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SPIRITUAL
Rasta Gnawi
boston, ma Massachusetts USA
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65
comments.
free speech
11:28:57 AM Thursday Feb 2, 2006


I had wanted to raise this issue earlier, but felt that I hadn't made up my mind on it yet. It had to do with the Danish newspaper cartoonish depiction of messenger Mohammed 3alayhi ssalatu wa ssalam as a terrorist. I was bothered by the depiction but felt that they should be able to claim free speech. After all, I have seen many SNL episodes depicting 3issa and Mussa 3alyhima ssalam in offending lights. Many thoughts were racing through my head about the cartoon itself, the feelings it evokes, and the purpose of publishing such a cartoon. In the end, I yielded to the free speech argument while realizing the hypocrisy inherent in the words free-speech in Europe.

During lunch time today, while browsing through another one of my favorite websites, I found this article that actually sheds more light on it that I was able to for myself. I hesitated in sharing this article at first because I don't want to start a discussion on anti-semitism etc. I felt he did such a good job, though, that he deserves a read.

Here you go:
http://www.counterpunch.org/itani02022006.html

BTW Adnane. There should probably be a category of 'culture' or something like that. I don't think this necessarily a spiritual subject


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8:47 am    February 27, 2006

hudhud message
65
"He who angers you, conquers you" ?Elizabeth Kenny
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8:16 am    February 13, 2006
One Drop
64
62
Good reasoning !
Plus Sufi que toi je meur...:)

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2:57 pm    February 10, 2006
chicklette
63
From the Chicago Tribune:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chi-0602090019feb09,1,1117359.story?ctrack=1&cset=true

The perspective of a Western Muslim

By Ahmed M. Rehab
Published February 9, 2006


As a Western Muslim who fully identifies with both worlds, I have watched the Danish cartoon fiasco unravel with shock and dismay.

Is this a manifestation of the clash of civilization that political scientist Samuel P. Huntington has predicted for so long?

Or is it precisely the opposite: a clash of the uncivilized?

Both parties at the root of the controversy are making a mockery of their own values as they purport to expose the shortcomings in one another--and they are dragging all of us in with them.

Under the pretense of testing the limits of freedom of expression, the cartoonists and the European newspapers that published their work have, for a moment, invoked flashes of Europe's ugly past.

It is hard to note the shameless and bigoted stereotyping in the cartoons and not think back to the anti-Semitic depictions that engrossed Germany in the 1930s. Like today's cartoons, the ones back then began as a medium that offered a voice to European disenchantment with a religious minority living in their midst, whose growing influence many viewed as a direct threat to traditional European culture and values.

The freedom of expression claim certainly took a knock when the Guardian recently revealed that the same Danish paper that published the 12 Prophet Muhammad cartoons refused to publish cartoons lampooning Christ three years ago "on the grounds that they could be offensive to readers."

As such, I think that self-respecting Muslims are well within their rights to object, but how some have chosen to do so has dismayed me no less than the cartoons themselves.

Under the pretense of rising up to defend the honor of the Prophet, some Muslims have resorted to actions that would have shamed him.

Muhammad's greatest legacy is the values he came to preach. He put the importance of these values above his own person. It may even be said that his personal eminence was but a consequence of his being a messenger of these great values.

Today, many of these very same values are brought to disrepute, not by insignificant Danish cartoonists, but by Muslim societies. Yet no one takes to the streets in defense of those values that were dearer to the Prophet Muhammad than his own image.

Muslims would do well to consider angry and destructive mobs as a personal insult to the Prophet, who preached that "the best amongst you are those who can reign themselves in when angered."

Muslims would do well to consider vindictiveness as an insult to the Prophet, who preached that the best way to respond to an act of evil is with an act of goodness.

Muslims would do well to consider empty expressions of rage as a personal insult to the Prophet, whose emphasis on contemplation and positive solutions catapulted his community from the margins of civilization to a resplendent center of innovation and achievement.

We Muslims have to reassess our commitment to our faith and values, realizing that these values take priority over symbolic gestures, as important as they may be. Perhaps if we Muslims had obsessed over the values of our Prophet as we have over the mention of his name or the use of his image, we would never have had to defend his person.

So what is next?

So long as Western and Muslim societies allow themselves to be defined by those among them who seek self-affirmation by negating the other, clashes are imminent. We should remain ever-vigilant of inciters who attempt to cast Islam and Christianity into competing football clubs and their adherents into worked-up hooligans who clash in artificial and petty rivalries.

These cartoons have been exploited--if not devised--as agents to drive a wedge between a predominantly Christian Western society and Muslims in the West and around the world.

Those who classify themselves as civilized should play no part in condoning or perpetuating this scheme, rather they should champion a dialogue of understanding between the Muslim world and the West. Both civilizations have contributed much to our world, each can offer much to the other. In the recent past, leading Muslim organizations in the U.S. have repositioned themselves to assume that role. They are willing and able. It is time they be fully engaged.

----------

Ahmed M. Rehab is director of communications for the Council on American-Islamic Relations-Chicago.

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11:11 am    February 10, 2006

Adnane Ben. message
62
Today, Friday, and after an interesting friday prayer speech that touches on this issue, I conditioned my opinion better. Here it is:

I think the anger around the Muslim world is superficial. It does not necessarily reflect the love of Prophet mohammed 3alayhi salat. As Muslims, we "should" correct people when people misrepresent our prophet, but not through violence. Dialogue, or careful reasonable boycott can do it.

I just realized something that opened my eyes, and that is that across Muslim countries, you see daily cartoons of violation of the prophet. The cartoons are very graphical, and in the form of encouraging prostitution, corruption, racism against sa7rawis, belittling of village people, back-stabbing. Muslims themselves are a cornocpia of cartoons that violate Prophet Mohammed and his Sunna every day.

Time to look at this Danish cartoon event as a mercy from God to Muslims to rediscover their true heart-warm love for the prophet.. and that is by Firstly following his teachings, the teachings of his followers, make friends, not foes.

We have enough foes already.

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9:54 am    February 10, 2006

hudhud message
61
made by a caller to one of our local radio stations this morning as they were discussing the matter. the guy who called in said that it's "sad" that the muslim world reacted so predictably as we have seen, and that they are not the ones in control. his point basically was that the publishers and editors knew exactly what they were doing, they knew what the reaction from muslims around the world would be, and that predictability put them in control. they knew how to anger people, and did just that. another caller made the same point, saying those editors knew that what they had done was insensitive and would cause more tension. the whole world knows it, just as well as those editors.

Islam doesn't tell you to turn the other cheek when your rights are infringed upon. but it teaches an appropriate and effective means to tackle such a situation. evaluate the concrete results of the two scenarios as a comparison: the riots across the muslim world have resulted in many deaths, instability, and more than anything really bad PR with images of violence, chaos, and ineffective "noise". the Prophet's example 3alayhi ssalate wassalam was quiet, peaceful, non-violent, and effective: the man learned his lesson, gained enormous respect for the same neighbor he used to harm, and chose to believe in him and accept his message of islam. the prophet did not stoop to his level, nor put trash at the man's door, or try to take revenge. he was the bigger person, rose above that "safaha" and did teach all of us something truly valuable.

the Danish newspaper and editors and publishers did not give a sincere apology. they're merely trying to appease some members within their OWN community who are also upset at their insensitive, discriminatory acts, but not because they love the prophet. the newspaper did not say "we are sorry that we published the cartoons" at all. READ and LISTEN to the words, and juxtapose them with their actions: they claim to be sorry that some people took "offence" at their acts. did they acknowledge that they were rude, insensitive, discriminatory? that they are the ones who sparked the violence which they knew would take place? No.

and since when does an apology have a "but" to it?? a sincere remorse should be complete. honest. but sincerity is something that the vast majority of Europe has yet to learn.

in the end, the muslim world should realize that we do not need any such apology, and that we should not even expect kind attitudes from people with the same mentality as the crusaders of long ago. there is a growing right-wing movement in europe putting a lot of pressure on muslims in europe, whether they are muslims of european ancestry or of immigrant backgrounds. that is a critical part of the bigger picture here, which so many people are all too eager to overlook and forget, until reality slaps them hard in the face. don't forget the context in which these cartoons are playing just a small role.

