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SPIRITUAL
Adnane Ben.
Boston USA
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213
comments.
Pourquoi Islam a du mal ? se vendre dans l'occident?
12:00:00 AM Friday Nov 28, 2003



written by adil from Paris, editted by Adnane (Raioo)

Peut etre qu'aux USA vous n'avez pas ce probl?me mais ici en france, et surtout en ce moment, il y a une grande pol?mique sur la place de l'Islam dans la soci?t?.

Personnellement j'ai du mal ? imaginer l'avenir. L'Islam doit-il s'adapter? ou C'est au soci?t?s occidentales de s'adapter ? l'Islam? Pourquoi notre religion a du mal ? se vendre dans l'occident? Les musulmans (les vrais) sont-ils vraiment racistes? L'Islam incite-il ? mepriser les non-musulmans?

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12:36 am    February 11, 2008
Mary Ann
213
Ai dice parte one hentai piece http://www.foto-perro.trenibuti.info ora fine sexologia dal,.
·

2:26 am    March 5, 2004
Boss-Adil
212
salut tout les freres et soeurs musulman(e)s.moi je voi ke les occidentaux ne vont jamais etre d'acord avec nous $
meme si on suit se k'ils disent , et ca c'est die ds le quoran : WA LAN TARDA 3ALAYKA AL YAHOUDOU WA LA ANNASSARA 7TTA TATTABI3A MILLATAHOUM.
alors vous etes d'acord ou non avec moi?
·

5:29 pm    February 20, 2004
the skyer
211
j ai lu kelk questions tres interessante a propos de l islam et a savoir si il est compatible avec la culture occidentale...si un jour l islam ou les muslmans s adapteront au concepts occidentaux ce sont tous des point d interrogations auquel nul personne ne pourra repondre,seul le temps nous permetra d y repondre...en attendant nous ne pouvons que speculer dans ce domaine sans certitude exacte.
pour le cas de la france, je ne pense pas ke se soit au pays de s adapter a la culture musulmane ,bien k i y ait des francais musulmans ,ceci ne ve en aucun cas dire ke la france devrai le faire. apres longue reflexion il s avere tout a fait que c est au muslmans de s adapter aux valeurs du pays dans lekel ils sont,si l Eglise et l Etat ont et? separ? en 1905 c est bien pour eviter ce genre de polemique qui cree une sorte de mal aise social...ts ces debats ont ?t? provoqu? par le probleme que "poserai" le "voile" ou foular ( je pense que c moin pejoratif ), il reste quand meme allucinant de voir quel ampleur a pris ce probleme si probleme il y a biensur...malgres le fait que la loi soit pass? et qu il y ai des debats en france qui ont provoqu? certaines reactions au seins de la communaut? musulmane,je pense que les musulmans doivent respecter la loi, il ne faut pas oublier que l islam privilegie l enseignement au culte ceci en estimant biensur que le foular fait parti du culte ce ki est loin d etr prouv? par les theologiens, et par consequent je pense qu il fo se soumettre a cette loi et essayer d avaler la pillule meme si cela est probablement dur pour certains
·

9:18 am    February 20, 2004
Simple Moroccan Citizen
210
Thank you for Sharing. Very intersting conversation.
·

11:33 am    February 19, 2004
Mohcine
209

Just want to share this convincing Story

Assis l'un a cote de l'autre, deux messieurs venant de deux mondes
diff?rents....
Les pr?sentations faites, la conversation continue..............


Eric : Je ne crois pas en Dieu, mais plutot ? la Science et ? la
Technologie, quelque chose de tangible, vous voyez, mais
si vous me prouvez que Dieu existe, je pourrais changer d'avis.

Abdellah : D'accord, si vous ?tes int?ress? par la technologie, pouvez
vous r?pondre ? cette question : A propos d'un appareil sophistiqu? ou
d'un objet ?lectronique, qui serait d'apres vous la personne qui
saurait
le plus sur ses m?canismes de fonctionnement?

Eric : Je pense que ce serait la personne qui a invent? ou construit
l'appareil.

Abdellah : On est donc d'accord que c'est la personne qui a construit
l'objet, ou son cr?ateur, qui connait tout ce qu'il y a ? savoir sur
l'objet.

Eric : Je ne vois pas d'objection ? cela. Cela me semble raisonnable.

Abdellah : Parfait. J'ai une autre question ? vous poser : Comment
l'Univers a-t-il ?t? cr???

Eric : D'apres des r?sultats scientifiques r?cents, l'univers tout
entier ?tait une masse gigantesque, qui lors d'une explosion cosmique a
donn? naissance au Soleil et ? la Terre et ? toutes les autres
plan?tes.

Abdellah : Et vous croyez ? cette th?orie?

Eric : Oui, biensur, ce sont des faits ?tablis bas?s sur des preuves
scientifiques. En fait, cette id?e de cr?ation de l'Univers a vu le
jour
en 1973 et a ?t? appel?e la th?orie du "Big Bang".

Abdellah : Je vois. Et bien j'ai une surprise pour vous : dans le Saint
Coran, chapitre 21, verset 30, il est ?crit :

"Ceux qui ont m?cru, n'ont-ils pas vu que les cieux et
la
terre formaient une masse compacte? Ensuite Nous les avons s?par?s et
fait de l'eau toute chose vivante. Ne croiront-ils donc pas ?"

Nous pouvons voir ici que le Saint Coran d?crit la th?orie du Big Bang,
et laissez moi vous rappeler que le Saint Coran a ?t? r?v?l? il y a
1400
ans.

Eric : J'ai tr?s peu entendu parler du Coran, pouvez-vous me
raffra?chir la m?moire?

Abdellah : Bien sur. Les musulmans croient que le Saint Coran est la
parole de Dieu, pure, inalt?r?e, et qu'elle a ete r?v?l?e au Proph?te
Mouhammad (pbsl) par l'Ange Gabriel. La r?v?lation du Saint Coran f?t
compl?t?e en 23 ans, la dur?e de la mission proph?tique de Mouhammad
(pbsl).

Eric : Etes-vous sur que le Saint Coran est vieux de 1400 ans et qu'il
n'a jamais ?t? alt?r??

Abdellah : Absolument, c'est un fait historique que le Saint Coran a
?t?
r?v?l? au 7eme siecle et qu'il est rest? inchang? depuis.
Les historiens, qu'ils soient pour ou contre l'Islam, sont tous
d'accord
sur ce point.

Eric : Dans ce cas, le verset sur le Big Bang n'est peut ?tre que le
fruit du hasard.

Abdellah : ........Que dit la science ? propos de la forme de la Terre?

Eric : Dans le pass?, l'Homme croyait que la Terre ?tait plate jusqu'
?
ce qu'un certain Sir Frances Drake en 1607 ne prouve finalement que la
Terre est sph?rique. Aujourd'hui, le terme G?oide est utilis? pour
d?crire la forme sph?rique de la Terre.

Abdellah : Etonnement, dans le Saint Coran, chapitre 31, verset 29, il
est ?crit :

"N'as-tu pas vu qu'Allah fait p?n?trer la nuit dans le
jour,
et qu'il fait p?n?trer le jour dans la nuit, et qu'Il a assujetti le
soleil et la lune chacun poursuivant sa course jusqu'? un terme fix??"

L'utilisation du mot "p?n?trer" est faite pour insister sur le
caract?re
lent et continu du passage du jour vers la nuit et vice-versa. Et ce
n'est pas possible si la Terre est plate.

Eric : Continuez.

Abdellah : Plus loin, au chapitre 39, verset 5, il est ?crit :

"Il enroule la nuit sur le jour et enroule le
jour
sur la nuit".

Le mot arabe utilis? est "Kaw'wara" qui signifie "anneau" ou
"enrouler".
Ce verbe est utilis? pour decrire le fait d'enrouler quelque chose
autour d'un objet sph?rique. Vous dites que ce fait a ?t? d?couvert
assez r?cemment, alors dites moi qui aurait pu l'ecrire dans le Saint
Coran il y a 1400 ans?

Eric : Je ne suis pas convaincu.

Abdellah : D'accord. Alors dites moi d'ou vient la lumiere de la Lune?

Eric : Il y a quelques siecles, les gens pensaient que la Lune etait
une version miniature du Soleil et que les deux astres ?mettaient de la
lumi?re. Plus tard, des astronomes ont d?couvert que la lune ne faisait
que refl?ter la lumi?re du Soleil.

Abdellah : Dans le Saint Coran, chapitre 25, verset 61, il est ?crit :

"Que soit b?ni Celui qui a plac? au ciel des constellations et y a
plac? un luminaire (le soleil) et aussi une lune ?clairante!"

Ici le Soleil est d?crit comme ?tant une lampe alors que la Lune est
d?crite comme r?fl?chissant la lumiere, ce qui signifie qu'elle n'?met
pas de lumiere d'elle-m?me.

Eric : C'est probablement le fruit du hasard..

Abdellah : Passons...

Quand j'?tais a l'?cole dans les annees 80, mon professeur me disait
que
le Soleil ne bougeait pas et que toutes les plan?tes tournaient autour
le long d'une trajectoire precise pour chaque plan?te.

Eric : C'est ce que dit votre Coran que le Soleil est immobile dans
l'espace? Ahhh!!!

Abdellah : Non, ce n'est pas ?crit dans le Saint Coran. C'est ce que
l'on m'a enseign? a l'?cole.

Eric : Aujourd'hui la science a fait des progres et nous savons qu'en
fait, le Soleil suit lui-meme une trajectoire pr?cise.

Quand on poss?de les instruments adequats, on peut voir qu'? la surface
du Soleil se trouvent des t?ches appel?es "t?ches solaires" ou "spots".
Si on observe d'une mani?re continue ces t?ches solaires, on remarque
qu'il faut 25 jours ? ces t?ches pour revenir au m?me endroit, c'est ?
dire pour que le Soleil compl?te une r?volution sur son axe. On en
conclut donc que le Soleil tourne sur un axe et qu'il compte sa
r?volution en 25 jours.

Abdellah : Je dois vous dire que vous n'apprenez rien aux musulmans car
dans le Saint Coran, chapitre 21, verset 33, il est ?crit :

"Et c'est Lui qui a cr?? la nuit et le jour, le soleil
et
la lune, chacun voguant dans une orbite".

Ici il est ?vident que le Soleil et la Lune ont chacun une trajectoire
qu'ils parcourent dans l'espace.

Pouvez-vous me dire qui aurait pu mettre ces faits scientifiques dans
le
Saint Coran alors que ces faits n'ont ?t? d?couverts que r?cemment par
les scientifiques?

Avant que vous repondiez a ma question, dites moi... y a-t-il une
diff?rence entre une ?toile et une plan?te?

Eric : Oui, aujourd'hui, nous savons que les ?toiles sont des corps
c?lestes comme le soleil, c'est ? dire qu'elles produisent leur propre
rayonnement alors que les plan?tes ne produisent aucun
rayonnement...comme la Terre..

Abdellah : Ici, nous voyons la distinction entre ?toiles et plan?tes
faite dans le Saint Coran, chapitre 86, versets 1 a 3 :

"Par le ciel et par l'astre nocturne. Et qui te dira ce qu'est
l'astre nocturne?", ici r?f?rence est faite aux etoiles.

Les plan?tes sont d?crites comme ?tant des ornements dans le verset 6
du
chapitre 37 :

"Nous avons d?cor? le ciel le plus proche d'un
d?cor :
les ?toiles".

Eric : ................................... Hmmmmmm
.

Tout le monde sait que les Arabes ?taient tres avanc?s dans le domaine
de l'Astronomie, et peut ?tre que ce sont ces astronomes qui ont donn?
ces informations au Proph?te Mouhammad.

Abdellah : Il est vrai que les Arabes ?taient tres avanc?s dans le
domaine de l'Astronomie, mais je suis d?sol? de vous dire que vous vous
trompez d'?poque.

Eric : Que voulez-vous dire?

Abdellah : Je vous rappelle que le Saint Coran a ?t? r?v?l? des siecles
avant que les Arabes ne fassent de grandes d?couvertes en astronomie.
Donc ce sont les Arabes qui ont appris des choses sur l'astronomie en
lisant le Coran et non pas l'inverse.

Le Saint Coran mentionne au Chapitre 30, verset 48 :

"Allah, c'est Lui qui envoie les vents qui soul?vent des nuages;
puis
Il les ?tend dans le ciel comme Il veut; et Il les met en morceaux. Tu
vois alors la pluie sortir de leurs profondeurs. .....".


En parlant de g?ographie, je ne sais pas si vous connaissez le terme
"plissement".

Eric : Oui, vous voyez, la croute terrestre est relativement peu
?paisse et les montagnes, cr??es par ces ph?nom?nes de plissements de
la
cro?te donnent plus de stabilit? ? cette Terre.

Abdellah : Le Saint Coran au chapitre 78, versets 6-7 nous donne une
indication sur ce ph?nom?ne :

"N'avons-Nous pas fait de la terre une couche?
et
(plac?) les montagnes comme des piquets? ".

Ici le mot "piquet" est utilis? pour montrer que les montagnes
permettent de tenir la terre (cro?te) en place, immobile. De plus, la
premiere partie du verset nous montre que la terre n'est pas plate car
c'est une surface ?tendue sans bord, dans le sens o? on peut la
parcourir sans jamais en tomber.

Cette id?e est reprise plus en d?tails au chapitre 21, verset 31 :

"Et Nous avons plac? des montagnes fermes dans la terre,
afin qu'elle ne s'?branle pas en les [entra?nant]".

Ici, on nous dit que les montagnes permettent la stabilit? de la terre
en emp?chant la forme de la terre de changer et de provoquer un
changement d'orbite de la plan?te.

Abdellah : Dans le Saint Coran, il n'y a pas que des fait scientifiques
concernant l'astronomie, mais beaucoup d'autres sujets scientifiques
sont abord?s.

Eric : Je vous ?coute.

Abdellah : Dans plusieurs versets du Saint Coran, des d?tails sont
donn?s sur le cycle de l'eau. Ces versets expliquent que l'eau
s'?vapore
depuis le sol et les cours d'eau pour former des nuages...ces nuages se
condensent, il peut alors y avoir des ?clairs ou des pluies depuis ces
nuages...Ces indications sont clairement ?crites au chapitre 39, verset
21 :

"Ne vois-tu pas qu'Allah fait descendre du ciel de l'eau, puis Il
l'achemine vers des sources dans la terre; ...",

Au chapitre 23, verset 18 :

"Et Nous avons fait descendre l'eau du ciel avec mesure. Puis Nous
l'avons maintenue dans la terre, cependant que Nous sommes bien Capable
de la faire dispara?tre",

et aussi au chapitre 24, verset 43 :

"N'as-tu pas vu qu'Allah pousse les nuages ? Ensuite Il les
r?unit et
Il en fait un amas, et tu vois la pluie sortir de son sein. Et Il fait
descendre du ciel, de la gr?le [provenant] des nuages [comparables] ?
des montagnes....."

Eric : D'apres mes connaissances, le premier sch?ma correct du cycle
de
l'eau f?t pr?sent? par Bernard Palissy en 1580.

Abdellah : Permettez-moi de continuer ...les scientifiques viennent
r?cemment de d?couvrir que l'eau sal?e (marine) et l'eau douce ne se
m?langent pas, n'est-ce-pas?

Eric : Tout a fait.....Ce ph?nom?ne a ?t? observ? ? diff?rents
endroits
de la plan?te.. Par exemple la r?gion o? le Nil rencontre la
M?diterran?e et plus particuli?rement la o? les deux eaux coulent
ensemble sur une distance de quelques milliers de kilom?tres.

Abdellah : Au chapitre 25, verset 53 on peut lire :

"Et c'est Lui qui donne libre cours aux deux mers : l'une douce,
rafra?chissante, l'autre sal?e, am?re. Et Il assigne entre les deux une
zone interm?diaire et un barrage infranchissable".

Un message similaire est trouv? chapitre 55, versets 19 et 20 :

"Il a donn? libre cours aux deux mers pour se rencontrer; il y a
entre elles une barri?re qu'elles ne d?passent pas..."

Eric : Peut-?tre que des Arabes qui nageaient dans la mer ont pu
observer ce ph?nom?ne.

Abdellah : Cela est peu vraisemblable. Ce que vous ne semblez pas
r?aliser est que le Saint Coran dit aussi que c'est une barri?re
invisible et donc qu'il est impossible de l'observer.

Eric : Je vois..... selon Darwin et sa th?orie de l'Evolution, toute
forme de Vie provient de la mer ou des oc?ans. Pouvez-vous me dire ce
que votre Coran dit ? ce propos?

Abdellah : Bien s?r, mais d'abord pouvez-vous me dire pourquoi cette
th?orie conduit ? une telle affirmation que la vie vient de la mer?

Eric : Et bien, une des raisons est que l'eau entre dans la
composition
de la plupart des ?tres, humains et animaux. En fait, le pourcentage
d'eau dans les corps (humains et animaux) varie entre 50 et 90% selon
l'esp?ce.

Abdellah : Au chapitre 21, verset 30, on peut lire :

".......et fait de l'eau toute chose vivante. Ne
croiront-ils donc pas ? "

Vous imaginez dans les d?serts d'Arabie, o? l'eau est si rare, qui
aurait pu deviner que non seulement l'homme mais aussi tous les ?tres
vivants ont ?t?s cr??s ? partir d'eau!

Eric : Je sais que le cytoplasme, le constituent principal des
cellules, est compos? ? peu pres de 80% d'eau et que tous les ?tres
vivants sont en grande partie compos?s d'eau.

Abdellah : Qui aurait pu mentionner ces faits dans le Coran il y a plus
de 1400 ans ?...Il y a plus de cents affirmations dans le Saint Coran
que la Science moderne ne peut contredire. Concernant ces th?ories,
pouvez-vous m'expliquer ce qu'est la d?rive des continents?

Eric : Bien s?r. Tous les continents ?taient r?unis en un seul
continent il y a des millions d'ann?es. Puis ils se sont s?par?s et ont
?t?s ?cart?s les uns des autres ? la surface de la terre. Ainsi, si
vous
regardez une carte du monde, vous pourrez remarquer que la c?te Est
d'Am?rique du Sud peut s'embo?ter avec la c?te Ouest de l'Afrique,
montrant que ces deux continents ne formaient qu'un dans le pass?.

Abdellah : Un fait similaire est r?v?l? dans le Saint Coran au chapitre
79, versets 30 et 31 :

"Et quant ? la terre, apr?s cela, Il l'a ?tendue, Il
a
fait sortir d'elle son eau et son p?turage".

Il est dit que la Terre est pass?e par une ?tape o? Dieu a s?par? les
continents les uns des autres en les faisant d?river.

Eric : Essayez-vous d'utiliser la Science pour prouver que le Coran
est
l'authentique Parole de Dieu ?

Abdellah : Non, le Coran n'est pas un tra?t? scientifique mais plut?t
un
Livre de signes. Il contient plus de 6000 signes (versets) parmi
lesquels 1000 se rapportent ? la Science. Je n'utilise pas la Science
pour prouver que quelque chose est vrai. Pour cela, on a besoin de
quelque chose de parfait, une Science ultime et sans faute.

Pour des hommes ?duqu?s comme vous, qui ne croient pas en Dieu, la
Science est souvent LA v?rit?.....mais pour le musulman, le Saint Coran
est La V?rit? Ultime. Le Coran est aussi appel? le "Furqaan" qui
signifie "crit?re entre le vrai et le faux". Donc j'utilise votre
"V?rit?" qui est la Science pour vous montrer ce que le Coran dit. Ce
que votre Science vous a dit il y a quelques ann?es ou d?cennies, le
Saint Coran l'a dit il y a plus de 1400 ans. Nous pouvons donc ?tre
d'accord sur le fait que le Coran est sup?rieur ? la science et que le
Coran est LA V?rit? Absolue.

Eric : Continuez.

Abdellah : Le Coran dit au chapitre 20, verset 53 :

"... et qui du ciel a fait descendre de l'eau avec laquelle
Nous
faisons germer des couples de plantes de toutes sortes".

Ici le Saint Coran mentionne un fait scientifique qui a ?t? d?couvert
tr?s longtemps apr?s et qui est que la flore est compos?e d'esp?ces
masculines et d'esp?ces f?minines. Ceci est repris au chapitre 13,
verset 3 :

" ........Et de chaque esp?ce de fruits Il y
?tablit deux ?l?ments de couple......"

Abdellah : Dans une branche de la Zoologie, il a r?cemment ?t? annonc?
qu'il existe diff?rentes dynamiques sociales dans le monde animal. Le
Saint Coran nous dit la m?me chose, que les animaux et les oiseaux
vivent en communaut?s. Chapitre 6, verset 38 on peut lire :

"Nulle b?te marchent sur terre, nul oiseau volant de ses ailes,
qui
ne soit comme vous en communaut?....".

Abdellah : Si je vous dis que le Saint Coran nous parle de fourmis qui
parlent l'une ? l'autre, vous allez probablement rire. Mais il a ?t?
prouv? que parmi tous les animaux et insectes, la Fourmi est celle qui
poss?de la communaut? qui ressemble le plus aux ?tres humains. ... en
plus d'un syst?me de communication tr?s avanc?, (comme mentionn? dans
le
Saint Coran, chapitre 27, verset 18), les fourmis enterrent leurs morts
et poss?dent un ?quivalent de ce qu'est un march? boursier.

Eric : Peut-?tre que votre Proph?te ?tait un homme tr?s attentif et
qu'il observait les fourmis.

Abdellah : Tout d'abord, je voudrais vous informer que l'Histoire
t?moigne que le Proph?te Mouhammad (pbsl) ?tait illettr? c'est-?-dire
qu'il n'a suivi aucune ?ducation formelle et ne savait ni lire ni
?crire. En fait, ? cette ?poque, la grande majorit? des Arabes ?tait
illettr?e et seuls quelqu'uns d'entre eux savaient lire et/ou ?crire.

N?anmoins, il est mentionn? dans le Coran que c'est la femelle de
l'abeille qui collecte le miel....

Pensez-vous que quelqu'un aurait pu observer cela?

Je viens juste de me souvenir d'un fait encore plus ?tonnant. Au
chapitre 16, verset 69, on peut lire :

"......De leur ventre, sort une liqueur, aux couleurs
vari?es,
dans laquelle il y a une gu?rison pour les gens. Il y a vraiment l? une
preuve pour des gens qui r?fl?chissent."

Aujourd'hui les scientifiques nous disent que le miel contient des
substances antiseptiques et que son application sur des plaies serait
b?n?fique. De plus, le miel est utilis? dans plusieurs traitements
anti-allergiques.

Eric : C'est la raison pour laquelle les soldats Russes, dans le
pass?,
mettaient du miel sur leurs blessures.
Oui, et leurs blessures gu?rissaient en ne laissant qu'une cicatrice
minime.

Abdellah : Au chapitre 16, verset 66, le Saint Coran d?crit la
circulation sanguine en rapport avec la production de lait chez la
vache
laiti?re......... Mille ans avant que William Harvey ne d?couvre le
ph?nom?ne.

Le verset dit :

"Il y a certes un enseignement pour vous dans les bestiaux:
Nous
vous abreuvons de ce qui est dans leurs ventres, - [un produit] extrait
du [m?lange] des excr?ments [intestinaux] et du sang - un lait pur,
d?licieux pour les buveurs"

Eric : Dites mois..... que dit le Coran sur l'?tre humain?

Abdellah : La r?ponse a cette question est tr?s longue car le Coran
parle des ?tres humains avant m?me leur conception et jusqu'? leur
mort. .....Voulez-vous que je vous parle rapidement d'embryologie
humaine et des faits r?v?l?s dans le Coran?

Eric : Je vous en prie. Cela semble int?ressant.

Abdellah : Nous savons qu'apr?s sa f?condation, l'oeuf (ovule) descend
du tube fallopien pour aller se loger a l'int?rieur de l'ut?rus pour la
p?riode de gestation. Ceci est d?crit au chapitre 22, verset 5 :

"...C'est Nous qui vous avons cr??s de terre, puis
d'une goutte de sperme, puis d'une adh?rence puis d'un embryon
[normalement] form? aussi bien qu'informe pour vous montrer [Notre
Omnipotence] et Nous d?poserons dans les matrices ce que Nous voulons
jusqu'? un terme fix?......".

Comme vous le savez, il existe des structures ou rallongements qui se
d?veloppent ? la surface de l'oeuf pour permettre ? l'oeuf d'?tre
nourri
et de grandir. Ces structures font que l'oeuf ou plut?t le zygote
semble
vraiment s'accrocher ? l'ut?rus....... ceci est sans aucun doute un
fait
scientifique d?couvert il n'y a pas longtemps.

Saviez-vous que cette apparent "accrochement" de l'oeuf ? l'ut?rus est
d?crit 5 fois dans le Saint Coran?

