jaw with you for protection and claim that there is beauty in it ? Of course, in that case beauty would be in the eyes of holder.:)

The bible never idolized the cross or any object, and Jesus never said that he was God, on the contrary he was praying God more than once. what other proof do you need ?

But because of the human nature, people have a need to personify God, or attach him to an object just like the idol worshipers did in the encient times.
Islam is clear on the fact that God has no form nor shape, we have to learn how to live with that !

Jesus was a prophet who tried to guide the people of the time, but the man was tortured, humiliated and killed. (Nothing new, many prophets went through the same road)

Islam is clear about the fact that there is Heaven and there is Hell, and the wicked shall pay.
We are not in a position to start using modern psychology with God, and start asking whether he enjoy punishing bad people or not...He has his reasons for doing so, just like he has his reasons for creating the Universe, and you will never be able to understand why...So there is no point trying to outsmart him.
God does not your aproval or existence nor mine to validate his existence, much less to kill himself for you or anybody else?
You make God sound like a "mad scientist" (A3oudobillah) who crated a creature by mistake, and had to come down to earth punish himself for it.

Jesus did not and will not pay the bill for anybody. If a priest is caught molesting children in the church(no offense), he will pay for it! Jesus did not die to cover up his filthy needs, or anybody?s needs for that matter.
God is stronger than anybody?s Ego, and the message is clear : If you don?t want to go to hell, DO the right thing, pray to God, and submit to his will, and not only that...Don?t talk to him as if he would owe you something...
Do your business and don?t worry about his !

Islam teaches people how to be responsible for their own actions :
?You reap what you sow?, why is that too hard to accept ?

Koun Mzian (Be Good)

Loghlimi, minister of the corner.(Zaouia)


12:07 pm    March 24, 2007
Loghlimi
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" as far as moroccan churches are concerned, bring em on!"

- Don't use quotes patented by George Bush without his permission .

Just teasing your intellect. ;-)

Raioo Loves you.

Loghlimi


11:30 pm    March 23, 2007
Mol Jbeer
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1
first, i am knew to this forum. i must admit that i accidently stumbled in this thread, and my duty as a muslim is to dialogue with my fellow christians.

Why is morocco being targeted and why should morocco forsake their faith for christ who is already in their hearts.

Islam is inclusive of christianity and jewdaism; All your prophets ( peace and blessings be upon them) have been mentioned in the Koran and we love them as much as we love our prophets.

where is the problem?


6:12 pm    March 5, 2007
rose
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"surely walk united" darlings! .. lol

6:10 pm    March 5, 2007
rose
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aw wow you guys! what a conversation! how inspiring to see that this has turned (thanks to adnane and paul) to a much deeper level, and that there is less offense being given and taken. ive learned so much from ALL of you. thankyou! u know i was thinking these last days. when i was a young teen i used to have all kinds of devine appointments and prophetic dreams and visions. older people used to come to me and listen! haha! how different it is now. i am humbled. paul you push me to seek God on a deeper level. maybe He is coaxing me on to maturity; i was only young then. today is a new day! i want to learn to be wise (or to be given it as a gift)... so that i can talk to others with a well informed and holy mind. its up to God what gifts He gives me. just now endurance reveals my simple faith. i would have deserted my beliefs for suicide long ago, after suffering from a horrible and untreated illness, if it werent for them being solid. i dont feel like im such a great evangelist. but maybe im a daily witness. or a martyr as the greek says. we all are part of the body. we have each our own purpose.

as far as moroccan churches are concerned, bring em on! we need renewal of the vision! or christians lapse into a downward spiral. relationship with God is first and foremost. hmmm. imagine we ALL lost the books, and the history and had to seek God newly in like.. a jungle cut off somewhere! i wonder how many mighty things would soon happen! only because we didnt just open to chapter or surah bla bla and stare at things while someone else talked. why dont we all search and ask God then for the truth! and for personal first hand revelation! my mum always told me.. if theres one thing i can tell you to do.. its to seek truth. the Bible revered by both muslims and christians says "seek and ye shall find". me thinks itl find us! if we go for it! earnestly..


3:57 pm    March 5, 2007
rose
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hey all. my account stopped notifying me. itl take a while to catch up but be sure im reading everything people have said! i am alive! blessings to you all!

10:41 pm    March 1, 2007

Adnane Ben. message
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Paul Hi - sorry for the delay I didn't mean it. I just wanted to post to let you know I'd reply as soon as I can. I try to find whatever little time I can to communicate online, reply to emails etc. It's not easy :)

10:51 pm    February 25, 2007

Paul Abbas message
54
Hey Adnane,
I like the way you say you want live. It seems to me that you believe that it would be most noble to live sacrificially on behalf of legitimacy and the
well-being of others, and this would require the "sacrificing" of time, resources, and even innocent comforts of a normal existence based upon the pressing demands of righteousness or the needs of hurting or helpless people in need of justice. It does not seem that you would be opposed to some kind of destiny that would involve being a "living sacrifice." The Bible actually commands us to be just that. The Holy Spirit was the promise of supernatural empowerment that the disciples of Jesus received so they could be his "witnesses." The Greek word for "witness" is the same as "martyr." I believe the heroic desires of the human heart are meant to be fulfilled.

I just watched the movie "Flyboys" this weekend. The main character "Rawlings" exhibited much daring in the movie nearly losing his life several times while saving fellow pilots and those he loved while serving in the armed forces of the allies. The heroic selfless courage struck a chord in my heart and I end up "wanting to live like that." I believe human beings in general, but especially men, want live heroic purposeful lives in fulfillment of a greater cause than one's own life.

I would like differentiate a little between several types of prophets. You said that prophets don't die by their religion but they live by it. Do not we all both live and die by our religion? We are like seeds. Every plant and animal in creation including man comes from the seed principal. The seed is planted in the ground and then it dies, it transformed, and then is resurrected in new life. Prophets in particular usually bear more fruit after their death than before. No no ever listened to or believed Jeremiah in his time, but today he lives on through his words. I like studying the prophets of the Bible because they lived sacrificially and eternally and spoke on behalf of the righteousness of God when people wanted to make up their own righteousness. Many prophets of the Old Testament lived very painful lives filled with threats of death, rejection and much persecution. Some were required to do unpleasant jobs that they really did not want to do at first. Moses did not want to go back to Egypt at first. Jeremiah cursed the day he was born because his life was so confrontational. Hosea was told to marry a prostitute to demonstrate God's love. Isaiah was told to walk around for a time naked! John the Baptist got his head cut off for confronting a wicked king concerning his illegitimate marriage. A true prophet was and is a friend and servant of God. They would talk to God and receive His counsel for the people and then relay the message turning people from their sins back to God and announcing the true plans of the God into the earth. There were also false prophets speaking what the people wanted to hear for selfish advancement. Beside the true prophets and the false prophets there were the false/true prophets-- true prophets who gave way to self-pity or fear at times. Jonah disobeyed before he obeyed and he did not care about the Ninevites he was called to. Elijah fled Jezebel. Moses struck the rock when he was supposed to simply speak to it. David was a prophet who at one point in his life was an adulterer who needed Nathaniel the prophet to deal with his sin. Prophets take many forms. Many false prophets were killed by the God's judgment. Jesus indeed was a prophet who both was prophesied and who prophesied and who prophesied that both true and false prophets would come after him. Bible prophecy is fascinating in my opinion. The prophecies are fulfilled but not understood usually until after they come to pass. For example the Bible prophets prophesied that the Messiah would be born of a virgin, born in Bethlehem, come out of Egypt, and be called a Nazarene. No one could have guessed how precisely accurate the prophecies would be fulfilled. Jesus was supernaturally born by the Spirit's overshadowing of Mary. Joseph and Mary were in Bethlehem because of a census when Jesus was born. The magi's interview with Herod led to persecution by the jealous king. An angel told Joseph to take Jesus and Mary to Egypt. They escaped the slaughter in Ramah that was also prophesied. They returned back from Egypt and settled later in Nazareth in Gallilee. All this was specifically prophesied and came to pass in the most precise detail but could never have been specifically understood until after happening.

Now back to the crux of the matter that you said was not understood-- the sacrificial death of Jesus. I believe I can explain this using some prophetic Scriptures.

Why did the prophet Jesus have to die? I mentioned in another segment the direct prophecy that John the Baptist made concerning Jesus, "Behold, the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world." I also mentioned the Jewish covenantal sacrificial system of blood and the forshadowing especially of Abraham and Isaac on the Mountain that the Lord brought provision. I'll return to these ideas after a bit of direct prophecy from Isaiah that baffled Jews for centuries. The messiah often is prophesied in terms of a roaring king of military triumph conquering wicked foes and ruling the nations. But the prophecy of Isaiah 53 (actually starting in 52) is almost a polar opposite picture. The Messiah is prophesied as a Lamb led silent to the slaughter. I'll include it for reference in full length because it speaks so directly toward the crucification of Jesus:

Isaiah 52:13 thru 53:12:

Behold, My servant shall deal prudently; He shall be exalted and extolled and be very high.

Just as many were astonished at you, so His visage was marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men. So shall He sprinkle many nations. Kings shall shut their mouths at Him; For what had not been told them they shall see. And what they had not heard they shall consider.

Who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?

For he shall grow up before Him as a tender plant, and as a root out of dry ground. He has no form or comeliness; And when we see him, there is no beauty that we should desire Him. He is despised and rejected by men, a man or sorrows and acquainted with grief. and we hid, as it were, our faces from Him; He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.

Surely He has born our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed Him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.

But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement for our peace was upon Him. And by His stripes we are healed.

All like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one to his own way; and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

He was oppressed and he was afflicted, yet He opened not his mouth; He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before his shearers is silent, so He opened not his mouth.

He was taken from prison and from judgment, and who will declare his generation? For He was cut off from the land of the living; For the transgressions of my people. And they made his grave with the wicked--but with the rich at His death, because He had done no violence nor was any deceit in His mouth.

Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him, He has put Him to grief. When You make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, He shall prolong His days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand. He shall see the labor or His soul, and be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, for He shall bear their iniquities.

Therefore I will divide him a portion with the great, and He shall divide the spoil with strong. Because He poured out his soul unto death, and he was numbered with the transgressors, and He bore the sin of many and made intercession for the transgressors.


Behold the Lamb of God! Jesus' dying on the cross for the sins of the world is not a Christian idea that they came up with after Jesus rose from the dead. Jesus' death was specifically prophesied in detail hundreds of years before the fulfillment in Christ. The Lord's pleasure and plan is that the Messiah suffer for the sins-- our sins and bring justification to many.

My sacrificial living cannot atone for the guilt of my sins. I live sacrificially because my God sacrificed Himself in Love for me. I love because He first loved me. I do not live sacrificially for the purposes of somehow being judged well and making it into paradise.

If you live sacrificially for your own sake at the judgment you are living for self-justification in the end.

The prophecy began, "Who will believe our message?" This is the question of all questions. Faith in Christ says, " I will" to the Lord's question through Isaiah. Many will He justify. Others who refuse to believe will receive condemnation through their rejection of the Lord's plan of justification and salvation from the chastisement of sin. Neither of us must be punished for our sins. Christ already was punished in our place. If we refuse to receive that heroic gift of grace we accept our own punishment at the judgment. Efforts at self-justification don't work.

We can be free to serve God without fear! The beauty of the Christian faith is that the emphasis of glory, the boast of the religion is in what God does for people not in what people try to do for God.

