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Adnane Ben.
Boston USA
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The Mosque: Torn between Present and Past
12:00:00 AM Monday Oct 20, 2003

By Adnane (Raioo)

Compared to Morocco, mosques in the USA bear no resemblance, and we are not talking about architecture and design. Sometimes I wonder about the role of mosques in Morocco. All they seem to be is places that open and close for the daily prayers. In contrast, mosques in the west are the meeting point of the community, to pray, to learn more about the religion, to socialize, to organize picnics, parties, to launch community projects, to raise funds to build schools, to help the needy, to teach Arabic, to provide space for marriage ceremonies, for funerals, to host debates about civic issues, to invite members of other religions, etc.

So a couple of questions I may ask:

1. Does the role of a Mosque change with the environment it's in (country, city size..)?

2. Does the educational role of the Mosque shrinks when it is surrounded by a governing educational system?

3. In Morocco, if the mosque had a tongue would it protest and ask people to restore its identity and true role in society ? and what would be this new role?

Recently, the Spanish muslims celebrated the opening of a new mosque in Granada, their first mosque in 500 years. I can only imagine this mosque as another empowered entity, like mosques in America, to better people.

The content of this page —graphics, text and other elements—is © Copyright 2007 prospective author, and Raioo, Inc., only when stated otherwise, and may not be reprinted or retransmitted in whole or in part without the expressed written consent of the publisher.

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8:49 am    October 29, 2003
sister mb i am like you:)Sometimes i am wondering why am i eating my soup in my cafateria at work, like an orphan?mummy daddy my sister i miss them..miss the way the time was passing in morroco.It is like if i were in another dimension!
Then i remember unemployment and i go on eating my shebbakya lonely.

2:31 pm    October 26, 2003
Dear Anonymous:

1. There is a big problem for Muslims in North America, which is their inability to pray during Salat Eid-Al-Fitr. If Eid happens to be on a Monday, and they do not know it yet, they are unable to schedule their vacation to celebrate this holiday

2. I am not talking about the Professional Muslims (those with professional jobs). These guys can take the Eid-Day off very easily.

3. The problem is with blue color Muslims, working on Minimum wage jobs. These Muslims do not have flexibility in their jobs and end up missing the Eid Salat altogether

4. Also, when you have kids in public schools (99% of the Muslims!), these kids just do not enjoy having to miss school in order to go to the Mosque and then having to catch up on their homework. Especially when you have 4 kids with homework. It?s very hard to do.

5. And the other important thing is that when some Muslim kids take the day off, in general, they do not have neighborhood kids available to play with because everybody else is at school.

6. Some Muslims just go back home to celebrate Ramadan in order not to have to deal with the problems in North America. The problem is Kids missing school and having to make it up.

7. The purpose of Ramadan is to fast, to pray, to celebrate, to enjoy, to say greeting to the neighbors, to exchange gifts during Eid, to love one another, etc?.

8. All in all, Islam should adapt to its environment instead of just sticking with formulas that just do not work in the west.

Jazaakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam


2:13 pm    October 26, 2003
Dear Anonymous:

1. If Ramadan was to be fixed on December-1 to December-31 and Eid-Al-Fitr will be fixed on January-1, this will definitely generate a lot of good things for the Muslims:

1. December is the month where a lot of schools are on Holidays. This will allow the Muslim students to attend mosques more frequently.

2. Since a lot of Muslims in North America congratulate their Christian friends with "Merry Christmas", these friends will be aware of Ramadan and will reply back with "Happy Ramadan" and "Happy Eid".

3. Just like Chanukah and Kwanza, I think that Jews and African Americans were very smart in positioning their holidays to coincide with Christmas and December. Their strategy is paying off because everybody knows what Chanukah and Kwanza are.

4. I do think the American media will definitely pick up on Ramadan and Eid-Al-Fitr during the Christmas season.

5. Having Eid-Al-Fitr positioned on January-1 will allow the Muslims in North America to participate in the celebration of Eid-Al-Fitr along their Christian neighbors.

6. This will definitely help the Muslims adapt Islam to the necessities of living in North America.

7. Since the Christian and Jewish kids get gifts during Christmas, Chanukah, and New Year?s Day, imagine the joy of Muslim kids being able to celebrate Eid with gifts on New Year?s Day.

Jazaakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam


9:53 am    October 26, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
Adnane, thanks for deleting the two messages , from Moha and malcom x, where they were cursing, MB, the Prophet(PBUH) and Allah...,

Regarding changing Time , I don`t think it will work , why do we have to go by their way?? some people do care about muslim holidays, and they do exist in the calendar, instead of changing time for the north americans , wich will lead to a confusion in laylat al9adr, and other things as well, wa9fet 3arafat fel 7ajj......, etc...
why don`t we uunify the first day of ramadan, as MB said, there are some researches about this and they found out that now they can scientifically know when the first of ramadan will be in the whole earth, so probably that is one the good things that will happen to muslims nowadays so we will all fast on the same day, celebrate on the same day.....,


8:47 am    October 26, 2003
nice idea but i don t know if that would doing that u think that it will push the "media" give more time or importance to islam in the american society ...yes that could happen if the media was not owned by the dominant group here in the state....and the dominant group in U.S are mostly non muslim white men... some are jewish with power...and these groups will not allow that ( maybe) because that does not serve their interest ...of course u also talk about the black community...that get some attention from the media...but that s because it is politically correct( they are listed in the minority group) ...we don t really focus on good things about them ...not as much as they do for jews and christians anyway....

8:13 am    October 26, 2003
Hello everyone: Ramadan Moubarak!.

1. Every year, the Muslims of North America are confused about the start of Ramadan

2. Some, people fast with Saudia, some with their own country of origin, some just do not fast at all

3. I have a proposition: In North America, let's change the starting date of Ramadan from our Hijri calendar to the North American calendar. So let's FIX Ramadan to start on December-1 and ends on December-31 every year. And Eid-al-Fitr on January First!

4. The benefits of doing Ramadan this way are: December is the month where North Americans celebrate Christmas, Chanukah (Jews), and KWANZA (African Americans). We Muslims are not mentioned on the American media and ignored all-together.

5. So, if Ramadan and Eid-Al-Fitr are made to coincide in December with the rest of the American communities, this will expose Islam, Ramadan, Eid, and the Muslims in America. This will definitely generate good interest in Islam.

6. I know that the Muslims in North America (and other European countries) feel that no body cares about their Ramadan and their Fasting. They also feel uncomfortable seeing others enjoying the spirit of Christmas, Chanukah, etc?while they are standing on the sidelines.

7. Yes, the traditionalist Muslims are going to respond to this proposal with Koran and Hadeeth verses, etc..(I heard it all before), but seriously, is this a good idea?pros?cons?

Jazaakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam


8:23 pm    October 25, 2003
why can t we all start ramadan at the same time???? i always found it weird....can t science tell us when ramadan starts and ends...????? it is really weired....!!!!
ramadan .....i miss home, i miss ramadan f casa :(((((...avec mama et papa:(((( ....miss les films egyptiens a l heure du ftour..used to love the way have u guys ever seen the show " al 3aila" ( the family in arabic)...that was a good one ...they were talking about the begining of integrism in egypt....loved it...whaaaaaat am i doing heeeeeeere!!! feel like taking my ticket from my drawer and go to the airport...if my dad wasn t gonna kick my ass i would have left long time ago :((((
encore une fois mabrouk 3ouacherkoum ...