Par exemple, au chapitre 96, versets 1 et 2 :

"Lis, au nom de ton Seigneur qui a cr??, qui a cr??
l'homme d'une adh?rence.".

La meme id?e est trouv?e au chapitre 22, verset 5 - chapitre 23, verset
14 et chapitres 40 et 75.

De plus, la croissance du foetus est d?crite en d?tails au chapitre 23,
verset 14, en particulier le d?veloppement du squelette.

"Ensuite, Nous avons fait du sperme une adh?rence; et de
l'adh?rence
Nous avons cr?? un embryon; puis, de cet embryon Nous avons cr?? des os
et Nous avons rev?tu les os de chair. Ensuite, Nous l'avons transform?
en une tout autre cr?ation. Gloire ? Allah le Meilleur des cr?ateurs!"

Aussi, l'ordre d'apparition des sens humains est donn? dans le Saint
Coran au chapitre 32, verset 9 :

"Puis Il lui donna sa forme parfaite et lui
insuffla de Son Esprit. Et Il vous a assign? l'ou?e, les yeux et le
coeur. Que vous ?tes peu reconnaissants! ".

Aujourd'hui la Science m?dicale ne peut que confirmer que le
d?veloppement de l'ou?e est compl?te au bout du 5?me mois alors que la
vue n'appara?t qu'au 7?me mois du foetus.

Ces faits n'ont ?t? d?couverts qu'? partir de 1940.

De plus, on demanda au professeur Keith More, un embryologiste de
l'Universit? de Toronto au Canada, de faire une ?tude comparative entre
les informations trouv?es dans le Saint Coran et les informations
Scientifiques modernes concernant le d?veloppement du foetus. Sa
r?ponse
fut : "Le Saint Coran ?g? de 1400 ans contient des passages si exacts
concernant le d?veloppement de l'embryon que les musulmans peuvent
raisonnablement croire qu'ils proviennent de Dieu".

Eric : Si cela est vrai, pourquoi n'en a-t-on pas entendu parler dans
les m?dias?

Abdellah : Il en a ?t? question. Si vous recherchez un peu dans des
archives, vous verrez par exemple, dans le "Citizen", un journal
Canadien, du 22 Novembre 1984, sous le titre "Un Ancient Livre Saint
1400 ans en avance sur son temps". Ou le Times d'Inde, New Dehli, dat?
du 10 Decembre 1984 sous le titre "Le Coran marque un point contre la
Science moderne".

Eric : C'est vraiment fascinant ..n'arretez pas..continuez..

Abdellah : A cet instant, je me souviens d'un verset du Coran qui est
tr?s fort. Il se trouve au chapitre 41, verset 53 :

" Nous leur montrerons Nos signes dans l'univers et en eux-m?mes,
jusqu'? ce qu'il leur devienne ?vident que c'est cela (le Coran), la
V?rit?..."

Saviez-vous que le Saint Coran parle aussi de di?t?tique?

Eric : Que voulez-vous dire?

Abdellah : Vous voyez, certains aliments sont mauvais pour l'?tre
humain
et donc leur consommation est interdite

Eric : Pendant que nous y sommes,... pouvez-vous me dire ce que
signifient les termes musulmans Hallal et Haram?

Abdellah : Tout ce qui est licite est appel? Hallal alors que tout ce
qui est illicite est appel? Haram et c'est le Coran qui fait la
distinction entre les deux.

Eric : Pouvez-vous me donner un exemple?

Abdellah : Oui. L'Islam a interdit la consommation du sang, quelque
soit
sa provenance. Vous ?tes d'accord sur le point que le sang contient
beaucoup d'acide urique, une substance dangereuse pour le corps humain.

Eric : Vous avez raison ? propos de la nature toxique de l'acide
urique. Chez l'?tre humain, en fait, l'acide urique est excr?t? car
c'est un d?chet. En fait, on sait que 98% de l'acide urique du corps
provient de la filtration du sang par les reins et que cet acide urique
est ?limin? en urinant.

Abdellah : La, je pense que vous allez appr?cier la m?thode Islamique
d'abattage d'animaux.

Eric : Que voulez-vous dire?

Abdellah : Vous voyez, ..... la personne qui tient le couteau, alors
qu'elle prononce le nom de Dieu, fait une incision des veines
jugulaires
laissant intactes toutes les autres veines du cou de l'animal.

Eric : Je vois ..... ceci provoque la mort de l'animal par h?morragie
plut?t que par blessure d'un organe vital quelconque de l'animal.

Abdellah : Oui, si les organes, comme le coeur, le foie ou le cerveau
?taient endommag?s, l'animal mourrait imm?diatement et le sang
resterait
a l'int?rieur des veines et pourrait facilement p?n?trer dans tous les
tissus et les organes par infiltration.

Ceci provoquerait la contamination des organes par de l'acide urique ce
qui est dangereux. Les di?t?ticiens viennent a peine de d?couvrir ce
ph?nom?ne.

Eric : Aussi, pouvez-vous me dire pourquoi les musulmans ne mangent
pas
de porc ni ses produits d?riv?s?

Abdellah : En fait, non seulement le Coran interdit la consommation de
porc mais la Bible aussi l'interdit. Dans le L?vitique, chapitre 11,
verset 7-8, .....il est dit :

"Vous ne mangerez pas le porc, ...Vous ne mangerez pas de leur
chair,
et vous ne toucherez pas leurs corps morts : vous les regarderez comme
impurs".

De plus, saviez-vous que le porc ne peut pas ?tre ?gorg? tout
simplement
parce qu'il n'a pas de cou?.....Cela est une caract?ristique physique
naturelle du porc, de ne pas avoir de cou.

Les musulmans disent que si Dieu avait voulu que l'on puisse manger du
porc, Il lui aurait donn? un cou pour qu'on puisse l'?gorger.

N?anmoins, ....sans aller aussi loin, je suis s?r que vous savez que la
consommation de porc est mauvaise pour la sant?, quelque soit le
produit
: c?tes de porc, jambon, bacon, etc.

Eric : La Science m?dicale dit qu'il y a un risque de contracter un
grand nombre de maladies car le cochon porte un grand nombre de
parasites et de germes pathog?nes en lui.

Abdellah : Oui, sans aller jusque la, nous parlions il y a quelques
instants de l'acide urique contenu dans le sang... eh bien il est
important de noter que le corps du cochon ne se d?barasse que de 2% de
son acide urique, les 98% restants ne sortant pas du corps.

Ceci explique le haut pourcentage de rhumatismes trouv? chez ceux qui
consomment du porc.

Eric : Je n'avais jamais entendu toutes ces choses sur le Coran. Dites
moi, qu'est-ce que dit le Saint Coran ? part cela?

Abdellah : Le Coran parle du Salut dans cette vie et dans celle
d'apr?s.
On ne peut pas faire de rapprochement avec la Science ici. Le Coran
s'adresse aux ?tres humains et touche ? toutes les disciplines
importantes de la Vie.

Ainsi, le Coran contient ?tonnamment des v?rit?s qui n'ont pu ?tre
v?rifi?es par la Science que bien longtemps apres Sa r?v?lation au
Proph?te Mouhammad (pbsl) il y a 1400 ans.

Ceci me rappelle une parole tr?s sage de Saint Francis qui a dit "C'est
un peu de savoir qui fait de vous un ath? et une exploration plus
approfondie de la Science qui fait de vous un croyant".


Apr?s ces derniers mots, personne ne dit plus rien...


Il n'y a de Puissance ni de Force qu'en Allah.
Wassalamou Alaikoum,


·

2:54 pm    December 11, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
208
In the Era of The Prophet chari3a was applied, we saw people(2) getting stoned to death cause of what they did(no body saw them , they came and wanted the rule to be applied on them) , after that still chari3a was applied in all the Islamic Empire, and During 400 years we saw only 2 cases of cutting Theifs hands, People were living peacefully applying chari3a, Go read about Omar abdelaziz, and see how during his Era you couldn`t find a Poor person, they couldn`t find who to give zakah to, and guess what he only was amir almu2minin for around 2 Years...., Go read about Omar ibn alkha66ab....
05. feared only God and no body else
We are talking about people and not countries..., Itta9i Allaha ka2annaka tarah fa in lama takoun tarah fahoua yarak.
(Itta9i allaha 7aytouma kunt, wa atbi3i al7asanata assaye2ata tam7uha, wakhali6i annasa bikhulu9in 7assan)
·

2:52 pm    December 11, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
207


01. We the Muslims let go our values and principles
Muslims should not serve alcohol, shouldn`t have Girl/Boy Friends, shouldn`t go to places that Allah tells us not to go to.

02. we forgot about how we should be
We should be Muslims, we should fear Allah and be in the places he wants to be in, and don`t be in the places he don`t want us to be in...., don`t step on any principle in order to please a human being.

03. we went astray from the Goal that God and his Prophet gave us
(wama khala9tou aljinna wal2inssa illa liya3boudouni)
do we do every thing as 3ibadah? do we follow the sunnah? no we don`t, and i can`t state only 3 things cause it`s not fair...

04. when the Muslims were applying chari3a
You keep telling us that 24 hours after the Death of the Prophet(PBUH) sahabah were fighting and arguing, witch is not true, if they were why din`t we see a War? why all of those sahabah accepted abu bakr, as amir almu2minine, and then Omar, and otman, and Ali etc...., there were other Tribes that became non muslims, some of them didn`t wanna pay zakah etc, but still chari3a was applied then, and abu bakr went to fight them and take the zakah by force, so the pillars of Islam will stay as they were, if he didn`t do so we would have an Islma without zakah now..,

·

11:18 am    December 10, 2003
Ali
206
205
Dear Negotiator:

15. some of them will take that and go search for this religion that causes so much problems nowadays

===> So one way for Muslims to bring attention to their religion is to blow things up and make a lot of noise. Yep! let's continue the old line (Islam=Peace) and see where that line is going to accomplish. Every time I hear these Muslim guys going on western radios and TVs and repeating the same old line "Islam=Peace" It makes me laugh! Are we going to come up with another marketing motto? Let's face it, selling any religion is the same as marketing a product. We need a lot of market research, we need to know the competition, we need to know the potential customers, and most importantly, we need the product to be simple (hint: Islam-Lite)

16. and when they see the Real Islam they convert, there is still converts of course

===> Every time I hear "converts" it makes me laugh. Whatever you convert can be reconverted back to something else. Start looking at people who convert from Islam to something else (i.e., current Berbers in Kabyliya, Algeria. These people resent the fact that Arabs and Muslims converted them by force and tried to basically steal their very identity (Berber vs. Arab, that's another discussion)!)

17. but more people are afraid of Muslims

===>No body is afraid of me! Is anybody afraid of you Negotiator? then why?

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan Wa ssalam

·

11:06 am    December 10, 2003
Ali
205
204
Dear Negotiator:

12. they`ll see our miseries, and they`ll run away

13. they`ll see our dictators and they`ll run away

14. they`ll see some of us coming the states and blowing buildings, they`ll hate us

===>What miseries? suicide bombers? dictators? poverty? King Mohammed 6 , amir al moumenin? Taliban and their pure Islamic State? Mullah Omars? Ben laddens? Ayato Allah Khomeini? King of Saudia? Sudan?Iraq?. There is a big mix of religion and politics.

It seems to me that for the last 1500 years, Muslims are still trying to figure out how to use Islam and Politics and Science to move Muslims forward.

How many years do we need before we realize this vision? 1500 more years? Actually, what vision are we trying to accomplish?


Jazakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

·

10:36 am    December 10, 2003
Ali
204
203
Dear Negotiator:

10. they were helping Humanity,

===> Are Muslims now Hurting Humanity. Why? Is Islam too complex to understand? Are there too many conflicting Fatwas out there? Who are we supposed to trust as a leader of Muslims? What does it mean to lead the Muslims? Do we need an Ayato-Allah? Do we need a Mullah?.

11. we are not a good example to follow

===> Since we are "Muslims", and we derive our "Muslim" character from Islam, does this mean that either Islam needs some tweaking or the way "fiqh" people need some tweaking. After all, if we are not a good example to follow, then there must be something specific that we have to change? can you elaborate with 3 examples, what we have change for the west to take Islam/Muslims as an example? I know that "Muslim countries" are tweaking their laws to follow the "west", because some of these western laws are a good example to follow (specifically, Morocco changed its Moudawana law to allow woman to be present during divorce (No more Anti Talek 3 times from the mouth of a Muslim MAN, and that's it)). It seems that, even though "Islam/Sunna/Koran/Fiqh" tried to explain this divorce/marriage thing, it is not making sense to the 21st century couples. I guess change is good!


Jazakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalm

·

10:22 am    December 10, 2003
Ali
203
202
Dear Negotiator:

06. they were leaders in every thing, sciences, medicines, Agriculture....., and the rest of the world were following them

===>I agree with you. That happened many many years ago (that is what the history books say). "Kana Abuka Salihan". Remember that the Greeks were the best 4000 years ago, etc...It's good to notice what happened in the past and learn from it. The only problem is, we are talking about the 21st century, internet/cell phones/satellites, etc...Lies can't be hidden. Miracles better be caught on TV and shown live!. Therefore any "leader, religion, etc..." better have 100% proof. Because the whole world is watching now!. So far, we have about 72 "Muslim countries". Not a single one of them seems to succeed using religion as a main Guide. Is it time to do something different?

07. teh best schools at that time were in Baghdad and Andalusia,

===>The best schools right now are in the USA/Canada/France (may be Christianity now is better than Islam!)

08. Europeans used to send their kids to Muslim schools

===>Muslims are now sending their Kids to USA/UK/Canada/France (Are the western systems much better than using religion as the core of a Muslim system?)

09. The Muslims were tolerante at the time

===> (How sure are you? we did force people to pay tax or convert, money talks my friend?). Hey! I am tolerant right now. I accept other religions.


Again, Negotiator, I am just trying to get you to give specifics for the purpose of disscusion (Lui, this is still Islam 1.0)

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

·

9:48 am    December 10, 2003
Ali
202
201
Dear Negotiator:


01. We the Muslims let go our values and principles

===> Can you give us the top 3 values and principles that the Muslims in the west are not doing (We just need specifics to be able to analyze)?

02. we forgot about how we should be

===> I am not sure what you mean by "how we should be", any examples on this. I personally do not have a problem with being and living in the USA.

03. we went stray from teh Goal that God and his Prophet gave us

===>Can you state 3 goals that God and his Prophet gave us (so that we have specifics to analyze)

04. when the Muslims were applying chari3a

===>Can you give me the name of the "True Muslim Country" that applied "True chari3a" (Please remember, 24 hours after the death of the Prophet, Ali, Fatima, Abu Bakr, etc...started arguing about inheritance, and within a decade, Shiaa/Sunni were created, so I am not sure if shariaa was ever applied, even during the Prophet time!)

05. feared only God and no body else

===>Again, please name the "True Muslim Country", that feared only God and nobody else (I think that a religious figure is a person to fear from day one, Are you going to tell me that people did not fear Ali, Abu Bakr, Omar, etc...They were maintaining political control after all (Politics are dirty))

Negotiator, as you see, the above items are still very general and vague. If you can elaborate a little bit more with specifics, we can learn a lot from this discussion and others will also learn (including, Lui.). Let me remind Lui again: This is still Islam 1.0!

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

·

9:34 am    December 10, 2003
Ali
201
197
Dear Negotiator:

A. Thanks for the answer!

B. At least you put some thought in this topic, Lui is still mad at me, hopefully he'll snap out of it and contribute his point of view (I love you Lui).

C. The topic of this discussion is "Adapting Islam to the west or vice-versa".

Here is my attempt at itemizing the list of things that you think Muslims are not doing in the west and the east. my next posts will take these items and analyze them (For Lui, this is still in Islam 1.0)

01. We the Muslims let go our values and principles

02. we forgot about how we should be

03. we went stray from teh Goal that God and his Prophet gave us

04. when the Muslims were applying chari3a

05. feared only God and no body else

06. they were leaders in every thing, sciences, medicines, Agriculture....., and the rest of the world were following them

07. teh best schools at that time were in Baghdad and Andalusia,

08. Europeans used to send their kids to Muslim schools

09. The Muslims were tolerante at the time

10. they were helping Humanity,

11. we are not a good example to follow

12. they`ll see our miseries, and they`ll run away

13. they`ll see our dictators and they`ll run away

14. they`ll see some of us coming the states and blowing buildings, they`ll hate us

15. some of them will take that and go search for this religion that causes so much problems nowadays

16. and when they see the Real Islam they convert, there is still converts of course

17. but more people are afraid of Muslims

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan Wa ssalam

·

5:11 pm    December 9, 2003
Ali
200
198
Dear adnane:

I quote you:

"Ali, I can guarantee you that most Moroccans who understand english also understand French. I also see that Lui, Negotiator, growingSoul etc gave valid opinions and posts. They contributed well."

My answer:

I have a sister who grow up in the USA. She has no clue how to read French (she came here a long time ago, when she was little). She does speak darija and English.

So for her own benefit and the benefit of others in her situation (they are Mgharba after all), I think it will be OK to provide both French and English translations of the topic under discussion.

I am not sure if you are aware or not that Morocco is Arabizing the educational system. A lot of of young Moroccans nowadays are very week in French.

This is not about Negotiator, Lui, and Growingsoul.

It's kind of Equal Oppotunity Discussion kind of thing!

Let's smile and continue brain storming!

Sorry if you misunderstood what I meant!

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

·

3:24 pm    December 9, 2003
Lui
199
193
Mr Ali,

Please stop both assuming things about me:

1. My temper is almost always at the same level. Notice that I never asked or cared about your temper as it is irrelevant here.

Please stop saying things about me that I didn?t do:

1. I never used any threatening language in any discussion in raioo.

2. I never censored any of your ideas or other people?s ideas.

3. I never attacked any one in raioo.

I think it is part of my rights if I ask you to stop doing the above.

You really good with twisting ideas and making people say what they never intended. I will not play your game. I am just wasting my time here with you, as once again no positive goals will be achieved by discussing with you.

Thank you?

·

3:17 pm    December 9, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
198
195
Ali, I can guarantee you that most Moroccans who understand english also understand French. I also see that Lui, Negotiator, growingSoul etc gave valid opinions and posts. They contributed well.

If you consider your Islam-lite a personal matter why are you making it the topic? if you want to contribute to this topic, tell of actions, practises, adaptation paths that Islam (not your Islam-lite) can enrich itself with to improve the co-existence of Muslims in the west.

The solutions you claim belong to your islam-lite such as eating at McDo, conversing with others in churches, synagogues etc, are aleady part of Islam teachings. Why can't you admit that? You know that Islam wants us to utilize the flexibility it offers to us, but unfortunately you go ahead and STAB Islam in the back till it bleeds, and then call that Islam-lite.

Your story reminds me of Microsoft when they develop a product or a way of doing things, they usually alwys get inspired by a more serene and beautiful thought, but they never give the credit for that. You would think that their product, which doesn't give credit to those who inspired it, would be as beautiful and bug free, but helas. It would be full of bugs, patches every other week.

·

3:12 pm    December 9, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
197
This is the secons Time Ali that you give me a real reason why to believe that you don`t read what we write carefully..., you keep telling people that we haven`t answered the Main question , you sarcastically mentioned that we might need the translation from French to English...
Not bad from some one who call for peace and mercy.....

To your Knwoledge i already posted my Opinion very early on this discussion on Post 74..
here is what i wrote :
so To answer the main Question of the subject,
We the Muslims let go our values and principles, we forgot about how we should be, we went stray from teh Goal that God and his Prophet gave us,(kountoum khayra oummatin oukhrijat linnassi TA2MOUROUNA BILMA3ROUFI WATANHAWNA 3ANI ALMOUNKARI) when the Muslims were applying chari3a, and feared only God and no body else, they were leaders in every thing, sciences, medicines, Agriculture....., and the rest of the world were following them, teh best schools at that time were in Baghdad and Andalusia, Europeans used to send their kids to Muslim schools, The Muslims were tolerante at the time, they were helping Humanity, But now what are the Muslims doing? NADA, we are not a good example to follow, they`ll see our miseries, and they`ll run away, they`ll see our dictators and they`ll run away, they`ll see some of us coming the states and blowing buildings, they`ll hate us, some of them will take that and go search for this religion that causes so much problems nowadays, and when they see the Real Islam they convert, there is still converts of course, but more people are afraid of Muslims....

·

2:58 pm    December 9, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
196
6. I am still waiting for you, Negotiator, and Lui to come up with a list of items that Islam 1.0 must change to adapt to the west (Please try to take a global look. It's OK Allah is Merciful and Compassionate)

Allah is Merciful and Compassionate ONLY if you Follow his Law, if you obey him then you can benefit from his mercy, But if you don`t believe in Him(his laws) and you change his Quranic Laws, and you don`t care about his Last Messenger , how would you expect him to be merciful to you? I wouldn`t change a SINGLE thing about Islam, no matter what, I love it the way it is, if people want it that way , Tabaraka ALLAH if they don`t Allahu alghaney...,
So To adapt to the west we have to change Our selves and not our Religion, Islam is beautiful the it is , we are the ones who need reforms...., People here will accept you if you are honest, you don`t lie, you don`t steal, you don`t cheat...., if you are a real Good Muslim...., But if you say you are a Muslim and you go out drinking, stealing, cheating, cursing...then you are not a Good example of a Muslim...


5. What I won't promise my followers, is "going to hell" when they make a silly mistake before they die (Allah is All-Forgiving!)

This is what i`m talking about , how could you promise somebody something if you don`t have it????
You don`t have the key to Heaven or Hell, so how would you promise them not to go to hell while you say Allah is all-Forgiving???? it is Allah who will put you or me in Hell, and you are not the responsible party for that!!! are you?

·

2:50 pm    December 9, 2003
Ali
195
194
continue...

8. You and I have contributed our part to the "adaptation of Islam to the west and vice-versa" discussion. Lui, Negotiator, and Growingsoul have attacked (mostly my ideas) but they really have not contributed any tangible ideas to the topic. Is there anyway to translate the topic from French to English so that other non-French speaking people can understand what the topic is all about. Thanks!

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

·

2:49 pm    December 9, 2003
Ali
194
191
Dear adnane:

I quote you:

"What if I consider myself a good Muslim "1.0 dyelek" while my definition of "good" is to believe and perform all those things you removed in your Islam-lite. I bet you I won't be welcome in your islam-lite."

My answer:

1. I do not force you to follow me. If you want to create your own Islam-Lite, good for you. You need to welcome yourself to your own Islam-Lite. Do not wait for me to welcome you to my Islam-Lite (Islam-Lite is a personal thing!).

2. For the sake of an example, in my Islam-Lite, eating from McDonalds is OK. If you decide not to eat from McDonald's (Haram), then that's great for you (Just do not tell me that I am a bad Muslim-Lite because I ate from McDonald's).

3. The beauty of Islam-Lite is that it's a very "flexible and adaptable" religion (The core of it is compassion, love, and forgiveness).

4. Think about it for a second, you will not have to explain to anybody why you are not going to Friday prayers. You do not have to explain to anybody why you are not fasting the full 30 days.

5. Islam-Lite is a personal pizza, you want more pepperoni, good for you! you want tomatoes, good for you. Cheese is common to all (cheese = compassion, love, and forgiveness)

6. I do think that Islam-Lite is far more flexible and adaptable than Islam 1.0

7. And you are right "...lakoum dinoukoum waliya din" is a good motto for Islam-Lite ("Lakoum Islamokom, waliya Islam-Lite").

continue...

·

1:55 pm    December 9, 2003
Ali
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189
Dear Lui:

I quote you:

"The questions that are asked here are about adaptation in the west within Islam 1.0. In other words, the questions assume that Islam 1.0 is used not any other religion. If you don?t believe in Islam 1.0, then I think you have no word in this discussion."

My answer:

1. Again, my "Lui" is having a bad temper. This is an indication that the discussion is hot!

2. For some reason, it seems to me that when you do not like other people's opinions and ideas, you try to use threatening language to stop people from contributing.

3. So far, you have contributed zero ideas to this discussion. Yes, you attack others when they contribute and you ask others to censor other people's ideas. Hmmm! I wonder why?.

4. Going back to the quote above, "And to make you happy, let's stay within Islam 1.0", do you have anything to contribute to "adaptation in the west within Islam 1.0"?

5. How about Negotiator: do you have any itemized list to contribute to "adaptation in the west within Islam 1.0"?

6. Do you feel insecure in your Islam 1.0?

7. All things considered, I forgive your temper!. I still love you my Lui. Compassion, Love, and Forgiveness are free from me to you!

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

·

12:43 pm    December 9, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
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190
I think Lui you said it right. The discussion is about adapting Islam in the west, not changing Islam to another religion to adapt the west, or like some prefer to put it "please" the west.