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8:35 am    February 10, 2006
souhaima
60
These people need jobs...it looks like they have nothing to do. Seriously, why can't they get over it, take the apology and get on with their life? What are they expecting from a world that disagrees with our culture and religion?

Bottom line is whatever they say will not change what they think and the only way to change what they think is to demonstrate better Muslim behavior.
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8:34 am    February 10, 2006
souhaima
59
These people need jobs...it looks like they have nothing to do. Seriously, why can't they get over it, take the apology and get on with their life? What are they expecting from a world that disagrees with our culture and religion?

Bottom line is whatever they say will not change what they think and the only way to change what they think is to demonstrate better Muslim behavior.
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8:31 am    February 10, 2006
resunifaw
58
Dear raioosters,

During the Prophet Mohammed Cartoons (PMC) debates, we often hear that the West and Muslims need an ?Open Dialogue?. So, I thought about what kind of dialogue we, Muslims, are going to have with the West. So, here is a possible scenario:

01. Muslims: You (West) must apologize for publishing the PMC. That is very INSENSITIVE.

02. West: I am sorry for offending you, but the PMC is considered Freedom of speech.

03. Muslims: Prophet Mohammed is sacred to us Muslims. Why do you continue to insult him? That is very INSENSITIVE.

04. West: Jesus is the son of Allah. Why do you continue to deny that? That is very INSENSITIVE.

05. Muslims: Because the Holy Koran tells us that Allah does not have a son.

06. West: The Holy Bible tells us that Jesus is the son of Allah.

07. Muslims: The Bible is corrupted.

08. West: That is not true! That is very INSENSITIVE.

09. Muslims: It?s true. Allah tells us that the Holy Koran is the final and true book and all other books are obsolete, including The Bible

10. West: That is not true! That is very INSENSITIVE. You need to accept Jesus as your Lord and Savor! He died for your sins!

11. Muslims: Jesus did not die! That is very INSENSITIVE

12. West: Jesus is sacred to us Westerners. Why do you continue to insult him? That is very INSENSITIVE.

13. Muslims: We do not insult Jesus. We respect all prophets including Jesus. Do you know that Jesus is a Muslim?

14. West: What? Jesus was a Jew. He was not a Muslim. In fact he could not have been a Muslim because Islam came after Judaism and Christianity. That is very INSENSITIVE.

15. Muslims: Jews believe in Moses. Moses is also a Muslim. Therefore Jews are Muslims. Since you said Jesus is a Jew, he is also a Muslim.

16. West: Are you saying that Israel is a Muslim state?

17. Muslims: What Israel? There?s no Israel. The Europeans invented the Holocaust to help create the state of Israel by slaughtering the Palestinians and occupying the Muslim lands.

18. West: Are you a Holocaust denier?

19. Muslims: No! But I do question the reasons and ramifications of the mass killing of European Jews and how it affected the Muslims.

20. West: You can?t deny the Holocaust. It?s a historical fact and it?s against the law to deny that horrible historical fact.

21. Muslims: I am sorry for offending you, but the Holocaust topic is considered Freedom of speech.

22. West: I am sorry for offending you, but the PMC is considered Freedom of speech.

[We are back to item 02 above: Wake me up when this ?Open Dialogue? is finished]

The End!

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8:07 am    February 10, 2006

Adnane Ben. message
57
56
"..While most Danish Muslims are satisfied by the apology already issued by Jyllands-Posten, the newspaper that first published the cartoons, half of Danes still think that the paper could do more to appease the Arab world.

Editor-in-chief Carsten Juste remains firm. "We are sorry for any offence caused by the drawings, but we cannot apologise for freedom of expression," he said. "

On BBC: Danish Muslims split over cartoons.

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7:33 am    February 10, 2006

Rasta Gnawi message
56
Did I just see the Danish paper apologize for the cartoons? Not sure. Just a quick headline that flew across my screen but never got to see any details.
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6:28 pm    February 9, 2006
souhaima
55
52
Rasta,
You think he was successful? I didn't think so. I mean he made good points but when you have everyone in the conversation against you including Tom Ashkroft who always plays the devil's advocate, I think it's hard to be convincing...Maybe I missed the beginning of the show, because all I heard was him trying defend Muslims while Irshad (or Rashad) was accusing Muslims of being the least sensitive. I mean she made good points also but I thought they made the whole issue revolve around the religion while it's only part of the problem.
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4:22 pm    February 9, 2006

Aziz Bezza message
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51
arabi,
you are right. as much as the iranian idea seems ridiculous, it teaches a lesson of how far free speech can go. and after all the language was chosen by the danes.
and refraining by virtue of wisdom has proven wrong since some right wing media kept picking on muslims constantly.
having said that, i reject the violent response taking place all over the arab/muslim world.
and one last thought, i am wondering what is the vatican's take on all this kaos.
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11:42 am    February 9, 2006
resunifaw
53
Dear raioosters,

01. Let?s do a recap of the cartoon FITNA!

02. Western position:

==>A. Prophet Mohammed Cartoons = Freedom of speech

==>B. Freedom of speech is both a right and a responsibility.

==>C. The cartoons are INSENSITIVE to Muslims but they are still part of Freedom of speech.

==>D. Secularism is the foundation of the West and is far more sacred than any religion including Christianity, Judaism, and Islam.

==>E. Prophet Mohammed Cartoons = Democracy

03. Muslim position (Majority but not all Muslims):

==>A. Prophet Mohammed cartoons = Islam is terrorism

==>B. Prophet Mohammed cartoons = Islamophobia

==>C. Prophet Mohammed cartoons is NOT FREEDOM OF SPEECH

==>D. Prophet Mohammed cartoons = Western Hypocrisy because the Holocaust is protected in the west and Islam should also be protected

==>E. Prophet Mohammed cartoons = Muslim feeling is hurt.

==>F. Prophet Mohammed cartoons = insensitive, it is offensive, it is provocative

04. Muslim reactions:

==>A. Protests have caused many deaths so far in Afghanistan and other countries

==>B. Boycotts: Danish products are suffering financially

==>C. Diplomatic relations are cut between many ?Muslim? countries and the Danish government

==>D. Death threats against the newspaper publishers, Danish embassy employees, etc?

05. Western reaction:

==>A. We stand by the newspaper cartoon publishing

==>B. The Muslims need to get over it. If they don?t like the Western democracy, then they need to pack their bags and go home

==>C. Christians are more tolerant and have a better sense of humor than the ?close minded Muslims?. When Christ is cartooned in the west, it?s not a big deal.

06. Koran position on the cartoons: Nothing!

07. Hadith position on the cartoons:

====>Bukhari: (Book #54, Hadith #539)

=====>Narrated Abu Talha: The Prophet said, "Angels do not enter a house witch has either a dog or a picture in it."

08. Projected winner(s): Muslims and Westerners!

09. Westerners will win the following argument(s):

===>A. Freedom of speech is far more important than any religious beliefs.

10. Muslims will win the following argument(s):

===>A. Muslims have the capability to Boycott western goods.

===>B. Muslims can mobilize the masses to protest against a common enemy!

===>C. Muslims have the intellectual minds to debate the pros and cons of Freedom of speech vs. Religious belief

===>D. Muslims will learn more about the Western thinking process (secularism, freedom of speech)

===>E. Muslims will learn more about how they should react to the Western thinking process (Iran cartoon competition is a very clever idea!)

===>F. Muslims will learn more about Islam (their own religion) by reflecting on the content of both the Holy Koran and the Hadith collections.

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10:27 am    February 9, 2006

Rasta Gnawi message
52
I listened to the NPR show. I thought it was good. The pakistani guy from the Fletcher school I thought put it in context. There is a difference between free speech and hate speech. He drove that point home pretty hard and successfully, I thought. He made sure he mentioned that some Persian societies do not object to the depiction of Mohammed 3alyhi assalam. He gave a pretty good example: imagine someone going into a baptist church in the south and showing picture of Jesus as a child molester simply because a few priests were found guilty of such acts. He said there was anti-semitc speech, there was racists speech, and this was Islamophobic speech.