I fully expect to receive awesome rewards for my good works of righteousness done in faith with my God, but more than anything I can not wait to cast my crowns at the feet of the Lamb of God and thank Him for His death on my behalf. He became my way to be reconciled unto God when my righteousness was like filthy rags in his sight. He justified my simple faith in His death and Resurrection.

Yes I do believe He defeated sin for me!


4:37 pm    February 25, 2007

Adnane Ben. message
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Paul Hi - Love comes up when one describes their relationship with God, in any religion, besides "admiration", "reliance", "trustworthiness", "peace of mind" and more. Sacrifice is one of the aspects of this relationship, but could it be that human beings differ in describing what they mean by sacrifice? I think this is the main point of inflection. You associate sacrifice with blood, jesus sacrificed himself, or the father sacrificed his son, depending how one understands. But someone else like myself describes sacrifice as giving things when necessary (my time, talents, knowledge, money, food, books, a good job and even my life) in order to champion a good cause. Giving up my life is not to kill myself, but rather serve willingly in a legal war as a soldier under the leadership of a legitimate government, or in self-defense or defense of the weak and the offended when their lives are threatened. And when I die in such fate, I don't expect anyone to worship me or use my act to explain the unexplainable. Rather, hopefully I would have dispersed evil, promoted good and inspired others. God asks never to kill a life without a good, just and legitimate reason. The Bible talks about that I assume. It is for this why I don't understand the notion that Jesus sacrificed himself in sacred ways in return humanity needs to believe to be saved. Prophets cannot behave in such ways. Prophets live by their religion, not die by their religion. This extends to humanity as the most important message.

4:00 pm    February 25, 2007

Paul Abbas message
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Adnane
Is it possible that the God who created human beings to propagate through the earth by marriage and family could be less personal in His relationships than those He created?

I believe He is the master of relationships, intimacy and communications-- the persona of Love. God is love. Love is relational intimate and communicative. I do not believe that we can describe love without using terms that equate to friend or family.

Love is also, may I add, sacrificial. Love is greatest when selfless sacrifice makes a way for a friend. Is there any argument to the statement: "There is no greater love than this: that a man would lay down his life for a friend."? The greatness of God in Christ is that He expresses Himself friendly in love towards who are his enemies by lawless behavior-- a friend to sinners.

I believe the "notions" of "Father, son and sacrifice" are the greater realities of a God who is love personified. The terms are not meant for comfort alone but for our understanding of truth.

If your God is not a Father, if He does not sacrifice in love, if He does express Himself in friendly terms, if He is not relational in communication, what is He?

Does "He" not become an "it" that is a distant and mysterious power that rewards or punishes us based on our most fervent efforts to perform religious duties better than other people? "He" no longer becomes a person but a historic system of law that husbands our existence with vague assurances of nothing. I should know, I lived under the "Christian" version of this lifeless impersonal God for more than twenty years.

What if the mysterious One wants not hide Himself in veiled darkness but instead reveals the mystery of His love to those who would come to Him like little children wanting to listen to "Dad" tell "His"story? Daniel the prophet called Him the Revealer of Mysteries.

And what kind of love is this that He lavishes His love upon us that we should be called His children. And that is who we are!


4:00 pm    February 21, 2007
lovely
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The question about whether God is our father has been raised on numerous occasions. One of my former students asked me just that, and quoted the same verse from the bible. My argument is that: Just like Newton has discovered the law of Gravity and Edison has invented the Electricity, Bell: the phone and so on, we call these pioneers the fathers of their craft or wit. Edison is the father of electricity. This obviously is not equal to him having slept with the mother of electricity or having been the physical father of it.
Some may argue that these are semantics... Well, each language has its semantics. Peter, I will advise you to read one of two books: More in Common than you think... Or: What did Jesus really say. Now, the latter has quite a few typos, especially older editions, but it is rather entertaining, quotes from both the Bible and the Qur'an... And although pushy at times, will still stimulate your thinking and at least shed some light on the beliefs of Muslims.
I typed like a maniac as I am about to get going and would like you to excuse any misspellings...
Have a great day
Z

10:19 am    February 21, 2007

Adnane Ben. message
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"Peter says we actually become partakers of the Divine nature through faith in Christ. Now that is wonderful mystery! Me or you a child of God! "

Well, you said it all. It remains a mystery.

Some believe it others don't see it that way. At the end of the day, we are talking about the same thing in different ways.

I am the son of my biological father and God wants me to honor my biological father and be good to him. As for God, he wants me to be good and do good. He doesn't want me to be his son or his sacrifice. He doesn't need my blood. He is all set. As for you, you choose to picture God as your father. If it helps you see things clearer, go at it. Whatever makes you feel comfortable.


9:16 pm    February 20, 2007

Paul Abbas message
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I'd like to add a little more concerning God's forgiveness. I think I am right to believe the Islam believes in a God that forgives. I wondered how Islam explained the Lord's provision in forgiveness. A young Muslim I was talking to in Chicago a few years ago quoted the Bible verse, "His mercy exceeds his judgment therefore He forgives." I liked that because it provides for a God who loves and is not looking to punish anyone as long as they turn to Him and ask for forgiveness.

As simple as this thinking is, it lacks elucidation. How does that work? How is He able to forget about sins and forgive them when He says that He punishes sin? Is it just about how He feels on a given day or how dramatically sincere our request and repentance is?

The beauty of the Cross is that it fulfills both mercy and judgment at the same time and elucidates how the Love of God works. The Bible says that God demonstrates His love for us in this, while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. Because "it is finished" I can rest the assurance of forgiveness on the work of God's Son. I don't have to wonder how I feel or God feels. His promise is forgiveness through the blood of Jesus to those who confess (agree with the nature of sin and turn from it) their sins and put their faith in Jesus' shed blood.

Both the Old and New Testament say that there is "no forgiveness without the shedding of blood." Everything in the Jewish religious system of worship included blood. The ark of the covenant that contained the Law of God had a mercy seat on top of it that required blood to be put on it. The high priest could only enter the Most Holy Place once a year and that with blood. Mercy came through blood.
When Abraham went up Mount Moriah to offer Isaac at God's request, God provided the ram at the last moment and the Mountain was named after the Lord's provision. Jesus was crucified on the same mountain years later. God was foreshadowing the work of Christ on the Cross throughout all of Israel's history. When John the Baptist came to prepare the way for the coming of the Lord he said, "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world." Was John lying? That would discredit the entire Bible. I know the truth is not about semantics but reality. Such a reality makes good sense.

The reason that the sacrifice had to be perfect and complete was so that the Jewish sacrificial system could be fulfilled. Yearly, daily and seasonal sacrifices were required under levitical law. When Christ came as the eternal Son of God manifested in the flesh and submitted Himself to the Cross, a lasting sacrifice was made for all people of all ages. The temple curtain was rent supernaturally at the time of Christ's death and the Lord was announcing that the way had been made for mankind to return to perfect fellowship with God-- a new, better, perfect lasting covenant of forgiveness was established in Jesus' blood. Later the temple was destroyed in 70AD. The Jewish sacrifices are no longer offered. I believe they will try to rebuild the temple and offer sacrifices again in the end-time but God will not accept such sacrifices because He has provided His Son in fulfillment of the Law and He is not going dismiss the suffering of His Son for the striving of the Jews to establish the righteousness of the levitical system. All nations can fellowship with the most holy God through Christ's blood. He is the door, the way, the life, the provision.

The beauty of the Cross is that it is the work of God in the flesh. We get to see Jesus suffer like us and more. We get to see a God who would rather suffer judgment for us than have us suffer ourselves. God loves us so much and He showed it. We don't have to guess at the love of God. You mentioned that you do not want to claim a probability but a sure thing. The Cross makes sense because the Bible also says there is no salvation apart from the Lord. (Isaiah) Men have need of forgiveness and salvation. God provided the provision Himself. Because salvation and forgiveness are from God by His plan and provision, fallen men can give up futile efforts to establish their own provision. People cannot pride themselves on their righteousness in the face of the truth of the Gospel. We must be willing to receive a gift not based on our good works. Boasting pride is eliminated and exchanged for praise to the Savior. God gets the glory due Him and we get all that we need. More than anything we get Him! We can receive full adoption rights as sons and daughters redeemed and restored to fellowship with our Heavenly Father.

Before I was born again I lacked assurance of anything concerning God. I guess I was predominantly an agnostic-- I just did not know. When I cried out to Him in faith, He came to me in power and granted me assurance. The Bible says faith is the assurance of things hoped for. Like the peace beyond understanding so is the love that surpasses knowledge and the super-natural witness of assurance given by the Holy Spirit.

As for Jesus being the Son of God, what about the Father testifying Himself when Jesus submitted himself to John's baptism, "This is my beloved Son with whom I am well pleased." Dad seemed pleased with the boy!

Many Jehovah witnesses deny Christ's deity. When I asked the Father for wisdom to speak to them concerning the nature of Christ--God in the flesh, I heard these question rolling around in my mind, "Do dogs have kittens? Do cats have puppies?" The implication is powerful. The nature of who we are is determined by our father. What happens if we become a born again child of God? Do we take on our Fathers nature? Peter says we actually become partakers of the Divine nature through faith in Christ. Now that is wonderful mystery! Me or you a child of God!

Blessings.


9:24 am    February 20, 2007

Adnane Ben. message
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Paul, I forgot to comment on one of the quotes from the Bible you raised. You mentioned how jesus said "Father, why have you forsaken me". You were probably quoting one of the several version of the Bible, but what I heard before is that many christians are confused about this verse. Many use it to prove that Jesus is the son of God since he called him father. Some versions say: "Lord, why have you forsaken me". Which has no indication of calling to father as a parent. But then again, all christian will probably agree that it doesn't matter whether some versions say father and others lord; father is equivalent to lord; that father is an indication that the lord is the father of all creatures; but wouldn't that make everyone a son of God? it can get really complicated.. before one even gets a chance to focus on the real important essence of religion.

9:18 am    February 20, 2007

Adnane Ben. message
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Yes of course, I agree. But it will be difficult for a christian to believe in that. For them, it's a quote from the quran, a book they probably doesn't hold any weight for them. I usually stay away from getting into the semantics of it. In fact, I try to stay away from preaching Islam or refuting christianity. Although I think it's important to talk about it at least to immediate familly members, they are the exception. Yet, there must be a better way for individuals to decide for themselves. A muslim and a christian debating over how their respective religions are the truth, and the other's is wrong, are like two people chasing each other inside a giant guinea pig exercise wheel.

8:01 am    February 20, 2007
khayibaba
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just one clarification on something you said Adnane: Jesus (3isa) is not DEAD, he's been called to Stay beside GOD till the day of no return:). he's as it's called in the koran (marfou3e bayna assama'i wa al arde). Other thing about saying that Jesus is the son of GOD well there is an AYA a whole one just for this matter. (oulhou allahou a7ade allahou ssamade male yalide wallame youlade wa lame yakou koufou ouho a7ade) correct me if i'm wrong please:).
thanx

12:53 am    February 20, 2007

Adnane Ben. message
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Paul, thanks for taking the time to explain lordship and forgiveness from the christian perspective. The first part of your message about lordship is well understood and aligns with Islam. We believe in God because he is all of that which you described. I have to be honest and say it, and I have said it over and over in previous discussions with friends, I don't yet understand the concept of accepting jesus as a sacrifice. Well, it doesn't stop there for me. I don't see why jesus is entitled by humans as the son of God.