6:00 pm    October 25, 2003
Ramadan in America just don't have the same feeling like back home.If you're going to break the fast in McDonald you may as well beak your fast with bacon and eggs.

5:20 pm    October 25, 2003
i've been waiting for a topic specifically for Ramadan to send my best wishes but it wasn't created so I am just gonna do it here (sorry it's off topic) Ramadan mbarak masshoud 3ala el jami3 ou allah y dakhlou a3likoum bssa7a o salama...It's on Monday by the way here in DC.....

4:26 pm    October 25, 2003
Ramadan Mbrouk Everyone
why everybody posting off topic, this is not a sport second,and who care about notre dame or red sox
Let's talk about Ramadan ,who's planning to do it,and who's planning to skip it this year

2:33 pm    October 25, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
Sorry Notre Dame, but Boston is more Irish than Notre Dame :)

12:47 pm    October 25, 2003
ND 25 - 27 BC ... Final Score ... good game Eagles fans ... but still proud ND fan ... Go Irishh ;) ...ND-BC games are always played till the last second ... just like today... The most memorable ND-BC game was the 1993 game, when the eagles scored a last second field goal, ending NotreDame's hope for a national championship... once again good dame ;) and Go IrishHhhHH

12:01 pm    October 25, 2003
the yankees stole the 7'th game from the Red Sox and im still not over it yet.
im gonna have a bad Ramadan ,even if Florida wins the game tonight.

Sorry, i hate the yankees.


10:35 am    October 25, 2003
salam o3alaykom !
ramadan moubarak !!

9:37 am    October 25, 2003
"assalato khayroun mina anawm" maybe for some few fanatics,but the majority of people want to sleep 'cause they have to go to work the next day.Most moroccans already have a hard life,why Allah want to make their lif even harder? answer the question Nego
the Saudi have oil that's why they can afford to close business ond government offices 5 times a day for prayer,wait until their oil dry up,and see if allah will help them again

9:29 am    October 25, 2003

abdelilah message
We are not talking about adhan in Muslim countries but about adhan in non-muslim countries that some people want to establish scaring those who do not belong to that paradigm.

9:26 am    October 25, 2003
Go Irishhhhhhhh ... Notre Dame leading 3-0 in first quarter ... Let's Go Irishh ... Let's Go Irish ...
Cheer, cheer for Old Notre Dame
Wake up the echoes cheering her name,
Send the volley cheer on high,
Shake down the thunder from the sky,
What though the odds be great or small
Old Notre Dame will win over all,
While her loyal sons are marching
Onward to Victory.

The oldest and most famous college marching band ... let's kick some a$$ ... Go Irishhhh


8:38 am    October 25, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
I understand you are talking about the adhan with loud speakers, but you think in these days if the muaddhin calls to prayer without using a speaker people will hear him??? with today`s noise(cars+ motos+ people) .
But the Point is TO WAKE UP PEOPLE, the muaddhin have to say ASSALATOU KHAYROUN MINA ANNAWM IN THE FAHR PRAYER, so people can hear him,

MB, I`m Glad you like the adhan, and i understand your point , for the Non Muslim tourists, they should let them know before that it is part of our culture, if they want it it`s fine if not you give them a room that is not near the mosuqe, or they can approve the quality of the rooms so the (Noise) won`t get to them...
And try to have good quality speakers as well....,
But we shouldn`t ban the adhan because of the tourists....


5:15 am    October 25, 2003

Antr McShaddad (Yahia.L) message
" les gents qui se trouvent perturbes par el adhan ne meritent pas d'etre des vivants."

-Vas y, lance une Fatwa d'execution !

"mieu pour eux de se cacher et d'avoir honte de dire qu'ils sont des marocains(musulmans)."

-Tu n'as aucune authorite' de dire qui est
musulman et qui ne l'es pas.
D'ailleurs, tes delires sont hors sujet .
Essaye de critiquer les idees , et non pas les personnes !

"pourquoi ne sont ils pas genes par les hontises qu'ils voient, entendent toute la journee? soiiez fiers d'etre musulmans "

-Hors sujet ...
You are missing the point anyways.


5:05 am    October 25, 2003

Antr McShaddad (Yahia.L) message
" If you want to stop the adhan in the muslim countries, i wouldn`t be surprise if we say one day that Ramadan makes people tired they don`t work hard, jobs don`t get done...., so let`s make it optional for who ever wants to "

-The issue I am talking about is Adhan with LOUD SPEAKERS. I am not advocating forbidding Adhan .
I like hearing the Adhan echoing from far away too, but when a loud speaker is oriented towards a sleeping room, don't tell me that it does not disturb a normal human being...
During the days of the prophete, they were not using speakers, why don't they follow the same exemple ?


4:51 am    October 25, 2003

abdelilah message
Rasta Garcia,
Thank you for your message which is well taken. I was not building a cultural genetic argument that deems certain areas backward inherently but it was a descriptive stance on what the muslim Umma looks like. I like al Jabri's nakd al 3akl al 3arabi and al #aroui's views. However, I do not share your view that those two scholars are immune from orientalism. Taha Abderrahmane, the famous Moroccan philosopher, has deconstructed al Jabri's model and has shown how it is foreign to the Islamic internal paradigm. Laroui has problems with Mahdi Elmandjra for the same reason namely taking Enlightenment and French Revolution as our model. Arkoun does some work in that sentence but it desacralizes the sacred.

10:25 pm    October 24, 2003
rasta garcia,
from the way u submited ur message i ve a feeling that i know name is rachid and i live in raleigh, north carolina.
i really like ur message and its the first time i heard somebody who metion our great Al3aroui and El Jabri...they are great thinkers even they don't critisize each other
nice to know u

9:18 pm    October 24, 2003

Rasta Gnawi message
Man, what's with the word "pathology!?" 'Pathologically pathetic," "pathological takhallouf," ... I had to look the word up to make sure I was not missing the all illusive answer to our problems. There is no backwardness in these people's genes. There is only a deadly mix of poverty, injustice and social inequality that changes the psychology of outlier fragments of society. Because their psychology has been altered due to strained circumstances, we now go around and speak of "our" pathological takhallouf. The extreme state of a few now has us look not critically but contemptly at our collective self.

Before Pipes even engaged in his hateful crusade against mainstream Islam, people like Al3aroui and El Jabri had embarked in the more constructive crusade of reconstructing the Arab state-of-mind throughout history. Their work, albeit not overfunded by the unsecure orientalists of the West, goes beyond categorizing people based on the spices they use to make dinner.

In summary, I will urge you to reconsider selling us short like this. There are better things in us than pathology.


7:49 pm    October 24, 2003
bien sure je crois a ce que je dis

7:47 pm    October 24, 2003
tu as mal compris,j'ai dit que bolbol a le droit de vivre mais a Guatamo Bay,je ne croit pas a la peine de mort comme les islamo-fascists.

7:40 pm    October 24, 2003
desolee je viens de relire ce ke tu as ecris t as pas dis k il meritait la mort...sorry!!!
mais je me demande tjs si tu pense a 100 % ce ke tu dis ??