I like Tariq Ramadan. I feel his take on the issue in this article is pretty simplistic; but an issue such as this one requires that kind of simplification. From the outside it would seem we are at an impass; that someone will need to yield. From the inside, many doors for debate are opened. This overall is a good thing. Once the dust settles, we'd have grown wiser.

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10:20 am    February 9, 2006
arabie
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49
As I mentioned before, if it were up to me to react, I wouldn't have.

Unfortunately, this isn't about me or you. This isn't your feelings or mine only. This involves a Billion and half and more underground. These people are offended and deeply hurt still. Whether you and I don't feel a thing concering this matter does not play a factor in the greater outlook of this issue. Therefore, how you or I would react won't matter. Furthermore, sometimes you're faced with people so low (Note: could be in any aspect), and you try so hard not to get down to that level and teach them a lesson, yet you'd have to do just that as it is the only way to deliver the message and teach a lesson to that person. For example, you can't teach a child logic without getting down to very simple and palyful level. You can't teach anything to anyone if that someone does not relate to what you're talking about. To teach some one a lesson, you have to speak their language and things in terms they can relate to.

I am sorry, I don't want to preach some ideology that is detached from the world we live in. When was last time you turned the other cheek over and over and over again.

Again as reminder; if it were up to me, I wouldn't have reacted. The contest speeks the hypocrites language and sends a powerful message about where freedom of speech infringes on people's religion, values, and ultimately their freedom.

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8:36 am    February 9, 2006

hudhud message
50
49
beautiful lines, allah yerham elimam eshafi3i
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6:10 am    February 9, 2006

Adnane Ben. message
49
47
"..Yes I hear your arguments about handling this issue in a much more sophisticated manner, and this contest is just the way to do that."

The contest is the way NOT to do that.

"..Let the Danish and Norwegian newspapers join this contest now. After all it is a celebration of freedom of speech!!!"

It is a celebration of idiocity and audacity. The Danish newspaper was a "safih". Imam Shafi3i wrote a poem about the "safih", and yet another one from the Imam, and the reaction of the Muslims should have been just that.

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11:37 pm    February 8, 2006

hudhud message
48
46
doesn't that tell you something?? if they cared for peace and safety for all humankind around the world, do you think they'd be fueling the flames further, provoking and inciting masses further? and then pointing the finger at those angry reactive mobs and saying ooh, look at these mozlems, they're disrespectful, they're violent, their cities are in uproar, in chaos, they are harming innocent diplomats, destroying buildings, etc, etc..
hypocrisy means: saying one thing, but doing its opposite. actions speak louder than words, and right now the actions implemented by the same guy who is preaching "respect" and non-violence are: enormous military budget, deaths of thousands and thousands of people, including countless innocent civilians - women, children, and elderly, destruction of homes, schools, houses of worship, livestock, farmlands, and with all that the livelihoods of so many, and no disciplinary action nor even a powerful statement condemning the discrimination taking place in europe. that silence alone speaks volumes.

truth be told, i can't expect too much from such a person or persons. i can't expect justice, respect, and support for my human rights from such beings.

arabie, what did those Iranian cartoons accomplish? they are a reaction, and also further provocation, without solving the discrimination issue. they did not educate the danish or other european communities about why so many muslims find those cartoons offensive. they did not teach children who are the future generations how to behave tolerantly or peacefully and respectfully with people of differing faiths. they did not share valuable insights from the prophet's life which could have demonstrated how peaceful, beautiful, exemplary, and inspirational his life truly was. THAT in my opinion would have been a valuable reaction. as muslims, we are taught to show respect for others, regardless of their faith. think of the prophet's examples in his life: he had a jewish neighbor who used to go out of his way on a daily basis to put trash, thorny branches, and other dirt in front of the prophet's doorstep. and every morning, the prophet would simply clean it up, quietly, and left the guy alone. one day when he didn't find the trash at his doorstep, he asked about the jew, heard he was sick, and went to go visit him. this act of kindness, wisdom, and mercy spoke louder than anyone else's words of bigotry or disrespect against the prophet, and the man embraced islam. this is a valuable lesson for every human being on the face of the earth.

remember the saying "elmaa yrattab lehjaar" = water softens rocks. anger and violence are counterproductive. so is mockery, regardless of intent. do you really think the danish and other european editors, journalists, and publishers are going to "learn a lesson" from the iranian cartoons? are they even in a state of mind that it is open enough to consider the other person's pov? think about it.

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9:46 pm    February 8, 2006
arabie
47
44
The world knows that when the holocaust was taking place in the western world and when the Norwegian and Danish Nazis were chasing the Jews down the streets and ratting them out to the blood thirsty, Arab/Muslim countries such us Morocco provided unconditional refuge to thousands of Jews and harbored them from inevitable genocide. History, we know!

Now the Holocaust-mocking cartoon hosted by a Muslim country would be nothing but a way to make the hypocrites see and feel why the Muslim world is so angry. Sort of a lesson of Apathy. Nothing less- nothing more.

The very purpose of this competition is not to disrespect one or another but to show that even freedom of speech has limits. Unfortunately, some people must feel pain to learn their lesson. AGAIN throughout this competition, let's remember that the primary cause for the Holocaust is the western world. I mean that is VERY essential to remember that.

It is neither childish nor silly; the contest is good, harsh, and much-needed lesson for those who preach what they cannot uphold themselves. Let the Danish and Norwegian newspapers join this contest now. After all it is a celebration of freedom of speech!!!

Yes I hear your arguments about handling this issue in a much more sophisticated manner, and this contest is just the way to do that. However, in a different world where all the peoples are on higher wave length, we would not see actions nor reactions of this kind.

I guess, I don?t want to play judge and just judge Muslims? reactions all around the world while forgetting about what caused these riots and malaise in the Muslim world. We?ve got to be fair, hence tolerant.

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7:35 pm    February 8, 2006

Adnane Ben. message
46
45
Rasta G said, I think, in one of his posts something along the lines that this cartoon episode could be a potential recruiting spike of suicide bombers and "fighters".. The US ought not encourage the Danish freedom of speech when it comes to these cartoons by staying silent..
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5:53 pm    February 8, 2006
souhaima
45
43
Adnane,
I listened to on point today. I was disappointed however. They brought a scholar from pakistan and some professor (her name was Rashad but I couldn't remember where she was from). while the scholar was trying to explain that the cartoons were embracing hatred and were inappropriate, Rashad was accusing muslims of overreacting while they are the most insensitive...she mentioned the destroying of temples and burning of churches in history...and all the callers seemed to agree with her. I was trying to join the conversation but the line was busy...maybe it was a good thing :-) (I would have missed my cube) Anyway, I wish someone pointed out that the cartoons were intended to piss off the muslim community in Europe and get them back to their countries and that the US seems to be taking advantage of the situation to gain Europe on their side against Iran, Syria and the rest of the list that's on the agenda.

anyway, about the iranian contest, I find it childish. we should be smarter and wiser than that.

one more thing: everyone knows that there is no freedom of speech. Shaheen wears a shirt saying "thousands are dead, how many more?" and she gets kicked out of the room...pff freedom and democracy...yeah right

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4:42 pm    February 8, 2006

hudhud message
44
43
I missed that NPR show too! darnit.
discrimination and disrespect are the same species, regardless of where they originated. I think the Iranian cartoons are a sign of immaturity, tit-for-tat, rather than attempting to resolve the bigger issue at hand. Not brilliant at all :/
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3:33 pm    February 8, 2006

Adnane Ben. message
43
Firstly, I don't support Iran's cartoon contest about the jewish holocaust. It is worse than the Danish cartoons. It is silly and yes direspectful.

Secondly, I don't support the angry protesters. It is not a proud Muslim reaction. It is silly and direspectful.

My opinion is honestly still neutral on the whole Danish cartoon episode.

NPR's On Point was talking about the cartoon fury this morning I didn't get to listen. I wonder what came of it.