I'm a simple man with a simple mind. I don't claim to be smart or have a deep profound mind that has the cognitive capacity to wrap itself around the concept of jesus-son-sacrifice-perfect-blood. Given my simple man, I know my limits. I know also that Islam answers my questions about christianity in a simple and quiet honestly reasonable way. I don't have to spend my life struggling to understand the concept of christianity that you so politely and sincerely spent time to explain - I thank you. I like Islam when it tells me that Jesus was just a prophet, a human. Yes he was equipped with incredible miracles as proof of his prophethood, to give more strenght to his message, to raise his influence. But that isn't necessarily sufficient reason to declare him as a son of God, or as God. Moses before him had miracles as well, that no human could do. Jews didn't go around declaring him the son of God. or the brother of God or God. He split the sea. Yes, he split the heavy duty millions of Gallon of water in half, and is people walked through it. Still, he is just a prophet, not a relative of God. I just want to clarify my understanding of miracles because i think it is important. When I believe that Jesus revived the dead and healed the chronically ill, or when Moses split the sea, or when Mohammed described Jerusalem over night, I don't mean that these people did this by themselves. That they are supernatural. I believe none of that can happen without God calling for those miracles to happen. So let's make that clear.

So having said that, I believe Jesus is another prophet, and he follows the same pattern as 1000 prophets before him. He tried to let people know who is God, gives them good instructions about how to live life better, and warns them that there is some form of punishment and reward after death.. that you can't believe that you can get away with screwing left and right and when you die nothing with happen, so who cares. Or you can't believe that as you invest your life in doing good, you'll die without reward. Thats it! all the talk about jesus being the son of God, about the minute you accept jesus as a sacrifice you are clean, boom kabum! all of that is overhead, is unnecessary over-belief that confuses simple minds like myself.

Also Islam makes it clear that each soul is responsible for its own journey. If you've done good, great! if you've done some bad stuff, no other soul can carry your bad deeds.. "Wa la Taziro Waziratoun Wizra Okhra". No sinful soul is capable of carrying the sins of another sinful soul. sort of, soul A says I'll take all of your bad deeds, just believe in me or do something for me. Islam cancels all of this, and it makes sense. It should be kept simple. Only God can decide what to do with your sins. He can forgive them, wipe them, or leave them. Jesus, Moses, Mohammed and all prophets will also be judged just like you and me because they are humans, no doubt about that, only that the verdict in their case is probably clear. I'm not sure, maybe not.

Finally, I just want to say that in islam we have the opportunity to seek forgiveness at any moment. As long as we regret something wrong we did, we ask god sincerely, and then we don't go back to doing it again. God invites us to ask for forgiveness, but we shouldn't be 100% sure that we're forgiven, it's up to him. But we shouldn't be depressed either and complain why are we left unclear about whether we're forgiven or not. It really doesn't matter.

There is an infintely small probability that jesus's message was misunderstood. That he will pay for all your sins. It's almost analogous to how infinitely small it is to win Illinois state lottery to pay all your past, present and future bills. Once in a while someone gets lucky and wins the lottery, but most of lottery winners go bankrupt in a few years.

Reigion shouldn't be a game of probability like the lottery. It should be something that you can use in your daily life to improve it and see the result. So you sinned, so what! it's not the end of it, and you don't need someone who passed away hundred of years ago to be humanly aware of your present sins and forgive them. He was a human then. He is dead. He cannot do much about you now. But you are alive, and you can do something about it by yourself. It's a three simple step program: 1. acknowledge your wrong doing. 2. Ask for guidance, wisdom and strength not to do the crap again. and finally, don't do it again. If you do it again, well it's another sin. But keep repeating the program until you stop doing the crap for good. It's a three step program regardless of religion, really.

Cheers!


11:52 pm    February 19, 2007

Adnane Ben. message
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As a tangent, because it is not very important to me, you obviousely are not Moroccan as you claim to be. I think I can detect Moroccana quiet well, much like in a highlander movie, and you my friend are not Moroccan.

As far as I'm concerned, you can practice your own religion as you wish. If you're complaining about not being able to build churches or whatever it is you're complaining about, then I'm not very knowledgeable about government policies, building codes etc. You're debating the wrong crowd. I can put you in touch with the right people in Morocco just let me know. Actually, I have a friend producer in the Moroccan TV who would be interested in inviting you for an interview about Christianity in Morocco. That will be a good channel for you to express yourself since I'm sure you'll be given that opportunity. Let me know about that as well. Also if you have a perceived conception that you're rejected or will be rejected friendship by Muslims, then maybe you should start counting how many Muslims actually reject you. In the meantime, count how many Muslim friends you have. I really don't know what you're looking for. Oh and yeah, you can be my friend no problem at all!

One more note, try not to mix history. Muslims didn't prosecute Spanish. Muslims in North Africa were asked by the overwhelmed officials of southern Spain to help them and protect them against the barbaric rulers of Spain at the time. Muslims came for help, and saved the Christians from the corrupt king. Muslims were offered to stay and protect Spain. Eventually rose to power by a natural and legitimate process. Review your history. Muslims allowed all Christians and Jews to practice their faith as they wish. And this principle stands strong today as Christians and jews practice their faith publicly and openly in Muslim countries such as Syria, Lebanon and Iraq. Morocco has a huge majority of Muslims, mosques everywhere, and a small population of Christians (foreigners) who probably are either non-practicing people or do go to the churches that operate in their respective towns. On the other hand, if you're so proud of Christian rulers, then when they took over Spain why did they have to:

1. Kick every Muslim and Jew out.
2. Force Jews to become Christians (Marranos)
3. Force Muslims to become Christians.

What kind of belony is that?

You should be the first to denounce that, would you?

In addition, one of the main reasons Muslim immigrants are able to practice their religion freely in Europe and America is mainly because of Christian religion's tolerance. It is because Europeans and America are secular countries. The chruch has been silenced long ago by government constitution. So I don't really give you the credit for the free life of Muslims in America and Europe, simply because Muslims and Jews have suffered under the Christian church in Spain as an example.

Cheers!


11:51 pm    February 19, 2007

Paul Abbas message
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Hey Adnane I have been giving meditation to some of your discussion concerning "subtle stuff " expressions of your faith and also some of your frustrations with the concepts of Lordship and forgiveness.

I like what you said concerning making simple hidden decisions to do what is right according to your conscience rather than follow the sinful or selfish patterns of living according to the world. I am not sure this is true, but I think nearly every mainstream religion that esteems some form of righteousness would emphasize living in such a way as to maintain a clear conscience before God. I believe that people who forsake the promptings of their conscience and give themselves over to sin and perversions lose all sensitivity to God and become dangerous to any society.

An interesting question is what is a "conscience"? It seems to me to be God-given internal governor that is an expression of the government of God. The Bible promises that in the New Covenant the laws of God would written in the heart and the minds of God's people in such a powerful way that people would not need to be taught righteousness from the outside because the Law of God would be so powerfully inscribed within that people could live right and pleasing unto the Lord by the government of the spirit within.

I want to address the concepts of "Lordship" and "forgiveness" according to a Christian perspective and hopefully avoid abusive and irrational arguments that Laila recently expressed frustration with. I believe that "Lordship" and "forgiveness" are interwoven in the foundation of the Christian faith in the most beautiful way. Without Lordship and forgiveness there is no Christian faith.

Is it possible that Lordship can be a concept of perfection? What I am asking basically is, "Can a perfect boss be a concept that can be rationally accepted?" Say the perfect boss was given the responsibility of running an entire kingdom or country. Could the perfect boss be possible? (I have had bosses I actually enjoyed working for, so even in natural terms, I believe it is conceivable.) What if the boss was perfect in love and respect? What if he would never give you a job assignment that would not be both challenging stimulating and fruitful? What if he always had your best interests at heart even while running the Kingdom? What if he would lead by example with longsuffering patience and dilligent self-sacrifice? What if he always led rightly? What if he always led with compassion and justice? What if his wisdom and knowledge were unfathomable and impeccable? What if he was both the perfect friend of the needy and humble and the perfect enemy of the proud and selfish? What if he rewarded good work perfectly and never could be bribed with poor work? What if he was perfectly honest? What if he was more concerned with treating people like family than being in charge? What if he always tried to release responsibilities to those who would want to learn to grow in government? What if he would never use his position to lord over or humiliate his subjects? What if he would stand up for and die if necessary for those who served in his kingdom? What if all his educational videos were stimulating and he had great jokes to tell during coffee break? What if the job assigments he gave perfectly matched the abilities personalities and temperments of his employees? What if his voice never disagreed with the voice of conscience? What if he would wash his servants feet even though he was the boss?

Even as I write my heart says, "Yes, I want to serve that Lord!" I do not believe the Lordship of God needs to be separated from perfection. Such a Lord would deserve service in my opinion especially if He....

Here is where I would like to combine the concepts of Lordship and forgiveness with the idea of perfection-- a perfect Lord, perfect forgiveness and "perfect" rebellion.

What if God is the perfect Lord? Would not any rebellion away from perfection to "do your own thing" be perfect rebellion? To disobey perfection and choose sin is perfect disobedience.

Now what if God the perfect Lord is also the perfect judge and He perfectly punishes sin perfectly leaving no sin unpunished. How could someone who sinned against God be restored to perfect fellowship with Him? He could try to do good works to earn a restoration of fellowship, but justice is not based on good works. Justice is based on the principal that guilty behavior is punished. Goods works do not atone for guilty deeds and restore perfect fellowship. A murderer is a murderer in a court of law no matter how many noble deeds he does before standing before the judge for judgment. If the judge is perfect he will punish the guilty according to the demands of Law. The guilty must pay the punishment. Now can a perfect Lord who is a perfect judge restore perfect fellowship to a person who perfectly sinned against Him?

I want to introduce the concept of perfect forgiveness. The demands of justice are only avoided through forgiveness. A governor can pardon one who transgresses the laws of a society and that person's punishment is canceled and he is restored to society. Without forgiveness the guilty sinner must be punished for every act of lawlessness. God is eternal and perfect therefore his justice is eternal and perfect. Hell is an eternal punishment of death and torment.

The Bible is clear that God's mercy exceeds His judgment. There is forgiveness with the perfect Lord. How can a perfect Lord offer perfect forgiveness and still be a perfect Judge perfectly punishing sins?

I hope I haven't lost you because I want to try to explain the very center of Christian faith in a simple and profound manner explaining God's perfect plan of Salvation and forgiveness. I hope you can "see" the perfect work that Jesus accomplished when He died on the Cross after explanation:

Justice and Mercy only come together through the concept of SACRIFICE. Many religions offer sacrifices. The primary principal of sacrifice is that an innocent animal is offered in death for the forgiveness of the guilty sinner. The death of the animal appeases the anger of the Judge. Guilt is "punished" on the sacrificial offering. Now God would need a perfect sacrifice to restore sinners to perfect fellowship with Him. Let us look at the perfect sacrifice of Jesus, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

Jesus never sinned. He was born of the perfect seed of the Father planted in Mary. He demonstrated that He was God's son by his demonstrations of authority that could only be accomplished by God-- He forgave sins, healed disease, cleansed lepers, raised the dead, drove out devils, multiplied food, commanded nature etc. His destiny would only be fulfilled though as the Lamb of God.