7:36 pm    October 24, 2003
le adan ne me derange pas du tt...( je parlais des clients ki ne sont pas marocains by the way ni musulmans..) bon vu ke je supporte le adan je sais ke je fais partie des gens ki meritent de vivre ....donc je peux dormir sur mes deux oreilles ...oufff!!! kel soulagement.
lah yehdina ....
on a tous droit a la vie!!!

7:29 pm    October 24, 2003
ne meprends pas ma question okay :))...mais t es serieux kand tu dis ke des gens comme bolbol ne meritent pas de vivre??? la plus part des fois je me demande si t es serieux ds tes dires ou pas ... !!!!!???

7:16 pm    October 24, 2003
Les gens comme toi ne merite pas d'etre libre et d'avoir acces a l'internet ,tu doit etre en prison avec tes freres-integristes-terroristes.
Allah a aussi cree Guatanamo Bay

6:49 pm    October 24, 2003
les gents qui se trouvent perturbes par el adhan ne meritent pas d'etre des vivants. mieu pour eux de se cacher et d'avoir honte de dire qu'ils sont des marocains(musulmans). pourquoi ne sont ils pas genes par les hontises qu'ils voient, entendent toute la journee? soiiez fiers d'etre musulmans.

6:18 pm    October 24, 2003
hi man ,u still alive,u have to understand that not everyone get excited like u when they hear the adan,it's annoying especially for people who are on vacation.You can't impose your religion on anybody ,that called tolitarian faschism. anyway happy ramadan to everyone the good and the bad.

5:19 pm    October 24, 2003
there are some ppl who don t really enjoy hearing the adan at 4 in the morning ...i worked in a hotel in marrakesh that was close to the koutoubia....we used to have complains about the noise every day...we had to give discounts most of the time because of that ...i don t mind it actually myself but i understand what antr said....and how the guests felt about it....
ramadan being optional.....well it does affect our productivity....??t??h??t??A????t??ld?????????????B

4:45 pm    October 24, 2003
A Muslima


I wish if I could hear the adhan, that will be great.



2:35 pm    October 24, 2003
Wow !! It seems to me every one in this chat board is an Islamic scholar.
I?m sure where you live now you must like the sound off the bells every hour, and especially the one at midnight and midday a 12 loud ones.
Maybe I?m wrong, you could be living next to a synagogue and you might enjoy the loud horn .

???? ???? ???? ? ???? ???? ???? ???? ? ??? ??? ? ??????? ? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?? ????? ?? ?????


12:45 pm    October 24, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
Out of respect, I would not want to criticize Adhan with loud speakers during ramadan, but for the rest of the year, I am sure that some poeple do suffer from it...
and there is no shame admiting that. ,
especially for the sick and eldery ... and so is Adhan with loud speakers, I doubt that Moaddin ever think of that .
Go ask old people about the adhan and they will tell you it has no price to hear it, it doesn`t bother them, but it helps them..., and as well to sick people, i`m trying to find where i read the effects of ashan on people.

If you want to stop the adhan in the muslim countries, i wouldn`t be surprise if we say one day that Ramadan makes people tired they don`t work hard, jobs don`t get done...., so let`s make it optional for who ever wants to fast.......


12:45 pm    October 24, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
Imagine you are doing the night shift, and you sleep during the day or vice versa, and you happen to live next to a mosque where a moadhin would scream on his mic with loud speakers at the top ....wouldn't that be a problem that would affect the quality of your life ?

Would you just suffer , or would you quite your job or house ?
Who would you trade, an Adhan with loud speakers (though everybody can buy an alarm clocks for few Dirhams), or a society wich has designed a working hours system different from the way they used to be 14 centuries ago ?


11:22 am    October 24, 2003
B.C is gonna kick ass

10:46 am    October 24, 2003
kaynaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaa aaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaa,,walah taandak lha9,,wabnadam li ghalik no,,rah ahafdliya 2words from auxford,wjay yban bihom.

10:38 am    October 24, 2003
Tomorrow Saturday, 11 a.m, Irish of U. of Notre Dame vs. Eagles of Boston College ... one of College football best rivalry ... Let's go Irish .. let's beat BC .. Go Iriiiiiiissssssh ... Proud Notre Dame Fan...

8:00 am    October 24, 2003

abdelilah message
Thx Antr and I totally agree with you. In England, there are some dirty filthy backward Muslims who escaped the authoritarianism of their land to benefit from England's democracy and want to establish khilafa there and already established a mosque with loud speakers annoying non-Muslims.
For some extremists, let me make it clear: I pray and when I hear the mouadhin I wake up and pray, but I am with you in that Islam allows for the respect of other people and adhan was not established in the early days of Meccan society.

5:54 am    October 24, 2003

Antr McShaddad (Yahia.L) message

I heard you say something about the loud Adhan early morning, and that a person should not consider it as a problem .
Let take a practical exemple as to get a clear image.

Imagine you are doing the night shift, and you sleep during the day or vice versa, and you happen to live next to a mosque where a moadhin would scream on his mic with loud speakers at the top ....wouldn't that be a problem that would affect the quality of your life ?
Would you just suffer , or would you quite your job or house ?
Who would you trade, an Adhan with loud speakers (though everybody can buy an alarm clocks for few Dirhams), or a society wich has designed a working hours system different from the way they used to be 14 centuries ago ?

Out of respect, I would not want to criticize Adhan with loud speakers during ramadan, but for the rest of the year, I am sure that some poeple do suffer from it...
and there is no shame admiting that.

Here, there are regulations concerning the noise pollution, Anything that makes noise , would it be a sport club or a factory, must constructed in a such way, so that the amount of leaking decibels would not exceed the allowed limit . Not that I am suggesting an amitation, I am just stating that excessive noise is harmful and unhealthy ... especially for the sick and eldery ... and so is Adhan with loud speakers, I doubt that Moaddin ever think of that ...


5:27 am    October 24, 2003

Antr McShaddad (Yahia.L) message
Ramadan Karim to all of you, I have not finished reading the entire posts but I was intrigued by what Abidou (DC) said in his post 46 .
I consider prayers as an act that could manifest itself in the physical world, if it is accompagned with action.
Nobody understand its mechanism, but from my personal perspective I regard it as a tool that could help a person achieve his immediate tasks, and probably goes beyond that...although I can not prove it step by step .
I consider it like a car component : as to have a nice one, you need a smooth engine, confortable seats, new tires, devices, gadgets etc...
that's what makes a good car a good car...
Likeways, if you are working on a project, you need a focus, a positive attitude, a vision, a plan, perseverance, objectivity need to get fully tuned .
Prayers could be compared to a safe mode hypnosis. It does not harm a person, even if he gets no immediate results.
Maybe a person should keep track on his prayers and actions and make some statistics, maybe some pathern would show up...Instead of expecting immediate unswer for each prayer... besides when a prayer is not unswered, you never know what what else was hidden underneat such a "deception" .

Think of the flapping wings of the batterfly in China and it's effect on an event in Time Square.
Everything that is happening is part of everything... Nothing is wasted .
Prayers could be a catalisor of some sort...As it was mentioned before, serious scientists have seen contraversial results wich suggest that alot of stuff are going on underneat what we perceive ...
Personally, I have no doubt about that .