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1:25 pm    February 8, 2006
arabie
42
41
In fact, most of the enlightened people in this world do.

How about the Iranian chanllenge to Free Speech!!! What about that Message. That my friends would have been the best answers. Without sheding blood, without getting overwhelmingly frustrated, the muslim world retaliates by quitely boycotting goods and expressing their freedom of speech with cartoons of the Holocaust. Perfect and Brilliant! I am soooooooo curious to see the world reaction to this!!! I am curious to see if Danmark and Norway would participate in this competition of the best Holocaust-mocking cartoon.

Hypocrists just shot themselves in the foot!!!!

Cool!!!! all this hate in the name of free speech!!! reminds me of all dead Iraqis for the name of democracy!!!

Hypocrits rule the world!!!!

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10:49 am    February 8, 2006

hudhud message
41
W's comments today telling people who protested the cartoons to "be respectful" and that violence is not the way. Did he tell the editors and publishers who incited this all to be respectful? Or the racist dane who encouraged her people to show hatred and bigotry, and discriminate against others who are from a different faith than her own? And oh yeah, I'm sure the guy with the biggest military budget in the universe knows a lot about violence not being the way..

I am very disappointed in those who fueled their anger into violence and allowed themselves to be manipulated this way. They have accomplished NOTHING except give themselves and the muslim world yet another bad image of violence and chaos. But I'm even more disgusted with a creature who embodies the very meaning of hypocrisy, and has the balls to stand up to a microphone preaching to the world on a subject that he knows absolutely nothing about.

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8:49 am    February 8, 2006
arabie
40
dear resunifaw,

With all due respect-What are you talking about?!!! You talk in bullets to imply a logical sequence of organized thoughts to lead to a certain conclusion, yet every time you deviate from the soul issue and branch to something else.

Let's focus on the debate at hand. Let me take you back the Free Speech Vs Respect of Religion. Or Free Speech Vs Hypocrisy.

As I mentioned in my previous post, muslims are entitled to react as they see fair and fit, they have been hurt and agressed. It is very interesting to see what the world will do about free speech that Iranian newspapers will exercise by publishing Holocaust cartoons. The U.S. has already comdemned this acts before they happened....WoW!!!! Let's see if Danmark and Norway can publish those same cartoons, after all why should the jews with the rest of man kind be offended. They are simple cartoons manifesting freedom of speech!!!!!

We all have the right to do somethings, but we all need to learn when to refrain as we might directly direspect people. Tolerance people! Tolerance!

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11:53 am    February 7, 2006

hudhud message
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34
"All riots cool off. This one will as well, but it sure makes exteremist recruitment a lot easier."
that alone should be a red flag as to the motives of those behind publishing and re-publishing the cartoons.. sad how easily people can be provoked into such reactions.. when i see pictures of the protests in the news, it conjures up an image of a red devil poking someone in their belly with a big hot pitchfork.. rahoum ghir yela3bou bichou3oub, like tossing snap peas in a hot frying pan.
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11:08 am    February 7, 2006

Aziz Bezza message
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36
hey sunfrutyflower,
your last posting sounds very wise. It's wonderful that you are able to sense the freedom in the USA. actually we have to congratulate you on that 5 miles numbered explanation about how different the US is from MA. all i have to say is wow!!! only few people can draw these distinctions without understanding the meaning of free speech, insults, and discrimination.
salam
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10:52 am    February 7, 2006

hudhud message
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yeah but rasta even back then many muslim scholars were against such depictions of the prophet, or any attempts to paint portraits of him, even though that artwork wasn't mocking or dirisive. fact is, many historic "muslim rulers" didn't always follow a lot of the islamic rules (alcohol, lots of concubines, persecution and killing of those who held opposing political views, etc, etc, etc.) so why would a few paintings make any difference..
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10:19 am    February 7, 2006
resunifaw
36
Dear raioosters,

1. These 12 pictures were published back in September-2005 (5 months ago?)

2. The stories are that some Muslim Imams from Denmark went to the middle east to make the people of the middle east aware of these cartoons and the Danish society as a whole.

3. These Denmark Imams, took with them other "Prophet Mohammed" pictures portraying him as a PIG:

http://www.neandernews.com/?p=54%20.

4. The pig picture turned out to be fake! Is this true? is this Western propaganda to discredit the Muslim protesters?

5. Also, it seems that the Queen of Denmark said some thing that looked "Anti-Islamic":

http://www.royalarchive.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=546&Itemid=2


6. This article is by a Muslim who says that the remarks were misinterpreted:

http://www.royalarchive.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=575&Itemid=2

7. Allahu Akbar. Fitna anyone?

8. Peace!

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10:01 am    February 7, 2006

Rasta Gnawi message
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33
Hudhud,
Just saying that paintings of the prophet were made several centuries ago in a muslim country by muslim artists for muslim rulers. Now they are not. That's all :)
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9:57 am    February 7, 2006

Rasta Gnawi message
34
Hudhud,

In France and Germany, it is unlawful to deny the Jewish Holocaust. Not sure about other acts of genocide. So can't tell if you deny the Ruwanda genocide whether you'd end up in jail.

I read somewhere that the queen of Denmark had already made some derrogatory comments about Mulims in her biography. Perhaps there was a lot brewing in that pot to begin with.

This thing is taking silly dimensions. All riots cool off. This one will as well, but it sure makes exteremist recruitment a lot easier.

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9:53 am    February 7, 2006

hudhud message
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30
"Somewhere in our history the rules got rewritten."
what are you talking about?
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9:45 am    February 7, 2006
resunifaw
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Dear adnane,

1. Iran decided to go "Eye for an Eye" Cartoon for Cartoon"

2. Here's the article:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4688466.stm

3. Since you are the artist in this forum, help us create a Holy cartoon to enter the "Cartoon-opia" contest and send it to Iran

4. I presented earlier a few cartoon ideas, here they are again:

First cartoon:

"I will raise money and ask the Danish newspaper to publish a cartoon showing Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed holding hands together with the following statement above their heads: ?WE ARE PROPHETS. WE ARE MUSLIMS.?

Second cartoon:

So, let?s say (hypothetical situation) that the Muslims in Denmark publish 3 cartoons next to each other in the Danish newspaper in question:

Cartoon#1: ?Prophet Mohammed wearing a turban and a BOMB on his head with the writing THERE?S NO GOD BUT ALLAH, MOHAMMED IS HIS PROPHET?

Cartoon#2: ?Prophet Mohammed wearing a turban and a STAR OF DAVID on his head with the writing THERE WAS NO HOLOCAUST, EUROPE LIED?

Cartoon#3: ?Prophet Mohammed wearing a turban and a FLAG OF DENMARK on his head with the writing FREEDOM OF SPEECH?

5. It will be very interesting to hear from other raioosters about how they can use cartoons to fight back the Danish cartoons.

6. I am looking forward to what the Iranians can come up with (They can't draw Prophet Jesus or Mohammed. Or is this a Sunni restriction only. Are the shiaa Allowed to draw Mohammed?).

7. So far, the only caroons that make laugh are: ScoobyDoo and Tom and Jerry!

8. Peace!

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8:55 am    February 7, 2006
resunifaw
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25
Dear aziz,

01. You seem to have a problem with "Freedom of Speech".

02. According to dictionary.com:

"Freedom of speech = The right to express information, ideas, and opinions free of government restrictions based on content and subject only to reasonable limitations (as the power of the government to avoid a clear and present danger) esp. as guaranteed by the First and Fourteenth Amendments to the U.S. Constitution"

03. As a Moroccan, I came to the USA a long time ago.

04. The first thing that I noticed about America is the fact that the media makes fun of the president, his wife, his kids, and his pets.

05. I thought that some Americans are going to be killed for saying stuff like that on TV and newspapers (saying that the president daughters are ugly and/or his wife is "F-ugly")

06. The second thing that I noticed in the USA is the pictures of Jesus on TV, newspapers, cartoons, and even sex scenes about Jesus being GAY! (There's no record of Jesus being married!)