When Jesus was crucified, he was innocent. He became a king crowned with thorns hung naked and bleeding, beaten and tortured in front of a nation who rejected him and a world that mocked him. When He died He said, "Forgive them they don't know what they do," and "Father why have you forsaken me," and then, "It is finished." Let us look at those statements in view of the concepts of perfect justice and mercy meeting in a perfect sacrifice of a perfect Lord:

The cross was much more than a man brutally dying. The Cross was the greatest act of legal fulfillment the world will ever see. Justice was provided for sin for all humanity of all time. Let me explain: when Jesus said "Forgiven them," he was offering himself as sacrifice to be punished in the stead of sinners who had broken the laws of God. When He said, "Father, why have forsaken me?" he was acknowledging that His Father in Heaven the Judge was punishing Him like He would punish guilty people who deserved punishment. The Judge poured out wrath on His own Son to provide for the demands of justice! Jesus willingly received the curse of the Father on His own head. Cursed is every man that hangs on a tree. Jesus bore the transgressions of the world a perfect sacrificial Lamb. When He said, "It is finished," he announced that the sacrifice was accomplished. Jesus then descended to hell. He had defeated sin and death and hell now could not hold Him. Justice had been accomplished by the supreme act of love and mercy. The Father, the Judge in Heaven could now forgive sinners and restore them to perfect fellowship with Him because Jesus' perfect sacrifice provided for the punishment and bore the guilt of their sins. The sacrifice and blood are perfect!

Now God restores fellowship with sinful human beings if they are simply willing to receive the work of Christ as a gift. Many people are too proud to humbly receive the work of Jesus for their own salvation from sin. They try to impress God with multiplied good religious works of their own righteousness. They boast in their piety and knowledge. All this seeks to do away with the perfect work of Christ on Calvary's cross. God will not have His perfect Son's blood mocked and despised by proud humans seeking to establish their own righteousness. The perfect Lord offered himself in love to restore lost sinners to perfect fellowship with the Heavenly Father. No more guilt and shame to those who trust in Jesus!

And then there is the perfect inheritance he gives...

I would like to write more but I would like to hear some response.

It would seem foolish to me to reject the sacrifice of Jesus because then one will have to pay for his own sins when eternal justice places his soul in the balances of justice and he is found wanting according to the Law. It is only by grace we can claim forgiveness and salvation.


10:36 am    February 19, 2007
Laila
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Dear Sir,
At first I thought you were someone rational...someone with whom I could exchange ideas...but after your latest post...all I see is somebody confused and trying to prove his point not based on rational and respect to others in this forum but based on some hatred and disrespect. Unfortunately you seem to be the kind of person who has to bash on others to give meaning to what you believe in and you drive a feeling of superiority this way...it's sad...but oh well...
I do not care what religion you are or were ... all I care about when I came into this forum is to have some meaningful and civilized exchange of ideas...I have not disrespected you or your ideas so I would like to ask you to do the same. you said all Muslims here attacked you?!!! did I? did Adnane?
As when it comes to explanation of the verses of the Quran...well let's just say that you forgot how the Arabic language works and that there is a linguistic concept called HOMONYMS (words written in the same way but have different meanings.)
If you are genuinely interested in knowing about explanations of verses then I advise you to read "fee dhilaal al Quraan." If you use those explanations in this forum then I will reconsider responding to your comments...but going to online sources that God-knows where they come from and quoting them is not fair to Muslims and an INSULT to OUR INTELLIGENCE as human beings.
Salam,
Laila.

8:59 am    February 19, 2007
Morocco for Jesus
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31

Hi Fleur


As I said, we don't need hadith to expose islam, quran exposes itself, by being full of mistakes and anti human citations. The life of Muhammad just make it worse to better explain the quran, which is a book without head, not tail, that absolutely nobody can understand without external references.
On the other side, the bible is self sufficient, we don't need explanations from different sects to explain, like in islam


Someone said :
"The word friends is not the correct translation. The original arabic word in the verse is "awliya", plural for 'wali', meaning patron, protector and even leader."

the quran says that "the muslims are the AWLIA of allah"
DOES IT MEAN THAT THE MUSLIMS PROTECT ALLAH ????
This guy said "patron, protector and even leader.", so when quran says the believers muslims are the awlia of allah, it means the muslims protect allah, what a weak god they have..

This is a lie muslims love to repeat, wali means all the words i posted, friend proctector, governor, etc. A friend is your protector, this is why he is your friend, not protector physically, but also supporter, confident, etc.

Also, if what you said is right, it means that all the muslims in USA and Europe are the hypocrites of islam.
How come quran tells "don't take governors, patrons, presidents, leaders non muslims", but the muslims run away from muslim countries to beg for money and jobs in the chrisian infidel land ? This shows that muslims have skizophrenia and, in fact, they do not care at all about their book.


Some Macshaddad who cannot answer my points, tries to attack my person, as all muslims. First let me remind you that the quran does not allow you to pray for me, it's a big sin in islam:

let's see what he said :

""Taqia" is a Shia concept that the sunnis consider as a fraud. "

This is another big lie of the muslims, Taqia is in the quran, and the prophet of islam himself used to teach it:

Let's speak with knowledge now, read sura 3 verse 28 :

"Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them..."

This is the verse in the quran teaching all the muslims to be hypocrites toward non muslims. EXCEPT BY WAY OF PRECAUTIONS.
Only by precaution, you can take a non muslim as friend, but the general case is NOT.

This translation is a joke for me, when we read it in arabic, we clearly find the word TATTAQOO, from where TOQAAT and TAQIA come from. But westerners who have no clue about arabic cannot even discuss this :
This is the arabic quran:
لَا يَتَّخِذِ الْمُؤْمِنُونَ الْكَافِرِينَ أَوْلِيَاءَ مِنْ دُونِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ وَمَنْ يَفْعَلْ ذَلِكَ فَلَيْسَ مِنَ اللَّهِ فِي شَيْءٍ إِلَّا أَنْ تَتَّقُوا مِنْهُمْ تُقَاةً وَيُحَذِّرُكُمُ اللَّهُ نَفْسَهُ وَإِلَى اللَّهِ الْمَصِيرُ

You can find the word by yourself : --> تَتَّقُوا

Let's bring the official explanation in english for the non arabic speakers :
http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=3&tid=8052
For arabic speakers, this is the exact same explanation in arabic (although muslims hide a lot from it when translating) :

http://quran.al-islam.com/Tafseer/DispTafsser.asp?l=arb&taf=KATHEER&nType=1&nSora=3&nAya=28

The Prohibition of Supporting the Disbelievers

Allah prohibited His believing servants from becoming supporters of the disbelievers, or to take them as comrades with whom they develop friendships, rather than the believers. Allah warned against such behavior when He said,

>> Now the hadith which shows that it is a must for islam to be a hypocrite :

Al-Bukhari recorded that Abu Ad-Darda' said, "We smile in the face of some people although our hearts curse them.''

>>Al bukhari is the most authentic collector of hadith, islamic tradition :

Al-Bukhari said that Al-Hasan said, "The Tuqyah is allowed until the Day of Resurrection.''

>> Because islam consider christians and jews as enemies (this is why they have to fight them, kill them, and humiliate them, sura 9 verse 29), a muslim can never take a christian as friend, except by trying to convert him, or trying to be hypocrite with him.


Let's see how Muhamd used to teach how to lie :

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/032.smt.html#032.6303

Allah's Messenger said: A liar is not one who tries to bring reconciliation amongst people and speaks good, or he conveys good. Ibn Shihab said he did not hear that exemption was granted in anything what the people speak as lie but in three cases:
- in battle
- for bringing reconciliation amongst persons
- the narration of the words of the husband to his wife, and the narration of the words of a wife to her husband (in a twisted form in order to bring reconciliation between them).

>> From a moral perspective, this hadith is a disaster. Lying, no matter what happens, can only create problems, sooner or later.
Islam is the absolute only cult that believes Lying solves problems...

"Remember the Andalous and how Muslims, Jews and Christians co-existed but at the end Christians BY THE SWORD sent muslims and jews back to north africa or the middle east"

Who cares ? Muslims invaded Spain, actually muslims used terror and terrorism to invade all non muslim lands, From India Up to France. Can you tell me what muslims were doing in Spain, occupying the Christians and imposing severe discriminating laws against them ?
But oh, when the christians take their land, they are evil, they are bad...

The truth is that whenever muslims occupy christians, the christians undergo the law of a fascist government which forbids them to be have high ranks in society, which make them pay the punishment extorsion (jizia comes from the arabic word jazaa' which means punishment), they cannot even build new churches !!!!!!
Go to any islamic land, see if you find just one church which resonates the bell... on the other side, muslims don't bother asking for all the mosques to use speakers to call for islamic prayer 5 times a day..

This is the double face of islam.. we can invade you and occupy you, but you should not react, only submit.

La fleure de new york said :
"Too much insulting coming from someone believing in PEACE and the religion of TURN THE OTHER CHEEK."

Can you find any insult in what i said ? No, i never insulted you, don't lie about me.
What you said is right, i believe in peace, and i am here to show you how islam believes in violence. you get it now ?
You think peace is to shut up ? NO, we are not afraid to say the truth. Now if i show you how Jesus Christ clearly prophetized the false prophets to come, and the biggest one is Muhamd prophet of islam, will you say i insult ? This is in the bible and it is my duty to show you islam is the way to the satan.
Muslims are good people, but islamists hater are evil because they follow strictly quran and islam. This is why we challenge any muslim to find anything new that is good in islam, because there is absolutely nothing. Muhamd did break all of the 10 commandements one by one. But a regular muslim cannot understand this, he needs to go into deep studies to learn and get the knowledge.



For the muslims who go crazy by reading what I say, why are you scared ? Can't you answer anything ? We know it is hard to read the truth and to find out how islam and quran are based on mistakes, but the truth hurts, that's how it is. This is why you'd better attack me personally than discuss the behavior of your prophet, who married a 6 years old baby girl while he was more than 50, and he slept with her and she was 9... Would you give your 9 years old daughter to a 54 years old man ?

Peace of the Lord to all


10:05 pm    February 17, 2007

Paul Abbas message
40
Hey Adnane that is a wonderful testimony. I don't think that the supernatural wonder of God is something you necessarily can claim expertise in. It just sounds like God. The first time God touched me that I was aware of was a few days after I had been drinking with friends and I got somewhat sensually involved with a beautiful girl. She died a few days later in an auto accident. When my brother told me of her death, my world was rocked and I felt so ashamed of my lustful sinful ways. I finally couldn't handle the pain and guilt and just pulled over my car one night and cried out to God. The Lord somehow touched me. All I know was that the next day was one of the most happy peaceful days of my life. The unexplainable mystery of what the Bible calls "the peace that surpasses all understanding" that guards ones heart and mind is so wonderful. I began seeking God after that point because I did not have a grid in my history or family to put "that" God on. No one ever told me about a real and personal God. Later in graduate school I cried out under the conviction of my wrong standing before God "Lord be my backbone" and was spiritually reborn in Christ. I think God brought me that way to let me understand that I could have a wonderful spiritual experiences and still need to "get right" with God submitting myself to Him.

When I read your testimony I was reminded of a Bible story that I believe is somewhat under-esteemed by us western Christians concerning the Arab peoples. The Lord emphasized the story to me when I was feeling rejected and wanted to hear my Heavenly Father's voice of assurance like when He spoke over Jesus, "This is my beloved son in whom I am well-pleased!"

Anyway I saw the story of Abraham and his two sons Ishmael and Isaac in my imagination when I was praying. Ishmael had been born by Abraham and Sarah's scheme to fulfill the promise of God by natural means. Hagar bore Ishmael but God said that His promise would come super-naturally through Sarah's "dead" womb and Abraham's "as good as dead" body. Isaac was a super-naturally born child of promise. Hagar and Ishmael now had to live as a "no promise" natural result of Sarah and Abraham's mistaken unbelief. Tensions grew in the family and Hagar and Sarah came to be at odds. Ishmael felt the animosity and in some ways probably went along with his mother's hostility feeling rejected and somewhat unwanted and not legitimatized. Eventually it seemed that even God was against them when they were sent away by Abraham by the will of God even though Abraham loved Ishmael. The promise of God would come through Isaac. Now what about Ishmael?