5:20 am    October 24, 2003

abdelilah message
Congratulations Tarikaz for this good image of your brother's MSA. Adnane, I never claimed objectivity because I am a subject not an object. Philosophically, objectivity is a myth projected unto us by empiricist paradigms. I am a human being with my biases and weaknesses, and I tell people to watch out for them rather than claiming a pseudo-objectivity that is neither possible nor desirable. We should be talking maybe about an objective averaging of subjectivities.
Anonymous, I love John Esposito and Yvonne Haddad but reading Fouad Ajami, Daniel Pipes and schwartz helps us do some self-critique rather than stupidly clinging to our pathological 'takhallouf'.

8:59 pm    October 23, 2003
About MSA clubs, here at the U of Arizona, I d say they are doign a decent job. The negative Wahabi influences that many of you are concerned about are valid. However I still think that club can be guided away from wahabism, if that's wat the members want.

My brother is a clutural director in MSA he's been involved with many jewish and christan groups organizing community services activities for people who need help no matter what their religion they follow .. he sometimes meets some wahabi obstacles , but usually if he has an idea and can pulls it off, he usually gets the support he needs. .. (well i don't know whether they'll still get support if liberal people like my brother become the majority i the club!!)

so i guess the direction of the MSA is determined by their members and what they are interested in doing ..


8:33 pm    October 23, 2003
I'm talking from personal experiance in dealing with the americans muslim community.During my college years I've become member of muslims student association,and i was shocked at their hateful rhetoric toward the usa and the west as a whole. After a while I was told that these guys they follow stict wahabbi doctrine because they get their funding from the Saudi. And later on I've became involved with the american muslim community outside campus,and i noticed the same.So I didn't learn the term wahabbism from the american media.Only after september 11,that Imams start to tone out their hate filled speeches.For exemple during chrismas I heard some wahai imam telling muslims that's it's haram to wish their neighbours merry christmas.How hypocritcal ,considering that greeting during Eid holiday by non-muslims are received with pride.

8:00 pm    October 23, 2003
Pizza maker in NY
hey !
i would like to point out a grammatical mistake in the second question:
Does the educational role of the Mosque SHRINK (not shrinks) when it is surrounded by a governing educational system?
this is a good subject. But? who gives a damn in Morocco? hadouk 3tihou ghi chrab oul flouss ou nsahoum.

LOOOOOL !!!!! take it easy son!


6:57 pm    October 23, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
[.. However, I said that personally I am relieved to be far from MSAs (except perhaps in Ramadan where I go eat from khairat al umma)..]

I'm afraid I have to say your statement above lacks integrity. You go eat from "khayrat umma".. you can't even acknowledge the fact that the Ramadan meals are organized and fascilitated by MSA members - no matter how much you dislike MSA or its members. How about a little objectivity.

I have no idea where you keep saying MSA are sponsored by ahhabism. They are organized by students who some from different countries and walks of life.


5:24 pm    October 23, 2003
Abidou and Mmo,

You might as well start quoting people like Bernard Lewis if you're going to have us read Schwartz's books. When did Wahabism become such a headline issue amongst Muslims? I'll tell you when: when American media failed in its attempt to inculpate Islam as a threat to humanity. Wahabis are a small minority in MSA's. In fact, most Muslims keep away from them specifically because of their absurd tightness, and wahabis are not the kind of people to seek out other non-wahabis. They keep to themselves, talk to each other only, and leave the others be.

Again, your experiences are curious to me simply because they go against what the majority of us have experienced in American campuses. Perhaps things are different in the UK or other countries, or perhaps even in Harvard for that matter. It is not reason enough to condemn MSA's. I am glad, however, that you have a mosq that suits your needs.

As to Mmo equation, or should I say inequality, I'd say you need to walk out of your paradigms and dogmas and see the world as it is and not as some disturbed self-victimizer has inculcated in your head. Just read some of what you've written, and you'll see the appalling trend of conjecture. Count how many in Morocco understand even 5% of what they recite everyday in their prayers then come talk to me about bad imams and followers from distant lands.


4:35 pm    October 23, 2003

abdelilah message
Dear Rasta Garcia,

I respect your opinion but I was speaking from my perspective that I lived with MSA's in three countries, and every argument depends on the context of its holder. I am not forcing my context on you and I respect your successful experience with MSAs. However, I said that personally I am relieved to be far from MSAs (except perhaps in Ramadan where I go eat from khairat al umma) but I go to the mosque that is not affiliated with any group and pray amazing taraweehs in Ramadan. You might read Schwartz' s book "The Two Faces of Islam" about the role of Wahhabism in American campuses.


2:25 pm    October 23, 2003
American Islam =Saudi Islam
Because of saudi petrodolars most books about islam has been written from a wahbbi point of view which insist on outward appareances,like the mandatory Hijab for women and etc.Since most american muslims don't understand arabic they simply follow what the Saudis tell them Islam is.Same thing in Bangladish ,Pakistan and other countries religion for these people consist simply in repeting few sourats of prayers in arabic a language which they generally don't understand So they rely mainly on their Imams for guidance. If their local Imam tell them to go and kill the jews they won't hesitate to do it.

2:11 pm    October 23, 2003

Rasta Gnawi message

Unfortunately you weave an argument based on one person's experience in one MSA out of hundreds or thousands of MSA's. Maybe there was something specific to the argument he witnessed to lead to the tone you exhibited in your post. I think MSAs are havens for muslim students to freely perform their prayers, socialize, and grow their horizons. Obviousely, as student associations, they are free to all and a lot of people representing many trends have access to them. Differences will arise. But we are not talking about high-school students here, we are talking about university students likely to display more restraint.

I've seen plenty non-muslim student associations turn into jokes because of immature behaviour; the curious thing is that they were associations made up of "developed countries" people. I've even saw a student senate turn into redicule as developed countries students started to express themselves in unrestrained ways.

There is no "pathetic pathology" but that of jumping into conclusions and selling ourselves short. MSAs should be nurtured and guided. They look after our students in school, and we should look after them.

I suggest people look up the word "wahan" in the dictionary and judge for themselves whether it applies here.


10:03 am    October 23, 2003

abdelilah message
I am very skeptical of Muslim Student Associations in the States as I have been part of many of them here and in Canada. I have a friend of mine who studied at Harvard and he was telling me one time the true story of a fight between a Pakistani and an Arab and one of them said "kafir' and then raised his hands to say 'Allah akbar' to enter prayer. When one is on campus one is walking in a dveloped country. As soon as one enters MSA fighting starts and money issues raise. Of course, one will always remember the smell of dirty shoes as part of the journey to the MSA. Of course, most of them are financed by Saudis, whose version of Islam is certainly very repelling to Westerners. I am not generalizing but the state of our MSAs is indicative of our pathetic pathology described by the prophet as 'wahan'.

9:40 am    October 23, 2003

je viens de lire ce ke tu as ecris fille dont ever give up....c est certes tres pesant comme situation ...avoir l impression de tourner ds le vide ...tu dis ke tu pense laisser tomber et te concentrer sur tes etudes....mais ce ke tu fais est aussi part of ur studies...u are building ur personality day after day with this kind of task....fais ton boulot comme il faut ....fais ce ke tu pense etre juste ke la religion pense etre juste...en gros il faut essayer de donner une nouvelle image de l islam ...le vrai ...le moderer et effacer cette image de teroriste k ont les gens ds leurs tete...militer avec les socialiste n a rien de grave a mon avis ( mais je comprends le point de vue des etablissment universitaire...)...mais cela depends de ce ke vs voulez faire de votre association ...est ce ke vs la voulez politike ou juste culturelle???!!! anyway...don t give up..!!!