I second you, and I don't think a seperate discussion about "changing" Islam to a islam-lite is needed, only if the majority insists or they have better ideas. All, feel free to suggest topics to discuss in the discussion box in the left menu.

·

12:39 pm    December 9, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
191
187
You said:
2. Islam-Lite is a subset of Islam 1.0. I have personally removed all those things I do not like in Islam 1.0.

3. So if you consider yourself a good Muslim 1.0, you are also a good Muslim-Lite.

What if I consider myself a good Muslim "1.0 dyelek" while my definition of "good" is to believe and perform all those things you removed in your Islam-lite. I bet you I won't be welcome in your islam-lite.

I guess it boils down to: what is good for you is not good for me. And kimma khallah sidi rebbi when he instructed Prophet Mohammed to put it this way: "...lakoum dinoukoum waliya din". I don't mean you are Kaffir, no, but I think that ayya cuts it well to say good is relative.

Ali, you are making dangerous changes to the pillars and fundamental structures of Islam based on your 3atifa, while you think you're using logic which most people here observe as flawed logic. Unfortnately for you Ali, your flawed logic is your only tool. The tools that people here use are logic no doubt, but they have stronger tools also such as faith and trust in their religion. Maybe you will argue with me that your logic is not flawed. In that case, GrowingSoul from Phoenix put it clearly when he described your discussion style as a filibuster.

·

12:07 pm    December 9, 2003
Lui
190
All,

Please, let?s stop arguing with Ali and his Islam 2.0. If he wants us to discuss it, he should ask Adnane for another different discussion. Please, let?s go back on discussing the adaptation of Islam 1.0 in the west.

For All but Ali, please let me know if I am wrong in what I am asserting in this posting.

Thank you?

·

12:06 pm    December 9, 2003
Lui
189
177
Mr Ali,

Please stop fooling yourself or at least other people reading your posts on raioo. Since your first posting, you hijacked this discussion to promote you own religion. And now, you are telling everybody else to focus on the subject of this discussion. When you attack other people, at least expect them to defend themselves.

You say that you respect other beliefs but you attack Islam right in the middle. You say that Islam 2.0 is for you alone but keep preaching us about it.

For you, this discussion is just a continuation of what you started in our last discussion.

The questions that are asked here are about adaptation in the west within Islam 1.0. In other words, the questions assume that Islam 1.0 is used not any other religion. If you don?t believe in Islam 1.0, then I think you have no word in this discussion.

Thank you?

·

11:33 am    December 9, 2003
Ali
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183
Dear Negotiator:

I quote you:

"Allah gave us Islam..., and
Promised us Heaven..., so if you created(Came up) your own religion what do you promise your Followers(if there are any) ?"

My answer:

1. I am not asking people to Follow me. Because I do not claim to be a prophet. I do not claim to perform Miracles (bye the way, as I am typing this posting, I looked at my pencil, gave a mental command for the pencil to be broken in two pieces, I checked the pencil, it's still the same. I do not have miracle powers.)

2. Islam-Lite is based on my belief in Allah (The creator) and the fact that being a compassionate, forgiving, accepting of others, and helping person, Allah will be compassionate and forgiving back to me.

3. I mentioned before that there an attribute of Allah in every human being.

4. What I promise my followers (i.e, those who want to create their own Islam-Lite, which can be different from my Islam-Lite), is that when they show compassion and love to others, by reflexion, they will get back compassion and love.

5. What I won't promise my followers, is "going to hell" when they make a silly mistake before they die (Allah is All-Forgiving!)

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

·

11:17 am    December 9, 2003
Ali
187
182
Dear Growingsoul:

I quote you:

"Like you said before there is no such thing as a true religion. All religions are valid for the people who believe in it. I couldn't agree with you more. Now Islam is valid for me and all the people defending it here and elsewhere. Islam you came up is valid for you and people who believe in it. So why do you point out all the wrong things about our(excluding you) religion just to make you religion sound better?"

My answer:

1. I am glad you finally agree to the fact tha there is no true religion out there (I knew there is logic in everyone of us, all that is left now is to convince both Lui and Negotiator of this fact!)

2. Islam-Lite is a subset of Islam 1.0. I have personally removed all those things I do not like in Islam 1.0.

3. So if you consider yourself a good Muslim 1.0, you are also a good Muslim-Lite.

4. Concerning pointing out the wrong things about Islam 1.0, please remember the main topic of this discussion (French: Pourquoi Islam a du mal ? se vendre dans l'occident?, English: Whi is Islam having a hard time selling itself in the West?)

5. I have taking the position that creating an Islam-Lite (Islam 2.0) is the best way to correct the way Islam is being marketed in the West. Once we are done with Islam-Lite, I am open to cooperate in creating Islam-Intermediate edition.

6. I am still waiting for you, Negotiator, and Lui to come up with a list of items that Islam 1.0 must change to adapt to the west (Please try to take a global look. It's OK Allah is Merciful and Compassionate).

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

·

10:44 am    December 9, 2003
Ali
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182
Dear Growingsoul:

I quote you:

"Ali, I consider myself a Muslim and I love the jews, christans, black, asian, indian, humanity including you."

My answer:

1. I am glad to hear you say that.

2. Is Judaism a good religion?Are the good ones worthy of heaven? Yes/No?

3. Is Hinduism a good religion? Are the good ones worthy of heaven?Yes/No?

4. Is Christianity a good religion?Are the good ones worthy of heaven? Yes/No?

5. Do you have to be a Muslim to go to heaven?

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam.

·

10:26 am    December 9, 2003
Ali
185
181
Dear Growingsoul:

I quote you:

"*****differentiate between mind and soul, logic and spirit, mathematical equations and feelings. *****"

1. I gave you my answers. And you are not happy with them.

2. Can you explain to us in your own words what are the differences in your quote above?

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

·

10:17 am    December 9, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
184
Exerpt from Hart's book:
My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world's most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the religious and secular levels...

Muhammad founded and promulgated one of the world's great religions, and became an immensely effective political leader. Today, thirteen centuries after his death, his influence is still powerful and pervasive... Like all religions, Islam exerts an enormous influence upon the lives of its followers. It is for this reason that the founders of the world's great religions all figure prominently in this book. Since there are roughly twice as many Christians as Moslems in the world, it may initially seem strange that Muhammad has been ranked higher than Jesus. There are two principal reasons for that decision. First, Muhammad played a far more important role in the development of Islam than Jesus did in the development of Christianity. Although Jesus was responsible for the main ethical and moral precepts of Christianity (insofar as these differed from Judaism), St. Paul was the main developer of Christian theology, its principal proselytizer, and the author of a large portion of the New Testament.

·

10:12 am    December 9, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
183

1. I believe I am a mou2min, because I believe in the existence of Allah, creator of humanity, earth, moon, etc

(9alati al2a3rabou 2amanna 9oul lam tou3minou walakin 9oulou aslamna ......Innamma almou2minouna alladina 2ammanou biLLAHI wa rassoulihi TUMMA LAM YARTABOU...)
Believing Only in Allah doesn`t make you a mu2min.....


6. That's how I came up with Islam-Lite (formerly known as Islam 2.0)

3. Every religion has a reward mechanism (for every good deed, you get a Scooby sNack, and for every bad deed you get a Scooby sMack)

Allah gave us Islam..., and
Promised us Heaven..., so if you created(Came up) your own religion what do you promise your Followers(if there are any) ?


(wa yass2alunaka 3ani arrou7i 9oul arrou7ou min amri rabbi wama outitum mina al3ilmi illa 9alilan)
Even the Prophet couldn`t describe what the Soul was ....,and you defined it in two lines !!!!???? you think you are better than the Prophet ? well listen to what professor Micheal hart wrote in His Book (the 100 most influential persons in history) :
in my next posting

·

10:08 am    December 9, 2003
Growingsoul
182
Ali, I consider myself a Muslim and I love the jews, christans, black, asian, indian, humanity including you.

Like you said before there is no such thing as a true religion. All religions are valid for the people who believe in it. I couldn't agree with you more. Now Islam is valid for me and all the people defending it here and elsewhere. Islam you came up is valid for you and people who believe in it. So why do you point out all the wrong things about our(excluding you) religion just to make you religion sound better?

I thought you didn't like that about Muslims who dismiss other religion (even though not quite true), and Christian who travel around the world disrespecting people's believes.

Hey all I can tell is our religion is not for you to critisize and if you don't like it respect your others who do...hum..are your parents Muslims?

·

9:54 am    December 9, 2003
Growingsoul
181
Ali,
Once more you wrote a lot to say nothing.
Sorry man!!! I've really tried to understand your point of view and find the answer to my questions but hellas.

- You gave me defenitions, which merely re-enforce my position of what I said about differentiating between the mind and spirit. There is a reason people associate religion with spirituality.

- You have ASSUMED, and frequently used, once more the ENFORCing of the rules. I never suggested the ENFORCing of the rules. I merely said that "Iman" is a belief system, and "Islam" is the set of rules that a Mou2min and only Mou2min could follow if he/she wants to be called Muslim. No one is forcing anything on any one in Islam for the simple fact that there is no middle man between you an ALLAH (SBWT). We are not talking about countries, which enforce religion rules, we are simply talking about the religion as an entity and let's keep there.

- In your every responce, you seem to elaborate on what I said and then make it conveniently different for the sake to make wrong. I challenge you to read carefully the questions I asked and the answers you provided.

NB: Just, don't beat around the bush because I am tired of typing in vain. I feel like I am facing a filibuster...

Jazaka Lahou bi Hidayatihi

·

9:49 am    December 9, 2003
Ali
180
179
continue...

The above items are not easy to accomplish indeed, and myself I'll try to follow my words because I will be asked whether I followed my words or not. Only god knows that I just wanted to remind myself to start with.

====> I feel your pain! There's so much to do in Islam 1.0. There is also this constant guilt that goes with it as you are never sure if you are doing enough or not? Why does religion have to be so complex? why does Allah have to play this heaven/hell game with us? why did he/she/it create us?why?why?...For me watching Comedy Central helps a lot!

My question:

How come the above items you mentioned are very hard to do in the west? are we asking too much from the Muslims in the west? are the Muslims in the west too overwhelmed with things to do?

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

·

9:48 am    December 9, 2003
Ali
179
178
continued...

3. Muslims should trust in God, his message, his miracles, his prophets, his books, angels, heavens and hell.

====>Trust is good. But we should use our brains as well. The main message is to treat humanity with dignity. Heaven/Hell/Angels/Miracles, etc...these are fairy tales that, so far in human history, nobody will EVER be able to prove.

4. Muslims should avoid changing your skin in the context of religious identity, to please others: such as doing Ramadan with millions of people around the world to encourage unity. Praying.

====> Unity is good. Disagreement is also good. Change is also good. It allows for good evolution of a religion. I totally disagree with the fact that Islam is for all time, the final religion, etc...Islam is a religion that needs to re-invent itself to be able to keep up with the pace and survive the future centuries. Who knows, the west and developing nations will start living in space and there will be no body on earth to hear the call to prayers!

5. Muslims should : follow prophet Mohammed, or your madhab out of the 4, to tweek your rituals. all madahib agree on the fundamentals of islam unlike other madahib who seem to go for Islam-lite, diet-islam, islam-decaf, mini-islam (these manifest themselves in wahabbi, bahaii, qashbandi, and bla bla bla).

====>If there are only 4 madhabs, what is wrong with a 5th one?. After all, if we call ourselves tolerant Muslims, it seems to me that we should have no problems with other madhabs to go along the 4 main ones, the shiaa, Druze, etc...


continued...

·

9:45 am    December 9, 2003
Ali
178
167
Dear adnane:

1. Muslims shouldn't discredit Quran.

====> Are they allowed to comment on it and make sure that what they are betting the farm on is actually accurate?

====> Are they allowed to question some aspects about it? Since these same Muslims who claim that the Koran is 100% perfect, are questioning other people's holy book?

====> Don't you think that studying a Holy book with both pros/cons arguments will only help all of us understand the big picture?

====> Is it a crime to question the accuracy of the Koran?

====> Don't you think that Islam is following the tiring cycle of:
------------ A. Koran is 100% accurate.
-------------B. A sizable number of Muslims give a bad Image to Islam using item-A.
-------------C. We keep telling the world that Islam=peace.
-------------D. The world keeps pointing to item-A.
...And the cycle continues

2. Muslims shouldn't discredit Prophet Mohammed

====> Prophets are human beings

====> Human beings are prone to mistakes

====> I know that during Islamic education classes we were taught that prophets are "maassoumin min al akhtaa", ("immune from making mistakes"), I do not buy it.

====> Prophets are just good people trying to help and spread good behavior for human beings (Mother Teresa did a lot of good work in India, is she a prophet?)

====> I believe it's OK to question decision made by "prophets" just like we need to question decisions made by our government leaders. After all, it's humanity that is at stake at the end.

continue...

·

9:11 am    December 9, 2003
Ali
177
168
Dear Lui:

1. Thanks for the feedback.

2. Since the topic of this discussion is adapting Islam to the west and vice-versa, what are the top 3 things that Muslims must do/change to adapt to the west.

3. I gave my point of view. What is yours?

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

·

7:40 am    December 9, 2003
Ali
176
175
continued...

3. As far as faith in Islam-Lite is concerned, I personally believe that Allah (The creator of humanity) gave each one of us the power of compassion and forgiveness to serve our fellow human beings. That's my simple faith. I do not need a PhD in theology from Al-Azhar, a PhD in fiqh, ....to understand Islam 1.0. These are signs that the religion is complex and it's time for a tune-up.

4. Can you tell me what is wrong with Islam-Lite?

I quote you:

"NB: If you want to talk about logic, then prove to us, scientificaly, that a religion (any one of your choice) is in fact true."

My answer:

1. There is no such thing as a true religion (including Islam, Islam 2.0, and Islam-Lite).

2. Any religion has a set of principles and guidelines for a person of that religion to follow.

3. Every religion has a reward mechanism (for every good deed, you get a Scooby sNack, and for every bad deed you get a Scooby sMack)

4. Some religions have so many rules and principles that they become very confusing (Islam 1.0, Catholicism, orthodox Judaism, etc...).

5. Once a religion becomes too loaded with rules and regulations, it's necessary to break it down into mini-religions in order to make it more lively again!

6. That's how I came up with Islam-Lite (formerly known as Islam 2.0)

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

·

7:38 am    December 9, 2003
Ali
175
174
continued...

6. My Islam-Lite has principles and guidelines (i.e., once a year, donate 1, 10, 100, 1000, 10000, etc dollars to needy people, organizations, charities, etc...). If you do not have money to donate, I will still love you and I understand! Islam-Lite is based on "yussr". If you are a woman, if you want to wear Hijab, good for you. If you do not wear Hijab good for you. It's not the outside appearance that counts. it's the inside that count (a heart, in a rib cage, full of love, compassion, and forgiveness).

7. If you were a prophet, what are the top 3 things you would like to change about Islam (be honest!)?

I quote you:

"Please bear in mind that it has always been hard for any science oriented person to merely accept religion. Nevertheless, there are great, intellectual Arab scientists before you and me who believed and had faith that couldn't be described in a mathematical equation."

My answer:

1. I do not need to bring science, physics, and math to explain my Islam-Lite.

2. The main pillar of any religion must be simplicity. Just to let you know that the Christians revolted against the Jews because the Israelites started imposing RULES, RULES, RULES, and many RULES....This act turned off a lot of people, which in turn gave raise to Christianity (That's why they eat pork!).

continued...

·

7:37 am    December 9, 2003
Ali
174
170
Dear Growingsoul:

I quote you:

"***** "Iman" before "Islam" means believe before you follow the rules. In order to be a muslim you have to be a mou2min. "Iman" is to have faith and believe (this is done differently for each person). "Islam" are the sets of rules that a "Mou2min" and only "Mou2min" follows in order to be a Muslim. Therefore you don't have to follow the rules unless you have true faith.*****"

My answer:

1. I believe I am a mou2min, because I believe in the existence of Allah, creator of humanity, earth, moon, etc...

2. I also believe in love, compassion, and forgiveness for my fellow human beings (regardless of their religious/sexual/race/language/etc orientation)

3. As far a believing in RULES, I personally do not like to use the word RULES. This sounds like a dictatorship to me (Iran and Saudia have religious police to ENFORCE religious rules, I do not want to live under such a system).

4. Any Religion has guidelines and principles. Nobody has the right to impose religious rules. It has never worked. It does not work. and it will never work.

5. In order to ENFORCE a religious RULE, you need to SIGN a document stating you want to adhere to those RULES. I do not remember signing such a document in Morocco. Did you sign any document stating that you want to be judged by the RULES of Islam 1.0? What are these RULES?

continued...

·

6:28 am    December 9, 2003
Ali
173
172
Dear Growingsoul:

Sorry, the references did not show up. Here they are again:

Mind:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=mind

Soul:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=soul

Logic:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=logic

Spirit:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=spirit

Feeling:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=feeling

Mathematical equation:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=equation


Jazakomo Allaho Khairan Wa ssalam

·

6:19 am    December 9, 2003
Ali
172
171
continued...

Feeling: To have compassion or sympathy: I feel for him in his troubles.

Reference:

Mathematical equation: A statement asserting the equality of two expressions, usually written as a linear array of symbols that are separated into left and right sides and joined by an equal sign.

Reference:

===>Example: IFa person has feeling (compassion) for others, THEN humanity will benefit.

(I will answer the second part of your post in a moment)

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan Wa ssalam

·

6:17 am    December 9, 2003
Ali
171
170
Dear Growingsoul:

I quote you:

"*****differentiate between mind and soul, logic and spirit, mathematical equations and feelings. *****"

My answer:

Mind: The faculty of thinking, reasoning, and applying knowledge: Follow your mind, not your heart.

Reference:

Soul: The spiritual nature of humans, regarded as immortal, separable from the body at death, and susceptible to happiness or misery in a future state.

Reference:

===>Example: I use my mind when I decided to be compassionate and accept other religions as valid. This action helped me acquire a happy soul.

Logic: The study of the principles of reasoning, especially of the structure of propositions as distinguished from their content and of method and validity in deductive reasoning.

Reference:

Spirit: The soul, considered as departing from the body of a person at death.

Reference:

===>Example: I use as much logic as I can to think about the purpose of my life. The human spirit needs periodic tune-ups to stay active!

continued...

·

2:59 pm    December 8, 2003
Growingsoul
170
Ali,
I would like to hear an answer for the posted message 159/158.

The message has the following premis:

*****differentiate between mind and soul, logic and spirit, mathematical equations and feelings. *****

***** "Iman" before "Islam" means believe before you follow the rules. In order to be a muslim you have to be a mou2min. "Iman" is to have faith and believe (this is done differently for each person). "Islam" are the sets of rules that a "Mou2min" and only "Mou2min" follows in order to be a Muslim. Therefore you don't have to follow the rules unless you have true faith.*****

Please bear in mind that it has always been hard for any science oriented person to merely accept religion. Nevertheless, there are great, intellectual Arab scientists before you and me who believed and had faith that couldn't be described in a mathematical equation.

NB: If you want to talk about logic, then prove to us, scientificaly, that a religion (any one of your choice) is in fact true.

·

1:57 pm    December 8, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
169
167
items 3-5 should be negated, apologies for the typos.
·

1:56 pm    December 8, 2003
Lui
168
155
Mr Ali,

I wonder sometimes how do you find all that energy and time to reply to all the postings. I feel bad when I see all this effort being wasted!

1. You should remind yourself first about the topic of this discussion before pointing to others. This discussion was not meant to preach for your Islam 2.0 in the first place as you are doing now.

2. Whatever!?How come you are saying that you didn?t change Islam and you are changing its main pillars?

3. Whatever!?As if the new naming of your new faith is what making other raiootist pissed off!

4. Non-sense!

5. As if you are sure that you will have a seat in heaven for yourself! Can you prove to me that you will get one? Don?t forget to use your 100% prove logic.

6. I don?t believe you in this one. As long as I am not harming anyone of them by performing my religious rituals, then I have the ultimate freedom to do them. They don?t stop doing their religious rituals, so why shall I stop mine?

7. What 3 things were you talking about?!!?Anyways, you got my point of view about all points in your posting.

If we follow your logic and ideas, we will end up with one religion for each human being in earth. Is this what you are looking for?

Thank you...

·

1:55 pm    December 8, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
167
166
I've already listed what they should do, I prefer not to repeat myself. I'll try to dig out the post and provide a link for it.

However, and this is important, I can itemize to you what they should not do in order to walk steadily towards Islam:

1. discredit Quran.
2. discredit Prophet Mohammed

The above are the most unifying for Muslims.

3. trust in God, his message, his miracles, his prophets, his books, angels, heavens and hell.

4. avoid changing your skin in the context of religious identity, to please others: such as doing ramadan with millions of people around the world to encourage unity. Praying.

5. following prophet mohammed, or your madhab out of the 4, to tweek your rituals. all madahib agree on the fundamentals of islam unlike other madahib who seem to go for Islam-lite, diet-islam, islam-decaf, mini-islam (these manifest themselves in wahabbi, bahaii, qashbandi, and bla bla bla).

The above items are not easy to accomplish indeed, and myself I'll try to follow my words because I will be asked whether I followed my words or not. Only god knows that I just wanted to remind myself to start with.

·

1:20 pm    December 8, 2003
Ali
166
165
Dear adnane:

I quote you:

"it is a sign of a comeback inshallah to the tolerant islam, rather than the islam advertised by extremists. 9/11 stirred the good Muslims and alerted them that the image of islam is being hurt by the acts of extremism. It's a vicious circle. "

1. You and I seem to agree on the fact that Islam has been hijacked by fundamentalist Muslims.

2. We also agree that the Koran and the Sunnah present a place where these fundamentalist elements are picking "Surat/Ayya and/or haddeeth" to justify the "putting down" of non-Muslims.

3. Since you want Muslims to go back to the "tolerant islam", can you itemize some points that Muslims in the west can do to show this tolerance towards non-Muslims?

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

·

1:05 pm    December 8, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
165
164
My last sentence was incomplete. Correction: it is a sign of a comeback inshallah to the tolerant islam, rather than the islam advertised by extremists. 9/11 stirred the good Muslims and alerted them that the image of islam is being hurt by the acts of extremism. It's a vicious circle. The debate is hot and confusing. But at the end of teh day, Extremists should not win, tolerants should. More tolerants are coming back to renew their spirituality, to ask for guidance and strength to survive the real Islam.
·

12:58 pm    December 8, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
164
162
Most of what you mentioned represents the teachings of Islam except for when you don't see the advantage in doing things together to emphasize the feeling of unity, unity for good reasons. You fail to see this power of islam to bring people together in salat (facing Kaaba), in Ramadan, fasting a month altogether, and by giving the yearly Zakawat altogether. Surely facing Kaaba by itself will not add any value to your prayer, but it is a symbol of unity. Sure you can fast one day and be as good as you can get, but fasting a month and a particular month brings people together to the table, to the mosque. It kind of shows you who you are part of so you can see where everyone is going.

Doing things by yourself is fine, but as long as your voice is not encouraging unity, I doubt anyone will listen to you. People need a sense of unity. Since 9/11 it seems to me there has been more numbers of people who want to visit Hajj, who wants to learn their own religion more, and go to the mosque more. It is sign of a comeback inshallah.

·

12:43 pm    December 8, 2003
Ali
163
162
continued...

7. For Salat: I pray whenever and wherever I can (even when driving my car). I do not necessarily face Kaaba and pray (except during Eid-Prayers).

Here is a prayer that I do while I am driving:

Dear Allah:

01. Help me help myself.

02. Help me help others.

03. Help me be a good person.

04. Show me how to be compassionate.

05. Show me how to make somebody's else life better.

06. Help the Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, and others understand each other and serve humanity.

07. Show humanity that our destiny is human cooperation, because I want to share my bread and I want others to share their water.

08. Guide me when the living days are foggy.

09. Give me patience when I want to rush.

10. You gave me two ears: one on the left and the other on the right. Help me listen to both sides of the story.

11. You gave me two eyes: in front of my head: Help me learn from the past and continue to hope and see the future.

12. You gave me one heart: deep in my rib cage. Help me fill it with deep compassion.

13. I believe in the circle of life, because it's center is love, its rayon is compassion, its diameter is outreach, its circumference is humanity, it's surface is you (Allah), and its arcs are communities.
14. You are the Forgiver, the Merciful, the Guide, and the Compassionate. I want to be you in every attribute you have.

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

·

12:42 pm    December 8, 2003
Ali
162
157
Dear adnane:

You asked me what Rituals from Islam 1.0 I don't do anymore. Here are the major ones:

1. If it makes you feel better, I am renaming my Islam to "Islam-Lite".

2. I eat Meat (Beef, Lamb, Chicken, Turkey) bought in the USA food markets. I do not buy into the Halal/Haram debate.

3. Fasting a minimum of 1 day and a maximum of 30 days are part of my Islam-Lite (The act of fasting is meant to show self restrain and to feel what hungry people feel). Remember that the first day of Ramadan is the "hardest" day of Ramadan because your body is used to food for the last year. As You fast the 2nd, 3rd, etc...days, you know that you get used to Ramadan. So, you really do not learn much from the remaining days of Ramadan.