To Hagar and Ishmael it must have seemed like they were destined to rejection and a worthless frustrated existence. Hagar and Ishmael went out into the desert wandering and Hagar was going to leave Ismael to die-- all seemed so hopeless. Then God stepped in.

Isaac was the child of promise that would bring linage to the Messiah, but God had one of the greatest promises in the Bible for Ishmael also! God has a promise for everyone!

Hagar was crying expecting death and futility. Verse 7 of Genesis 21 says "And God heard the voice of the lad." GOD saw and heard those crying and came and spoke directly to Hagar who was thinking she was just a miserable wreck. God (NOT an angel) called her by name and told her that He personally was going to make Ishmael into a great nation. God refreshed them in their wilderness.

Because the Scriptures came through the Jews and the Messiah came through the Jews a lot of people forget that God was multi-tasking with Ishmael and the Arabs! God Himself was making Ishmael into a great nation.

My name is Paul and my father's name is Paul and they used to call me little Pauly when I was young. I didn't like that much wanting to big and important. Then I found out that the name Paul actually means "little one" O great I am just a "little one" I thought! Then I found the promise to the "little one" in the Bible, Isaiah 60:22 says, "A little one shall be a thousand, and a small one a strong nation. I the Lord will hasten it in its time." God has big plans for little ones! My email tag AbbasPaul actually means "Daddy's little one."

I've never heard the voice of God audibly calling me by name. That must be awesome. He must have some kind of great plan for you. I don't believe that fasting and prayer earns a reward unless it is done secretly unto the Lord. But Jesus said that Father who is in the secret place sees the humble heart and rewards those who seek Him diligently.

May the Lord bless you!


10:00 pm    February 17, 2007

Adnane Ben. message
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37
Actually, the quest to find God or do whatever it takes to see him is something a spiritual person, in my opinion, ought to have seriousely considered at some point in their life. But soon, one would realize it's just impossible. or is it not?

Sufis have developped music trance and dance as a medium to connect with God as close as possible. You probably heard of the swirling dervishes who at some point get into a deep trance, stop feeling the ground underneath them or anything for that matter, and claim that it helps them connect with God. Go figure! I never tried it.

At any rate, and in all seriousness. I have come to the conclusion that religion, whether it is Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, is in essence about the subtle stuff. It's about when you question and review, as much as you humanly can, everything you do, say or think about. You're your own boss. Your boss is not Mr. Jesus, not Mr. Mohammed or other prophets, saints or the religious authority nextdoor. The day you tell yourself, hey now don't go around telling people that waitress had an attitude; or when you keep that used napkin in your pocket till you find a trashbag even if the roads are dirty or covered with snow; or when you stop yourself from telling yourself about someone's shortcomings.. yeah, I'm not even meaning you're talking to someone behind that person's back; yes, the day these things start happening to you, then you are practicing religion, you are scrutinizing yourself, you are plunging into the subtle stuff. I personally find Islam a religion that gives me that freedom and power to be my own boss. There is no religious human authority who scrutinizes, threathens or pardons me. And, I like the idea that I am not guaranteed pardon while i'm alive, and that I have to keep bringing the best in me.


10:13 am    February 17, 2007

Adnane Ben. message
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I know what you mean brother. People become very similar when they're stricken by an overwhelming problem. They get a sudden urge to pray, even the most distant from spirituality and religion. People become so similar, it's one of the most puzzling behaviours in my opinion. I think that is when they become human. No, make that: good human. As for encountering God, I cannot say for sure that I personally did, although I encountered something similar to what you described. I was sleeping once, it was Ramadan, and it was the last 5 days of the month. At dusk one night, I was deeply asleep, and suddenly heard the softest voice, so smooth and peaceful as it called my name just enough to wake me up, but not scare me. I have never ever heard that voice in my life, it was truely unbelievable. And the interesting thing for me is that I immediately convinced myself that it had to do with the divine. I went and cleaned up then prayed until dawn. As if God told the angels to wake him up. I would say it was God, but it felt like an angel. I'd like to believe that. That event gave me so much renewal, and even now when I feel depressed, I remember that night, and wish I can hear that soothing voice again. It gives me confidence, even if I am maybe all wrong in my interpretation, in my spirituality and my religious beliefs. If the angels voices alone are that POWERFUL in shaking up my entire body and soul while soothing and calming it, I cannot even imagine how they are like in person, let alone the heavens and God himself. I would say that we will not be able to handle God revealing himself to us while we are in our earthly form. And that is what the Quran says, when Moses asked God to reveal himself to him, God told him you won't be able to handle me, even the mountains crumbled to thought of God revealing himself, Moses fainted when the mountain crumbled.

I'd stick with the angels' voices for now :) and the voices of the wise and peaceful people.


10:48 pm    February 16, 2007

Paul Abbas message
37
Hudhud have you ever met the God of your Quran? I could just as well ask the Christian, have you ever met the God of your Bible?

One of the greatest Biblical writers is Saul the Jew who became Paul the Jewish Apostle to the Gentiles. The reason I bring him up is that in his testimony he said that according to the strictest adherence to the historic faith of his forefathers he practiced his Judaism. He said he was a premier example, a pharisee of pharisees studying under a famous teacher, Gamaliel. He was zealous for his Scripture and religion and even went so far as to persecute and imprison the new "sect" of Christians. He even approved of the stoning of the first Christian martyr, Stephen. But...

But on one of his zealous missions the Lord Jesus appeared to him and knocked him to the ground with the power of the Glory of God. Paul met Jesus, was blinded for a season, restored and filled with the Holy Spirit. He was transformed by the Glory of Christ. The rest is Bible history.

Paul emphasized that a supernatural personal encounter with Jesus is part of the Gospel or good news. People can encounter God!

I grew up a religious churchgoer among religious churchgoers. Christianity was a cultural expression of religious activity with no real relationship with God- no answers to prayer, no miracles, nothing to express a living and powerful God like the God described in the Bible. When I was confronted with a tragic death I cried out to a God not even knowing if He was real. He touched me supernaturally and I began to seek Him and eventually cried out to Him and was born again in a powerful way. There is a huge difference between knowing about God and knowing God. The knowledge of God comes through a vital relationship with Him. John 17:3 says, "This is everlasting life to know the one true God and Jesus Christ whom He has sent." The Gospel is about knowing God for real. Paul had a religion but knew not God.

Nicodemus (John 3) was a teacher and leader in Israel but Jesus told him that he must be born again if he was to see or enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. Nicodemus had the right Scripture and the right position and a pious and religious life, but he knew not God, loving religious darkness rather than the light. The light exposes darkness and that is somewhat scary.

I know that I had to forsake my "Christian" upbringing to follow the living Christ. But Jesus revealed Himself to me when I was lost going to church calling myself a Christian.

The apostle Paul mentioned that he saw lights and heard voices when Jesus appeared to him. That sounds crazy, but that is the Gospel. Paul also said satan comes as an angel of light, masquerading. God and the devil are both supernatural. We need to meet God.

I had an encounter with God where I heard the voice of the Lord as described in the Bible as a "voice of many waters." I didn't not see anything but the voice that gushed with power like a waterfall spoke and commanded me, "Follow me, or don't follow me." Jesus wants us to know and follow Him?

I talk to people of many religious persuasions. Many seem like religious robots programmed to say this and do that. (Some of the most mechanical and powerless claim Christianity!) Often I ask, "Have you ever met your Jesus? (Jehova, Allah, or Buddha) All the religious talk usually dies at that question because most religious people have never had a personal encounter with their God. Some that have have only met a demon masquerading as God.

Have you ever met Him?
If so, what is He like?

Oftentimes I challenge people to cry out to God and ask Him to reveal Himself in truth to them. You would think people would want to encounter God. I find that most people instead would rather be husbanded by the religion that they have been taught and know with security rather than call out to a God they know not in reality.

I believe that the mystery of the unknown God is that He wants to reveal Himself... in power.


9:31 am    February 16, 2007

hudhud message
36
35

"i dont see that in the quran"

You will see only that which you want to see.

"Prey on" is the right term to use when poor people are manipulated and blinded by material things.


9:47 pm    February 15, 2007
rose
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Oh paul! thank God you came in at the right time! it humbles me that you have the wisdom to centralise and discard our arguments. so many things in here i wanted to reply to but i just thought it would end up like a huge mind map of rebuttals and accusations. i have to admit to the muslims that i AM ignorant of many of the things that happened in history, but i know my Bible. and its teachings are pure. i dont see that in the quran. i also looked up Luke 22:3-4 in my Bible and its a completely different subject. maybe you got ur reference mixed up la fleure.. i dont know. theres nothing about swords at all! ..infact!!:

"While Jesus was still speaking a crowd came up. The man named Judas was leading them. He was one of the Twelve. Judas approached Jesus to kiss him. But Jesus asked him, 'Judas, are you handing over the Son of Man with a kiss?'
Jesus followers saw what was going to happen. so they said, Lord should we use our swords against them? One of them struck the servant with of the high priest and cut off his right ear.
But Jesus answered 'Stop this!' and He touched the mans ear and healed him.
Then Jesus spoke to the cheif priests, the officers of the temple guard, and the elders. They had all come for him. 'Am i leading a band of armed men against you?' he asked. 'Do you have to come to me with swords and clubs? Every day i was with you in the temple courts and you didn't lay a hand on me. But this is your hour. when darkness rules.' "
(Luke 22:47-53)

be sure that Christianity is no religion. and it doesnt coincide with other religions (yet it still brings healing and forgiveness to their people). Jesus (in Luke 22!) replies, after they ask Him "are you the son of God?", "You are right in saying that i am." (v70) im in no doubt that our lovely muslims respect Jesus as a prophet. but they dont agree with Christianity. so how can they fully respect it? even though i know most respect me. :)!!!

ps..beycam. you insult me when you say that missionaries prey on "your" poor and needy. if they want to prey on people there are plenty of dafties like me with more (money?) to offer right under their noses. and plenty of bad leaders to join who are already at it. moroccos not the best place to set up church and play games. it remains too closed to accept christianity along the high street. :x! but remember i said i know the country more than you think.

pps. sorry if i offend ppl too. i just want to defend what i love. Bless you all.


11:49 pm    February 14, 2007

Paul Abbas message
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I would like to pose a question? Are not almost all religious arguments seeking to establish "which" or "whose" religion is pure or right? It seems to me that the "which" and "whose" are all about historic traditions and cultural pride and religious arguments tend to battle back and forth like a war or (when they are more friendly) like a soccer match. Would it not be more productive to seek God's point of view concerning purity and righteousness rather than our own. It seems to me one must be willing to forsake all self-justifications before arriving at the justice of God. All religions are based in eternity and the afterlife. History and nationalities are subject to eternity so it seems illogical that history or nationality determine eternal justifications or God's righteousness. The big question is how can a human being who has broken any of God's eternal laws stand before an eternally pure and righteous God and be justified? All religions have law and judgment included in their paradigms. No person guilty of a crime can claim innocence. No guilt is erased by good deeds. One who murders cannot change the fact that he is a murderer by helping old ladies? If justice is such that the guilty must be punished, how can any human being stand before a pure and righteous judge and not be punished eternally for his breaking of the laws of God? Any religion must answer this question? If there is no answer to this question we all are going to be damned eternally. Does God have an answer? Which God answers the question of eternal justification for mankind. I believe that God is the true God. Ones religion must have answers that exceed cultural and historic arguments. Petty questions can have petty humanistic answers. What about the question of eternal justification? The answer would need an answer from eternity from God Himself. Can your religion whether Jewish, Christian or Muslim provide an answer to the question of eternal justification? And can you explain the answer in simple and logical terms such that a child could understand. All religion is a hollow nutshell without an answer! Or are you afraid of discussing eternal judgment? Talking about historic and national and religious issues can be the greatest distraction from more important eternal issues that effect us all. All of our lives are but a vapor in the view of eternity.