9:08 am    October 23, 2003
Excuse me, talking about students, I'm responsible of a muslim association in my university and belive me it's not evident, in france university is public, and students are from different social classes, religions, political orientation... And because of the palestinian cause, muslim associations were always supported by socialist students and associations, and it became a real problem as many strikes are taking place against the UN and EU position in the middle east, and the university responsibles says that we're the cause of these strikes, while its Socialist students who propose this, and also there's always troubles between muslims and jews in the university, and belive me it's quite difficult to solve such problems and sometimes 'm just thinking of "tout laisser tomber", I do respect every point of view, i do discuss with all the associations in the campus including jewish associations, and other muslims says that "?a sert ? rien" i don't like this negative attitude, what do you think about this? Should I give up and concentrate on my studies?

8:55 am    October 23, 2003

It's evident that Islam will not flourish in a western country if Muslims don't do their best to make it flourish, but we cannot compare 2 different societies, the educational american system is quite diffrent than the french one, I think that they were as much muslims in France in the 60's as in the U.S, or maybe more! But the american muslim community was diffrent, they were student while here most were a low working class, they didn't know many things about their religion as they were "analphabet"!
Pepole are free to practice their religion here but the last few years political debates are taking the place over religious issues, there's so many islamic associations all over the country, but the governement has set up a new concept called "le conseil du culte musulman" et people were elected to represent the muslim community in this conseil , that's under the tutor of the ministry of interior, I think it's a very good thing to have such an organization but the problem is that our co-citizens forgot their main goal and start a running after a chair in this conseil, anyway it's a new experience and i hope that things will be better in the futur! The good thing about this is to have an official interlocculteur instead of having diffrent imams adopting different waves (sunnite, shi3a, wahhabite...)and to stop the influence of extremists at young french muslims that don't know many things about islam and are very influencable, as soon as they meet someone knowing chi soura wola jouj dial l 9oura?n, allah y3aounkoum kamline

8:19 am    October 23, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
Marrakshia, in my opinion the credit for the flourishing of Islam in the USA goes to 2 entities:

1. The freedom to practice religion in the USA.
2. Student muslim associations.

God bless all the students who came in the 1960 and up, who created student muslim associations (Northeastern, BU, MIT, Harvard to name a few in New England, and many others throughout the US). These students planted the flag of Islam on the ground, planted seeds around it, and nurtured it despite their busy schedules and exams. They started with their apartment as offices, then got offices in their campus, always got space to pray everyday and during Friday. Eventually, they raise money from everyone who can give, but especially the rich Muslims in the US. It was always fun going to those fund-raising events. They were able to create Muslim associations beyond campus, buy land, build mosques.

I salute all Muslim students, from all nationalities, who contributed to the development of Islam in the US. I also salute the state and private colleges who respect Islam and cooperate with the students. In the end, one has to appreciate the freedom of worship in the US Constitution.


7:12 am    October 23, 2003
Salamou 3alaaikoum wa 3wacherkoum mabrouka,

Adnan, ur speech about the mosques in the U.S seems just unreal for me , for the simple reason that here in france, where Islam is the second religion! People don't know what's the role of a mosque, maby debates are taking place this days, all the medias are talking about the influence of Islam in the french society, whether girls can be allowed to wear scarf at public schools or not? Many soi-disant "intellectuels" are critisizing our religion in TV at prime time programms and I have never heard about a muslim association who tried to condamn this, especially that those critics are completly false!
In my opinion, the role of a mosque should be adapted to its envirnoment, and to the rules of the country where its stiuated, the role of a mosque in morocco is different than its role in an american or european country, as u said adnane it's a place when the community can meet and share opinions, meals ... And to make those critices stop, I hope that mosques in france will be more opened to women, because nowadays, only few mosques have "un pavillon pour les femmes", so that they will not say anymore Islam is a religion of "soumission de la femme" it's not the case, there's no other religion that respects women as Islam, and I think that the problem in western countries is that we know a lot about them and they know just few about us, I think we assist now a kind of "islamophobie" that''s spreading out and that every muslim should try to give a good representation of his faith by respecting the main rules of Islam whithout excess and explaining le "pourquoi du comment " ? son entourage, encore 3wacherkoum mabrouka! Bon ramadan inshallah!


7:01 am    October 23, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
Matkhafch makayen la dbazz la walou, we are friends and not only via internet......,
he sees things from a different angle than me, that`s the beauty of life, if we were all thinking the same way , there would be no fun in this life......

I was gonna say that i heard somewhere that they found out that alakaaba was the center of the earth ...., walakine Adnane said that i have to present proof, khaliwnni nel99a feen 9riit dakechi wenjibou (source) (^_^)


4:19 am    October 23, 2003

abdelilah message
I love it when you get mad Adnane sarcastically speaking like when you refer to 'nonsense' in your comment. Well, there are many books written by scientists from the quantum generation about those issues. To give you a taste of that you can read Eva meyerovitch book (it is an interview with her) in which she mentions a French physician Beauregard that told her in Fez one day: 'Nous les physiciens on ne peut pas reveler tout notre savoir" because some of it will shock the average mass consumer who is happy living in his/her cocoon. He told her that a cup of tea lifted from the table influences -by a butterfly effect- astrophysical spheres. I highly recommend capra's bok 'The Tao of Physics'.

6:32 pm    October 22, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
Just finished watching a documentary on Mecca and Hajj on PBS... It's a very good documentary I recommend to anyone. It touched me a lot.

5:17 pm    October 22, 2003
hey ADNANE desolee mais c est un off topic...don t get mad at me :(((

GUYS ....

if u do please e mail me . cheers.sorry again adnane.


4:23 pm    October 22, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
[...We are talking about waves and alterations of the environment (look at the butterfly effect)...]

First, who do you refer to by "we". Second, and as I wear my nonsense glasses, I see clearly the statement above. It reminds me of a hoax email I received a while ago saying that earth becomes polarized in Mecca or something like that, because of prayer.

Any scientific proof?


3:56 pm    October 22, 2003

abdelilah message
Whether the rains will fall is not determined by prayers, by any scientific means, at least that's the attitude that people should have. It is determined by environment pressure, seasonal changes etc. The only benefit you get out of praying for the rain in group is to increase your awareness of being part of the whole.

Dear Adnane, I slightly disagree with you on the power of prayer. First of all, the so-called scientific paradigm is not the explanatory framework of all phenomena. Second, we have to specify which 'scientific' lenses we are wearing. Are they Cartesian, Newtonian, Bohrian? Because in fields such as parapsychology and physics of energy we know that a prayer is not a mere ritualistic talking action. We are talking about waves and alterations of the environment (look at the butterfly effect). We know that karamat exist and they are a challenge to normal physical laws. How do they occur? fear of Allah. How do we explain them? not always using Newtonian physics.

And Please matkhasmouch leena hna nta w si Nego rakoum 3zaaz 3leena bjouj men gheer yla katgaddou chi hsabates beenatkoum deeksa3a allah yeslah.