07. Well, let me tell you this: Jesus GAY! Holy crap! THIS MUST BE THE END OF TIMES. Right?

08. 20 years later, America is still kicking ass and taking names! Allah did not destroy America and its freedom of speech! Yet???

09. The third thing that I noticed is that the constitution of the USA is Holier than the Torah, Bible, and Koran combined! (Don?t be hating!)

10. The fourth thing that I noticed is that when I bought my tickets from Royal Air Maroc, landed in Mohammed V airport, spending some vacation time in many cities across Morocco, etc?THERE WAS SOMETHING MISSING! Aaaah! I know what it is: bribing and begging the ?AlMkaddem to extend my passport?, bribing and begging the clerks at the ?Mokataa? to get my birth certificate, bribing and begging the airport customs to let me go through customs with a VCR!, I was frustrated with the bribery because it?s not right, not ISLAMIC, etc?AND?..When you say those UNHOLY words: ?Naarree ala Dawla? = ?HELL what a country!?, it?s blasphemy! Did I just insult somebody? Allah? Prophet? King? Etc?

11. The fifth thing that I noticed is that the constitution of Morocco states (freedom):
Article 9: The constitution shall guarantee all citizens the following:

===>a.freedom of movement through, and of settlement in, all parts of the Kingdom;

===>b.freedom of opinion, of expression in all its forms, and of public gathering;

===>c.Freedom of association and the freedom to belong to any union or political group of their choice.

12. The sixth thing that I noticed is that the constitution of Morocco states (sacred):

Article 19: The King, "Amir Al-Muminin"(Commander of the Faithful), shall be the Supreme Representative of the Nation and the Symbol of the unity thereof.

Article 23: The person of the King shall be sacred and inviolable.

13. The seventh thing that I noticed is this: How come when I go to Morocco for a 30 day vacation, I enjoy myself as long as I stay away from religious and political opinions? Is it SELF CENSORSHIP from my part?

14. Well, YES! It?s self censorship and I do not like it. That?s the reason why I always look forward to coming back to America, my home, my sanctuary, my country.

15. Let?s face it, we like America for its jobs, money, social work, hospitals, clean highways, education, free napkins and refills at McDonalds, organized ?Mokataa? (government building), the organized paper forms that you have to fill before you get a passport, etc?No bribes, no headaches, etc?and yes, FREEDOM OF SPEECH that is 100% better than any MUSLIM society on the face of PLANET EARTH!.

16. So, here is my dilemma: I feel that I am 100% a better Muslim here in the USA (Kafir country) than in Morocco (Muslim country)! And the major part of this feeling is that I can actually use my brain to read, write, analyze, and criticize the HOLY THINGS out there! I want to learn!

17. Portraying Jesus as GAY (on SNL), made me laugh VERY HARD (I do not know why, but it was funny! Maybe I was thinking how my dad will react if he sees Jesus or Mohammed and Gay in the same TV scene)! Seeing Jesus beating the hell out of Judas on Saturday Night Live (SNL) cracked me up! Seeing Jesus, Moses, and Mohammed playing Jeopardy on Saturday Night Live (I think!) made me laugh and think at the same time!

18. Zooming specifically at our beloved Prophet Mohammed. Why does it really bother us what THEY (INFIDELS!) SAY ABOUT HIM? When they DRAW HIM? RIDICULE him? Etc?

19. Prophet Mohammed is dead (let?s get over it already)! He delivered his MESSAGE (Holy Koran). We all know that during his time he was persecuted by the NON-BELIEVERS (KAFIRS). During his time there was ?FREEDOM OF SPEECH? because people expressed their opinions and opposition to his message by telling him things like: (Quran 10:15)

?? Bring a Quran other than this, or change it. Say (O Muhammad): It is not for me to change it of my accord. I only follow that which is inspired in me. Lo! if I disobey my Lord I fear the retribution of an awful Day??

20. Are we Muslims frustrated because the West is so advanced (technologically, medically, financially, civilly, space, moon, and planet explorations, militarily, etc?) that we feel hopeless, weak, unmotivated, backward, exhausted, confused, shameful, hypocrites, etc?that the ONLY thing that we have left is DEFENDING our religion, its book, and it?s Prophet(s)?

21. Is Prophet Mohammed sacred? I do not think so! This is what Allah said (Quran 41:6):

?Say (O Muhammad SAW): "I am only a human being like you?

22. Did Prophet Mohammed make mistakes? Of course he did, here?s the Holy Quran (66:1):
"O Prophet! Why do you forbid (yourself) that which Allah has made lawful for you; you seek to please your wives; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."

23. Freedom of Speech = Why can?t I draw a human being? Why can?t I analyze in a critical way what Prophet Mohammed stood for? Did? Did not do? We will all learn something from different points of views including a cartoon portraying a HUMAN being wearing a turban and a bomb on his head.

24. Are we Muslims unable to advance our Quran knowledge? (20:114)
"O my Lord! Advance me in knowledge."

25. This Holy Koran verse, tell us that when people are denying or making fun of a Koran Ayat (verse), DO not sit down with them until they change the subject. Does this mean NO FREEDOM OF SPEECH? The Danish newspapers mocked the prophet (human being) not a Koran Ayat!

Quran (4:140):

?And it has already been revealed to you in the Book (this Quran) that when you hear the Verses of Allah being denied and mocked at, then sit not with them, until they engage in a talk other than that; (but if you stayed with them) certainly in that case you would be like them. Surely, Allah will collect the hypocrites and disbelievers all together in Hell?

26. I wonder what will happen if a western newspaper mocks an Ayat and how they will try to do it.

27. Peace

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7:16 am    February 7, 2006

Rasta Gnawi message
30
29

True. You to yours, me to mine. Irani newspapers have started a contest of holocaust cartoons. Let's hear the freedom of speech argument on that, and let's also put Demark at the same level as Iran. This newspaper wanted to ignite people and they've succeeded.

I was at the Louvre last year, and I saw a very old persian painting. It was done in Iraq I think. It had the picture of a man talking to people around him, and below it said in Arabic: prophet Mohammed talking to such and such. Somewhere in our history the rules got rewritten.

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5:42 am    February 7, 2006
adam
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1
Yes, the editors of European newspapers who published the "offending" cartoons know what they're doing... they're doing a rather tame version of what state-run media in many Arab countries do on a weekly basis; namely run cartoons showing Jews and Christians in an unflattering light. The protesting Muslims are holy hypocrites. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. You to your religion and me to mine (sera 109), right?
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5:42 am    February 7, 2006
adam
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1
Yes, the editors of European newspapers who published the "offending" cartoons know what they're doing... they're doing a rather tame version of what state-run media in many Arab countries do on a weekly basis; namely run cartoons showing Jews and Christians in an unflattering light. The protesting Muslims are holy hypocrites. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. You to your religion and me to mine (sera 109), right?
·

5:40 am    February 7, 2006
adam
27
1
Yes, the editors of European newspapers who published the "offending" pictures know what they're doing... they're doing a rather tame version of what state-run media in many Arab countries do on a weekly basis; namely run cartoons showing Jews and Christians in an unflattering light. The protesting Muslims are holy hypocrites. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. You to your religion and me to mine (sera 109), right?
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5:39 am    February 7, 2006
adam
26
1
Yes, the editors of European newspapers who published the pictures know what they're doing... they're doing a rather tame version of what state-run media in many Arab countries do on a weekly basis; namely run cartoons showing Jews and Christians in an unflattering light. The protesting Muslims are holy hypocrites. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. You to your religion and me to mine (sera 109), right?
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6:23 pm    February 6, 2006

Aziz Bezza message
25
24
Hi hudhud,
it's all worded in terms of freedom of religion, race, minority,prevention of genocide...etc. nothing specific to the holocaust. but Iam not 100%sure.

For my friend resunifaw, and just under the banner of free speech, let me tell you that your spins radiate beyond figuig.