4. For Zakat, I donate money whenever I can. I always look for cases that are worth investing in (Bridges TV, CAIR-USA/Canada www.cair-net.org)

5. Wearing of Hijab is 100% optional.

6. I do visit Churches, Synagogue, Hindu temples, and Mosques. You need to socialize with these people to understand what they preach. Believe me, they are just as good and just as bad as Muslims. When you remove the Rituals, 99% of the time you are left with decent human beings trying to do good!

continued...

·

12:34 pm    December 8, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
161
la Suite:
And I really belive in what i said, And all Muslims should believe in that too, because that way we want have people who think that they are very good people and they will go to heaven, in other words bach bnadem mayetgherch brassou, you never say i`m a good person i will go to heaven and that guy is bad he will go to hell..., I`d rather believe in That than , cause it will make me a better person that doesn`t underestimate anybody.....
And another reeason is not to think like Ali ,he knows that he has a seat in Heaven !!!!!
5. Considering going to heaven or hell, don't worry: If you are a good person, I am giving up my seat in heaven for you!


We don`t send no body to Hell(unles you have the key..)
As i said before no body is born a christian or jew or budhist..., every body is born a moua7id(don`t associate any body with God) and his parents, will make him, christian, jew, muslim..., when you become an adult and you don`t use your brain to look for the truth then you are responsible for your acts.., those who are christians or else know about Islam, God doesn`t have a Son, if you believe he does that is associating somebody with him....., what will be your sort? heaven? or Hell? Allah said it will be Hell, you think that God won`t judge us by Religion!! how do you know that? and if so why did he create Religion for us if he won`t use it ?
there are jews who will go to heaven of course, and they are those who belived in Allah and moses(PBUH) and those who followed Jesus when he became a prophet, and those christians will go to heaven because they believed in jesus(PBUH) as a Prophet, and then they believed in mohammed(PBUH)...

·

12:33 pm    December 8, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
160
MB,
I`m Glad kande7kek, At least matgoulich islamists don`t have a sense of humour (^_^)
and same goes with you kade7kini b your assumptions...
Achraf said Islam was protected by it`s creator(Inna na7nou nazzalna addikra wa inna lahou la7afidoun) but you saw something else in his message, you said that if Islam is protected why we have Benladen, and mollah omar, taliban...... we are not perfect.....,
Islam is perfect and protected doesn`t mean that Muslims are, no a lalla, Qurab is Quran, no body can change it, because Allah is protecting it, Allah didn`t say he will protect us from going astray!!!
Bottom line, is that Islam is Perfect, but people are not, because we don`t follow it perfectly...
You reminded me of those who said Allah said he will protect the Kaaba and the people in it cause he said(...waman dakhalahou kana 2aminan) so why did those iranians kill people in the kaaba.....

Yes a lalla God does select who he wants in Heaven and who he wants in Hell, just like deans select who they want in their colleges and who they don`t...
If you are a Good person God will select you to go to heaven, if you are not he will select you to go to Hell...
if you look at it that God will ened your life after you`ve done something Bad, i look at it as you decided to do something Bad right before you die(your fault)

·

12:15 pm    December 8, 2003
Growingsoul
159
Dear Ali,

It is very interesting to see that you have the will to improve things.You are dedicating a lot of time into answering our posts, which is a clear indication to your convinction of the message you're delivering. I applaude your "trying" regardless of how Wrong your are.

Now this is what I see that you cannot get passed:

*****differentiate between mind and soul, logic and spirit, mathematical equations and feelings. *****

***** "Iman" before "Islam" means believe before you follow the rules. In order to be a muslim you have to be a mou2min. "Iman" is to have faith and believe (this is done differently for each person). "Islam" are the sets of rules that a "Mou2min" and only "Mou2min" follows in order to be a Muslim. Therefore you don't have to follow the rules unless you have true faith.*****

Please bear in mind that it has always been hard for any science oriented person to merely accept religion. Nevertheless, there are great, intellectual Arab scientists before you and me who believed and had faith that couldn't be described in a mathematical equation.

Cont'

·

12:14 pm    December 8, 2003
Growingsoul
158
Cont'

Please do not insult our intelligence and say that we don't use our head and logic to reason. I think that most people you're having this discussion/debate with are engineers of a kind. If not engineers then they are intellects, who think logically.

However, your arguments are full of flaws, which indicates that you lack the experience to make a good point and read your adversary point of view much clearer. For example, when I talked about Islam I never dismissed other religions like you ASSUMED about me. I merely defended Islam because it is the one being dismissed by other religions nowadyas, e.g., General Boiken speech in a church. I am in no position to say what people should believe in neither are you.

There is much more to say about all this, but I probably should stop here and elaborate on this later this week.

NB: Before you reply, make sure you read carefully and please don't assume anything that you don't about me or others.

·

11:04 am    December 8, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
157
155
Two observations:

"I just cleansed myself of useless Rituals that are obsolete."

1. such as..
2. You refer to Islam as Islam 1.0 and then you say you refer to your Islam as Islam 2.0, and since you refer to this numbering as versioning you are implying you wish to sell this new upgrade to everyone since it's Two point ow "supposed to be better dear customer".

Ali I suggest you refer to it from now as My mini-Islam. Not Islam, not Islam 2.0. since your mini-Islam is a subset of Islam. Remember you do not have absolute faith in the book and in Prophet Mohammed. Faith in these two are fundamental in Islam.

·

10:54 am    December 8, 2003
Ali
156
146
Dear Negotiator:

I quote you and I point to one of the 99 names of Allah:

1. "bad person"

====> AR-RAHIM (The Mercifull)

2. "you`ll go to hell"

====> AL-GHAFFAR (The Forgiver)

3. "wouldn`t dare to"

====> AL-LATIF (The Subtle One)


4. "Allah damnes the jews and teh Christians"

====> AL-KARIM (The Generous One)


5. "he ONLY damnes those of them that went astray"

====> AR-RASHEED (The Guide To The Right Path)


6. "he damnes the Muslims that are not doing what they are supposed to do"

====> AL-'AFUW (The Pardoner)

7. "Allah said those who associate some body with ALLAH will never enter Heaven"

====> AT-TAWWAB (The Acceptor Of Repentance)


8. "and those who say Lailaha Illa Allah, will not be in Hell forever"

====> AL-WADUD (The Loving)

9. "Al2a3malou bikhawatimiha"

====> AR-RAOOF (The Compassionate)

References:
http://www.dawateislami.net/general/devotions/99names/

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

·

9:38 am    December 8, 2003
Ali
155
145
Dear Lui:

I quote you:

"...I never considered myself a TRUE heaven goer. I am not even sure if I am going to survive today, let alone enter the heavens! This matter is in God?s hand. He can do whatever he wants about it. Neither you nor I can change his decision once done (don?t tell me that you don?t believe in this in your Islam 2.0 !!).
If you made your Islam 2.0 for yourself and family, how come you are preaching it here at raioo?"

1. Please let's not forget the main topic of this discussion: Adapting Islam to the west and vice-versa

2. My mentioning of "my Islam" is part of me adapting to the west. I did not change the big picture about faith, I just cleansed myself of useless Rituals that are obsolete.

3. In order not to "piss off" people of Islam 1.0, I gave myself a different version (Islam 2.0), purely for clarity purposes of posting!

4. The MAJOR benefit in my Islam (2.0) is that I accept other faiths as being true as along as they are compassionate and their followers have Allah like attributes (Think about it: religion must have attributes from the Creator himself/herself/itself: Compassionate, Merciful, Forgiver, etc...).

5. Considering going to heaven or hell, don't worry: If you are a good person, I am giving up my seat in heaven for you!

6. Believe me, showing compassion, love, understanding, etc to non-Muslims in the west, is the best way to adapt to the west. Religious Rituals are only for visual effects!

7. Can you give me the top 3 things you do not like about Islam (be honest!)? and Why either way you answer?

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

·

9:35 am    December 8, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
154
152
Ali, thanks for answering to that post, I wanted to hear what you say. Now that I heard it, I realized something interesting. You know when you say you believe you are part of the Mouqinoun, that's good, I invest in that too; you also say you're pat of the Moutawakiloun and that is cheerfull to hear. However Ali, I find one little thing that you might want to consider: those things that you are investing to understand when you switch the mouqinoun button on, try not to switch the Moutawakiloun button off. It shouldn't be a toggle button. I suggest you still have faith and trust in those things (miracles, stories, etc) as you try to seal their understanding further with logic and science. That way you use both attributes (mouqin + moutawakil) in parallel.

The other category I forgot to mention is Sali7oun :) another one is Moufli7oun.. these all have to do with good behaviour with oneself and others..

Later.

·

9:21 am    December 8, 2003
Ali
153
143
Dear Achraf:

I quote you:

"I just read all your meesages Ali. we'll man I am sure you will die before you finish your project because the Quran is protected by his maker. I am so sorry for your beleives but you are in big trouble.."

My answer:

1. I am already done with my project (Islam 2.0) and I am still alive.

2. I believe in Allah

3. I believe in compassion and helping others (the best I can)

4. I am 100% accepting of other faiths and other people (Gays, Lesbian, tall, short, etc...).

5. I don't know you, yet if you are a good person, I will make sure to give you my seat in heaven!

6. Why am I in big trouble?

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

·

9:12 am    December 8, 2003
Ali
152
151
continued...

10. I agree with you that I am part of the "Dhallin segment". I did go astray to find the real truth about living. I did look beyond human made labels such as Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Jews, etc...I found out that the heart must be cleansed of these human made divisions. I also found out that the brain must be cleansed from the fear associated by "you are either with us or you are wrong". I am afraid that Islam 1.0 (some of it), Christianity (some of it), Judaism (some of it), Hindus (some of it) are using these divisions for pure competition reasons.

11. Yes, if you accept other religions as good, it does mean that you are admitting that your own religion is not the only 100% means to serve Allah!

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

·

9:11 am    December 8, 2003
Ali
151
150
continued...

7. "7aqqa lyaqin. being convinced by the truth and fruits of God's message.": Like I said before, compassion is the ultimate message of Allah!. Yes there are plenty of compassionate people of all faiths on the face of this planet (Christians helping Iraqis, Jews standing up with Palestinians to end the occupation, Muslims helping Bridges TV (www.bridgestv.com) get off the ground in the USA (I donated money to this endeavor, how about the rest of raioosters!), Hindus protecting Muslims being beaten by extremist Hindus, etc...These good people helping each other are the manifestation of being compassionate (There is a GOD attribute in each one of us! Allah the compassionate!)

8. "3ayna lyaqin. being convinced by seeing God or God's message, maybe through miracles.": I personally see God in every good person out there! I saw the birth of my kids! I saw the beauty of earth, the moon and the sky! These are truly miraculous events. I did not see the "Isra Wa al Miaraj" event. Because I was not there. I did not see the "Miraculous fertilization" of Mariam to give birth to Jesus Christ (pbuh), because I was not there. Did these last two "miracles" happen? I do not know (I have my doubts!). And to be quite honest with you, I care less if they actually happened or not. It's the message of Allah to treat fellow humans with compassion that is TRUE and alive!

9. I quote you:

"I think Ali at this time is not ready to be in the Mouqinin province of Muslims (I don't blame him, this province is quiet rare). He is not ready to be in the Moutawakilin province. I hope he's not joining the province of Dhallin (the ones who went astray)."

continued...

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9:10 am    December 8, 2003
Ali
150
139
Dear adnane:

I quote you:

"This post basically says that one of the attributes of Muslim is that he or she has a sincere trust in God and God's message"

1. Yes I read and responded to posing 135. Yes, you can be a logical believer (i.e., use your head) and be a Muslim too (Just be open minded and you will see that after all people are just people!).

2. Using the above quote, it's clear that my definition of Allah (in Islam 2.0): Creator of humanity, earth, moon, etc...coupled with the fact that I believe in my heart that the main message of Allah is that he/she/it wants us to be compassionate to one another without prejudice or marginalization of other people's beliefs as long as they show compassion towards others.

3. As far as being from the Moutawakiloun or the Mouqinoun, I believe I belong to both of them.

4. Before I do anything, I say "Tawakkaltou Ala Allah, the creator of humanity. The just! The merciful! The compassionate! The forgiver!". Obviously if something is not meant to happen, it won't happen no matter what you do!. It doesn't mean a person must stop trying!

5. I also consider myself a member of the Mouqinoun segment.

6. "3ilma lyaqin: being convinced by scientific knowledge, research, logical debates etc.": I do use logic in defining Allah (after all, something/somebody has created humanity, earth, moon, etc...), therefore I believe through "3ilma lyaqin".

continued...

·

8:39 am    December 8, 2003
MB
149
but with Islam, Allah has promissed to protect it forever.

islam is protected??? are u sure about that Achraf??? why do we have ppl like benladen? mollah omar? taliban ??
islam is not an exeption ...we have goods and bads in our religion ...so stop fooling urself ...we are not perfect...

Nego,
You can be a very bad person, and you do something good just before you die and you`ll go to heaven, and you can be the perfect person and do something bad right before you die and you`ll go to hell...,

so god selects who he wants in heaven and hell???? what a nice god u have nego...interesting.. he doesn t even give me a second chance he just ends my life after i do something wrong and boom ...i have to burn in hell ...i hope u don t really believe what u are saying...do u ??:)))
and ohhhh !!! how nice ...we will not burn in hell forever 'coz we believe in allah ...ewa et msaken those who were born christians and jews ...were raised to believe in jesus as the son of god??? we just send them to hell???!!!! i don t think god will judge us on religion...so if u do something wrong no matter what religion u follow u will stay in hell forever my dear....
oulahila kade7ekni a nego ...:))))

·

7:59 am    December 8, 2003
Ali
148
147
continued...

8. I misquote you: "Now whatever doesn't make sense to you in the "BIBLE" doesn't necessarily mean that it is wrong or unfair". So Christianity is acceptable to Allah as well.

9. So it's not necessary to be a Muslim to please Allah!

10. Is it logical NOT to "truly accept" Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, etc..as good people serving Allah on earth (using their way of serving!)? Why can't you be a Muslim and accept these other religions as equal?

11. Or, if you are logical by accepting these OTHER religions, then what's the point of being a Muslim? Do we like to be different from the crowd by being ILLOGICAL?

12. Do you truly feel in your heart as a Muslim that you accept other religions as GOOD religions (do you feel compassion for others)?

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

·

7:58 am    December 8, 2003
Ali
147
138
Dear Growingsoul:

I quote you:

"You seem to foget that Religion has nothing to do with logic my friend.You either believe or you don't. That's what we call Faith.
Remember back in highschool when they taught us "Iman" course before "Islam". There is a reason for that my friend. You have to have the first before jumping to the second."

1. I remember back during my BAC days in Morocco, we took a philosophy class. One of the topics there is about "what is GOD?".

2. We looked at the definition of GOD from different perspectives, Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, etc...

3. After one year of philosophizing about "what is God?", we all asked ourselves again "SO, what is GOD?"

4. So if we take your assertion that "Religion has nothing to do with logic", then I am afraid it does explain why Muslims in the 21st century are failing miserably, THEY DON'T USE THEIR HEADS, and THEY BLINDLY USE RELIGION TO JUSTIFY THINGS!

5. It is wrong for Muslims to silence/censure themselves by not questioning religious issues and making sure that some kind of logic still exist in life.

6. Now, if we are to focus on Islam and Islam alone, it's clear to all of us (Muslims) that any other religion other than ISLAM is not acceptable by ALLAH

7. Since you are saying we have to have FAITH first, it's clear to me that the 2 billion Christians on earth have FAITH in Christ (God/Son/Spirit, etc...), therefore they fall under the logic of Faith first, Religion second scenario you talked about.

continue...

·

7:19 am    December 8, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
146
Same here I never said i`m a heaven Goer or any body else......

Al2a3malou bikhawatimiha, put these two words in your Ears, Again al2a3malou bikhawatimiha, You can be a very bad person, and you do something good just before you die and you`ll go to heaven, and you can be the perfect person and do something bad right before you die and you`ll go to hell...,

Those who have Faith in Allah wouldn`t dare to say they`ll go to heaven or others will go to Hell , except those that Allah told us about.

Regarding the hatred in Quran towards Jews and Christians, i think you should read Quran carefu;;y to see that when Allah damnes the jews and teh Christians he ONLY damnes those of them that went astray, and the Same thing goes for the Muslims , he damnes the Muslims that are not doing what they are supposed to do, so why didn`t you say it spreads hatred towards muslims as well??

Allah said those who associate some body with ALLAH will never enter Heaven..., and those who say Lailaha Illa Allah, will not be in Hell forever...

·

9:54 pm    December 7, 2003
Lui
145
122
Mr Ali,

Please don?t put words, that I didn?t say, in my mouth. I never considered myself a TRUE heaven goer. I am not even sure if I am going to survive today, let alone enter the heavens! This matter is in God?s hand. He can do whatever he wants about it. Neither you nor I can change his decision once done (don?t tell me that you don?t believe in this in your Islam 2.0 !!).

If you made your Islam 2.0 for yourself and family, how come you are preaching it here at raioo?

Thank you?

·

9:44 pm    December 7, 2003
Tarik
144
141
Hi Growingsoul

you know ,,we always tell americans that We are the first country to recognize them .. can you (or anyone here) tell me.. who is the first country that recognized OUR independence..

peace

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9:07 pm    December 7, 2003
Achraf
143
I just read all your meesages Ali. we'll man I am sure you will die before you finish your project because the Quran is protected by his maker. I am so sorry for your beleives but you are in big trouble..
·

8:59 pm    December 7, 2003
Achraf
142
I would like to go back to a previous message. The person said I quote "There is good and bad in every religion. Islam, Christianity, and Judaism are no exception." There is big problem here who told you that Islam is no exception!!! You have to know that if we say something about Islam we have to be sure about it otherwise hell fire is our destiny. I just want to warn you not to say that again and if you think that Islam has bad aspect go read the Quran and The Sunah and they will answer all your question. Islam comes from Allah and he is not like us when he does something it is perfect. Christianity, and Judaism are also from Allah the only difference is that people had changed them but with Islam, Allah has promissed to protect it forever.
·

3:35 pm    December 5, 2003
Growingsoul
141
140
Momo,
You have completely missed the point I was trying to make when I said those FACTS about Americans. Nevertheless, I am going to clarify some of your concerns. You said "americans who can't locate morocco on the map, and how american don't speak foreign language. The answer is simple,the don't have too.". I say why is it that they don't have to? This stuff is very fundamental if your want to be part of the international community. Thing of it this way, we learn other languages because we want to learn from others. Now you might say that Americans don't need to learn from others. I'd say, wrong, current events dictate that they obviously do need to learn about and from other nations.
Let me Correct you when you say Morocco is not significant, Morocco is the first country to recognize United States of America. Yes we don't have a powerful impact on world events nowadays but we are a developing country once was a great country. We have history and you should Honor the ones before us who made Morocco once a great power in the world. No history lessons are needed I think.

I think Moroccans are far more aware of the world map than Americans in general. Trust me, some Americans have a hard time pointing out France in the map.
Well that remains relative of course!!

·

3:16 pm    December 5, 2003
Momo
140
To the guy who is tired of "ignorant" americans who can't locate morocco on the map, and how american don't speak foreign language. The answer is simple,the don't have too.And Morocco is not significant enough for america. Even when our king visist washington,american media don't even bother to report it.I don't think american are stupid because they don't know where is morocco.Try to ask moroccans where is Bourkina Fasso
·

2:50 pm    December 5, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
139
135
This is an interesting post. Ali, did you read it?

This post basically says that one of the attributes of Muslim is that he or she has a sincere trust in God and God's message. They may not have the intellectual capacity to figure it all out and be convinced, but they express great trust in God. God loves these people and he protects them.

Coincidently, today's Friday speech was about some of the atributes of Muslims. God refers to the above mentioned level as Moutawakiloun.

Another level are Mouqinoun. These people are convinced of God and his message in different ways, defined in the Quran as 3:

3ilma lyaqin: being convinced by scientific knowledge, research, logical debates etc.

7aqqa lyaqin. being convinced by the truth and fruits of God's message.

3ayna lyaqin. being convinced by seeing God or God's message, maybe through miracles.

I don't wish to derrail from the main discussion, but I just wanted to point that out in addition to post 135.

I think Ali at this time is not ready to be in the Mouqinin province of Muslims (I don't blame him, this province is quiet rare). He is not ready to be in the Moutawakilin province. I hope he's not joining the province of Dhallin (the ones who went astray).

·

2:08 pm    December 5, 2003
Growingsoul
138
Good point Si Ali.
Anonymous who posted msg 131, 135 would be me.

Others are truly Anonymous to me :)

eager to hear your reply!

·

2:01 pm    December 5, 2003
Ali
137
Dear Anonymous:

There are at least 4 people using the Alias Anonymous, can you please use a different Alias so that We know which contributor and which posting we are talking too.

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

·

1:55 pm    December 5, 2003
Ali
136
127
Dear Antr:

I qoute you:

"It is not only Islam that claims that anybody embrassing a different religion will go to hell .
the Bible also states that who ever doesnt embrace God in Jesus Christ the main savior of mankind, will never see God's face and will be doomed for eternity in the here after .
It is writen in the bible, check it out !
On the other hand, if you read Talmud, you will throw your clothes and run naked screaming in the streets. :)

Such contraversies are not reserved to Islam only, they exist is all the major religions I have looked into ...
Now, how do poeple approach such specific contraversies , that is a different business... "

My Answer:

1. The Christians themselves are re-evaluating their Bible. They are at Christianity 9.0 and Bible 9.0 at this point.

2. There is a church calling theselves the Unitarian church, they have a very good concept that is close to Islam 2.0. They pray in silence and you pick which diety to pray to. That's awesome.

http://www.unitarianscalgary.org/Our_Faith.html

3. There is good and bad in every religion. Islam, Christianity, and Judaism are no exception. Specifically with Jews, have you heard about www.PeaceNow.org. Let's not put all Jews in one category.

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam


·

1:47 pm    December 5, 2003
135
Ali,
What you are saying is not total craziness if taken from a technocrat point of view.
You seem to foget that Religion has nothing to do with logic my friend.You either believe or you don't. That's what we call Faith.

Remember back in highschool when they taught us "Iman" course before "Islam". There is a reason for that my friend. You have to have the first before jumping to the second.

Just like in the Matrix ( I have a feeling this is a cheesy example) when morpheous and others simply believed while others couldn't make sense of the happening.

Now whatever doesn't make sense to you in the "Koraan" doesn't necessarly mean that it is wrong or unfair. Besides tell me what's fair in this life anyway, listening to you is certainly the biggest unjustice of all. What a mockery Islam 2.0. Sorry for the attack couldn't help it.

Jazaka llaho houdan

·

1:41 pm    December 5, 2003
Anonynous
134
The term american-muslim is an oxymoron,you just can't be a muslim and an american at the same time.The Qu'uran is in direct conflict with the constitution.In Islam there's no separation between state and religion,there's no "rendre a Ceasar ce qui est a Ceasar..",only the law of Allah that count.
·

1:31 pm    December 5, 2003
Ali
133
132
continued...

3. As far as discrediting the prophets and the Koran, I believe that not everything in the Koran is necessarily a fact that happened. The Example I gave in our Ramadan discussions include the "Miraculous trip from Mecca to Jerusalem to the 7 heavens, etc..in one night (Israa Wa almiaraj)", it's clear that this event is very iffy indeed. Yes, I hear that it's in the Koran, BELIEVE it it's an order, etc...I just do not believe in things such as those. Same thing with the Miraculous birth of Christ.

4. My feeling about the Koran is this: It's a nice book. It has a lot of good inspiring stories (good vs. evil movies). It has a lot of nice guidelines to help people deal with life and relationships (The Ayya you gave is a perfect example).

5. If I have some time, I will probably try to do the following project: Start from the Koran as it's now. Remove all Ayyat that talk about violence and hatred towards non believers and Gays and Jews, etc...Keep only the good Ayyat such as the one you provided me with. Also, remove all references to Women getting half of what the men get in inheritance. Actually, remove all references to inheritance (it's too confusing). I am confident that even non Muslims will be inspired by what is left (Koran 2.0).

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalm

·

1:31 pm    December 5, 2003
Ali
132
125
Dear adnane:

I quote you:

"Ali, you are free to practice whatever religion you want, whatever version of Islam you want, but as soon as I see that it's affecting those I am responsible for including myself, I will do what's in my rights to protect myself and those I am responsible for and keep them in the right Islam."