3:25 pm    October 22, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message

This is your Answer :
(wainn toussibhoum 7assanatoun ya9oulou hadihi min 3indi allah, wa in toussibhoum sayi2atoun ya9oulou hadihi min 3indik , 9oull koulloun min 3indi allah FAMALI HA2OULA2I AL9AWMI LAYAKADOUNA YAF9AHOUNA 7ADITAN)

3:08 pm    October 22, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
Adnane, i know you didn`t say that Line and didn`t accuse you in any of my posts, I directed that to MB, because to me it looked like she was making fun of people praying for Rain, if they were doing it every day leaving their jobs and so, i would say the same thing, but when we do salat al2isstiss9a2, once in a while mafiha walou, 3allah ykoun chi wa7ed men douk lmoussaliin sale7 wyesstajeb rebbi l da3wa dialhoum..

3:04 pm    October 22, 2003
Compelled to say something again
OK I knew things were going to be taken out of context.

Regardless, Nego you paraphrased what I said quite incorrectly.

Adnane, having faith is different from believing blindly. I hope you can make that distinction. I am sure there are a lot of people who are smart enough to realize that there must be a higher power responsable for our existance. Yet those same people CANNOT make that spiritual connection with god. Thus we introduce the big factor, that is, faith. Faith is completely different from believing blindly, please do not mix the two or put them in the same category.

Concerning religion, there are only so many things we can prove scientificaly, so until then, should we not believe?
I say let faith come to us as we understand that we cannot relate science to religion (in the sens of proving that a religion is 'right').

Here is an analogy that I hope does justice to what I am trying to clearify. Searching for love; you might parameterize poeple and create a list of what makes 'sens' to you, what you are looking for in a person. Thereafter, you meet a soulmate who completely goes against your list and parameters you initially chose, hence makes no sens yet he/she is the one. Some times we just need to LET IT BE, this is totaly different from giving up.

Ramadan Moubarak


2:51 pm    October 22, 2003
Nego,you basically saying when good things happen that's must be Allah,and when bad things happen it's our fault. so in your religion,u always blame the victim, not fair man.No good

2:51 pm    October 22, 2003
je suis navree si t as compris ca de travers ...mais je ne parlais ke du fait de prier pour la pluie...encore une fois c est beau de croire en quelques chose , c est l espoire fais vivre ...mais ce ke j ai voulu dire c est que notre cher gouvernement appelle a " salat al istiskae" kand ils voient ke meteorologikement la pluie va etre sur nos cotes...donc c est une manipulation car du coup il va pleuvoir ds les jours ki suivent et ceux ki y croient vont dire ah oui c est grace a ns n ai jamais remis en question le fait de suis navree encore du ton ke j ai employe ...ce n est peut etre pas le plus approprie...mais c est tt ce ke je voulais dire ...adnane a compris lui et je suis sure ke d autre l ont fait aussi... et i was not making fun of ppl who pray for the rain ....
oyee!!! u are really giving me hard time nego....:)))

2:36 pm    October 22, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
I will have to say that believing blindly in something is not going to get you far.

I invite those who are comtemplating the easy way of believing blindly in Islam to reconsider. You have a brain, you can dig into it and eventually you will reach a nice convinction about your belief.

Myself, I believe in God for many reasons: the classic questions of who created what's around me, and my unescapable dependency on him when I'm in deep trouble, as well as my admiration for how the pattern of life works in amazing ways: good people usually always end up as heores, bad people always end up getting it in their muscles (fedlou3hom), and finally the beautiful Quran.

But, one trait that is common to all of these things I was able to figure out is: what is the source of absoluteness.

In th search for the absolute, I couldn't find it 100% in humans. Someone's freedom fighter is another's terrorist. Chicken and egg..etc. I reached the conclusion that there has to be some power that GIVES us absoluteness. That power I concluded is God.

He is my guide, my love and my source for absolute wisdom, justice and mercy.


2:29 pm    October 22, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
I didn't say that line, did I?

If you consider praying as a set (like in discrete math). A set of different kinds of prayings: for success, for love, for rain, for snow, for sunshine. MB was only referring to the partial set of "rain".

What you did Nego, is tell MB that she was referring to the whole set of praying, when she said it is silly.


2:13 pm    October 22, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
hahaha they pray even for the rain....isn t that silly....

Adnane can you tell me how did i interpreted this in a bad way??the sentence speaks for it`s self...... awwwwwwwwwwww, ALLAH TOLD US TO PRAY AND ASK HIM FOR EVERY THING EVEN IF WE WORK HARD WE HAVE TO PRAY,
Doesn`t this show that you make fun of those who pray for Rain ????
Unless i don`t read between the lines...., come on take responsibility for what you say...


2:09 pm    October 22, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
Good thinking...
You can chose the short cut and believe blindly in something, or you can chose the route where you can see proofs, i`ve seen so many proofs , and still every day we see something new, Islam is not against science, it encourages science.....

1:45 pm    October 22, 2003
Compeled to say something
The main conflict I see arising in this discussion is very clear.

Islam vs. Iman:

Nego is speaking from faith; you work hard and believe in god to help you. Nego, have a blind faith, not every is blessed to have. He is mostly logical in his arguments but introduces faith in god (which doesn't relate to lot others).
Many people here do not relate to Nego because there is no Blind faith in god, that is, you want purely scientific and logical answers and arguments, just like I always do. Nevertheless, I learned that if I go that route I'd never find what I need, that is complete satisfaction with my religion. Therefore, we have to understand that you cannot understand islam, you can only fall in love with it and somehow you don't care to understand. Primarly like when you fall in love with a person and people ask you "what in the name of god you see in that person? it makes no sens!" and you simply reply "I don't know why, but I know I love that person".

Faith that is, hope you got the point. Upon arguing this point, please make sure you read this point of view thouroughly.


1:35 pm    October 22, 2003
am not against praying either.

1:24 pm    October 22, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
Negotiator, you are interpreting posts of mb and myself with exagerration. Thus opening the door for others to quickly judge us, and label us with anti-praying. Something we are not, at least me.

Praying is great, and only you makes it great between you and God; nobody intefers with your prayers. Someone could help you get that connection with God during prayer, create some sort of stimulus, push, especially in groups (mosque) by reciting Quran well, by reciting prayers that you can understand. What we said is that if one is just mumbling some words, fast, reciting some script, that one doesn't even know what it means, and one goes on calling that a prayer, and thinking that by some sort of magic or miracle one's wishes will get answered (could be good wishes like rain, success, recovery of a sick person.. or could be bad thoughts like failure for someone, taqwass etc), then this is ignorance that can be straightened out.


1:12 pm    October 22, 2003
Lah ebarek fik ....

You cannot sit home and pray God to give you money, NO you have to work for it, and then pray for God,

tu viens de dire exactement ce ke j ai dis ...alors pkoi tu te chokes pas toi meme ....c est bizarre

anyway....ya welad nass...god is not helping anyone...americans and jews...etc got to where they are now because they work not because of god....if u work u get ...if u don t u just don t move on...rah ghadi n7mak ...there is nothing bad about praying ...the wrong thing is to think that prayers can solve your life...that s it....
Malcom X
we are not the only ones that are not "Helped " by forget africans asians...etc why do u center everything around islam???!!!!!