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3:55 pm    February 6, 2006

hudhud message
24
23
Is there anything in Danish or other European countries' law, clearly worded, in reference to the Holocaust? I hear people make these allusions, and I'm really curious what's out there from the legal aspect, not just in terms of social/political pressures, but the written law itself.. if anyone knows, pls post.
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3:01 pm    February 6, 2006
resunifaw
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22
Dear arabie,

01. I have heard and read enough articles about the correlation between the cartoons about Prophet Mohammed and the Holocaust.

02. As a Muslim of the 21st century, I know that Hitler killed a lot of people in Europe.

03. A good number of those people killed are Jews (My brothers and sisters!). And based on different accounts, it seems that the number of Jews killed is about 6 million (At least that's what Israel, and some western nations say).

04. Now, as far as the exact figure of how many Jews died: 1 million, 3 million, 6 million, I have no idea who is saying the truth and who is lying. Does it really matter?

05. What seems to be a fact is that a mass murder (Holocaust) of Jews has happened and some of them ended up living in Morocco to escape the "White European Killers" (Not all Europeans are killers!).

06. If some Western countries are not allowing people to question the validity of the 6 million numbers or even the occurrence of the Holocaust, then what is the reason behind that? Is it to prevent another Jewish Holocaust? Is it because the Jews have a lot of good lawyers? Is it because the Jews have a lot of money?

07. Now, I am trying to figure out the correlation of the Holocaust to Prophet Mohammed?s cartoons.

08. Prophet Mohammed?s cartoons are just that: cartoons, fictional, look at them, analyze them, laugh, cry, etc?AND yes: Out of the 12 cartoons, the one with Prophet Mohammed wearing a bomb is THE CARTOON of concern. The rest of them, I have no idea what you can get out of them? (I said before they suck!)

09. So, let?s zoom in on this particular cartoon of Prophet Mohammed wearing a turban with a bomb and ?There?s no GOD but Allah, Mohammed is his prophet!?

10. The Muslims say that this cartoon means: ?Prophet Mohammed = terrorist and Islam = Terrorism?

11. The Journalists who have published these cartoons say it means: ?Freedom of speech?.

12. So, let?s say (hypothetical situation) that the Muslims in Denmark publish 3 cartoons next to each other in the Danish newspaper in question:

Cartoon#1: ?Prophet Mohammed wearing a turban and a BOMB on his head with the writing THERE?S NO GOD BUT ALLAH, MOHAMMED IS HIS PROPHET?

Cartoon#2: ?Prophet Mohammed wearing a turban and a STAR OF DAVID on his head with the writing THERE WAS NO HOLOCAUST, EUROPE LIED?

Cartoon#3: ?Prophet Mohammed wearing a turban and a FLAG OF DENMARK on his head with the writing FREEDOM OF SPEECH?

13. Is it legal to do step #12 in Denmark? Europe?

14. It seems to me that we, Muslims, are trying to say this: We want the Denmark law to be amended and add to it the following statement: ?If you draw Prophet Mohammed with a bomb on his head, we will apply the same law that applies to a person who denies the occurrence of the Holocaust?

15. Can the Denmark Muslims hire some ?Jewish lawyers? who worked on the ?Holocaust denier law? to help ?Muslim lawyers? amend the Denmark law to include ?Prophet Mohammed cartoon law??

16. The Muslim street protests are OK, but they have become routine and not effective at all. Shouting gives me a headache, changing the Denmark law gives me pride!

17. Peace!

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1:10 pm    February 6, 2006
arabie
22
A person is free to speak and to protest. A person is free to act and to react.

Why are we judging Muslims around the world for they have done nothing but REact? Why is Muslims' reaction 'big-heading' the news papers?

If you infringe on my freedom and insult me by expressing your freedom of speech, don't ask me to react the way you'd like me to. I will react as I see, feel, and think appropriate and fit.

I cannot judge muslims for their reactions around the world, they have been offended and they are showing it. Who am I to suggest to them a proper way to REACT to an offensive act. You may not think much of the Act that dipicted the symbol and the Father of Islam as low as one can imagine. Complete lack of respect and indiference to more than one billion muslims now living out there, and many more muslims who passed before them. Muslims are simply REACTing as they were truly hurt.

Now try this! Try to say, draw, or even think something anti-semtic, and you'll see the world crashing before you, and the funny part is that you might be an arab, i.e., a semit yourself ;)

Personally if I were to react to these drawings, I wouldn't at all........

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12:33 pm    February 6, 2006

hudhud message
21
16
"Let them go at it, cough off all what they have to say, at the end they wouldn't have changed the substance of who I am, who you are, who Prophet Mohammed is, who God is, what Islam stands for."
Thank You!!!!

and here here to this: "we Muslims, should learn again our religion from scratch"
I really wish that every one of us muslims would try to learn islam as if we are doing so from the perspective of someone who knows NOTHING about it. start from zero. learn with an open mind...

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8:02 am    February 6, 2006

Rasta Gnawi message
20
resunifaw,

When the cartoons were published in the newspaper, they were published under the title "Mohammed ansigt." I looked up anisgt online and it translates into "face." So let's see, Mohammed Face in the title, under which we have some cartoons. I don't think people are misunderstanding the pictures or the message. I am inclined to give these editors the freedom of speech chip, but to argue that it was not intended to be Mohammed pbuh is a little silly.

But let's face it, Europe is sick of having its population dilluted by these brown, bearded minorities. It realizes it made a mistake by allowing them to immigrate in large numbers. It could not provide them with the same social opportunities it provided its indigenous populations, and most importantly it was not able to integrate them and have them shed their alliegence to their native lands and parental native lands, religions, and customs. These cartoons, the Dutch movie last year or a few years back, the headscraf issue in France, these are only manifestations of Europe's growing anxieties and frustrations with the evolution of this group of people it is now forced to accept as citizens.

The burning of consulates etc is also the manifestation of growing frustrations with a Western world seen quickly drifting back to its colonial habits of a century ago and before.

Europe's problem is growing and ticking. It lashed against jewish people earlier in the century, I can't see why it can't lash against muslims now.

G Atsar

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8:01 am    February 6, 2006

Rasta Gnawi message
19
resunifaw,

When the cartoons were published in the newspaper, they were published under the title "Mohammed ansigt." I looked up anisgt online and it translates into "face." So let's see, Mohammed Face in the title, under which we have some cartoons. I don't think people are misunderstanding the pictures or the message. I am inclined to give these editors the freedom of speech chip, but to argue that it was not intended to be Mohammed pbuh is a little silly.

But let's face it, Europe is sick of having its population dilluted by these brown, bearded minorities. It realizes it made a mistake by allowing them to immigrate in large numbers. It could not provide them with the same social opportunities it provided its indigenous populations, and most importantly it was not able to integrate them and have them shed their alliegence to their native lands and parental native lands, religions, and customs. These cartoons, the Dutch movie last year or a few years back, the headscraf issue in France, these are only manifestations of Europe's growing anxieties and frustrations with the evolution of this group of people it is now forced to accept as citizens.

The burning of consulates etc is also the manifestation of growing frustrations with a Western world seen quickly drifting back to its colonial habits of a century ago and before.

Europe's problem is growing and ticking. It lashed against jewish people earlier in the century, I can't see why it can't lash against muslims now.

G Atsar

·

7:48 am    February 6, 2006

Rasta Gnawi message
18
resunifaw,

When the cartoons were published in the newspaper, they were published under the title "Mohammed ansigt." I looked up anisgt online and it translates into "face." So let's see, Mohammed Face in the title, under which we have some cartoons. I don't think people are misunderstanding the pictures or the message. I am inclined to give these editors the freedom of speech chip, but to argue that it was not intended to be Mohammed pbuh is a little silly.

But let's face it, Europe is sick of having its population dilluted by these brown, bearded minorities. It realizes it made a mistake by allowing them to immigrate in large numbers. It could not provide them with the same social opportunities it provided its indigenous populations, and most importantly it was not able to integrate them and have them shed their alliegence to their native lands and parental native lands, religions, and customs. These cartoons, the Dutch movie last year or a few years back, the headscraf issue in France, these are only manifestations of Europe's growing anxieties and frustrations with the evolution of this group of people it is now forced to accept as citizens.