9:43 am    February 14, 2007
beycam2000
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so after all that's been said, y'all christians trying to pray on our neediest and convert them to your corrupt and distorted religion, BEWARE, because we aren't going to stand silent, and each one of us will do his best, ie from heart to sword, to stop anyone who is commiting this genocide against our religion, ASSALAMOU ALAYKOUM.

8:22 am    February 14, 2007
lafleure
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Remember the Andalous and how Muslims, Jews and Christians co-existed but at the end Christians BY THE SWORD sent muslims and jews back to north africa or the middle east. Those who chose to stay in Andalous (South of Spain) were forced to renounce their muslim faith, Mosques were destroyed. Could you tell me if there still exists old Mosques in any European or western country that survived for centuries like the coptic churches in Egypt or any other churches in other Muslim countries where christians lived for centuries with their muslim neighbors? I already know the answer. NO. Stop blaming Islam for your poor understanding and for your ignorance of the fact. Do not be misled by politics and interests, Islam is a pure religion of hope, peace, respect and human transcendency.

8:04 am    February 14, 2007
lafleure
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21
I could not continue reading your comment because it is distorting to read such things as Ass, Body in river, Muslims are ignorant and selfish... Too much insulting coming from someone believing in PEACE and the religion of TURN THE OTHER CHEEK. You are a bad PR for christianity. Just do not offend people so that they show you some respect at least. No matter what our differences are, we are all 3ibad Allah and we are all sinful and wrongdoers. So stop judging and prosecuting people who do not agree with you. Allah Yehdik lil Islam and to the Submission to Allah. We are proud that we submit to Allah and not to other human beings. Allahomma Ighfir li wa lakom wa hdini li tariq ilmostaqim

7:46 am    February 14, 2007
lafleure
30
I believe in christianity, in Judaism and all prophets and messengers (Adam, Noah, Abraham,...) sent by Allah to save us all from sins, and by the way, I am not the only ones, all Muslims do because those were the teachings of Allah and Prophet Mohamed (Peace Be Upon Him). You guys have to believe that we do not hate Jesus or Moses because Allah and prophet Mohamed (Peace Be Upon Him) taught us to love and respect both religions (lakom dinokom wa li dini).

The problem lies in the fact that Jews did not like prophet Jesus (Peace Be Upon Him) because he was taking power from them while they believed they were the chosen people, Christians do not like prophet Mohamed (Peace Be Upon Him) and Islam for different reasons. But Allah chose to send different prophets to correct people's understanding of His messages. You have to believe that prophet Mohamed (PBUH) is the last messenger of Allah and that his coming never reduced the teachings of Moses or Jesus (original teachings and not the distorted scriptures). There is a continuity, that's why there are lots of similarities between these main three religions. Anyway, about violence in Christianity:

this is a passage from an article written by David Bivin from Jerusalem School. You should read the bible and find out about christianity instead of building your faith by contradicting christianity to Islam. That's not how faith is acquired. The quote says:

"But did Jesus teach that it is wrong to defend oneself against attack? Did he really mean that we should not resist evil? Such a view seems to contradict what we read elsewhere in the Bible. In Romans 12:9, for example, Paul says that one should ?hate what is evil,? and in James 4:7 we read that we are to ?resist the devil.? It is clear from passages in Luke 22 that Jesus? disciples were armed,[3] and Jesus himself advised them to purchase swords.[4]"

May Allah guide you to the right path.


3:55 pm    February 13, 2007

Adnane Ben. message
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28
"Ma kaina la taqia wala Taguia."

Hahahaha, you made me laugh mon! I really love the Moroccan Taguia, such artifact! Interesting enough, those who wear Taguia happen to be some of the most humble, wise and composed people. I wonder what's in their Taguia besides shebb wel 7armel?


3:33 pm    February 13, 2007

Antr McShaddad (Yahia.L) message
28
"Taqia" is a Shia concept that the sunnis consider as a fraud.

Just read the Quran, and see for yourself how many times the liers and hypocrits have been warned.
When you are in doubt, the Quran remains the best of the references.

Ma kaina la taqia wala Taguia.


3:14 pm    February 13, 2007

Adnane Ben. message
27
26
I did roll up my DSL sleeves, stretched my digital arms high up in the air, and prayed for more understanding and wisdom for all mankind! hehehe,.. it felt good!

1:59 pm    February 13, 2007

Antr McShaddad (Yahia.L) message
26
23
Many hadiths and accounts said about the prophet (peace be upon him) were/are false. Hasn't Bukhari (One scholar among many) rejected some 40.000 (?) fabricated hadiths ? You should not forget that he came 200 years after the death of the prophet, so there was enough time to build up all kind of discrepancies.
All the previous prophets had false stories made about them anyways. just check the different versions of the bible.
So would the link lead to a Saudi or Chinese website, it does not make the accounts reliable, especially when they are contradicting the teachings of the Quran.(the only authentic document)

I don't need to remind you that rape as well as homosexuality are not permitted in the Quran. Just because a "Muslim" committed a crime, that doesn't make Islam a religion designed for criminals. That would be as naive as calling Christianity the religion of pedophiles, because some priests got caught molesting children.
Or a religion of supremacy because of the KKK or Adolf Hitler, Stalin etc...
Don't mix up the human behavior with the teachings of a religion, any religion !

The Prophet was trading with Christians and Jews alike, and some were his neighbors. So Islam is a religion of tolerance, no twisted allegations are permitted.
The tax imposed on none-Muslims back then, was not paid as a bribe for practicing their faith, but rather as compensation for not serving in the army, protection for Crusading armies and tribal warfare.

And finally, I would have no benefit in attacking you, but I find you emotionally perturbed, because you are showing no tolerance towards other people's religion in this forum, while they are showing tolerance towards your agressive attitude.
My advice to you is to clean yourself from hate, and find peace withing yourself first, before reaching out to any religion, I have Christian friends, and none of them is as self-centered as you sound.

Maybe Raioosters should stretch their digital hands in the air and pray for you (:^/

Be cool !




12:17 am    February 13, 2007
Laila
25
19
Dear Rose,
I just had a little comment about how Islam spread...Let us not forget:
- St. Bartholomew Massacre (French war between the Protestants and Catholics) 1562-1598.
- The crusades: 1095-1291 (and more during the 16th century.)
- The Spanish Inquisition: 15th century.
...to name a few...
Every religion/culture/people has its own dark part in history...
Have a great night.

11:39 pm    February 12, 2007

Adnane Ben. message
24
23
The verses that you quoted are not translated properly. And if you're a knowledgeable person about the bible, you know that if someone quoted the bible without citing the exact events and story behind that quote, it might easily be used out of context.

The word friends is not the correct translation. The original arabic word in the verse is "awliya", plural for 'wali', meaning patron, protector and even leader. So, the verse does not tell muslims to not befriend non-muslims. It told muslims to stay together when shit hits the fan, and not disperse around the land looking for non-muslim communities to protect them. If they stick together they can think together and work together to resolve their fears or protect themselves. This is human behaviour 101. christians stick with each other, jews stick with each other, not out of some sort of racism or tribalism, but just an expression of bonding with each other. In fact, that verse was revealed after this battle when Muslims were overwhelmed, and some started considering fleeing to adjacent non-muslim communities to seek protection in case Medina is attacked.

You can see, if you are willing to have an open mind, that you have used the verse out of context, and tried to spin it a la Fox News, to basically say Islam forbids us from having christians and jews as friends.

Hear me, isn't marriage a wonderful decision based on love and friendship? doesn't islam allow us to marry a christian or jewish woman? and if islam forbids us to befriend christians and jews, why would it allow us to marry them if we need to befriend and love them beforehand?

I hope that next time you consider a different approach to debate. Try not to reply with the style of throwing quran verses out of context, and jumping to conclusions. You are encouraged to quote the quran, but just make sure you're doing it intelligently and with good faith and intentions. Isn't it that the best of debates is the one where your intentions are sincere, and you wouldn't mind through which party the truth comes out? this what islam teaches us, never start a debate willing that you are holding the ultimate truth.

Cheers.


9:48 pm    February 12, 2007
Morocco for Jesus
23
22
Salam Laila. labas 3Lik

Honestly, I did not want to go there, but as long as you accuse my interpretation, I just want to remind you, I did not interpret anything, I just read islamic books.
If i do not interpret well, please interpret for me then :

Sura 5 verse 51 :

[51] O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors; they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.


Sura 3 verse 28 :

[28] Let not the Believers take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than Believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (to remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah.


How can you be friend with someone who Allah curses ?
Didn't you know that Allah curses us because we believe in the Son of God ?

Sura 9 verse 30

[30] The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Al-Masih the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the Unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

And this is a bad and soft translation, the real translation doesn't say "curse them", but "Allah fights them" (qatalahom allah)

Laila, as long as you are willing to speak about interpretation, this is the official sunni tafseer (explanation) by the big imam ibn katheer. My comments will be preceded by >> :


http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=5&tid=14082

The Prohibition of Taking the Jews, Christians and Enemies of Islam as Friends

Allah forbids His believing servants from having Jews and Christians as friends, because they are the enemies of Islam and its people, may Allah curse them. Allah then states that they are friends of each other and He gives a warning threat to those who do this

>> Read carefully the story behind it :


Ibn Abi Hatim recorded that `Umar ordered Abu Musa Al-Ash`ari to send him on one sheet of balance the count of what he took in and what he spent. Abu Musa then had a Christian scribe, and he was able to comply with `Umar's demand. `Umar liked what he saw and exclaimed, "This scribe is proficient. Would you read in the Masjid a letter that came to us from Ash-Sham'' Abu Musa said, `He cannot.'' `Umar said, "Is he not pure'' Abu Musa said, "No, but he is Christian.'' Abu Musa said, "So `Umar admonished me and poked my thigh (with his finger), saying, `Drive him out (from Al-Madinah).'
He then recited, (O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as friends...)'' Then he reported that `Abdullah bin `Utbah said, "Let one of you beware that he might be a Jew or a Christian, while unaware.''


>> You can see how injust this is. The poor Christian was kicked out just because of his religion. This is pure NAZISM before time.
Let's continue the muslim interpretation:


http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=5&tid=14148

The Prohibition of Being Loyal Friends with Disbelievers

This Ayah discourages and forbids taking the enemies of Islam and its people, such as the People of the Book and the polytheists, as friends. These disbelievers mock the most important acts that any person could ever perform, the honorable, pure acts of Islam which include all types of good for this life and the Hereafter. They mock such acts and make them the subject of jest and play, because this is what these acts represent in their misguided minds and cold hearts.

>> You see how Quran injustly accuses us to mock you, this is a lie against us. We have initially no reason to mock anybody, why islam needs to accuse everybody to be a hater, like here :


Sura 3 verse 118

[118] O ye who believe! take not into your intimacy those outside your ranks: they will not fail to corrupt you. They only desire your ruin: rank hatred has already appeared from their mouths: what their hearts conceal is far worse. We have made plain to you the Signs, if ye have wisdom.