12:55 pm    October 22, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
Why doesn`y God answer our prayers, simply because we don`t fear him, we don`t do what he told us to do, we are muslims yes but only by Name we don`t do what we must do, so that`s why, (la youghayerrou allahou mabi9awmin 7atta youghayyerrou ma bi2anfoussihim) so if we go Back to Allah and start doing good deeds he might answer our prayers, why is he helping the jews , the americans, and the chinese, because these people work hard, and they get rewarded, of course God said if you do good you will get rewarded, even those who don`t believe in Allah he will reward them for their good deeds BUT ONLY here in this life not else where,
For us Muslims it is the truth but we do think that we can do every thing we want and then God will answer our prayers, or that we can do a lot of things only by praying, NO..., that is not the goal of prayers,
The Goal of prayers is to know that every thing that happens to you is by the permission of God, You cannot sit home and pray God to give you money, NO you have to work for it, and then pray for God, THE TWO OF THEM are a MUST.

3wacher mebrouka...


12:40 pm    October 22, 2003
why Allah is not helping Muslims???
He's helping the jews,the americans,and even the chinese,but he can't help muslims
that dosen't make sense to keep praying to him,just a waiste of time

12:00 pm    October 22, 2003
The Man In The Moon
Amine a khouya Nego. This is getting scary, especially with ramadan coming, I noticed a lot of moroccan brothers don't fast. Some of them say that they are on a voyage ( 3ala safar) and that allows them to eat and care less about Ramadan. and Others say that with work and studies they shouldn't fast. Everyone that I asked the reason why they don't fast, they try to give me weird answers. A lot of my peers, young immigrants who live in the states have a twisted view about their religion. I know a friend who used to steal things from his work place, and he justified it saying that the boss is a bad person. Come on, whether he is good or bad, you shouldn't steal in first hand. If we use only our reasoning, just our human thinking we will verge to the side of Islam, cos Islam wants to separate us from animals.
Last year, One pakistani guy used to work with me, I saw him all day smoking and eating, and when the maghreb prayer came, He was the first one to go to the mosque. You know why? because they offer food.
Lah yehdi makhla9 ou safi.

11:39 am    October 22, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
NOT NECCESSARELY, it might be just a Test from God to see what would you do....

I get shoked day after day talking to my fellow moroccans( thank God they are just a minority) regarding their views of religious stuff,
ha lli kaygoul praying for rai is silly
ha lli kaygoul khassna nmen3ou aladhan dial alfajr, cause they can`t sleep....,

Ya rebbi dirlina tawill...


11:15 am    October 22, 2003
alors if sthg bad happens in my life that s because i deserve, because i am not a good person??? is this what you mean????!!!!

10:55 am    October 22, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
Allah can give us Rain without doing any it, he can give us money without having do a move, BUT he so many times asked us to pray, and ask him for every thing, not because he can`t do any thing if we don`t ask, but to show us that we have to do something (tawakkul 3ala allah).
We all know of course (thanks Adnane for the reminder) that : Rain It is determined by environment pressure, seasonal changes etc.
BUT who controls all these things ?? isn`t God ? so what is wrong with asking God to give us Rain? who would you ask?
Just like when you need a raise you ask your boss, you might not get it, because it depends on your work, same with God if you are a good person ,etc,etc, Allah answers the prayers of those who deserve it.
If we the Rain of whatever we asked for, it isn`t because of our prayers it is because of God....,

Adnane, if i Remembered her Name and where i saw that , i would give it to you, BUT i don`t, believe it or not, it is your choice...

I`m sure all of you ask God every day about something, najah, leflouss, sse77a..., if you believe that prayers can grant us something , why do you do it????


10:27 am    October 22, 2003
what i meant by silly is that ppl are manipulated....on appelle tjs a la priere pour la pluie kand la pluie approche de nos cotes...jamais comme par hasard of course apres la priere ben il pleut et les gens se disent ah oui c est grace a nos prieres...donc la priere resouds les problemes....non ...elle le fait pas...rah nessali 7ta ne3ya et je n etudies rien ben je vais pas reussir mon just doesn t work that way....on n a rien en priant sauf peut etre on se libere l esprit ( je sais pas moi ...un truc spirituel plutot ) mais come on priere ammene la pluie ca c est "ridicule" u see what i mean ...j en ai rien a faire ke les gens prient 24 h sur 24 mais k ils pensent pas ke ca resouds le blems de la vie cotidienne.....c est tt....faut pas enduire cha3b en erreur....

10:17 am    October 22, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
Negotiator, I have an observation for you in general, and I hope you take it with good faith. It has to do with references. If you ever had to write a paper you must be intimate with footnotes and/or the references section. Posting messages in raioo.Com is not an exception when it comes to citing references.

Sometimes I fall victim myself of mentioning numbers, statistics, this person said this and this person said that, without giving concrete references (date and time, name of the person, organization, area of speciality, whether the person is an authority in the field..). References increase the weight of your message; better yet, authoritaative references increase the weight far more.

So try, whenever you can, and I'll remember to do the same, to give specific references and if you can show they are authoritative then it's for the better.


10:09 am    October 22, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
Whether the rains will fall is not determined by prayers, by any scientific means, at least that's the attitude that people should have. It is determined by environment pressure, seasonal changes etc. The only benefit you get out of praying for the rain in group is to increase your awareness of being part of the whole. In addition, it's nice to look at it as following Sunna, and prophet Mohammed encouraged people to follow his sunna. However, it is nicier to know the impact of the sunna they are following on themselves so they could enjoy it more, and be able to convince, if they have to, people to follow it.

8:34 am    October 22, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
No it is not silly to pray for the Rain...,
the Prophet (PBUH) did it so it is a sunnah..., a German searcher once said you muslims have every thing to live a good life your prophet left you the way to do every thing the right way even when you go to the bathroom, so tell me it is silly again to say a prayer before you go to the toilet !!!!

I know of Imams that were arrested because they didn`t say a prayer for the king...
And i noticed so many times that people when the imam prays for the king they shut up only few people says ameen, which is Wrong, if they don`t say ameen that means they don`t want God to guide him....
Goulou ameen 3allah wa 3assa ywelli meziane.


7:52 am    October 22, 2003
"even if they pray 24 hours" !!!! well i hope they don t cause that would be losing time...and maybe that s the problem of the muslim world ...they think that by praying they will move forward ...that god will help them cause they pray ...hahaha they pray even for the rain....isn t that silly....

6:43 am    October 22, 2003
salam alaykom,
From my own experience. even in Morocco, mosques are getting a more important role for the society. there u can learn more about islam, also get funds and money to help the community. learn quran, tajwid, hadith and arabic for free! and more...

10:54 pm    October 21, 2003
Hey yo yo in our eligion you're not supposed to ask questions,just follow what Allah said.
And by the way my name is Abdullah which mean Slave Of Allah in our beatiful religion,so don't talk about freedom or democracy that's no good Allah don't like that !!
Slave of Allah (aka Abdul)

9:30 pm    October 21, 2003
Adnane, don't worry about it, you think Allah listen to our prayers. I don't think so, muslims decline started long time ago since 1400 when the spanish kicked the moores out of spain, since then muslims just keek going down further and further. To be honnest with u I see no hope for muslims ,even if they keep praying 24hr a day ,it won't change anything

8:59 pm    October 21, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
I don't think an Imam will be arrested if he doesn't pray for the king.