The burning of consulates etc is also the manifestation of growing frustrations with a Western world seen quickly drifting back to its colonial habits of a century ago and before.

Europe's problem is growing and ticking. It lashed against jewish people earlier in the century, I can't see why it can't lash against muslims now.

G Atsar

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12:38 am    February 5, 2006

Adnane Ben. message
17
16
we Muslims, should learn again our religion from scratch. We seem to have lost a big part of the essence of what prophet Mohammed and God wanted us to live by and pass down. We are now living by a tiny essence, thank God, but it is not enough. I always feel uncomfortable when I see on TV images of protestors in Muslims countries putting American flags, French flags or some European flag on flames! flags that represent the essence of a proud nation. Aren't they being insensitive towards the American people or the citizens of those countries? why should they all of a sudden break enraged about someone is flaming the essence of their proud religion?

Flaming a war against these obscure lame cartoons only make people want to find them more, only gives publicity to an unworthy product and incompetent journalism. People should simply look at American media and English media, the products of the two leading forces behind the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and you wouldn't see a disrespect in cartoonish form to Islam.

Moreover, I read somewhere that the Queen of Danmark had spoken to the danes that the nation should show its opposition to Islam. Soon after, the newspaper released the cartoons. There is always a cause to some action. Here, I see clearly that the Queen encouraged such journalism act. And bear in mind that the Queen sits on some committe of Chritian churches in Danmark, and before she uttered her infamous statement she should have known that christian church has more respect for Islam.

Honestly, God must be still watching over us, and he continues to send us lessons.. from 911, to Tsunami, to Kathrina, to these cartoons.. every lesson is meant to wake us up in hopes we take back our religion by reviving it again, not by starting and encouraging political, economic and racial wars.

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12:03 am    February 5, 2006

Adnane Ben. message
16
Well, I don't really have a strong opinion about these cartoons. I feel sort of neutral, indifferent, maybe even unmoved. I don't think I feel an anger, so maybe, maybe I am missing some more information about the cartoon story. Some of the cartoons are not professional and I don't think people should have made such a big fuss about it.

We are a generation that has become more and more visual, we expect media to express itself in such visual ways.

This episode is similar to the flushing of Quran in Guantanamo jails, similar to Salman Rushdie's Satanic verses, similar to Nike's running shoe with a design motif that coincided with something similar to the world "Allah"... all of these episodes had one common thing with me: I was neutral, I was indifferent, I wasn't angry, or as angry as I've heard people were. I just didn't find enough reason to be. This stuff is not shocking for me. I chose to ignore such things. The people that initiate these actions most likely seek to be on the spotlight. I don't want to be the spotlight director. Let them go at it, cough off all what they have to say, at the end they wouldn't have changed the substance of who I am, who you are, who Prophet Mohammed is, who God is, what Islam stands for.

So, as to what the cartoons mean, the only one I found a bit "artistic" and print-material were the one with the guy before the two ladies, and the one with the guy telling the line of people that we've ran out of virgins.

Honestly, these cartoons are nothing compared to what I've seen before on a Hindou web site which I totally lost the URL. The site had a complete comic strip, about 20 storyboards about prophet Mohammed. The comic was apparently created by people who didn't like the prophet and Muslims. That was shocking to me, but I still didn't get angry. I don't believe anger is the best approach.. at anytime.

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10:30 pm    February 4, 2006

Aziz Bezza message
15
13
answer of #2 is stated on #6 of your own previous posting.
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10:25 pm    February 4, 2006

Aziz Bezza message
14
12
I cannot answer the question"wether the qoran justifies suicide b or not" i hope Not. I am not a religious scholar and Iam not looking forward to becoming one.

let me just clear some of your bias, why do you focus on males suicide boom getting 72V. what would a female boom get?
and it's good to analize conflicts but why do you hold only the western view? by agreeing on how the media conveys problems.
isn't it better to be independent thinker?
there is two sides or more to every story.
are you denying the fact that muslims are targeted even since 9/11. or it's some kind of selfdenial that you want to detach from what is happening.
and last please give us you own readings of these caricatures, meaning what you understood from them beside the argument of freedom of gossip.
peace,

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9:48 pm    February 4, 2006
resunifaw
13
To all raioosters:

Let's put our heads together and anayze the meaning of each one of the 12 cartoons located in this link:

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Gallery/Mo_Cartoons.jpg

01. Cartoon #11 shows a person with a bomb on his head and "There's no God But Allah, Mohammed is his prophet" written on the forehead.

02. Does it say somewhere that this person is Prophet Mohammed?

03. Does the bomb mean that the person is a terrorist?

04. Does it mean that the west is putting bombs on the Muslims heads?

05. Cartton #1, shows a bearded person pulling a donkey and holding a stick. There is a red circle shape in front. What is the point of this cartoon? Am I missing something? Please help clarify!

06. Cartton #2 shows a person with horns. Again, is this Prophet Mohammed? does it mean that the person is "dumb", an "animal", etc...

07. Adnane: You are the artist here, help us with these 12 cartoons. What the hell do each one of them mean?

08. I do not want to start participating in protests and boycots without fully understanding what I am doing.

09. Let's analyze! After all, The Holy Koran says:

"And follow not that of which you have not the knowledge; surely the hearing and the sight and the heart, all of these, shall be questioned about that." (Quran, 17:36)

10. Peace

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9:28 pm    February 4, 2006
resunifaw
12
11
Dear aziz:

quote:

"the story of 72 virgins is true but my question to you is it the sole motivation?"

1. This is a cycle of a suicide bomber in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict:

A. Palesinians riot and demand an end to occupation and a better daily life.

B. Israel responds by shooting down some Palestinians.

C. A Palestinian person is pissed off because he or she has just lost a mother, father, brother, sister, cousin, or just a friend.

D. The 72 virgins promoters (i.e, the so called religious people looking for desperate Palestinians) get hold of the person from step "C" above and convince him that "An eye for an eye" is the way to go.

E. The person from step "C" is now very much aware that 72 Scooby snacks (virgins) taste delicious.

F. The person from step "C" blows himself or herself in a restaurant or bus where innocent people are gathering.

G. Israel goes back to step "B" above and the cycle of the violence continues!

2. So, to answer your question, I understand why the person in step "C" did what he or she did (occupation and the loss of loved ones due to the occupiers' guns is a root cause to the suicide bomber problems)

3. The ramifications of the suicide bomber phenomenon is that "Hadith" is used as a justification or reward for suicide bombers.

4. This means that, in the eyes of the westerners, Islam promotes suicide bombers. And since suicide bombers terrorize civilians, this is an act of terrorism.

5. The conclusion by the western world is: Islam = terrorism.

6. And the result is the cartoon depicting Prophet Mohammed with a bomb on his head.

7. So, the question right now is very simple: Does the Holy Quoran (No Hadith please) justify the "suicide bomber phenomenon"?

8. Peace!

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4:23 pm    February 4, 2006

Aziz Bezza message
11
9
Dear resunifaw,
I have checked the caricatures, did you see the one before the last. that portrays the prophet with a turban bomb. as i said before it is a picture of a symbol of islam depicted as a terrorist. I think its a clear message of hate and bigotry wrapt up in the freedom of expression. in other words this message is saying all followers of mohamed are followers of terror i hope you get it this time. it is very wrong because my father ain't a terrorist.
with respect to suicide bombers as despicable as the act might be, it should be deplored by all humans for its barbaric results. however, it is a suicide and only the perpetrator can explain his/her motives. the story of 72 virgins is true but my question to you is it the sole motivation?
·

1:29 pm    February 4, 2006
souhaima
10
Rasta,
I also find it hard to make up my mind about this issue. As someone had mentioned before, the Muslim world didn?t turn upside down for any caricature depiction of other prophets or even God (a point that certainly doesn?t help us). Muslims get killed left and right and everyone turns the page, changes the channel and goes on with their lives.
Yes, there is a political/racist/hypocrite/insulting/ridiculing/offending statement there, and I?m glad to see the Arab world united and agreeing about something for a change, but I feel like we?ve been tricked into showing the world that we are intolerant.
The Danish newspapers on behalf of the Danish government et al succeeded in reinforcing the stereotype. I?m glad the Muslim world reacted but I wish they would react about other things. The word ?caricature? means misrepresentation after all.
The worlds? perception of us as terrorists as been expressed in many ways and will haunt us for I don?t how long. Maybe till we have a voice in every government.
·

11:34 am    February 4, 2006
resunifaw
9
5
Dear aziz,

1. Here's the link to the 12 cartoons:

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Gallery/Mo_Cartoons.jpg

2. Which of the 12 cartoons is bad and why? Start counting from the top one as number one.

3. Just to give you an example, the nuber 5 cartoon with the caption : "Stop, stop we ran out of virgins" is making fun of those people who blow themselves up under the execuse that "Allah will give them 72 virgins and they will go to paradise".