>> This is a false accusation against us, why the quran needs to call us haters, is it to justify your hate against us ?

>> How can we hate you if we are commanded by Christ to Love you ?


Laila, you will see that all these are muslim sunni 100% approved explanations. These are not wahhabi explanations, these are the earliest hadith collected. Ibn Katheer explanation is a kind of summary for the earlier Tabary explanation, who says the exact same thing.

When used to be muslim like you, I used to think these explanations were false and I tried to find all kinds of justifications to hide the evil of the book. And there are much more verses inciting hate and persecution of christians and jewish people, including fighting them to death.

Let me tell you something : you have the sources, go check it out yourself, make your researches. You can search any official tafseer, and you will see by yourself.

And this is an authentic "saheeh" hadith to finish the point about friendship with non muslims:

Muslim recorded from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet said :
"Do not initiate the Salam to the Jews and Christians, and if you meet any of them in a road, force them to its narrowest alley."

In arabic for you :
جَاءَ فِي صَحِيح مُسْلِم عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَة رَضِيَ اللَّه عَنْهُ أَنَّ النَّبِيّ صَلَّى اللَّه عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ قَالَ " لَا تَبْدَءُوا الْيَهُود وَالنَّصَارَى بِالسَّلَامِ وَإِذَا لَقِيتُمْ أَحَدهمْ فِي طَرِيق فَاضْطَرُّوهُمْ إِلَى أَضْيَقه "

http://quran.al-islam.com/Tafseer/DispTafsser.asp?l=arb&taf=KATHEER&nType=1&nSora=9&nAya=29

From the same sura commanding to fight and persecute all jews and christians


Peace of the Lord to all


8:15 pm    February 12, 2007
Laila
22
12
Dear Sir,
I just read our post until where you said that the Quran forbids muslims for taking non-Muslims as friends and protectors...Let me tell you Sir that you have a very wrong interpretation of the Quran... I am a Muslim and my top 5 best friends are actually Christians... I live in the U.S. and I enjoy being here, learning about life here and making great friends.
Religion has nothing to do with the facts that some people are fanatic or act badly... If we were to blame Christianity for every wrong doing a Christian made...well...let's just keep it at that...
It makes me very sad to see people who find comfort in jumping into conclusions and generalizing some facts, and it always happens when someone wants to gratify themselves... I used to be offended by comments like these...but now I understand that there are people who are simply ignorant of things around them, but that's ok..what is scary is when people know they are ignorant and refuse to learn...
So please, like I try to learn as much as I can about my own religion and my friends' beliefs I hope you will do the same and avoid hiding behind irrational explanations that you drive from things you do not know much about.
I hope that you will not take offense in what I am saying because I do not mean so.
Have a great day,
Laila.

10:14 pm    February 11, 2007
Morocco for Jesus
21
20
Hi all


I will quickly answer some of the allegations here

Adnan, you said :
"Where do you live in Morocco? I'm pretty sure you can practice your religion there freely. Did anyone harrass you?"

First of all, as long as you asked me "where i do live", it means that you know that if i lived in the west, i would have the freedom i would NEVER have in any islamic country, because islam do not give us ANY freedom and no muslim can even express his views in an islamic country. Thank you for being honest. But let me tell you we christians are not muslims, we are not egoist.

We don't only think about our own comfort. Muslims who live in the west are not muslims, according to sura 5 verse 51 and sura 3 verse 28 which forbids any muslim to take non muslims as friends and protectors, including government and paying taxes to the kafirs.

You will ask me : how come muslims still live in the west then ? Well you know the concept of Taqia, a muslim can lie to any non muslim to protect his faith, which is what most muslims are doing now by saying "islam is peace", and islam is NOT peace, peace is salam, islam means submitted, when you surrender after being encircled by the enemy at war, Muhamad used to say "aslimo taslamo", become muslim, you will be in peace, because if you DONT accept islam, i will wage war on you, this is the whole concept of Jihad, read sura 9 verses 5, 29, 73, and 123.

Sura 9 is one of the last revealed suras and this is why it abrogated (literally deletes) all the previous suras calling for peace (read sura 2 verse 106 which says allah changes his verses and bring new ones, also read islamic theology about nasikh and mansoukh, verses which abrogates, and verses that are abrogated

Last thing, yes I live in Morocco, because we are going to change the mentalities and system in our country, we will make the people smarter and more respectful of everyone's right.

Look at the style of muslims :
"you know better than that, a whole lot more and more christians are leaving your sorry ass religion"

ALLAH in the quran, when he said "i will bring down the INJIL (Gospel) and i protect the books i send. So when you say it is an ass religion, do you mean your ALLAH is an ass too ? He is the one who sent Jesus !
Christians, you will see how muslims are double faced : They claim they respect Jesus, but they insult christianity, they hate and persecute christians all over the world.
Mohammad just used the name Jesus (actually he used the name Issa, which is simply Esau in the bible, which is "the cursed one", this is how jews called names at Jesus, because Mohammad was so ignorant that he didn't know Jesus in arabic is Yasoo3, which means God saves)

This kid also said :
"Just be aware that you're not gonna be successful, and most probably, we'll find your body on the shore of one of the rivers of Rabat, or some jungle by Marrakech, not so worth it."

Now this is a direct death threat, because muslims when they want to follow their sunna, they behave as animals, and that simply confirms what I said earlier, their prophet said "KILL ALL those who leave islam"
Let me tell you that we have a billion times greater faith than yours, we are not scared to expose Muhammad and Quranic's lies and you will never be able to touch one of my hair because you are just a big mouth.

And Adnan, don't fall into relativism, i CHALLENGE you to find me where Jesus said "kill the ex christian" can you ?

This is what your prophet said :
" Narrated 'Ikrima:

Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'WHOEVER CHANGED HIS ISLAMIC RELIGION, THEN KILL HIM.'"

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/084.sbt.html

Are you going to tell me this is jewish website again ? This is MSA, the Muslim Student Association of University of South Caifornia, who translated ALL the authentic narration of Muhammad. Are they all liars too ?

Adnan, just to answer one last thing you said :
"Love is not the answer to everything. In fact, love can be intoxicating to the mind luring it into making unreasonable decisions."

Who said love is the answer to everything ? No it's not ! Some people, especially some of the muslims who will post after I posted cannot even understand what love is because they are brainwashed. Did you read the bible or you just try to make things up to dilute the topic ? Jesus said "The one who lives by the Sword will perish by the Sword" It is very clear, this is a legitimate defense commandement. Those who believe a christian can watch a muslim rape his wife and just pray without acting are just cowards. Jesus didn't teach us to be coward, in fact Jesus said "don't show the pearls in front of Swines"

This is not about discussing the bible because it deserves a whole new thread. To explain the bible to muslims, you have to understand that muslims are so blinded by the quran that they will never even listen to you. You first have to show them the numerous mistakes, grammatical mistakes, scientific, historic, logic mistakes, for them to wake up.

Let me give you an example : Someone who has cancer, it is will be nice for him to know it, he will be indeed very depressed. Nevertheless, it is mandatory in order for him to act and save himself.
The muslims have a big problem : Islam defends itself with the Sword not the Word, while we christians can make a whole islamic nation go crazy just because of the word. The pope said a historical fact "Mohammad didn't bring anything new which is good", and this is indeed true, all Muhammad did was steal scriptures from old books to make his own compilation, and he ordered every one who disagrees with it to be KILLED, this can be found in the quran, in the hadith, in the Sira (life of muhamad) and even in the tafaseer (explanations of quran).

How do the muslims react ? They kill people (more than 90 killed just in Nigeria), they burn churches, they shout their hate against the whole west...

If a simple criticism shatters a whole nation, isn't it because islam is so fragile and weak, and because the onlyh reason it has been able to survive so far is ignorance of the crowds (islamic nations beat all percentages of illiteracy) and the direct terrorist orders found in the islamic scriptures ?


One last thing, you can see guys how these so called muslims are just low class people. As soon as I start talking about quran and islam, they miserably try to put me down:

"so don't pick up a couple of gay moroccans not sure of their identity and their destinies, and spent a couple hundred thousand dollars on them and and a lame website"

First of all, i am a REAL moroccan, i am an AMAZIGH, a berber, an authentic inhabitant of North Africa, which was savagely invaded by arab muslims commanded by the warlord 3o9ba bnu nafe3, and who killed and tortured thousands of my people.

Second, I am not gay, and according to Jesus, Gays go to hell, are you happy ?
Third, the website I posted is the NUMBER ONE islamic website in the world, it's not a website, it's a GOVERNEMNT Saudi official reference, and you can even get a visa to go to hajj from that reference, let me post it again, and you will see that only the blind ignorants will think that indeed this is not a 100% halal website : www.al-islam.com
If you don't like the saudi official website, I can give you the JORDANIAN government official website for explaning the quran www.altafsir.com , now you have no more lame excuse to hide from false allegations

And now what about if I show you that your own prophet, Muhammad was gay !
Tell me : what do you think of a man who kisses little babies by SUCKING their TONGUES and LIPS.
is he a pervert, a maniac ? Can he be called prophet of God ?

This is the hadith, and I CHALLENGE you to translate it in front of the room

رَأَيْتُ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ ‏ ‏صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ ‏ ‏يَمُصُّ لِسَانَهُ ‏ ‏أَوْ قَالَ شَفَتَهُ ‏ ‏يَعْنِي ‏ ‏الْحَسَنَ بْنَ عَلِيٍّ ‏ ‏صَلَوَاتُ اللَّهِ عَلَيْهِ ‏ ‏وَإِنَّهُ ‏ ‏لَنْ يُعَذَّبَ لِسَانٌ أَوْ شَفَتَانِ مَصَّهُمَا رَسُولُ اللَّهِ ‏ ‏صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ

http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?Doc=6&Hnum=16245

From the book of ahmad, the good (hassan) and trusting hadith, therefore no excuse and no running away

And there are many, many other references, he used to wear his wife clothes, he used to put make up, he used to kiss men while he's naked, and worst of all, he used to HAVE a gay man LIVING in his house ...


Sorry to be a little harsh sometimes, but keep in mind I never lie (i cannot lie according to Jesus), the truth may hurt, but it is better knowing it earlier than later,
and remember "give me your fruits, I will tell you who you are"...

Peace of the Lord to all


8:34 pm    February 11, 2007

Adnane Ben. message
20
19
I yet have to verify what opinion, if any, Islam has on Muslims who leave it. I would think that they are free to do as they wish.

Love is not the answer to everything. In fact, love can be intoxicating to the mind luring it into making unreasonable decisions. Not to mention when one is in love, intentionally or unintentionally, with the wrong entity or under wrong terms. Now that would be such a waste of time loving something instead of another or nothing for that matter. Yet, moderation is transcending. One cannot say I'm moderate about the wrong thing. you can be moderate about loving someone, or giving charity, or moderate in spending time with someone as opposed to another, moderate about sleep, food or work, moderate about being nice to enemies, moderate about children disciplining. Moderate about practicing a religion, or moderate about expressing differences with another religion. Moderateness is a wonderful way of life. And Islam in my opinion encapsulates moderateness.


6:09 pm    February 11, 2007
rose
19
18
wow this debate really stirs now. i say that islam restricts freedom of religion when it is fully in place as sharia. when this happens its punishable by death for a muslim to leave it. anyway. this is about morocco. i still see the threat of this there however.
and i think that moderation in my faith would lead to its eventual distinguishing. what if we were all full of love! moderation isnt the key. but love is! correct me if im wrong.