I've heard prayers for the king, and they were all good prayers. The Imam invites the people to ask God to give the king good guidance in dealing with Morocco's everyday struggles. I see nothing wrong with that.


8:57 pm    October 21, 2003
Muslima,did u know that muslim religion was always interpreted according to the will of the rulers (kings,emirs and prsesidents),for exemple the so-called al-azhar oulamas take their orders directly from President Moubarak,and if an imam in Morocco dosen't fisnish his sermon by praying for our king,our saviour (amir elmoumin) he can be arrested immediately.

8:54 pm    October 21, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
In my humble opinion, it is better if a mosque has a small committee that cares for it. A committee that maintains order, cleaniness and manages the mosque events and finance.

The mosque could have a Imam that carries out the prayers. But it is preferable to have different speakers for the Friday prayer.

Different speakers, from the community itself or visiting from different cities and countries, bring different thoughts, different ideas, different stimulus. They have different tones, different personalities, people may learn more.

Unfortunately, this is not what the mosque model offers in Morocco.


8:04 pm    October 21, 2003
do you know that during the golden days of the muslim empire.. people did (or had) praise the leaders to show bay3a (legance)..

8:01 pm    October 21, 2003
by the way , that women you are talking about turned out not to be a muslim,, she was using that excuse because she had a criminal record she wanted to hide..

7:52 pm    October 21, 2003
sorry,but where is 3awde lile??
wa fine daze 3awde lile imkane c vrai qu'il est en prison,c vraiment la honte si c le cas!!!

6:54 pm    October 21, 2003
A Muslima

I know the difference between f9ih and imam, sometimes people think that it's the same thing while it realy isn't. when I said imams here in usa have more knowlege than ours, I ment it, and the fact that even here in this country saudies are dominating mosques can not be deniable. However, there are many many mosques that are not dominated or sponsered by saudies.

In morocco there is no freedom of speech, we can not talk about anything that distruct the KINGDOM wish. NOT even in the mosques, and if we do so, we will be bound!!!!!

My question is should we praise our MOHAMMAD(S.A.W) or should we praise mohammad.6 in the mosques in order to live in an islamic peaceful atmosphere?



4:03 pm    October 21, 2003
I mean american imams are not more educated than our Imams
Fgih ,is simply someone who memorized the Qu'uran from A to Z,he can lead the prayer,but dosen't mean he qualifys as an Imam who can interpret the Qu'uran

3:57 pm    October 21, 2003
Anonym ,I think american Imams are more educated.Did u know that most mosques here are under saudi control,that why they follow strict wahabbi Islam. Also 99% of book on Islam in america are funded by Saudi petro dollars.That's why you see lot of american muslims more fanatic than native muslims,lf you remember the american muslim women who refused to take off her hijab for a driver license photo,that's Saudi Islam

3:30 pm    October 21, 2003

1. Does the role of a Mosque changes with the environment it's in (country, city size..)?
2. Does the educational role of the Mosque shrinks when it is surrounded by a governing educational system? reply

First of all, I think that the role of the mosque is the same anywhere you are; the question is do we-Moroccans follow these roles? Obviously no, we mostly do not follow what our prophet (s.a.w) said but what our government wants us to know. They want us to be so close-minded and just be followers and not thinkers?..!!!!

Secondly, here in this country, the imam of the mosque is in general a very educated person who has a big knowledge about Islam, but in morocco, the(f9ih) is someone who have learned Koran and that?s it.

I ll continue later,



3:28 pm    October 21, 2003

abdelilah message
Before the advent of terrorism as a trend, mosques were funded and managed privately in Morocco. Now, the system wants its mosques on a servile mode. Z3em takoul lhaam is no more the proverb of today's Morocco. The new proverb guys is z3em takol lehrawa. Saudi Arabia funds most mosques in Morocco and here as well. In rural places there is less control because the phenomenon of activism is a city phenomenon unless one wants to conduct a che Guevara activism for paisanos. i think that mosques change with environments and even hajj and umra Indonesian style is certainly not like the egyptian style.

2:50 pm    October 21, 2003
je pense que c est bien d avoir un certain controle sur ce ki se passe ds nos moskes au maroc contredit fortement ce ke je dis normalement sur la libertee de penser et d expression mais bon y a des fois ou ils faut dire moskes est un endroit de priere et aussi ou on eduke d une certaine facon les gens sur la n oublions pas k il a y a des gosses ki y vont aussi..donc on peut facilement les embobiner avec des idees suis jamais allee ds une moske en tps de priere bien sur ...mais je me rapelle ke sur le chemin de chez moi il y avait une moske et je m arrettais tjs au feu rouge pas tres loin d ou je pouvais entendre ce ke le imam disait et deja je trouvais le discours assez chokant sur les juifs et les us forces en irak ou ailleurs...c est vrai k il y a des injustice ..mais le fait d en parler et de ne pas les expliker peut etre interpreter par un appel a la je ne pense pas ke c est ce k on veut ds un lieu saint.

2:40 pm    October 21, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
But I've seen mosques in Morocco that are funded privately... or were they just built by individuals and then handed over to the government?

2:33 pm    October 21, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
Absolutely right,
In Morocco i used to go to this mosque that had an Imam that used to read the ministry`s khoutba very fast, and then he starts his own.
But in the Villages they don`t , I asked an Imam this summer if they give them a ready khutba he said no, it is only on ocasions when they tell them to speak about something.
oh well maghribouna al7abib...

2:17 pm    October 21, 2003
In morocco, the mosques close 15 minute after prayers time,because the government dosen't want them to become a hotbed of fundamentist activities. In europe and america mosques are privately funded that why they have more freedom to say whaterver they like ,but some of them are under saudi control
Also about the content of friday sermon (khoutba) is written by theministry of religious affairs (wizarat al awqaf) ,so the role of the imam is just to read like a news anouncer (speakers) on TV

12:21 pm    October 21, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
I observed how the Muslim community works in Boston, and one thing that strikes me is the high quality - most of the time - of the mosque services, including the friday prayer speech. Compared to Morocco, it bears no resemblance. Sometimes I wonder about the role of mosques in Morocco.. All they seem to be is places that open and close for just prayers.

So a couple of questions I may ask:

1. Does the role of a Mosque changes with the environment it's in (country, city size..)?

2. Does the educational role of the Mosque shrinks when it is surrounded by a governing educational system?


11:59 am    October 21, 2003

abdelilah message
While immigration is gradually spreading Islam across Europe, a homegrown movement is giving it added momentum in Spain

I liked this article but I do not think that immigration i advancing Islam in any way especially in Spain. What immigrants are we talking about? lehraigiyya dyal khounnaiza land? or the filthy petro-dollars who do a great job in making spaniards run away from Islam, except from the scum lifeless hispanophones in need of some money to survive.
The glory of Islam came from the shining beauty of Sufism and its spiritual attraction resonated with the beautiful Spanish mystical tradition like St Jaques of Compostella. The role of the king of Morocco Hassan II was also great in giving neighboring Spain a taste of Rich Moroccan Muslim history. Al Mutamid Ibn Abbad is buried in Aghmat close to Marrakesh and it would be interesting Adnane to have a subject about him and his beautiful poetry to Itimad his beloved Dulcinea.


Adnane Ben.'s notes (341)
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