My answer:

1. How is Islam 2.0 affecting those you are responsible for? who are these people? And why and what you need to protect?

2. "the right Islam": how do you define the right Islam? before Mohammed (pbuh)? during Mohammed(pbuh)? After the death of Mohammed(pbuh)? or almost 200 years before Boukhari and Moslem traveled the world to compose their Sahih books?.Shiaa?Sunnih? I think it all depends which timeframe you are looking at.

I quote:

"Clearly, the minute you discredit the prophets, the minute you discredit Quran, you are away from my religion. So that is the boundaries that I have identified so far between me and you. Ali, I give you this Ayya maybe it will enlighten all of us inshallah (although I know you don't give credit to Quran but bear with me I just wanted to remind you."

1. The Ayya you mentioned is beautiful. I thank you for digging it up for me. I will add it to my Islam 2.0 features.

2. Reading this Ayya really makes me feel better about my concept of Islam 2.0. Where being compassionate and helping others and praying to Allah, the creator are among the most amazing things a person can do.

continue...

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1:25 pm    December 5, 2003
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Sounds Truly Wonderful!!

Yes Mr. Adnane!!! we the strangers to this land should be making the effort to reach out and extend our affection, knowledge, and culture to the poeple of this country.

YET I and hoppefully others have these questions/issues that frequently pop in the mind.

- I am tired of explaining to each person/American what real islam is all about.
- I am tired of pointing out Morocco in the world map.
- I am tired of people/Americans not knowing the history and/or geography
- I am tired of Americans not caring about their government screwups.
- I am living my life to my parents, i.e., muslims, standards. Each of us live according to some standards, why are we responsible for others' actions?
- Why am I responsible for someone's else ignorance or behavior?

Yes I live in this country, and I am a darn good gest considering the money I pour into this country not forgeting other investments. This host country is certainly providing something good in return but also treating us like a bunch of Camel Jokeys. BELIEVE that!!!
Depending on how "white" you look, you may have experienced, felt this racial profiling in airports, clubs, restaurants, zoo, whatever!!
...please no one tells me that he/she didn't experience that. Because if you didn't, many many others did and this is not about you. (Sorry!!!! this is a preemptive comeback line for what might the poeple say about Not experiencing racial profiling)

OK!! now I got some out of my system ;)

I guess the point is that may be it is not always/all our fault.
Let's face it, we are being judged by people, who do not know about an existing world beyound their country borders.

THAT"S REALITY.

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12:47 pm    December 5, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
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This is what Muslims have to do to co-exist (I prefer this term over adapt) to the west:

1. Do your work honestly. Shine in the company you're working in, the gas station you're working in, Dunkin Donuts, McDonald's, Taxi... Shine, be a good ambassador of your faith.

2. Follow the law of this country they're in.

3. Respect the agreements they signed with this country upon entry. This includes visa contracts, work contracts, government contracts, business contracts etc.

4. Respect the people of this country if they differ from your religion or tradition.

5. Make an effort to learn the language of this country so you can communicate with its people, learn their point of view, and most importantly learn the law and regulations and your boundaries.

6. Know your rights, so you can defend yourself if people hurt you, mistreat you.

7. Never shy away from celebrating your religion, your culture and share it with the people of the west so they can learn your point of view.

8. Condemn any wrong acts performed by your own people in the west and be the first to make a clear cut. Help correct these people not because youe reputation is all of a sudden threatened, but because it is your right to correct a wrong act when you see one.

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12:35 pm    December 5, 2003
Ali
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Dear Antr:

I quote you:

"In all of you messages and even between the lines, I never heard you give credit and shown some obediance to Allah.
Remember that muslims take
their relation with God more seriousely than their relation to themselves.
There is a devine message there wich you tend to undermine if not dicredit .... "

My Answer:

1. My definition of Allah is: creator of humanity, earth, moon, etc...

2. When I am compassionate, loving, helpful towards other less fortunate people, truly accepting of other religions, I am doing it because I know deep inside that good relations with humans and nature are the best way to say to Allah: Thank you for giving me the opportunity to serve.

3. I think I am taking Allah seriously. I am also taking into account other good people: I am accepting of Christians, Jews, Gays, Lesbians, Hindus, Buddhists, etc...What is wrong with this?

4. I know that a lot of Muslims are not accepting of the people in item 3 above. This is very unfortunate.

5. Antr:

===>A. how do you define obedience to Allah?

===>B. What is the devine message that I am undermining?

===>C. What specific things Muslims must do to adapt in the west?

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalm

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12:31 pm    December 5, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
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And by the way, the word Muslims does not mean you belong to Islam, the religion named at the time of Prophet Mohammed. Muslim is a word that was declared way back in time since the days of Ibrahim if not before. So whoever thinks that ayya that says, wa raditou lakoumou Islama dina, means if you're not Muslim as in Muslim belonging to the teachings from time of Prophet Mohammed, your religion is not accepted then you are wrong I hope.

Islam has existed even before Prophet Mohammed, since the beginning. Just like people today try to come up with different sects of Islam: bahaii, qashbandi etc, people in the past came up with christianity and judaism. Obviousely for these latter ones, people manipulated even the meaning of God.

Quran does not express hatred against jews, christians, hindus etc. It distinguishes those who commit aggression from those who don't, it distinguishes those who screw up with people from those who don't.

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12:29 pm    December 5, 2003

Antr McShaddad (Yahia.L) message
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It is not only Islam that claims that anybody embrassing a different religion will go to hell .
the Bible also states that who ever doesnt embrace God in Jesus Christ the main savior of mankind, will never see God's face and will be doomed for eternity in the here after .
It is writen in the bible, check it out !
On the other hand, if you read Talmud, you will throw your clothes and run naked screaming in the streets. :)

Such contraversies are not reserved to Islam only, they exist is all the major religions I have looked into ...
Now, how do poeple approach such specific contraversies , that is a different business...

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12:24 pm    December 5, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
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Follow-up to my previous post. This is the Ayya I wanted to remind you with, that defines Moutaqqoun or Taqwa, an important attribute of Muslims, among others.

Laysa albirra an tuwalloo wujoohakum qibala almashriqi waalmaghribi walakinna albirra man amana biAllahi waalyawmi alakhiri waalmalaikati waalkitabi waalnnabiyyeena waata almala 3ala hubbihi thawee alqurba waalyatama waalmasakeena waibna alssabeeli waalssaileena wafee alrriqabi waaqama alssalata waata alzzakata waalmoofoona bi3ahdihim itha 3ahadoo waalssabireena fee albasai waalddarrai waheena albasi olaika allatheena sadaqoo waolaika humu almuttaqoona.

It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the Allah.fearing.

http://islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/2/2_177.gif

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12:23 pm    December 5, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
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Ali, you are free to practice whatever religion you want, whatever version of Islam you want, but as soon as I see that it's affecting those I am responsible for including myself, I will do what's in my rights to protect myself and those I am responsible for and keep them in the right Islam.

Having said that, what you chose to follow doesn't bother me, laka dinouka waliya din.

Clearly, the minute you discredit the prophets, the minute you discredit Quran, you are away from my religion. So that is the boundaries that I have identified so far between me and you. Ali, I give you this Ayya maybe it will enlighten all of us inshallah (although I know you don't give credit to Quran but bear with me I just wanted to remind you). Please find it in my next post.

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12:17 pm    December 5, 2003
Anonynous
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Why muslims are full of hate,you hate chrisian,you hate jews,you hate atheists,you hate budhists,you hate women,in short you hate everybody who dosen't follow mohamed teachings and etc.
I read the Qu'uran is full of hate and contempt for non-believers.
Seriousely something is wrong with you.
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11:37 am    December 5, 2003
Ali
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continued...

7. Since we are talking about adaptation of Islam in the West in this topic, and based on your answers, there is no problem taking different features from different religions (Islam, Judaism, Bahaii, Christianity, Islam 2.0, etc...) and living by those principle a good life (increase helping others, being compassionate, fair, etc..).

8. This is my Islam 2.0. I designed it for me and my family. It's CORE is based on a one-to-one relationship with my creator Allah (forget the prophets, the koran, the sunna, the fiqh, the fatwas). It's MAIN FEATURE is accepting other religions. It's MAIN PROTOCOL is compassion, love, and helping others.

9. adnane, I have given many features of Islam 2.0. I still do not know which of the features I choose that bother you. Please be specific.

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

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11:37 am    December 5, 2003
Ali
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Dear adnane:

I quote you:

"At the end, of course it boils down to the balance God will use on all humans whether you're arab, Berber, zimbabowe, american indian.. the balance is simple principle: Fa aMa Man thaqoulat Mawazinouhou Fahouwa Fi 3ishatin radia, Wa amma man khaffat mawazinouhou fa oummouhou hawiya, wa ma adraka mahiya, naroun 7amiya."

My Answer:

1. Very good analysis. This is what I work in my life to achieve (compassionate, help others, etc...). BUT...

2. What is your answer to Muslims who will use the Koran to justify that non-Muslims are Kafirs going to Hell (Wa radeeto Lakomo Al Islama Dina)?

3. Based on your analysis, good Christians who believe that Christ is the SON of Allah, and good Hindus who pray through "Genesh", the Hindu elephant GOD are going to have a good after life because they lived a life helping others (food, medicine, charity work worldwide, etc...). Their scale is full of good deeds.

4. So being a Muslim is not the only ticket to a better after life (Islam 2.0, Christianity, Hinduism, Bahaii, Jews, are also good tickets to a better after life).

5. Negotiator, Lui, and others in this forum of course seem to refuse this concept of other religions to be acceptable. And yet, they consider themselves the TRUE heaven goers and that's it.

6. To further comment on item 4 above, Ramadan is just a Ritual that Muslims do to get some good points. It should not be as something Muslims have to do to go to heaven. It sounds optional.

continued...

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11:36 am    December 5, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
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For the last Eid, it was on Tuesday here also. People went to the mosque early in the morning, observed the Eid in the traditional way, and whoever had to go back to work went to work. The whole Eid salat doesn't take more than an hour. It starts usually at 7:30am and ends by 8:30 or 9am.

What people did here was a Eid festival, and that they scheduled it for Sunday. Northeastern University hosted the event, people got to meet friends they haven't seen in years, kids had a blast in the game room which had this gigantic baloon house, women socialzed also with friends and men together.

Ali, you make it sound like people are not making an effort to make things easier for them, when they are and you just have to look around.

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11:36 am    December 5, 2003
AL
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To both 7areq & Adnan;
Please do not "chase" Ali away from this forum...I in fact find his contribution to this subject very interesting indeed...I happen to agree with a lot of what he is saying here...and I do not see why his suggestions should be "rediculed"..
I for one do not give a rat's a** about RELIGION...Any religion...I do not believe that Islam is THE religion or any of what the ultra-conservatives want us all to believe...What I am for is FREEDOM..if this makes someone born in Morocco "unfit" in the eyes of the Ultra conservative / religious zealots/ defenders of the REAL islam...etc, then I am GLAD I am not a part of them....I am also GLAD to be living in the WEST where my FREEDOM is NEVER in doubt....I do not want this Forum to be dominated by the "single" view point of the religious "zealots"..who call themselves the REAL Muslims / try to redicule all those who do not "fit" their 'Mold"...I am for people like Ali who keep "thinking"..rather than vlindly "imitating" what others have done / are doing; just so that he can be called a "Good" Muslim !!...
Si Ali;
Allah Yehfdek a Khay !!!
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11:35 am    December 5, 2003

Antr McShaddad (Yahia.L) message
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====> I. Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Atheists, Guys, Lesbian, etc...are MUSLIMS, as long as they are good people!"


Rak khaletti she3ban m3a hanuka ! :)
Tell a good atheist that he is a Muslim and he wil take that as an insult .
A Christian does not consider a good Muslim or Budhist as christian either.
So your source code seem to be corrupted.

A christian in Morocco should have the right to eat porc is he wish to do so.
I remember outside Casa (boussekoura) there used to be a farm breeding pigs and distributing porc meat to butchers who who sell it .
Likeways, you should have the right to eat Halal meat if you wish to do so.
You can not change the calendar of religious anniversaries and their meaning , yet call that an up graded Islam or Hinduism .
and finally you should not shape your islam according to what makes the non
tolerent section of non muslims feel confortable with.
Poeple are more concerned about the devine message of Islam, wich is a personal relationship between themselves and their creator through their habits and acts . And Muslims believe in the judgement day, Heaven and Hell .
You tend to ignore that part ...

And by the way, during 3ashoura, should Santa Claus wear his skiis and a red hat, or ride a camel wearing a Polish Turban?
:)


In all of you messages and even between the lines, I never heard you give credit and shown some obediance to Allah.
Remember that muslims take
their relation with God more seriousely than their relation to themselves.
There is a devine message there wich you tend to undermine if not dicredit ....

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10:01 am    December 5, 2003
Ali
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Dear adnane:

I quote you:

"For Eid, you can take a day vacation, go to the mosque in the morning, take your kids and wife with you and enjoy it. If your employer gives you hard times then you ought to defend your right, but avoid blaming that on Islam."

My Answer:

1. For professional people with higher Education, this is not a problem, WE get paid well, we have enough vacation days, we do not get paid by the hour. For Gas station workers, people who work for Palestinian shops (Dollar stores), cooks at restaurants, etc...That is a MAJOR problem.

2. The reality is: when you have kids at school, Homework for the kids MUST be made up. And Eid-Al-Fitr happens to be on Wednesday. You are putting too much guilt and burden on Muslims to hurry up at 8:00 am to go to Salat Al-Eid and back to work (open the Gas station for business), no real celebrations for the Kids, because they know they have to make up the work.

3. What I am talking about above just happened two weeks ago. People not showing up to the Eid-Salat and the Edi-Party (Tuesday was Eid-Al-Fitr, we do not know the exact date for the Eid until around 9 pm, the night before, this means how do you plan to close that Gas station or Dollar store, or plan for a backup person to open business, or the kids not attending school, etc...). An intelligent person will start analyzing the reasons behind this "Hectic Eid event", something has to change!

4. Since we all claim that Islam is flexible, "Dino yussren", etc...Let's practice what we preach! Islam 2.0 is my solution!

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

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9:28 am    December 5, 2003
7areg
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Assalamou alikoum
Ali: la 7awla wa la 9ouwwata ill billah. you got so westernized that you're trying to change fundamental laws in islam, to please and to get the blessing and integration in your environment. well let me tell you that if you practice islam you do it for yourself ( wa ALLAHOU GHANIYOUN 3ani AL 3ALAMINE ). + the concept of software like islam versions does not and will not apply softwares improve every year because they are MAN MADE while ISLAM is THE RELIGION of GOD
+ and about ethiests and gays & lesbians going to paradise ==> " Rabbana la tou'2akhidna bima fa3alahou assoufaha2ou mina " Lay yehdina we yehdik
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9:19 am    December 5, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
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What is it in Islam that is not working out in the west?

I say that Islam, the genuine religion, is working out fine in the west. I honestly cannot think of a teaching of islam that is causing problems. What I can think of is teachings of Islam that ARE NOT PRACTICED, which are the ones causing problems. People who do not work honestly. People who commit to violence, swearing and name-calling as the first options without exhausting all options of negotiation, peace and understanding. People who do not excercie their right of flexibility that Islam offers; they put so much restrictions on themselves and their famillies on the subjects of food, clothing, living areas, finance, education, etc.

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9:12 am    December 5, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
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Regarding 4. Going to heaven or hell Ali is not up to you or me to decide, let's be clear on that.

There are people who never were exposed to Islam, yet they behave with such a good instinct. There are Muslims who behave like hyinnas and wolves, they say what they don't do, they steal money from people, step on people to get their stuff done.

At the end, of course it boils down to the balance God will use on all humans whether you're arab, Berber, zimbabowe, american indian.. the balance is simple principle: Fa aMa Man thaqoulat Mawazinouhou Fahouwa Fi 3ishatin radia, Wa amma man khaffat mawazinouhou fa oummouhou hawiya, wa ma adraka mahiya, naroun 7amiya.

(those whose balance produces a heavier good side will live a peaceful life - in heaven I assume - and those whose balance presents a lighter good side will suffer in hell)

How does the balanace get filled:

wa man ya3mal mithqala dharratin sharran Yarah, wa man ya3mal Mithqal dharratin Sharran yarah.

(if you do the smallest of good it will be accounted for in the balanace, and if you do the smallest of bad it will be accounted for in the balanace)

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8:50 am    December 5, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
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Ali your points do not offer the best way to make Islam co-exist in the west because they clearly strip Islam out of its genuine identity. Maybe you will end up considering converting to Christianity or judaism :) I think it works great for you because you don't seem to care about your identity anymore. If you are going to go for this transformation Ali, go alone, try it and see if it works for you. If at the end of the experiment you find yourself better adapted to the west while you kept a genuine faith and belief in the teachings and lifestyle of Islam then come back to Raioo.com and share with us your findings, satisfcations and muzings.
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8:49 am    December 5, 2003
Ali
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continued...

5. One way to change Islam is to introduce names or versions. If you introduce names, you get Bahaii, Shiaa, Sunni, Protestant Muslims, etc...I prefer versions such as software versions in order to start from a base version Islam 1.0, remove the features that are not acceptable in 2003, and add features that make sense. For me I use Islam 2.0. Who knows, 10 years from now when I move to China and find a different culture there, I will adapt my Islam 2.0 to the Chinese culture and name it "Islam 3.0, Chinese edition". My way of doing Islam is very interesting indeed.

6. Now enough about my Islam 2.0. The topic of this discussion is Adapting Islam to the West. What are specific things in Islam 1.0 that you believe are just not working in the west. Be honest!

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

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8:49 am    December 5, 2003
Ali
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Dear adnane:

I quote you:

"They believe in all religions, all prophets, they're like Hippies, love, peace and happiness. I know one thing Ali, and please take this and reflect on it on your own time:
How come you are having hard times selling your Islam 2.0 to all the Muslim readers of raioo?."
My Answer:

1. I am not selling Islam 2.0 to the readers of raioo. I do not believe in converting people. I am just letting people here at raioo know that there are many faces to Islam.

2. During the Ramadan discussions we had, I mentioned the different faces or adaptations of Islam (Bahaii, Sufism, Druze, etc...). This topic is about adapting Islam to the west. It's clear that looking at other Muslim flavors is a good starting point.

3. Yes, I did debate with Negotiator and others the accuracy of Koran 1.0 and prophet Mohammed (pbuh). The reason why it was necessary to do that is because "old Muslims" DO NOT ACCEPT THAT OTHER RELIGIONS ARE JUST AS GOOD AS ISLAM. Why? because they say the Koran says so.

4. I totally disagree with you when you say that Islam does not need reform. Are Non-Muslims going to heaven? Are the Inheritance rules complex and unjust? Why are Muslim women not allowed to preach and become Imama, etc...? Are Guys and Lesbians accepted in Islam, even as Imams?. To address any of these fundamental issues, you have to change the CORE of Islam (Koran). otherwise we have the Chicken and Egg scenario. Muslims point to the Koran for answers and the Koran points to the Muslims to change.


continued...

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8:43 am    December 5, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
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Number SIX is not true Ali. I don;t know how it goes in your neighboorhood, work and familly, but here we have no problems whatsoever going to the mosque for the Friday prayer, we have no problems fasting in Ramadan and no problems enjoying Eid.

For Eid, you can take a day vacation, go to the mosque in the morning, take your kids and wife with you and enjoy it. If your employer gives you hard times then you ought to defend your right, but avoid blaming that on Islam.

For Ramadan, the Islamic centers make more than necessary to provide for the community the best spiritual atmosphere. We should be ever thankful for that, and support them whenever we can.

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8:03 am    December 5, 2003
Ali
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continued...

====> H. Evangelical Muslims (and Christians) must stop evangelizing and converting people to Islam/Christianity. This is a BAD act. It causes competition and wars (Sudan, Egypt, Kosovo, etc...). A person must never be converted, Islam is not a DVD player. If you have a flexible religion that changes with time, people will come to you instead of you going to them to convert them.

====> I. Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Atheists, Guys, Lesbian, etc...are MUSLIMS, as long as they are good people!

8. The above alphabetical items are some of my ways as a Muslim to ADAPT to the American lifestyle.

9. Please, let me know why the above items should not be considered an adaptation of Islam to the western lifestyle.

10. One of the topics of this discussion is adapting Islam in the west, I am proposing ways for us Muslims to adapt.

11. So far I haven't heard another practical and realistic way to adapt Islam to the west. Everyone seems to like the idea that old Islam is perfect and it's Muslims who are bad. This same old execuse has gotten us nowhere (in the West nor the east). Something new has to be proposed. I put myself on the line of fire.

12. How do you see yourself adapting to the west (NOT the west adapting to you!) and how Islam must change to accomplish that?

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

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7:57 am    December 5, 2003
Ali
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continued...

7. Since I live in the west as a Muslim, there are things in Islam 1.0 that I personally found do not make sense anymore.

====> A. Halal vs. Haram meat: I changed my Islam to state: Eat Beef, Chicken, Lamb, Turkey sold in American food market.

====> B. Friday prayers: I moved them to Sunday. This way Muslims in the west do not have to rush and deal with work schedules anymore. Also, Christians and Jews worship on Sunday. This means that you will see Muslim families get up on Sunday and go to prayers just like their neighbors.

====> C. Ramadan: I moved it to December to coincide with Christmas, Hanukah, Kwanza. This way Muslims, Jews, and Christians have a month to celebrate. The malls will have Muslim things to sell to Muslims.

====> D. Ramadan definition: Fast a minimum of 1 day. A maximum of 30 days. Sick, Elderly, Kids, Unable, Headachs, etc.....are exempt.

====> E. Eid-Al-Fitr: I moved it to Jan-1. The rest of the world enjoys "New Years Day". I enjoy my Eid-Al-Fitr.

====> F. Eid-Al-Adha: I moved this one to Thanksgiving. A Turkey is just as good as a Lamb.

====> G. Women: have the right to become Imama, judges, call people to prayer (Adhan), lead Muslims in prayers, etc...The west is right when they say that the Muslims not Islam put woman down!


continued...

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7:54 am    December 5, 2003
Ali
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Dear Anonymous:

I quote you:

"3- Why does islam have to adapt itself with the west, and why not the west adapt themselves with islam? Why do we have always to see the west a prototype to what we do."

My Answer:

1. The west did not force you to come and live in the west. If you do not like living in the west, go back to your country.

2. So I say both Islam and Muslims in the west have to adapt and change (even if we have to do things that "seem" to contradict the Koran"). Just use the flexibility that is a built in part of Islam

3. The problem with using this flexibility of Islam, is that you get all of this so called "Muslims" who keep labeling you as Pagan, Non-Muslim, hypocrite, Bad Muslim, etc...

4. I totally disagree with the idea that Islam is the last religion. And the fact that Every person in the world Must do Islam to please Allah.

5. That's why I prefer giving a version to my Islam (i.e., Islam 2.0, western edition). "Lakom Islamokom, wa Lya Islami".

6. Please remember that the Majority of Muslims in the west are still looking up to the Muslims in the Middle-East or other Muslim countries for guidance. It's OK but it seems to me that Western Muslims need to solve their own problems. Why? because we live here. We eat her. We do "Ramadan" here. We have problems getting to "Friday prayers" here. We have problems "Fasting" here (school kids). We have problems celebrating Eid-Al-Fitr and Eid-Al-Adha here. We have socializing problems here.

continued...

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3:55 am    December 5, 2003

abdelilah message
107
I suggest that you pick each point that you differ about (secularism, women's issues, penal code...) and discuss it in light of the schools of thought in Islam (progressive school, traditional...).
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8:59 pm    December 4, 2003
Tarik
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algerians are our brothers..

you should care about the sahraoui people, not that you are strong enough to take it..

you should be focusing on you rinternal problem..

100,000 innocent lives thave perished!

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8:45 pm    December 4, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
105
Ali, you write a lot man, you and Negotiator (Tlaqitou, wafaqa shannoun tabaqa) :) let's try to write max 120 words.

Anyways, I personnaly think that Ali brings some good points that make use of the flexibility of Islam, but unfortunately he does not realize for a second that he doesn't have to call that: transitioning to another version of Islam. He doesn't realize that putting it like that is a turn off. He doesn't realize that putting as: enriching, strengthening Islam is a better alternative. Ali is inspired by Bahaii sect. Bahaii is a one size fits all (like Antr said once). They believe in all religions, all prophets, they're like Hippies, love, peace and happiness. I know one thing Ali, and please take this and reflect on it on your own time:

How come you are having hard times selling your Islam 2.0 to all the Muslim readers of raioo?

You can see that sometimes you question the purity of Quran and Prophet Mohammed harshly. These aspects are extremely respected for Muslims. These are the points you are losing on (reflect on it). You seem to totally ignore the beautiful fact that Islam offers flexibility, and encourages us to use that flexibility to solve any new issues that come up with time. You mention from time to time that radicals hijacked Islam. Whenever I read you say that I say to myself, great, Ali is back to the subject.