4. So, for me, this cartoon has a point: Dudes, stop blowing yourselves up because you want to have sex with virgins! Allah does not want people to kill innocent people (a worker in a bus or a mother in a refugee camp!).

5. It seems that the main argument agains these cartoons is this: The west is trying to say: Islam = Terrorism. Is that true or are we, Muslims, just making noise about nothing?

6. Peace

·

7:11 am    February 4, 2006

Rasta Gnawi message
8
The contradictions hidden in the folds of this issue are embarassing to Europeans since the freedom of speech argument seems to be applied selectively. Say enything you want except for this subject or relating to this group. So I just laugh it out of my mind. Mohammed 3alayhi ssalam was greater than to be offended by a little cartoon in a little country.

I received this email today. It helped me get over it. Here is the link. Know him better :)

http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/quote1.html#irving2

·

5:20 pm    February 3, 2006

hudhud message
7
6
the race AND the religion.
·

4:56 pm    February 3, 2006

Aziz Bezza message
6
it's unfortunate that we are living in a time where any threat of terror is taken seriously. and wether we accept it or not the image of terror is related to muslim faces, therefore pictures of jesus or moses do not reinforce the steriotape of " a muslim terrorist". the caricature of the prophet mohamed does.
again Iam bothered by the racist message and not the religious aspect of it.
·

4:25 pm    February 3, 2006

Aziz Bezza message
5
3
this is not freedom of speech by any means.**** you have said it yourself, a cartoon is a form of expression just like words, music, theater..etc. its purpose is to deliver a message to the public. I am still trying to find the messages carried in these cartoons. a picture of a prophet( a symbol of islam)with a bomb on his head!!//??.
i wouldn't mined a public figure in the arab/islamic world shown that way, but in this case the message is clear.
are they saying islam=terror, if that's the case as far as reason is concerned this is hate directed towards a minority living within a democratic nation. Now remember one of the basic ideas of democracy " the majority rules with the protection of the minority's rights".
these cartoons are flatout aimed to demonize muslims who constitute the minority in the danish society. and so did hitler, who was by the way elected, to the german minority. he underwent a propaganda depicting jews as unecessary parasite in their society.
this is a question of comon sense not freedom of speech as the european press claims.
my friend, you do not have to be strong on religion to detect this kind of hate hidden under cartoonic satire.
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11:50 am    February 3, 2006

hudhud message
4
3
i'd like to see that..
"ask the Danish newspaper to publish a cartoon showing Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed holding hands together with the following statement above their heads: ?WE ARE PROPHETS. WE ARE MUSLIMS.?
·

11:20 am    February 3, 2006
resunifaw
3
01. First of all, thanks for this topic.

02. For those of you who have not seen the HOLY cartoons yet, here is the link:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e9/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_drawings.png

03. I read the article about Europe, Jews, Muslims, and hypocrisy. It?s a very interesting article.

04. Now let?s analyze!

05. The Holy Koran DOES NOT say anything about prohibiting cartoons or drawings of Mohammed, Allah, Jesus, etc?

06. The Hadith collections have many ?Sahih Hadiths? about pictures of your passports as Haram:

===============================
(Bukhari: Book #34, Hadith #440)

Narrated Aun bin Abu Juhaifa: I saw my father buying a slave whose profession was cupping, and ordered that his instruments (of cupping) be broken. I asked him the reason for doing so. He replied, "Allah's Apostle prohibited taking money for blood, the price of a dog, and the earnings of a slave-girl by prostitution; he cursed her who tattoos and her who gets tattooed, the eater of Riba (usury), and the maker of pictures."

===============================
Bukhari: (Book #54, Hadith #539)

Narrated Abu Talha: The Prophet said, "Angels do not enter a house witch has either a dog or a picture in it."

07. So, based on the Holy Koran, the cartoons are allowed. Based on the Hadiths we are all going to Hell because I happen to have a passport to go to Hajj in Saudi Arabia.

08. Now, let?s talk about the cartoons themselves: I looked at them many times and the only valid conclusion I came to is this: They suck! I typically look at cartoons so that I can either laugh or get some political message out of them, but these specific cartoons seem to be as flat as a ?flat coke? bought from a McDonald?s drive-through.

09. Now, let?s talk freedom of speech. As a Muslim who is secure in his Islam, I support the Danish newspaper 100% for publishing these cartoons. (OK: go ahead and call me bad names, I deserve that!)

10. ALL Muslims living in the western world do not protest Saturday Night Live episodes depicting Jesus, Moses, etc?in a funny or ridicule way. There are also thousands of cartoons making fun of Jesus, Moses, etc?Muslims have been silent (Hypocrisy?)

11. The protests and boycotts we are witnessing across the ?Islamic World? are good, but for the wrong reasons. How about if these protests are extended to the war on Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine, etc?That will be very interesting indeed!

12. By the way, the picture of Prophet Mohammed holding a sword in front of two women does not have a caption. Here are possible captions (interpretations):

A. ?Muslims must protect women?
B. ?These are my women. Any questions??
C. ?If you touch my women, I will kill you?
D. ?I need these two women to complete my four wives duty?
E. ?In Islam: TWO Women = ONE man. Any questions?

13. So, it?s a matter of interpretation when it comes to cartoons.

14. The current Muslim noise and bluhaha in the streets of the western world proves to the westerners that Muslims are nuts! And that Muslims have many push buttons to get them to make fun of themselves!

15. If I were in charge of the Muslims in the western world, this is how I will react to the Danish newspaper cartoons:

I will raise money and ask the Danish newspaper to publish a cartoon showing Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed holding hands together with the following statement above their heads: ?WE ARE PROPHETS. WE ARE MUSLIMS.?

16. Peace!

·

12:59 pm    February 2, 2006

Adnane Ben. message
2
I saw the other day a quick ad on G4 for a boxing or wrestling, forgot, video game depicting Prophet Mohammed fighting against Moses, or Jesus.. and of course there are other fighter characters from all walks like usual. So this time, they went a bit religious in their new character selection. I can only imagine this video game will make a huge headline.. but haven't heard anything yet.. so was I dreaming? I am pretty sure I saw it!!
·

12:04 pm    February 2, 2006

hudhud message
1
this week my inbox has been *flooded* with emails about this.. i am kind of annoyed with everyone involved, for a number of reasons..
1. yes there is freedom of speech and press, and if someone wants to draw a cartoon mocking anyone or anything they can certainly do that. people have the right to express their opinion.
2. however, there is certainly an inherent hypocrisy as the article you referenced points out. furthermore, there is already a very tense atmosphere surrounding this topic in europe, and it would not be unrealistic to assume that any editor publishing such cartoons most certainly will realize that they will provoke a lot of anger and indignation. perhaps that was the goal. the recent rioting and tensions in france and elsewhere are still fresh on europe's mind. don't tell me these editors don't know what they're doing. they certainly have the experience to know how to manipulate people's emotions and provoke reactions. (never underestimate the power of the pen)
3. if so many muslim countries truly are upset about this, why not try the boycott technique? it can actually be quite effective. pulling ambassadors and demanding an apology is one powerful statement, but adding that to an immediate pause or halt (even if just temporary) in trade with that country would be even more effective while they evaluate the situation and continue diplomatic discussions on how that country should fix the situation. pinch where it hurts: $$$.
·

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2002
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