5:51 pm    February 11, 2007

Adnane Ben. message
18
17
rose, nobody has the right to call you blonde prostitute. It's uncalled for. And yes we have prostitutes in Morocco unfortunately. But seriousely now, islam does not restrict the freedom of religion. Can someone correct me please, or have I been wrong all my life about Islam's tolerance towards other religions? Christians, Jews and others have lived under muslim governments especially in Morocco with total respect. i'm pretty sure almost every major city in Morocco has at least one cathedral and one synagogue.

Also, i just want to say that it's amazing how moderate people of any religion realize how they have a tremendous deal in common. Sometimes, one should ask themselves whether they're staying in the moderate sphere, or are skewing towards the extreme or negligeant ends. I find that humanity has stronger luck and highest probablity of survival and good life if everyone is moderate in their spirituality or lack of.

Ahhh.. moderateness! the magic wand.


5:27 pm    February 11, 2007
rose
17
16
look up the history of how islam spread in maroc. it was the arabs who came and invaded. moroccans were all berber christians after missionaries came and spread the Word through the pagan nation. i wouldnt be surprised if many were martyred. THEN islam came as usual by the sword and wiped out anyone who wouldnt convert. chidren were ripped away from their parents and people were slaughtered.

i have no problem with people improving their lifestyle. but i laugh at the fact that you stereotype us as blonde prostitutes. i know maroc more than you think and i know how the moroccans act. i know how many prostitutes linger in your clubs and i just wonder why they are so regular. ive had much shallow male attention from the morccans. so dont get me wrong. I LOVE MOROCCO. but! if islam is so wonderful, why does it have to restrict freedom of religion ... surely walls or no walls people would still stay. ps.. when people insult my God i let Him deal with them. Jesus told us to love.


3:55 pm    February 11, 2007
beycam2000
16
Jesus is alive, no doubt, and very ashamed of what y'all are doing that's for sure, and to say that our faith needs to be reviewed, I tell you what, our faith is stronger than what you might think, because we stand against those who violate our deerest aspect, our religion, standing against those shows we are doing what we're supposed to be doing, and not bounding to their lame excuses, violence came from them first, we don't use violence or threats, but if someone rape us in our religion, they better know that we warned them first, we don't go to their countries, and pray on the poorest and neediest, then tell them that Mohammed PEACE BE UPON HIM gave them that food, our religion spreads like smooth air in heaven, we don't need to go to your places and spread it, and I know it hurts to wake up one day and see your blonde gorgeous friend that once was a prostitute suddenly with a hijab, OOps she just converted, I'm sure it hurts to see them change for the best, but that's exactly what you're fighting against, so don't tell me that " I live on violence that I've been taught" Ms Scotland, because I'm standing here to defend my religion, and make sure to not allow yourself to step on others toes so that you can spread your lame ass ideas, welcome to all those " empty westerners" who came back to their mother religion, that no GOD BUT ALLAH, and MOHAMMED IS HIS FINAL MESSENGER.

11:17 pm    February 10, 2007

Adnane Ben. message
15
13
Too many threats, it cannot come from a spiritual person. Spirituality, wether christianity, judaism, islam, hinduism, buddhism, never makes such threats. So I'd say, in sincere advise, review your spirituality.

4:39 pm    February 10, 2007
rose
14
13
Jesus is alive and working in the hearts of his people. no hate can stop them. their bodies can be slaughtered but their faith cannot. vicious insults and death threats only reflect the core of a mans heart. as the eyes are the gateway into the soul, so the tounge is the expression of it. so dont be afraid- this beycam must have fed on a hate filled doctrine. and now he regurgitates what he was taught and lives by. the money flowing (if it is so) will come from people like us.. who are just as rich and poor as you all. do you not tithe to see islam spread and provided for? so? may we not do the same? and dont forget that if you come to our country we are providing for islam even. (why?!! equal rights maybe?) AND christians must pay full tax for buildings, but many mosques were actually payed for by our tax money! and are tax free!
do we yearn for your religion? i stand in faith sir, you can count me out. infact. please count for me who is in? where did you find your statistics? i know many empty westeners are joining islam, but oh look how the world turns to face the Son! He rose so high above any other man... that noone can fight Him and win. its by grace that christians turn to our God. so give them some freedom to think and stop caging them like animals.
shoot the life from one proclaiming and his message only lives longer.

1:46 pm    February 10, 2007
beycam2000
13
you know damn well how much money those evangelists have flowting in their hands, and you know damn well too how eager and hungry for our fine and perfect religion ISLAM they are, so don't pick up a couple of gay moroccans not sure of their identity and their destinies, and spent a couple hundred thousand dollars on them and and a lame website, and start telling me that "more and more moroccans are joining the lord", you know better than that, a whole lot more and more christians are leaving your sorry ass religion and are joining the truth, the message of ISLAM, and by the way, don't sit there and trash our prophet, because you know how we'll find you and do to your throat, so if you are trying to convert us, just be aware that you're not gonna be successful, and most probably, we'll find your body on the shore of one of the rivers of Rabat, or some jungle by Marrakech, not so worth it.

5:12 pm    February 9, 2007

Adnane Ben. message
12
11
Where do you live in Morocco? I'm pretty sure you can practice your religion there freely. Did anyone harrass you? I'm just interested to know, because if that was the case you have the right to take them to court.

You also know well that the verses you quoted from the Quran speak to specific stories and events, no need to frame them and spin them around.


11:52 pm    February 8, 2007
Morocco for Jesus
11
Actually there are more and more Moroccans who follow the Lord who revealed himself into the glory of Jesus, the perfect being.

You have to understand that talking about this is not easy because the prophet of islam said "the one who leaves islam, kill him", because islam is not mere a religion but a cult where you are emprisoned, brainwashed, and you cannot leave, this is why there is no freedom of thinking in Morocco. Actually there is a little bit, because we are not applying sharia law, the most injust law ever that states christians are to be humiliated (sura 9 verse 29) and the man can beat his wife if she doesn't strictly obey him (sura 4 verse 34)

It is not easy to talk to a muslim, a real one (not the one who claims to be, because most moroccans have no idea what islam is about), because he will always think an ex muslim like is either : a jew, a zionist, a crusader, a satan, a liar, a kafer, a dirt (sura 9 verse 28 calls all christians and pagans dirty, this is why muslims cannot shake hands and say salam to non believers, for the curious people interested in knowledge, this is the official explanation of the quran in english http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=9&tid=20986 )

I think it is really sad the west allows the muslims to build mosques, where they often preach hate (especially in Paris and London), but this west doesn't care about us, the christians in Morocco, who are opporessed by this injust law directly derived from sharia. We cannot build new churches, we cannot speak about Jesus (who muslims claim is a prophet, while issa is the translation of esau, which means Cursed, while Jesus in arabic is Yasoo3), we cannot even have a cross around our neck in the streets !!!

This is just to show that islam is not about convincing, but about terrorizing. I can speak like this for years, because muslims are scared to debate people like me. We perfectly know the quran, the tafseer, the hadith, the sunna, the fi9h, but also the gospel, the bible and we can challenge anyone on them, even though muslims claim bible is corrupted, which contredicts the quran asking the muslims to get their knowledge from the people of the book sura 10:94

Please do not think I hate anyone, the one who hate is the one who said "don't take jews and christians as friends and protectors, sura 5 verse 51" not me. Or kill the ex muslim, and here are the sources in arabic from the official islamic website number 1
http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?Doc=0&Rec=4754
http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?hnum=3175&doc=1&IMAGE=%DA%D1%D6+%C7%E1%CD%CF%ED%CB

I would be glad to discuss about any issue with a Moroccan brother who is ready for a nice dialogue here MoroccoForJesus@gmail.com

Peace of the Lord to all


7:05 am    January 21, 2007
Tarik
10
8
There are two Catholic churches in Rabat - the main Cathedral downtown and one in the suburb of Rabat-Agdal. Both are easy to get to and very welcoming to newcomers.

8:53 pm    January 16, 2007
rose
9
1
i dont think it a scary thing at all that we want to share our knowledge of the saving power of Christ with morrocans. as a christian i believe more than anything else in my life that God sent Jesus to save us from our sins. i feel that if christians who knew this did nothing to tell others about it then that in fact would be the scariest thing. how can it be so wrong to offer love and help and a message of hope to needy people? if we came in by the sword to take land and power then that would be atrocious. but these people risk THEIR lives to give whatever they can to help others. i commend them. x

1:05 am    January 13, 2007
john
8
6
Hello, this is john from dahaka, bangladesh planing to visit Casalblanca and rabat. I would like know many Christan and specially roman catholic in morocco. Address of Cathocic churchs in Rabat

12:38 am    November 11, 2006
Haleem
7
1
I feel that people need to have freedom of conscience; such as, the right to adhere to whatever religion they chose. This is basic human tolerance.

10:29 pm    May 17, 2006
Mac
6
1
Yes,

Morocco has a Large Christian Community.

_Roman Catholic Church of Morocco
(ECAM: Eglise Catholique au Maroc)
Rabat and Tangier

_Evangelical Church of Morocco
(EEAM: Eglise Evangelique au Maroc)

_Greek and Russian Orthodox

_Anglican Church of Morocco
(Church of England in Europe)


10:28 pm    May 17, 2006
Mac
5
1
Yes,

Morocco has a Large Christian Community.

_Roman Catholic Church of Morocco
(ECAM: Eglise Catholique au Maroc)
Rabat and Tangier

_Evangelical Church of Morocco
(EEAM: Eglise Evangelique au Maroc)

_Greek and Russian Orthodox

_Anglican Church of Morocco
(Church of England in Europe)


10:27 pm    May 17, 2006
Mac
4
1
Yes,

Morocco has a Large Christian Community.

_Roman Catholic Church of Morocco
(ECAM: Eglise Catholique au Maroc)

_Evangelical Church of Morocco
(EEAM: Eglise Evangelique au Maroc)

_Greek and Russian Orthodox

_Anglican Church of Morocco
(Church of England in Europe)


5:25 pm    November 24, 2005
nabilino
3
yeah, i heard somthing like that the US is trying to convert 10% of moroccans to christianity to influence decisions of the gov't. i don't affirm that but all things are possible...we have to be aware of things going on in our beloved maroc.

4:00 pm    November 20, 2005

hudhud message
2
1
this is the case all across north africa. most muslim north africans don't realize how fast and actively these missionary groups are operating.
the truth is there have always been a very small minority of christians and jews in our native lands, for centuries. that has never been a problem. the reality we face today is that a lot of both rural and urban poor communities are being sent missionaries as Tasnime said under the names of various charity groups, and the sad reality is that these poor ppl are often so neglected and forgotten by their own kind that they turn to whomever gives them aid and support, and become loyal to that group. so as things are developing, shi3a, christian, and other groups have been able to attract support and loyalty from our poor that our own nations have forgotten.
it's a shame on our part that we don't know how to take good care of our own kind, such that a paltry bit of food, money, clothes, or other support from outsiders can so easily buy their hearts and souls. it's entirely our failure and our fault as a muslim community for having neglected our own ppl's needs, for having forgotten each other. da3wah starts at home, charity starts at home.

8:25 am    November 20, 2005
Tasnime
1
Not only do they broadcast programs but they have active missionaries working on converting the population in metro areas as well as in rural areas. Most of these missionaries operate under the blanket of charity NGO's. Telquel magazine had a very detailed spread on this issue last year and the facts were scary. I tried to locate the Telquel "enquete" but it must have been taken out of the archives.

Adnane Ben.'s notes (341)
 
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