My point Ali is not Islam that needs reform, but people's sick manipulations of Islam that need reform. Somehow you can't take this thought and build on top of it. You have to bash Islam. So again I ask you:

How come you are having hard times selling your Islam 2.0 to all the Muslim readers of raioo?

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4:41 pm    December 4, 2003
104
To Brother Ali:
1- Just for the sake and respect of all our muslim brothers, don't quote that there are islam 1.0 and islam 2.0, This is not AOL.
2- Talk about having your own doctrine, and don't label yourself as a muslim, and keep your innovations to yourself.
3- Why does islam have to adapt itself with the west, and why not the west adapt themselves with islam? Why do we have always to see the west a prototype to what we do.
4- another thing about Halal meat and haram meat. Allah knows that we will find ourselves sometimes in situation like living abroad, if you can't find halal meat, just eat McDo, and say Bismillah(in the Name of Allah).
5- I noticed one thing about your posting, you roam around the same ideas, without laying them down.
6- Brother Ali, your version of Islam(which is 2.0) as you mentioned is not a religion, It's called being Pagan.
7- This subject is old, we should move on, we can't get stuck in Islam. If you are a real muslim, just change yourself, and everything will follow.

Guys, be proud of being muslims, cos that makes us different, and I love being different. Just last ramadan, in my job, we had lunch meeting, and the fact you tell evereybody that i am fasting, you can feel respect in their eyes, they see you working hard , and motivated. Your religion will be a problem only if you are weak, so put your faith in God and everything will be fine.
Salam Brothers.

·

3:23 pm    December 4, 2003
Ali
103
87
Dear Tarik:

I qoute you:

"Again you talked about your vision for a better religion,, which is ok, but i asked you to ONLY tell me what you wanna keep from the original isalm.."

My Answer:

These are the main things staying from the original Islam (aka Islam 1.0)

1. Definition of Allah: creator of humanity, earth, moon, etc...compassionate, merciful, forgiver, understanding (99 Assmao Al hosna)

2. Keep theKoran as it is: BUT, read it as a NICE set of feel good stories and general guidlines not LAWS. So that you get inspired by some of them (example loving one another, helping each other, etc...)

3. However, Inheritence, Halal Haram Beef/etc...Killing Jews/Christians, cutting hands, stoning people, all of these acts are strictly forbidden in the new Islam.

4. posting 98/99 also add some new items.

5. So the only thing that ALL MUSLIMS (old Islam and new Islam) agree on is Allah the cretator!

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

·

3:04 pm    December 4, 2003 This is an unrelated or foul message..
SAYF
102
THE SAHARA BELONGS TO ALGERIA TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT WE ARE MORE STRONGER THEN U ARE BUNCH OF DRUG DEALERS LONG LIVE ALGERIA WE WILL PREVAIL
·

2:56 pm    December 4, 2003 This is an unrelated or foul message..
allal
101
CR?TICA MUY DURA
Pues as? fue el resultado, la goleada, que no pudo ser peor. "Perdimos muchos balones, nos equivocamos desde el inicio, no supimos controlar, nos marcaron enseguida y chutamos poqu?simo a la porter?a del M?laga
·

2:50 pm    December 4, 2003
Ali
100
94
Dear Negotiator:

1. The problem with your logic Negotiator is that, I am asking for your Fatwa website location (stated in posting 16-17-18). And you continue to avoid providing a reference to it. I assume you do not have one.

2. I gave you a Fatwa stating that Eating Meat at McDonalds in the USA is Haram based on this Fatwa:

Reference:

http://www.nooremadinah.net/Library/Docs/VariousSubjectinIslam/38.html

3. So my question now becomes: Maybe we have two Fatwas, one says Halal, the other says Haram. What in the world are we supposed to believe in? And who has the legal authority to pass a Fatwa?

4. Since your answers are not direct, I gave a Fatwa to myself as Follows: Eating Beef, Chicken, Turkey, and Lamb bought from USA food-markets is HALAL

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

·

2:41 pm    December 4, 2003
Ali
99
98
continued...

====>B. I do believe in my heart that you do not have to be a Muslim to go to heaven. I believe that Hindus, Jews, Bhudists, Christians are just as good as Muslims. This means that even if the Koran and Sunnah, and fiqh, etc...are telling us that "Muslim or else". I do not buy it!

====>C. I believe that a person's relationship directly to Allah and the one-on-one prayers with the creator (Allah) are far more important than memorizing the Koran, fasting 30 days of Ramadan, plus fasting six days of shawal + plus fasting every Monday and Thirsday, praying 5 times a day (the way muslims do it today). These are RITUALS. Just like the Arabs during Jahiliya used to pray to Idols. You want to pray, you can do it while driving your car! you can pray while taking a shower. Hek! you can pray while having SEX with your partner!

7. We are talking about adapting Islam to the west. Adaptation means change. Change means something has to go. Something has to go means looking at the old Islam and deciding what makes sense and what does not make sense in the 21st century. Yes, I am taking from the old Islam what makes sense and I am throwing away what does not make sense (that's why I like to label myself as a Muslim 2.0 person. To distinguish myself from Islam 1.0 followers.)

8. Islam must be about compassion, life, love, understanding, and flexibility. I wish Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) were alive and join this discussion with all of us!

JazakomoAllaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

·

2:38 pm    December 4, 2003
Ali
98
96
Dear muslim:

I quote you:

"your version of islam and changing what you wanna change was done a long time ago by many jews (na3altou allahi 3alyhoum), "

My Answer:

1. In the old Islam mentality, Baching the Jews is permitted. This is wrong.

2. How do you feel when you hear something like this: "

====>A. "Muslims NAALATOU Allahi AALyhoum"
====>B. "Muslims Hachakoum"

3. You see, it does not sound fair. Right!

4. Now, the main topic of this discussion is how Muslims in the west should adapt?

5. As a Muslim myself, I am finding a lot of things that are wrong with what I call the old Islam (or, Islam 1.0). These things do not work in the West and poor Muslims are still fighting an uphill bottle that does not make sense.

6. Just to give you a few examples of things from the old Islam that I refuse to do in my new Islam (also known as Islam 2.0):

====>A. Eat Beef, Lamb, Turkey, Chicken served in America by Americans (Christians, Jews, Hindus, Bhudists, Atheists, Guy, Lesbian). This allowed me to be invited to socialize with my American neighbors in their home and I also invite/socialize with my American neighbors in my home. This way, these American Christians get a chance to at least know me as a "Non Christian but Muslim" person who does not believe in Christ being the GOD/son of God, my roots are from an Islamic civilization, and yet I believe in Allah (creator of humanity, earth, moon, etc..)

continued....

·

12:52 pm    December 4, 2003
9ard3ellaL
97
93
Ali ,

The real problem is not about Islam vrs modern Christianity, the root causes are political .
Greed and the hunger for power would create a war between a mouse and it's fellow mouse....
Just 20 years ago, nobody would care about how you live and wether you eat a halal fakroune or none halal Guenfoud.
A muslim and his habit where as mysteriouse as a chineese's .
Now the muslims are under the microscope, simply because they have something that Bush and his followers want badly : A large market with over one billion of potential consumers, and serious reserve of oil wich need to be conquered . And that cann't be successfully achieved without getting rid of the islamic "Fire wall"... (The system belief does not allow certain businesses to flourish in islamic countries, I let you think about the details...)
Drifting away from the main issue and arguing wether BurgerKing is more islamic than McDonalds is irrelevent and silly .
The problem will remain there wether you would eat kosher , or turn into a vegetarian Budhist monk . ;)


·

10:47 am    December 4, 2003
muslim
96
dear ali

It looks that you animating the discussion here but what i see that you saying nothing. you version of islam and changing what you wanna change was done a long time ago by many jews (na3altou allahi 3alyhoum), those who wanted to change in the Islam.
the hard work you doing here to explain your version is useless because (al7a9o bayin wa al batilo bayin).
i'm crying when i see a person like talking about the islam. how we can show the others Islam and there are some people like you.

lah ihdik ou safi.
b9a lik chwya ou ghadi tmout istghfir rabak 9abla an tamout.

·

10:05 am    December 4, 2003
Lui
95
93
Mr Ali,

Thank you for making me understand your French once again. Your posts still prove to me that it is useless to discuss anything with you now. Once you succeed of getting out of your useless infinite loops give me a sign and I?ll be more than glad to talk about anything with you. Until then, I assure you that my temper is at its normal level. Thanks for loving me?

Thank you?

·

8:52 am    December 4, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
94
This is the second time i`m gonna ask you , do you read what you write???
here is something from the link you gave us , look at Point number 3, and read it carefully....

Halal
1. Meat of permitted 4 footed animals on which Allah?s name has been pronounced at the time of slaughter

2. Meat that is otherwise haram under force of necessity without willful disobedience of Allah

3. Meat of animals slaughtered by Jews and Christians as long as they follow their own Book

·

8:37 am    December 4, 2003
Ali
93
86
Dear Lui:

I quote you:

"I will not follow your useless logic once again, unless I sense that you are trying to get to some goals. Until then, don?t expect me to answer your questions even if you direct them directly to me. Why should I answer your questions while you don?t care about other people?s questions? At least, I am telling it to your face that I will not answer your questions now."

My Answer:

1. Thanks for the feedback my brother in Islam.

2. Based on your "hot temper in the above answer", it's clear that this discussion is a hot one indeed (you are a good gauge on how a discussion is doing).

3. Just in case you do not speak French or others are not paying attention to the topic, here is an English translation of the main points of this discussion:

===>A. The title of this topic is: "Why is Islam having a hard time selling itself in the West?"

===>B. Are Muslims racist?

===>C. Does Islam need to ADAPT to the west? Why and How?

===>D. Does the West need to ADAPT to Islam? Why and How?

4. Do you have anything to contribute to this discussion? or your view is: ISLAM IS DOING GREAT IN THE WEST. NO PROBLEMS AT ALL!!!

5. If you don't have anything to contribute, it's OK. Continue reading the postings, they are very informative!

6. I still love you my Lui! (compassion and love of my version of Islam!)

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

·

8:09 am    December 4, 2003
Ali
92
84
Dear Negotiator:

I quote you:

"This is wrong....., You based all you judgment on this statement, witch is not true, it is allowed to Muslims to eat chicken , lamb, Beef, according to a fatwa that was released way Back....,we can eat from the jews`s food, they slaughter the same way we do(even better)"

Here's the Koran (5:2-5, Surat Al-Maidah verse 2-5):

http://quran.al-islam.com/Targama/DispTargam.asp?nType=2&nSora=5&nAya=2&nSeg=46&l=eng&t=eng

1. You have yet to give us a link to the "FATWA" you are talking about

2. Here is a reference to a Fatwa on Halal/Haram meat which clearly says that a BIG MAC meat from the USA is Haram

3. There are also references to other documents where some people say Halal some people say Haram

4. So based on the above items, it's clear to me the Muslims are not united on this Halal/Haram meat (adaptation problems in the west).

5. This means that many groups of Muslims in the wets are following their own version of Islam (mine is Islam 2.0, where eating meat sold at McDonalds and Western markets is ALLOWED)

References:

A. http://www.nooremadinah.net/Library/Docs/VariousSubjectinIslam/38.html

B. http://www.contactpakistan.com/news/news143.htm

C. http://www.islamonline.net/english/Science/2002/03/article3.shtml

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

·

7:22 am    December 4, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
91
kULLA YELGHI BELGHAH
·

5:09 am    December 4, 2003

Rasta Gnawi message
90
Good to be back and too see discussions are still hot.

Not sure if Islam needs to sell itself to others. I think it needs to be purged of silly radicals whose faillure and loss of self-confidence have become irreparable in a universe created on the basis of growth.

France has its own vices in that its history with muslims has been malignant. other peoples have been more fair and hence have created an environment of faith propagation and absorption.

C u back in a few. FH + AB: wash bqat shi hrira wella ghir lkhwa? rah zadounna nhar dyal ssyam flmeghreb!

·

12:26 am    December 4, 2003
9ard3ellaL
89
87
"and WHY is there a need for it, can we instead just follow the modern chrisitianity that is practiced here, that way we'll have easier tiem integratign in this country"

- I wouldnt say it in any better...
Negociator would be ready to cut his own head off and believe that he could run a marathon :) provided it it is mentioned in islam, while Ali would be ready to turn the Quran into a Walt Disney book provided it's content would be sellable and digested with confort by all masses (including gays, drunkers and gamblers)
Each one of them is standing at the opposite extreme.
the Truth has to be somewhere else...


·

8:27 pm    December 3, 2003
MB
88
Off topic...

En parlant de viande les gars ..check this out:

"D?but du proc?s d'un Allemand jug? pour cannibalisme"

http://www.lefigaro.fr/international/20031203.FIG0261.html

nass ils ont depasse la viande 7alal et 7aram ...lol...

·

3:33 pm    December 3, 2003
Tarik
87
85
Hi ALI,

Again you talked about your vision for a better religion,, which is ok, but i asked you to ONLY tell me what you wanna keep from the original isalm..
so i can see how far is that from islam, and judge whether this can be an isalm 2.0 or whether it' s a whole new religion..

and WHY is there a need for it, can we instead just follow the modern chrisitianity that is practiced here, that way we'll have easier tiem integratign in this country

lata

·

2:45 pm    December 3, 2003
Lui
86
83
Mr Ali,

I will not follow your useless logic once again, unless I sense that you are trying to get to some goals. Until then, don?t expect me to answer your questions even if you direct them directly to me. Why should I answer your questions while you don?t care about other people?s questions? At least, I am telling it to your face that I will not answer your questions now.

Please be considerate of the other raiootist and stop wasting their time in your useless discussions.

Thank you

·

2:33 pm    December 3, 2003
Ali
85
82
Dear Tarik:

I quote you:

"what's left of the 'original' islam in your version of islam, can you list them"

My answer:

This is a partial list of what is left in the original Islam:

1. Compassion for other people and other faiths

2. Believing in the fact that Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, etc are good people who will go to heaven just like good Muslims

3. The fact that you do not have to be a Muslim and believe in both Mohammed (pbuh) and Koran to go to heaven

4. The fact that All Holy books are good reference material for general guidelines about how to live and love. You do not have to follow the 100% teachings of the Koran to go to heaven. Yes, go ahead and Eat "NON HALAL" BEEF and TURKEY with your Christian neighbors. Allah is very understanding. After all, he/she/it created both Christians and Muslims

5. Showing love and forgiveness and tolerance towards others is the Best way that Islam can succeed and adapt in the 21st century.

6. I do not want to be part of an Islam that allows the cutting of hands, the stoning of men and woman, the preferential treatment of men over women (inheritance, Imam vs. Imama, etc...)

7. I certainly feel that true, fair, and simple minded Muslims MUST take Islam BACK from those fundamentalists who have hijacked it and made it complex and unjust (assuring its demise in the 21st century)


Jazakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

·

2:20 pm    December 3, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
84
6. Negotiator, on the other hand, is talking about Veggies and Fish, completly ignoring to face the real HARAM MEAT question (He has no clue what he's talking about and he is very vague in his answers, so I have no idea where he stands on this issue). I still love him and respect him as brother in Islam.

Listen buddy, I chalenge you to bring where I said fish in my early posts....., even once, I bet you can`t find it cause i never said Fish in alla my posts....., why you try to create lies and live with them??

To answer your question Again, i will tell you i`m not like you , i don`t like to repeat things 10 times, i answered the question you are talking about now, in my first reply, to make sure go double check on Posts 17-18-19 you`ll find all teh answers to your questions and specifically the Macdo question ....
When you do go back and check i would love to ask you who is Ignoring to face the real haram meat answer? you say i don`t have a clue on what i`m talking about, at least i pay attention to what i write and read, not like you !!!!!

·

2:02 pm    December 3, 2003
Ali
83
81
Dear Lui:

1. Nice to hear from you again!

2. One of the topics of this discussion is how to adapt Islam to the west (and vice-versa).

3. If you have read my earlier posting in this discussion, you probably saw one of my questions about Halal/Haram Meat and its social effects on Muslims in America (adaptation problem).

4. So, here I repeat the question I gave to both Negotiator and Tarik.

"IS IT 100% OK for a MUSLIM to EAT A BIG MAC AT McDonalds anytime he/she wants? YES or NO?"

5. Tarik seems to agree that it's OK to eat MEAT bought from NON HALAL places (i.e McDonalds, etc..), even though he did not give a YES or NO answer

6. Negotiator, on the other hand, is talking about Veggies and Fish, completly ignoring to face the real HARAM MEAT question (He has no clue what he's talking about and he is very vague in his answers, so I have no idea where he stands on this issue). I still love him and respect him as brother in Islam.

6. So, Lui, what do you think about this food adaptation issue?


Jazakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam


Just to let you know that Tarik seems to agree to the fact that eating

·

1:51 pm    December 3, 2003
Tarik
82
77
what's left of the 'original' islam in your version of islam, can you list them
·

1:35 pm    December 3, 2003
Lui
81
77
Mr Ali,

After going over your posting in this discussion, it looks to me that you didn?t learn a thing from our last discussion!

Reference:
http://www.raioo.com/discussion/chat.php?type=spiritual&id=ramadan_2003

Worst than that, you are trying to make this discussion go, once again, in an infinite loop without reaching any goals. This is not the place to preach for your Islam 2.0. Most people here are trying to understand better their Islam 1.0. So please, stop hijacking discussions for your purposes as a respect to other raiootists. Why don?t you ask Adnane to make another discussion where you can talk about your Islam 2.0 with whoever is interested?

Thank you...

·

12:54 pm    December 3, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
80
2. You don't have to believe in Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) and Koran to be a Muslim. Just be a good and compassionate person and you will go to heaven.

The first pillar of ISLAM is to beleive in Allah and his last Messenger mohammed, so how is it that it`s not important to believe in Mohammed(PBUH) ??!???? and then you say PBUH !!!?? do you read what you write ??


3. Islam is simple. After Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) it got very complex and that is why Muslims are confused about what and where Islam stands in the 21st century.

If you are confused , it doesn`t mean all muslims are!!! talk for your self buddy...

·

12:53 pm    December 3, 2003
mus- limoun
79
dear ALI

when i told you to say (lakoum dinoukoum wa lya din) i mean that the islam is obvious and when some people come and start to choose from the religion what they like and reject what is not good for them at that moment we have to tell them that the religion that they choosing is not the islam that Allah choose for us and Mohammed PBUH teach us ( at that moment we have to say lakoum dinoukoum wa lya din , the exemple of that is the groop "oumat al islam or Islam oumma" who saying that they are muslims but they beleive that there is a new prophet and other prophet.

MB, in Islam there is no with me or against me. you have the right to choose what ever you want, but don't do what ever you want and come to say that you doing that in the name of islam even it's not in the Quran and Sunna.

wa salam

·

12:42 pm    December 3, 2003
78
Crazy times...Don't you see what's happening here....

All religions are the SAME. Whatever you might insinuate on Islam automatically should apply on other religion.

Why are we asking these questions now...why was Islam a wonderful religion just few years back.
Weren't your parents' and grand parents' generation more involved with Islam religion than our generation is nowadays.

Doesn't that strike you as a little ODD. Well I don't think Islam changed over time, I think greedy people who want to satisfy a political, finacial, or whatever purpose misuse it giving a bad impression of Islam.

We all know what Islam is all about; then Who truly benefits from destroying the image of Islam all over the world?

Ask questions and be rational!!!!

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12:10 pm    December 3, 2003
Ali
77
75
Dear mus- limoun:

I quote you:

"either accept the islam as Muhammed PBUH teach us or (SO say lakoum dinoukoum wa lya din) but judging the islamic law and saying that it's not for us."

My answer:

"I say lakoum ISLAMOKOM wa lya ISLAMI"

1. Just remember that Muslims existed since Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh).

2. You don't have to believe in Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) and Koran to be a Muslim. Just be a good and compassionate person and you will go to heaven.

3. Islam is simple. After Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) it got very complex and that is why Muslims are confused about what and where Islam stands in the 21st century.

4. By the way, you missed a great debate about my Islam 2.0 at this raioo discussion:

http://www.raioo.com/discussion/chat.php?type=spiritual&id=ramadan_2003

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam


·

11:11 am    December 3, 2003
MB
76
75
lol!!!
Mus-limun
i heard that before!!!
if u are not with us u are against us...:)))) zwina hadi ...and u say that l occident n accepte pas notre facon de voir les chose...i wonder why???!!!:))) duuuh!!

Nego!!!
is that the kind of tolerance we have in islam??????

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10:45 am    December 3, 2003
mus- limoun
75
ALI

that's good , you consider yourself one of Moul-limoun cause muslims before they said that they are muslims, they have to accept the law of Allah and his messenger. (takhtaro ba3daho wa tatroko ba3daho) not the muslim who have this principe . either accept the islam as Muhammed PBUH teach us or (SO say lakoum dinoukoum wa lya din) but judging the islamic law and saying that it's not for us.
PLEASE STOP : tnafe9 nefssek awalan and the others.
2 Please stop : changing the words in the ayat of the Quran if you still have a small atom of iman
wa lah ihdik al muss bla lim.

·

9:45 am    December 3, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
74
so To answer the main Question of the subject,
We the Muslims let go our values and principles, we forgot about how we should be, we went stray from teh Goal that God and his Prophet gave us,(kountoum khayra oummatin oukhrijat linnassi TA2MOUROUNA BILMA3ROUFI WATANHAWNA 3ANI ALMOUNKARI) when the Muslims were applying chari3a, and feared only God and no body else, they were leaders in every thing, sciences, medicines, Agriculture....., and the rest of the world were following them, teh best schools at that time were in Baghdad and Andalusia, Europeans used to send their kids to Muslim schools, The Muslims were tolerante at the time, they were helping Humanity, But now what are the Muslims doing? NADA, we are not a good example to follow, they`ll see our miseries, and they`ll run away, they`ll see our dictators and they`ll run away, they`ll see some of us coming the states and blowing buildings, they`ll hate us, some of them will take that and go search for this religion that causes so much problems nowadays, and when they see the Real Islam they convert, there is still converts of course, but more people are afraid of Muslims....

MB,
You should read about tawbatou malik, it is a very nice story that haoppened in the Era Of Mohammed(PBUH) to understand the reason why applying the chari3a of Allah is better for the Victim and the Sinner.

·

9:42 am    December 3, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
73
What is it you are talking about when you say, when it comes from us, they call it hatered towards the west?? Can you spell it out please?
Pretty much all the american Leaders after september 11 were saying that The Muslim world hates our(american) freedom that`s why they don`t like us
when they see some Muslims applying chari3a in some cases, they call that barbarism, and ignorance, if a country still cuts teh thief`s hand , it i snot applying democracy, if the country is still applying flogging and stoning, it is not democratic...so in this case yes democracy does contradict Islam in some cases, When Allah says liddakari mitlou haddi al2ountayayn, and democracy says no you should share it equally, that contradicts Islam...,
(waman lam ya7koum bima anzala allahou fa oula2ika houmou alkafiroun)
(waman lam ya7koum bima anzala allah, fa2oula2ika houmou addalimoun)
(waman lam ya7koum bima anzala allah fa2oula2ika houmou alfassi9oun)
(fa7koum baynahoum bima anzala allahou wala tattabi3 ahwa2ahoum 3amma ja2aka mina al7a99i, likoullin ja3alna minkoum chir3atan wa minhajan walaw cha2a allahou laja3alakoum oummattan wa7idatan walakin liyablouwakoum fima aatakoum)
So you see in this ayah, That If god wanted to make us all one nation he could have done so, But he created us different nations with different laws(chir3a & minhaj) each one follows his way, and all that is to see what will we do with what he gave us, are we gonna stick to it and apply it , or we will follow their ah2aw(desires) and leave what we have.
·

9:41 am    December 3, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
72
MB,
Wbach a lalla thannay, ana i wouldn`t cut his hand, because i`am not the sultan, it is up to the 7aakem to do that....
Scare people yeah , we should scare people, a simple example is Morocco and the US, you don`t run the Red light in the US cause you are scared they`ll catch you, and you can`t escape from it, in Morocco you don`t care cause you know even if they catch you you can get away by giving 10Dh...., the Result is Morocco is the second country in the world with the number of accidents..., because the laws are not very strict teh punishmenst are not very high.....,
Respect is to respect your self first, did those who cimmited these crimes respect their sleves? no why should we respect them? i7tarim tou7taram.

ya po de haine a alalla, this is not anger this is Rules, if you don`t be strict with people then you`ll lose credibility, then what`s the purpose of having laws at all? if you steal then we should be tolerants, if u kill same thing, then this is a forest not a life..., tolerate every thing isn`t the solution..., if you think applying Allah`s law is Unhuman then, what`s Human ? stealing my money is human? cheating is human? killing is human?? if some one who steals your money can pay you back by an order from the judge then why would he go to stela any ways?? see if you think we should give teh thief or the killer 2nd ,3rd and 4th chance...., then you won`t live in peace cause you`ll be afraid that the guy who stole once or twice or three times will steal from you again,
CIVILISE !!!??? that`s the civilisation that we get from the west...

·

9:32 am    December 3, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
71
MB,
I didn`t say if you kill someone who is kafir you will go to heaven? who teh heck said that? I told you, you assume a lot, you take every thing from Americans pr Europeans, take it from Muslims form Scholars, i`m sure you don`t cause you don`t like them, Most people here when you mention a scholar they get so excited and start attacking those scholars and those who listens to them , they say why should i listen to somebody like me, he has a barain i have one, so we both think the same way, Please next time if you have a question about Islam, or about something you don`t (like) in Islam ask an expert about the reasons, and don`t assume it is Bad because the west says so...
I hear that all the time in CNN and other chanels ,Muslims fight for Allah, and they believe if they kill a non muslim they`ll go to heaven and etc..., do you think that`s really Islam? if you do think so( i think you do since you said it) then you don`t know the real Islam, you are looking at some Muslims and stereotyping....
I didn`t say i will cut my kid`s hand, I SADI I WILL CUT MY SON`S HAND, a kid is just a kid and he doesn`t get punished before he reaches puberty, so be careful on using the words.
The prophet(PBUH) who is the Most merciful on his Ummah, after Allah, said he would cut Fatima`s hand if she steals ( fatia his daughter) so am i better or more merciful than him ?
·

9:11 am    December 3, 2003
Tarik
70
68
by the way, executions in the US are also for fraga, and i think this is how it should be, to bring closure to the family of the vicitms ( i m taking here about murder cases, not adultery)
·

8:44 am    December 3, 2003
Ali
69
67
Dear Negotiator:

What I would like to see as a solution to which "LAW" prevails in the so called "Muslim countries" is a two laws solution (Nigeria is doing it NOW). Example:

1. In Morocco, we will have a Shariaa Law and a Civil Law.

2. As A Moroccan, we will give you an Id card that states wither you want to be judged by "Shariaa Law" or "Civil Law".

3. For example, even though I consider myself a "Muslim", when I apply for a Moroccan National ID, I will request an ID with the "Civil Law" option.

4. This way, if I happen to steal 3 times a "candy" from Wal-Mart, I will be tried under the "Civil Law" scenario (Maybe the judge will tell me to serve 100 hours of community service such as cleaning a public park)

5. Now, for Negotiator, when you apply for a Moroccan National ID, go ahead and select the "Shariaa Law"

6. This way, if I Negotiator happens to steal 3 times a "shoe" from the neighborhood mosque, he will be tried under the "Shariaa Law" scenario (The judge will cut his left hand)

7. Just like the current system in Morocco right now (We have Jewish law and "Muslim law"), can the Islamists in Morocco go along with a dual system like this?

8. Negotiator and others: is this doable? Let's see then who wants to be tried under the "Shariaa Law" and who wants to be tried under the "Civil Law"!

9. I am assuming here that once a Moroccan turns 18 years old, every year he/she gets the constitutionally guaranteed RIGHT to change which option to use: "Shariaa or Civil Law"


Jazakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

·

8:00 am    December 3, 2003
MB
68
67
and Next time don`t say stoning women to Death, cause not only Women get stoned to Death but Men as well......

agree with u it s not only women ...but hey don t u think it s a little unfair as men don t really have to "cheat" on women they could just get a piece of paper saying they are married ( i still call that cheating )...but anyway...don t look at who we are stoning that s not really important ...what s important is what they are doing ..awww imagine stoning someone to death ...plus they actually do it in front of ppl ...how bad is that !!!!!? are they human ?... la mort et la souffrance welat fraja.....

I wonder what you would do if someone steals all your money and left you with nothing when you catch him, t9eltlou machi ghir t9e66a3 lih yeddih....

y a rien de plus beau ke la tolerance...pkoi tte cette haine nego???...c est pas grave someone steals ur money c est mauvais certes..c est pas juste mais il n a pas a le payer de sa main ...il peut aller en prison ...ou avoir un ordre du juge pour k il te pay....tu vois on ne pense pas aux solution pacifiste...on pense tjs a la solution la plus radicale en islam ...y a pas de juste milieu...ppl change ...u know ...if i steal or cheat on my man today that does not mean they have to cut my hand or stone me to death ...people change ...i should have a 2nd, 3rd, 4 th chance....etc in those two cases i would say that divorce and jail are the appropriate punishments...et SURTT ILS SONT CIVILISE

·

7:12 am    December 3, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
67
60
Don`t put words in my Mouth.....
who said i have no problems cutting poor kids`s hands???
aweldi kids are still not considered accountable for any acts they do ...,
7etta kayrechdou 3ad kaywelliw accountable.

and Next time don`t say stoning women to Death, cause not only Women get stoned to Death but Men as well......

Read more about when you should cut a thief`s hand and when you should stone someone to death or flog him/her....
do you think if a man steals bread to eat , in Islam we should cut his Hands?? koun kenti 3aref ghir chouia 3la ddin dialek matgoulch dak lhadra, walakine it looks like you talk from nothing...,

Tolearance,
is stelaing my money tolerance??
I wonder what you would do if someone steals all your money and left you with nothing when you catch him, t9eltlou machi ghir t9e66a3 lih yeddih....

·

6:16 am    December 3, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
66
65
Nego, can you also explain more what you mean by:

"why do you have to please them by eliminating some principles of Islam?"

Especially, explain which principles of Islam you would eliminate by adopting democracy.. This is new to me because I never thought democracy contradicts Islam.

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10:19 pm    December 2, 2003
Tarik
65
46
NEGO SAID:

"Look what america is doing now, they want democracy in the whole Arab world, because they think we are bad, and we won`t succeed if we don`t adopt democracy,
I don`t follow buch or have him as an example but i`m just saying that when it comes from Muslims, they call it hatred towards the west , and when it comes from the west it is , civilization, or modernity, wella man3ref chnou kay3ay6ouliha.
why can`t they adapt to us? why do you have to please them by eliminating some principles of Islam?"

What is it you are talking about when you say, when it comes from us, they call it hatered towards the west?? Can you spell it out please?


thankxx

·

8:48 pm    December 2, 2003
Tarik
64
(cont to ALI)
by the way I M NOT A RELIGIOUS REFERENCE, so I don??t know why are asking me if it??s ok 100% for Muslims to eat at McDonald??.i can only tell you about my opinion and what I know ..be careful when you phrase your questions?? and by the way, I don??t eat at McDonald??s cause it??s crap!

my friends please let??s ELEVATE this conversation.
If you think that meat you are getting here from grocery stores and restaurants is haram, then go to sources that you trust, when you are invited at someone??s house or at a restaurant ask for vegetarian food??ali, you are probably not familiar with good diet practices, you shouldn??t be eating meat everyday.. it??s ok to have some khudra assahbi! To be a decent Muslim requires some effort , if not eating meat at public places is one of them (in your opinion) than you have to live with this..

I hope we can move on to more crucial issues ?? how come I haven??t heard from anyone about problems they faced from people here .. Adnan said he didn??t face any problems, I m glad to hear that .. but those who were less lucky, I??d like to hear from you (this is the topic of this conversation), what is it in this system that you think makes Islam less acceptable .. or is it just muslims who are letting themselves integrate.

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8:48 pm    December 2, 2003
Tarik
63
(cont, to ali)

to answer your question:

what i know is that Christian/ Jews' slaughtered meat is halal

the issue is whether the meat you are getting here is slaughtered or not.. i was afraid that cows might be strangled/electrocuted.. in that case, it's haram, for obvious reasons..from my understanding..
in the past, I talked to a couple of friends who are doing their master's in nutrition science. they said that meat providers here slaughter the animal... so, right now i m not sure whether the animals here are being slaughtered or not. I should do more research ..

I m concerned about the food quality that I get here, I hope I can be more strict about replacing my current diet with an organic, healthy and slaughtered meat diet(whether non-slaughtered meat is haram or not, it??s obviously healthier to eat slaughtered meat)

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8:47 pm    December 2, 2003
Tarik
62
44
Ali,
you really have no control over your temper.. if i didn't reply to you that 's becuase i was busy.. why did you quickly start accusing me of being a hypocrite.. debateing is first of all about having good manners.. ....anyways

·

8:37 pm    December 2, 2003
Tarik
61
44
Ali..
·

7:43 pm    December 2, 2003
Don Quixote
60
Negociator has no problem cutting off both hands of some poor kids,or stoning women to death.Zero tolerance in Islam,that impression one get by reading his extremist interpretaion of the coran. No wonder people are scared of Islam, nobody want to live next an Islamist neighbour.
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3:53 pm    December 2, 2003
mb
59
58
:)))) merci c est gentil de m avoir eclairer a ce sujet :)))) mais....u said

war is just one thing inside Jihad

so it is still part of it... of course we can use it for other meanings but it is still connected to war...killing...fighting....so that s what i meant ...islam calls for jihad....if u fight for islam u go to heaven ...if u kill someone who is kafer ...u go to heaven ...dont u think it s crazy ...wa seb7an lah ....

hahahaha u would cut ur kid s hand if he steals ...ewa a sidi lah ister.....
is this the way u want ppl to live ...scared....what about respect ...what about having some kind of ethics....u get nothing positive by scaring ppl ....7chouma gua3 tgoul hadchi ...

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3:05 pm    December 2, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
58
57
That is Exactly teh way the west explains it, whenever they say Jihad they give Holy war as a translation witch is not true, if you look in Quran you will not find the word SWORD witch is the symbol of war , not even one time, look in the Bible and you will see it many times......

Jihad means struggle,
One man asked teh Prophet(PBUH) once to permit him to go to a ghazwah with him because he wanted to do jihad, the Prophet(PBUH) said are your parents still alive? he said yes, then he told him then go do jihad on them,
so Jihad is not another word for war,
war is just one thing inside Jihad ,
If you give money to charitable organizations you are making jihad BY your money...,

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2:50 pm    December 2, 2003
MB
57
Nego,
mat9ala9ch...yalah a sidi...i don t understand what ppl mean by jihad....could u please explain it to me ?!!!! ( most of the time in the coran jihad is another synomym for war)
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2:17 pm    December 2, 2003
Ali
56
55
continued...

17. Negotiator: since you live in the USA (I think!), don't you think that the closest thing to Islam is actually practiced right here in America.

18. Think about it: when is the last time you had to bribe an immigration officer to give you an official immigration letter?

19. When is the last time you bribed a US police officer after a speeding ticket? In every single "Muslim" country, bribes are a daily occurrence and please do not tell me: ooh well, I had to give a bribe to the police officer in Morocco so that he does not take my driver's license, etc...It's still a bribe and that is against Islam.

20. I would rather live under a Secular regime than under any regime that claims religion as the law (Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hindu, etc...)

21. Religion is a personal thing between you and your maker!

22. Islamists do not know how to rule in a civilized society. They love anarchy. That's how they thrieve!


Jazakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

·

2:15 pm    December 2, 2003
Ali
55
54
continued...

12. A Muslim woman has the right to marry a NON-Muslim person (even if this is a Muslim lesbian)

13. In a Western society, if you miss Friday prayers (because of work, etc...), you can go to a Sunday or Saturday prayers (these are backups for Friday). The Christians have many services on Saturday and Sunday to accommodate their people, let's do the same thing.

14. In a Western society, Move Ramadan to December, so that Ramadan, Hanukah, Christmas, kwanza, etc...are celebrated in the same month. Eid Al-Fitr will then be celebrated on Jan-1 (which is a day off in Western societies). The way Eid-Al-Fitr is celebrated in western societies is very pathetic indeed. Half of the Muslims can't make it when Eid-Al-Fitr falls in the middle of the week. Or better yet, you do not know when Eid-Al-Fitr is because of not seeing the Moon.

15. The above steps are necessary for Muslims to truly adapt to the West. Otherwise, let's pack our bags and go to our "Muslim countries" and do the exact above items and pretend that we are not doing them.

16. I said it before and I repeat it again: Islam came as a simple religion and all of a sudden it became complex (same thing for some orthodox Christian and Jewish religions) religion because Muslims kept appending Hadeeths, fiqh, fatwas, etc...based on 1500 years ago type of mentality

continued...

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2:12 pm    December 2, 2003
Ali
54
46
Dear Negotiator:

Here is a list of concepts that Islam needs to do in the 21st century (even if it contradict Koran and Sunnah):

We need a worldwide FATWA stating CLEARLY that:

01. Wearing Hijab is OPTIONAL in Islam

02. Eating at McDonalds and other NON HALAL meat places is 100% OK in Islam

03. Borrowing money from a bank to buy a PRIMARY house or starting a BUSINESS is 100% OK in Islam

04. CUTTING hands and stoning people who commit "SILLY acts": adultery (two adults), a kid stealing a candy from Wal-Mart, etc...is 100% forbidden in Islam

05. Inheritance for both men and women must be EQUAL

06. Wearing a swimming suit and going to the BEACH is 100% OK in Islam

07. Islam and Politics MUST never mix: this means it's 100% OK for Muslims to live in a Secular society with modern civil laws (The mosques are open for business, go if you want, no body will stop you and nobody will harass you, and no body will cut your hand)

08. Guys and Lesbians have the right to live with each other (it's their business and their alone)

09. Two consenting adults have the right to be intimate with each other even if they are not married (it's their business, not yours or mine)

10. Every Muslim country MUST have a council of representatives that has 50% males and 50% females. If the president is male, the vice president must be female (and vice-versa)

11. A Christian, Jew, Hindu, Buddhist, Atheist, etc are just as good as Muslims

continued...

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2:11 pm    December 2, 2003
Ali
53
46
Dear Negotiator:

You have used the following words in your posting about Islam:

1. Stoning
2. Cutting hands
3. Punishment
4. Cutting second hand
5. Others will be scared
6. Islam Rules are the Rules
7. Jihad

Who the hell wants to belong to this religion of yours? You do not seem to get it? you are scaring the hell out of potential converts!

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

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2:03 pm    December 2, 2003
Ali
52
45
Dear Negotiator:

I qoute you:

"Man you say so much without saying any thing, the question you asked , we answered to it way before you asked it , if you pay attention to what we write you wouldn`t still be asking the same question for the 10th time...."

My answer:

1. You did not answer it with yes or no (you talked about veggies and fish, I am talking about MEAT)

2. There is a reason why people do not trust Islamists. They never answer simple question (they thrieve when things are not 100% clear, loop holes!!!)

3. So, here is the question again (for the record):

"IS IT 100% OK for a MUSLIM to EAT A BIG MAC AT McDonalds anytime he/she wants? YES or NO?"


Jazakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

·

1:28 pm    December 2, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
51
TO ALMAJHOUL,
Rules are to be broken, and Punishments are for those who brake the rules........

If you do some researches you`ll see that Muslims when they enforced Jezyah on non Muslims it is because they don`t pay zakat, so in Other words yla bghiti tefham, either you pay zakah or jezyah, it is teh same, here in America or In Europe we pay Taxes, just like americans, what is the difference??!!!
No body said that we have to fight every body who is not Muslim...,
If Islam Treated jews and christians as second Class people, than why the prophet(PBUH) had a Jew neighbour?

Next time don`t let your hatred towards Muslims or Islmaists cover your eyes.....

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1:02 pm    December 2, 2003
Student
50
This are some verses from the Koran, I hope that some of you find some answers and guidence to this matter and may allah guide us to right path.
[4.144] O you who believe! do not take the unbelievers for friends rather than the believers; do you desire that you should give to Allah a manifest proof against yourselves?
[3.175] It is only the Shaitan that causes you to fear from his friends, but do not fear them, and fear Me if you are believers.

[5.54] O you who believe! whoever from among you turns back from his religion, then Allah will bring a people, He shall love them and they shall love Him, lowly before the believers, mighty against the unbelievers, they shall strive hard in Allah's way and shall not fear the censure of any censurer; this is Allah's Face, He gives it to whom He pleases, and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing.

[5.57] O you who believe! do not take for guardians those who take your religion for a mockery and a joke, from among those who were given the Book before you and the unbelievers; and be careful of (your duty to) Allah if you are believers.
2.8] And there are some people who say: We believe in Allah and the last day; and they are not at all believers.

Wa allah yahdina ajma3ain.

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12:44 pm    December 2, 2003
Anonynous
49
Rules are made to be broken
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12:43 pm    December 2, 2003
Anonynous
48
Rules are made to be borken,especially stupid rules contained in ancient texts,whether they're in the coran,bible,or torah
·

12:34 pm    December 2, 2003
Anonynous
47
Muslims like Nego are the biggest are the biggest hypocrites ,the hate everything about america except the $$$$ of course.If we follow the Koran 100% like you suggest we'll have a permanent war against everybody who dosen't follow Islam.Is this a religion of peace??
"oh yo who believe, don't take non-believers (jews&christians) as friend or allies". No wonder muslims are having a hard time co-existing with others.Muslims tolerated jews and christians as a second class citizen ,but they had to pay a special tax called "jezya".Just wonder how would you feel if the US and other western governments imposed exta tax on muslims only.
·

12:27 pm    December 2, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
46
MB,
Look what america is doing now, they want democracy in the whole Arab world, because they think we are bad, and we won`t succeed if we don`t adopt democracy,
I don`t follow buch or have him as an example but i`m just saying that when it comes from Muslims, they call it hatred towards the west , and when it comes from the west it is , civilization, or modernity, wella man3ref chnou kay3ay6ouliha.
why can`t they adapt to us? why do you have to please them by eliminating some principles of Islam?

If you think stoning a man to death because he cheated in his wife is unfair, than what is fair for you? to let him do that?
The Goal from that punishment is to prevent others from doing so, you sacrifice one or two to scare others ,

I`d rather cut my son`s hand because he stole than to let him do that again, if you prison him you have to feed him etc, and then he gets out and do the same thing.
if you cut his hand, and he does steal again , you cut his other hand, then he can`t steal again, others will be scared of getting their hands riped off.
I`d rather cut a thief`s hand and feed him than to let him steal from otther people and then have to feed those that he stole from, witch is better? to feed one or a lot ?

One more thing,
Islam is Islam, the Rules are the Rules, strict thing are there to be there until the here after, you can`t change it, you like that way tabarakka Allah you don`t want it , you`re free , no body forces you to do any thing you don`t like...

what about Jihad? you talk like Jihad is only a War, i think you lack the definition of Jihad...

·

12:11 pm    December 2, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
45
Man you say so much without saying any thing, the question you asked , we answered to it way before you asked it , if you pay attention to what we write you wouldn`t still be asking the same question for the 10th time....

·

11:33 am    December 2, 2003
Ali
44
43
continued...

10. Finally, I asked the question many times and no body in this forum has answered: IS IT 100% OK for a MUSLIM to EAT A BIG MAC AT McDonalds anytime he/she wants? YES or NO?

11. I am still waiting for an answer on item 10 above, from Negotiator, Tarik, and others. They are unable to say a simple yes or no. This is the kind of hypocrisy that will never clear the issue of Halal/Haram meat so that we can move to other issues to help Muslims adapt to their new HOME: America

12. As a side note:, Last summer, I spent some time in Montreal, Canada, and I went to a Mosque for Friday prayers. I was shocked at how divided the Muslims are in Montreal. We ended up going to a Mosque near this open fruits and vegetables market, Jean Talon Bld (a lot of Moroccans work there).

13. The first thing I noticed is that the Moroccans in Montreal seem to have their own mosque. The Algerians and Tunisians their own mosques!. The Indo-Pak groups have their own mosques, etc..

14. The second thing that shocked me is the Imam's sermon: The topic was about Halal/Haram meat and how the Italians control the meat distribution in Montreal. Basically, the Muslims in Montreal are complaining that some "HALAL butchers" are buying their meat from NON HALAL places and selling it as HALAL.

15. As you can see, this Halal/Haram issue is well and alive. And yes, it's causing a lot of socializing setbacks for Muslims

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

·

11:28 am    December 2, 2003
Ali
43
38
Dear adnane/Negotiator:

1. I consider myself a very practical person in terms of Islam as a religion

2. I am actually very surprised that a lot of readers in this forum are unaware (or maybe in denial) of this Halal/Haram meat dilemma and how it is affecting socialization between Christians and Muslims in America.

3. I actually had the opportunity to volunteer at many Muslim events (school level, fund raising level, and even trying to organize a Moroccan association)

4. So I do have some PRACTICAL issues I had to deal with in mobilizing Muslims in order to interact with Christian Americans

5. Obviously, 90% of this contact involves FOOD (meat) and the problem starts right there.

6. The majority of Muslims, at least 75%, just refuse to come to McDonald's for a fun day with the "BLOND" kids or show up to an event, such as the 4th of July cookout, with BEEF burgers and hotdogs bought from Kroger or Meijer or Super Wal-Mart, and DO NOT EAT

7. These actions are very embarrassing. These people cite Koran verses (Haram meat) as the reason why they do not want to participate (How can you dispute that?).

8. You may say that it is a Problem with these type of "hard core Muslims" not Islam, but the problem is that they are citing Koran verses (Wa innama horrem Alaikomo Addama, wa lahma alkhenzeer, etc...)

9. The topic of this discussion is adapting Islam to a different environment. If it's impossible to celebrate the 4th of July with a cookout with fellow American Christians, Muslims have a long long hard road ahead of them, to integrate with the West (Yep! this means something has to change!)

continued...

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11:04 am    December 2, 2003
mb
42
41
wa rah bush 7mar ou mkelekh ....il est pas une referrence ...tu le crtikes mais tu penses au fait comme lui ...the good vs the bad....awwww je vais pas suivre un con juste car c est le president des states....wa sahbi 3yekti....
stoning them to death?!!!!! awah and u think they deserve to have that kind of end....are we animals???? even the animal dont deserve this punishment msaken....dont give that b.s of religion is fair...cause it is not....how can u live without a hand ...?? they just push u to steal again cause u can t get a job...aw b jouj idin ou mala9yinch un job ....

... Islam (tolerant and peaceful)

well it is not cause a 100% peaceful and tolerant ...a religion that calls for jihad and says that the other religions will all end up in hell is not tolerant in my opinion.....

·

9:17 am    December 2, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
41
who do u mean by they??....who is fighting u dude???? aw ...are u okay ??? that s scary!!! the good vs the bad...chill out!!!

Isn`t that how Buch called it, either you are with us or against us, so if you don`t agree with what america says you are against them and will be fought..., i`m chilled , if i wasn`t i wouldn`t be here.

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9:16 am    December 2, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
40
MB,
waw...c est la meilleure du top 50...Nego invente sa propre religion....tbarek lah ....

wachtti a MB rja3na 3awtani l sarcasm ?!!?? did you Read well what i said ? i didn`t invent anything ( at least not me who interprets the Quran the way i want).

awwww...dont put words in my mouth a sidi...i never said that we had to change our habits or religion, and i am not talking about changing our religion to please them but to please ourselves first, to feel like humans not animals who get 100 beaten for one little mistake ...degoutante ces lois on dirait k on pas de coeur...they will leave us ??? malhoum chadina ???!!!!!

Well you said Islam gives a Bad image to the west and other non muslims because they see the punishments in Islam, so in a way you don`t want the Islmaic law to be applied so those people won`t see that our law is barbare, that`s how you called it, these prostitutes we see in teh streets that give sex for money and those who go to them you think these are not animals??? only Animals live a life like that with no rules no punichments.., a Human is some one who respects the law , The law of Islam is clear, and actually it is not just Flogging those who coomits adultry, flogging is to those who commits fornication, but Adultry is stoning TO DEATH, and i don`t call that a mistake, you saw what happen to the singer Dhikra, her husband killed her just because he thought she is cheating on him, Islam prevents that from happening, you cannot punish someone if you don`t have 4 witnesses (adultry or fornication) if you fail to bring the witnesses than it is you who will be folgged 80 times.

·

9:14 am    December 2, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
39
3. As I posted before, I know people personally who refuse to eat at a 4th of July party, because the humbergers served were considered Haram. I was embarassed at what they did. But I will not force them to eat

At least these guys stood to what they believe in(you didn`t),You should be embarassed by saying you are a Muslim.....
I know christians that refuse to play a soccer Game on sunday because it`s against their religion, Jews don`t work on saturday and most of them don`t eat meat if it is not slaughtered on their way, People stand up to their believes , but some muslims are afraid of even saying they are Muslims..., I respect taht Jew and christian and muchrik more than i Respect a Muslim who is embarassed by what his fellow Muslims do.

4. I gave the food example, because that is the basis of 90% of socializing in America.

You make me laugh every time you bring some numbers like this, what did you base your number on ??? if i understand well this means that 90% of the day you spend it eating?!!!?? i think people who eats a lot wouldn`t spend more than 4 hours a day eating in total ....say something logic

".... Bismilah rahman rahim: walan yarda 3anka al MUSLIMOUN Hatta tatabi3a milatahoum) sada9a laho l3adim"
Gha goulouli wach chi wa7ed lli katewssal beeh l7a09arah tal had daraja annahou yekteb chi 7aja b issm allah men 3andou b7al hakka yessta7e9 yehdar m3ah bnadem?

·

8:31 am    December 2, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
38
34
Ali, from reading many of your posts in this discussion and others, I see that you are rebelling against the wrong image of Islam. But somehow, I sense that you try to make it look like this image of Islam is the original image, and your intention is to change it. You haven't said a single time that it is the people who need to change their understanding of the original pure image of Islam to restore at least some of that into today.

I am afraid Ali to say that you are infiltrating a propaganda against Islam and Muslims in this web site. Your style of writing developped into an attempt to inculate stereotypes into the readers of this web site, be it Muslims or non-muslims.

If you are a Muslim Ali, I understand your rebellion against the wrong image of Islam, against the inconsistency of its practice like I mentioned before, but I believe you are making too wrong of a turn by not making the distinction that this wrong image of Islam is due to the wrong understanding of it rather than Islam itself. You seem to push for the latter all along. That is why people reply grudgingly to you in this web site. I invite you to make the distinction I described, or to correct me if I am wrong.

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8:04 am    December 2, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
37
33
adil, je pense que l'image de l'Islam est flou et brumeuse de nos jours due a la grande inconsistance de l'application de cette religion au niveau individuel, familial, social et d'un pays a l'autre. Cette inconsistance affecte l'image de l'Islam non seulement dans les yeux d'un non-musulman, mais aussi d'un musulman. Par consequence, le musulman ne cesse d'appliquer son Islam vague tant que l'image et l'interpretation est vague.

Il y a un grand besoin d'une revolution spirituelle au fond des musulmans pour calibrer la pratique d'un Islam qui satisfaira le bon Dieu, son prophete, les individus, les familles, les societes, le gouvernement, la justice, l'economie, et plus important qui respectera les autres societes non-musulmanes qui ont interets a nous au meme degree, ou plus, qu'on a interet a eux.

On est bien loin de cela pour le moment, mais le fait qu'on est en train de parler de telle vision donne de l'espoir.

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8:03 am    December 2, 2003
nina
36
why are we suddenly talking about food, therefore reducing a religion such as Islam (tolerant and peaceful) to a dietary rules about what to eat and what not to eat. let's focus more on the spiritual message of Islam and elevate the debate on why Islam has such a hard time in the West these days. Our attitude as muslims should make our friends (the non-muslims)respect us and eventually respect the message of Allah.
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7:51 am    December 2, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
35
32
Whenever I read an anonymous post like that the first thing I say to myself is the following:

"Bissmillahi Ra7mani Ra7im, Qoul A3oudou Birabbi Lfalaq, Min Sharri ma khalaq, wa min sharri ghassiqin idha waqab, wa min sharri Naffathati Fil 3ouqad, Wa Min Sharri 7assidin idha 7assad".

Sadaqa Lahou L3adim.

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5:47 am    December 2, 2003
Ali
34
29
Dear Tarki:

1. As usual, I am asking a very simple question: Is it 100% OK in Islam to eat a Big Mac at McDonalds (NOT veggies. NOT Fish)?

2. Stop avoiding the question and answer it directly: YES or NO

3. This Halal and Haram meat issue is causing some serious socializing issues. Example: a simple task of organizing a meeting at Burger King for a Muslim group to talk about school issues for their kids, ends up being a nightmare.

4. You try to explain that it's OK to eat at McDonald's and then Koran verses start flying left and right (Wa innama horrima Alaikomo addama wa lahma al khenzeer.....)

5. Now, in one of my postings, I asked Negotiator for the web site location where the fatwa he talked about can explain to these Muslims that it's OK to eat at McDonalds (MEAT NOT FISH or VEGGIES, remember that ALL HAPPY MEALS at McDonald's are either chicken or burgers)

6. PLEASE, stop changing the topic from MEAT to Fish or veggies. YOU are dodging the REAL question!

7. Tarik and Negotiator: Do you eat non HALAL MEAT at McDonalds? YES or NO?


Jazakomo Allaho Khairan Wa ssalam

·

4:37 am    December 2, 2003
adil
33
Salam ? tous!
je suis surpris de voir la discussion prendre ce chemin. Le probleme n'est pas su tout de manger la viande halal ou pas. ceci est un choix personnel et si on est convaincu par un choix le probleme est fini.
ce que je voulais dire c'est par exemple quelques lois de la sharia qui sont difficiles ? justifier ( lapidation de la femme en cas d'adult?re, couper les mains de voleurs, polygamie, droit de frapper sa femme, voile). Et tout cel? en plus du fait que l'Islam n'a pas l'image d'une religion de paix et de tol?rence. Qu'on on appelle au jihad au moindre probl?me politique, et qu'on justifie les attentats contre les civiles (en Israel ou au Maroc ou ailleurs c'est pareil) par la religion. Ca influe son image.
Je sais bien que lorsqu'on vit sa religion personnellement on la vit tr?s bien meme en Occident. Mais nous somme tous responsables de l'Image de notre religion et on se doit de parler et de se justifier pour ne pas laisser les integristes et les imames parler ? notre place.
C'est bien parce qu'on vit ? l'ext?rieur de notre pays et de notre soci?t? qu'on peut apporter un regard critique sur ces questions. parce que ceux qui vivent au Maroc ou ailleur dans un pays "musulman" ne percoivent pas ce que nous nous voyons.
·

4:34 am    December 2, 2003
To Adnane
32
31
I know what kind of Muslim you are thru your postings, comments and social behavior. YES, that kind of Muslims IS respected in America... but not for long. Lies never last.
·

10:42 pm    December 1, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
31
30
I personally have found no problems so far in America (Boston) by being a Muslim. I'm respected at my work place for the work and effort I do, greeted on my religious holidays, asked about my religion and culture for the sake of knowledge and learning, and comforted regarding world events that touch Arabs and Muslims. I will never forget an American familly who offered me their support, shelter and help if I ever find problems in the US after 9/11
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10:16 pm    December 1, 2003
Tarik
30
no one has said anything yet about why the west doesn't want us.. it seems that you guys have mentioned is why WE are not letting our self be integrated (all the talk about halal/haram food, loans..it's us who are creating these obstacles of integration,,,the system here was not created in a way that would be against the islam teachings)
i have been here for almost 6 years.. and i never had a problem beiong a muslim ,, not that i had my identity or pretend infront of peopel like nothing contradicts islam..
so i'd liek you guys to tell me where have you met with major problems .. and hopefully you'll be fair ( i mean check whether the fact that you are a muslim is really what created the problem, don't quickly jump into that conclusion)..
peace
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9:54 pm    December 1, 2003
tarik
29
26
Dear ALI,

man you made from food a HUGE problem.. for those who are strict about not eat non-halal meat, it's not the end of the world,

when you are invited at somebody's home or in a restaurant, or at some party, you ask for vegeterian meals..

halal is not the only food ristrcitions that person might have, some people are dibetics, or have stomach problems which would restrict them from having alot more than meat..

people are very understanding about that, if they are not , than u shouldn;t be socializing with them in the first place.. most probably they are jerks (in many other aspects)

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9:08 pm    December 1, 2003
Ali
28
21
Dear Nmirid:

About changing the Islamic religion, you missed a Great debate last ramadan. Check it out at the folowwing RAIOO discussion:

http://www.raioo.com/discussion/chat.php?type=spiritual&id=ramadan_2003


Jazakomo Allaho Khairan Wa ssalam reply

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9:01 pm    December 1, 2003
Ali
27
23
Dear Nmirid:

I qoute you:

".... Bismilah ra7man ra7im, (walan tarda 3anka al yahoudo wa nassara 7ata tatabi3a milatahoum) sada9a laho l3adim"

1. Now look at it the other way around. DO YOU THINK THAT MUSLIMS ACCEPT 100% the Christians and the Jews?

2. Is a good and decent Christian person going to heaven?

3. Is a good and decent Jewish person going to heaven?

4. If your answer is yes to 2 and 3 above, then a Muslim is just as good as a Christian and Jew.

5. This means it does not matter what religion you are, Allah will take you to heaven

6. So is Islam relevant then?

7. Think about this:

".... Bismilah rahman rahim: walan yarda 3anka al MUSLIMOUN Hatta tatabi3a milatahoum) sada9a laho l3adim"


Jazakomo Allaho Khairan Wa ssalam

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8:50 pm    December 1, 2003
Ali
26
24
Dear Sanita

1. We are talking about how to ease the adaptation of Muslims in America and the West.

2. I am giving you some PRACTICAL social events (Food is served in these events, MEAT is part of the deal)

3. As I posted before, I know people personally who refuse to eat at a 4th of July party, because the humbergers served were considered Haram. I was embarassed at what they did. But I will not force them to eat

4. I gave the food example, because that is the basis of 90% of socializing in America.

5. I did visit many western nations (including Canada) and the Halal meat problem is well and alive.

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan Wa ssalam

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8:43 pm    December 1, 2003
Ali
25
19
Dear Negotiator:

1. First of all. Salam my brother in Islam. It?s good to hear from you again

2. If I understand your posting, you are saying that it?s 100% OK for a Muslim person to eat at McDonald?s, KFC, Burger King Etc?even if the meat (chicken, beef, and lamb) is not slaughtered in a Muslim way.

3. Let?s say, the city where we live in the USA has maybe about 5 places where restaurants with Halal meat exit (They are usually about 10 to 15 minutes drive). It?s still OK to buy a Big Mac from McDonalds and super size it too (let?s say that you need to eat lunch and dinner everyday, and you do not want to eat Fish and veggies EVERYDAY).

4. For the benefit of the readers, can you please provide a url that supports this claim (The fatwa you mentioned in your posting)

5. The reason why I need this url is because I know of no less than 20 Muslims who refuse to eat non Halal meat as described in my previous posting (I need some good references to help me explain to them this issue).

6. Somebody in this forum asked me who these Muslims are and how do I know them: Well, they are from Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Pakistan, Palestine, Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Libya, Iraq, Saudia, and Kuwait. These are just the countries that I personally have friends that I interact with very frequently.

7. How do I know these guys/families: I used to volunteer at an Islamic school. These people refuse to even work at McDonald?s or pizza hut for just a weekend in order to donate the money to the school (PTO). The reason they refuse: These places offer Haram meat. These places sell pork.

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

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6:58 pm    December 1, 2003
Sanita
24
ALI, u made it sound like all we care about is MEAT and FOOD! and IF HALAM meat is not SERVED then WE must stay home!
People CONNECT on some many different LEVELS ...machi ghir el 9ass
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5:19 pm    December 1, 2003
Nmirid
23
yeah I forgot one more thing . "Pourquoi Islam a du mal ? se vendre dans l'occident?" la reponse a cette question est dans ce verset du qu'ran. Bismilah ra7man ra7im, (walan tarda 3anka al yahoudo wa nassara 7ata tatabi3a milatahoum) sada9a laho l3adim
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5:03 pm    December 1, 2003
MB
22
Turkey is not 7aram!!!??? and still you can eat it even if it`s not slaughtered in an islamic way .

waw...c est la meilleure du top 50...Nego invente sa propre religion....tbarek lah ....

You think if we change our laws, they (non muslims) will levae us ? you say Yes, but i say as Allah said ( walan tarda 3anka alyahoudou wala annassara 7atta tattabi3a millatahoum

awwww...dont put words in my mouth a sidi...i never said that we had to change our habits or religion, and i am not talking about changing our religion to please them but to please ourselves first, to feel like humans not animals who get 100 beaten for one little mistake ...degoutante ces lois on dirait k on pas de coeur...they will leave us ??? malhoum chadina ???!!!!!

Why can`t they respect us and live with us as We are?

who do u mean by they??....who is fighting u dude???? aw ...are u okay ??? that s scary!!! the good vs the bad...chill out!!!

Ali,
i don t know if the kind of ppl u are talking about really exist...but it s not a big deal they could just stay in their countries and follow religion or become vegetarian....

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5:02 pm    December 1, 2003
Nmirid
21
Ali..or should I call you shikh Ali lol ya akhi what part of the US do u live in??? I live in the US and I don't see what u saw. are you sure you were talking about American culture? since when Americans invite each other to share meals? who told u Asians are doing better than muslims in this country..obviously u have never met palestinians and lebanese who owns half of small businesses in every town. and what does food has to do with it? r u saying that if tomorrow we start eating pork and drinking alcohol, our lives will improve? Dude I don't know where did u come up with this great scientific analysis !?!??!?
My answer to the topic is that Islam is not the reason why we "failed"..islam has never been a major obstacle for any of us...and no we don't have to change our religious values and cultures to adapt with our new lives. Do u see Americans and Europeans wear Hijab or fast ramadan, or go to Mosques when they come to our countries? for your knowledge Ali, the Jews Lobby controls the rest of the world and not only the US...they did it bc they were smart/tricky not bc someone gave it to them as a Xmas gift. Go make some researches and when u find out how did jews got to where they are now..and if u r able to do the same, then i guarantie you will get to where they are ;)
If u r a real Muslim, sir tweda ou seli lik jouj rek3at liwajhi lah ou goul ya rebi tesme7 liya 3ela dakeshi li ktebt (trying to change islam values ad basics, who are you to allow yourself and dare to talk about such a change)
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2:59 pm    December 1, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
20
MB,
Saudia Arabia don`t apply the Islamic law as it is, there is no Kingdom in the Islamic law, Imarat almou2minin is not a heritage, it should be by shuraa(elections), Plus they don`t give zakat for the petrol they have(20%)..., they still have slaves...., a lot of non Islamic things.
La loi Islamik n`est po trop rigide, if cutting Thief hands, or Flog those who make adultry will give a bad Image to othe rnon Muslims, well than be it, why do we have to change to please others??? that`s our Religion and we don`t adopt it to please Others , but to please Allah, If they follow their Religions the way it was revealed to them i`m sure they would still cut hands of the thief(they used to do it) they would still KILL those who make adultry ......,
You think if we change our laws, they (non muslims) will levae us ? you say Yes, but i say as Allah said ( walan tarda 3anka alyahoudou wala annassara 7atta tattabi3a millatahoum)

Why can`t they respect us and leave with us as We are? why it`s us who have to change? because they are stronger than us.., But does that give us a reason to fear them? or a reason to work harder and become stronger than them?

·

2:59 pm    December 1, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
19
19. The reason why the Jews, Hindus, and Chinese are doing 100% much better than the Muslims in America, is because they adapted themselves to the American lifestyle by letting go of some religious "commands" in favor of integration in their new land and environment.

Hindous and chinese doing 100% much better!!!??? i`m not sure this is correct...

20. On the other hand, you have the Muslims in the west who are still trying to fill a "one litter bottle with five litters of liquid". It does not fit! And, "if it does not fit, you must acquit".

Now you are judging all Muslims for being Stupid, Ignorants!!!!!

21. Mortgage: which is a loan from a bank to buy a house. A lot of Muslims in America are still defining this as HARAM.

As i told you before search before you talk, cause you`re showing taht you are trying to give a false image about Islam, read a little bit about this issue and you`ll see that you are worng.

Say Bissmillah and EAT...,
Islam is din youssr and not 3oussr, even Porc you can eat it if you have nothing else but it, and you are afraid of dying...

·

2:57 pm    December 1, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
18
15. This means that Muslims will never be able to know their American neighbors, friends, and co-workers. And in turn, the idea that Muslims are snobs and weird will continue to dominate.

don`t think that the only way to know people is by eating with them?? aww wach radi takoul wella t3areff 3lihoum?

16. If I were a person with "fatwa" powers: I will say that eating American beef, lamb, and chicken is Halal when you are in a western society.

he he he, koun 3awelnna 3leek koun tssenina tal 2004 3ad te36ina had l fatwa, nass 36awha hadi sineen...

17. The benefits are enormous. Muslims will be able to be in contact with their Muslim neighbors, friends, and co-workers. These Americans will be able to talk and get to know their Muslim brethrens.

If so why do we see a lot of new converts to Islam? if they don`t know us...

18. Also, I know that a lot of Muslims suffer in silence from the above dilemmas. They feel this guilty conscience 24/7 when they go to McDonald's and buy a chicken nugget happy meal for their kids. They also suffer from an identity crisis. Where are the people with "Ijtihad" when you need them?

The people of Ijtihad are there where are you?? if you search you`ll find, don`t wait for things to come to you...

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2:56 pm    December 1, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
17
01. As a Muslim, you are not supposed to eat ALL MEAT that is HARAM (chicken, lamb, beef).

This is wrong....., You based all you judgment on this statement, witch is not true, it is allowed to Muslims to eat chicken , lamb, Beef, according to a fatwa that was released way Back....,we can eat from the jews`s food, they slaughter the same way we do(even better),

02. The problem in living in a western society is that 99% of the meat available is considered HARAM.

99% ??? i wonder where you got this number? as we know that there are muslims who own restaurants and use 7alal meats, and there are firms owned by muslims that provide 7alla Meat,

03. This means you can't eat at McDonald's, Burger King, KFC Chicken, etc...

You can if it`s not Pork...

04. In practice, this means that you are not going to be able to socialize with your co-workers when there is an event that is work related (example, going to lunch as a group)

You can, even if you are a die-hard muslim you can eat something veggie!!!duuuh

05. In the USA and Canada, there's a Holiday called Thanksgiving, Americans cook a Turkey (considered HARAM meat). A Muslim is not supposed to accept an invitation from an American neighbor to celebrate Thanksgiving.

Turkey is not 7aram!!!??? and still you can eat it even if it`s not slaughtered in an islamic way .

14. And what you have is a social nightmare for Muslims living in the West.

Never heard of any body calling living in the west a Nightmare, because they can`t eat some things...or drink somethings...

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1:28 pm    December 1, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
16
I personally think beef, lamb, chicken, turkey beef is all good to eat, (aka Halal) in America. They get slaughtered by the thousands, animal right groups have watchdogs to make sure animals are treated with leniency before getting slaughtered, which is the main purpose of dealing with animals in Islam. More than that, before you eat it, say Bissmillah in your heart and probably that will satisfy your faith.

However, Ali, I think you're exagerrating a little bit how Muslims live in the west. Are you coming from a few particular experiences? If they all live like you advertise, then sure they will give the impression of being picky, impractical and aloof. I think it is wrong to refuse an invitation from an American familly to thanksgiving, chrismas etc One should go, and make sure you just mention, beforehand, you don't eat porc and don't drink alcohol. Americans are very sensitive to these things and they will arrange for it and be extra happy to accomodate you.

For all those who behave as Ali observed, imagine if you invite an American for dinner in Ramadan, and he refuses because you are not serving wine... how would you feel about him? certainly you won't offer him wine, but if he insists you might accomodate and suggest he brings his own bottle. Even that is probably not allowed because you'd be providing the glass bla bla. But imagine if you refuse to go to his thanksgiving, but he accomodates you and allows you to bring your own Halal Turkey :) I think in that case you better not go at once! it is ridiculous and impolite and you'd be giving a bad impression of yourself, and maybe Islam.. I say maybe because the American could know Islam better than you do :) or know other Muslims who behaved better than you did.

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1:21 pm    December 1, 2003
maghribi
15
ali the moroccan guy who wanna make the Islam as he wants (talking about Haram and Halal) i'm pretty sure, he just know that but doesn't practice that . he talks about giving Fatwa and seperating the dine and the politics . do you know sir that Mohammed salallahou alaihi wa ssalam was practing the religion and the politics and the dine in the same time. don't give your thought as a solution because it's not. obviously you like to eat in Mcdonalds (if you like to eat their at that point go their nobody stops you eat fish eat even the meat (beef, chicken)if you care about halal and haram just say Bissmillah, but there is a condition , if there is no muslim restaurant and you find only Mc donolad's) it's not my Fatwa (it's a fatwa of an imam (Al Farouk Mosque) in New york wa allahou aalam


wa sallamou alaikoum

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9:11 am    December 1, 2003
Ali
14
13
continued...

20. On the other hand, you have the Muslims in the west who are still trying to fill a "one litter bottle with five litters of liquid". It does not fit! And, "if it does not fit, you must acquit".

21. Mortgage: which is a loan from a bank to buy a house. A lot of Muslims in America are still defining this as HARAM.

22. This means, the majority of Muslims prefere to rent than buy a house.

23. renting, means you do not own. This also means you will not be able to borrow from a bank to start a business. This means that Muslims in the west are not economically strong.

24. This also means Muslims in the west do not have a strong lobby power (the Jewish lobby in America is the most powerfull lobby in America, because of money and financing of political candidates)

25. Some "Muslims", in their infinite wisdoms, are getting screwed by this "lease to own scheems".

26. Basically, to buy a $100K house with a mortgage, it will cost you about $250K with a bank loan over 30 years.

27. And , to "lease to own" a $100K house, it will cost you MORE than $250K over 30 years.


Jazakomo Allaho Khairan wa ssalam

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8:52 am    December 1, 2003
Ali
13
12
continued...

11. 4th of July is the time for great cookouts in America. The American neighbors will invite you for a meal. Again, a Muslim can't go to these events.

12. If you have kids at school: they need to eat lunch in there. The meat is NOT HALAL. Again it's a problem for a Muslim.

13. Add 30 days of Ramadan to the above Mix.

14. And what you have is a social nightmare for Muslims living in the West.

15. This means that Muslims will never be able to know their American neighbors, friends, and co-workers. And in turn, the idea that Muslims are snobs and weird will continue to dominate.

16. If I were a person with "fatwa" powers: I will say that eating American beef, lamb, and chicken is Halal when you are in a western society.

17. The benefits are enormous. Muslims will be able to be in contact with their Muslim neighbors, friends, and co-workers. These Americans will be able to talk and get to know their Muslim brethrens.

18. Also, I know that a lot of Muslims suffer in silence from the above dilemmas. They feel this guilty conscience 24/7 when they go to McDonald's and buy a chicken nugget happy meal for their kids. They also suffer from an identity crisis. Where are the people with "Ijtihad" when you need them?

19. The reason why the Jews, Hindus, and Chinese are doing 100% much better than the Muslims in America, is because they adapted themselves to the American lifestyle by letting go of some religious "commands" in favor of integration in their new land and environment.

continued...

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8:51 am    December 1, 2003
Ali
12
11
Dear adil:

Here's a simple example of west vs. Islam problem:

01. As a Muslim, you are not supposed to eat ALL MEAT that is HARAM (chicken, lamb, beef).

02. The problem in living in a western society is that 99% of the meat available is considered HARAM.

03. This means you can't eat at McDonald's, Burger King, KFC Chicken, etc...

04. In practice, this means that you are not going to be able to socialize with your co-workers when there is an event that is work related (example, going to lunch as a group)

05. In the USA and Canada, there's a Holiday called Thanksgiving, Americans cook a Turkey (considered HARAM meat). A Muslim is not supposed to accept an invitation from an American neighbor to celebrate Thanksgiving.

06. Christmas is another Holiday where a lot of Americans cook lamb or beef and invite others to join them. Again, a Muslim is not supposed to accept such invitations

07. American weddings are another source of socializing in America. There is food served and of course "Wine, alcoholic beverage". Again, a Muslim is not supposed to be in these events.

08. Birthday parties for kids. Usually, Americans celebrate these events with the kids at McDonald's (happy meals). Again, as a Muslim, you are not supposed to send your kids to these events

09. Baby showers: when your American neighbor is having a baby. There's meat food available, dancing, etc...Again as a Muslim, you are not supposed to go to these events.

10. Summer picnics: where a lot of beef hamburgers, soda, chips are served, music, dancing, etc.... Again, a Muslim can't go to these events.


continued...

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1:03 am    December 1, 2003
adil
11
Ce que j'aimerais savoir c'est : est-ce qu'il est possible de vivre pleinement la religion islamique tout en vivant dans un pays laique ou la loi est au de?us de la religion?
Il y a une grande diff?rence ? mon avis entre l'essence m?me de la religion et tous les enseignements qui nous ont ?t? transmis. je pense qu'il faut trouver o? a commenc? l' "ijtihad" et envisager , pourquoi pas, de le remettre en cause.
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2:58 pm    November 30, 2003
Ali
10
8
Dear abidou:

1. The first problem with Muslims is that they want to mix Islam with politics.

2. Islam is ?GOOD?. Politics is ?BAD?. When you mix the two together, Islam becomes half as good or half as bad ( (GOOD + BAD)/2)

3. The Muslims worldwide will be served much better if they get it through their heads that there must be a civil law that must be the law of the land.

4. Civil law is the only way for any country to move forward in the 21st century (Any religion, Islam, Judaism, Christianity, etc?are designed to slow down progress)

5. The USA, Canada, France, etc?and most western countries are far ahead of all Muslim countries combined because they made the right decision to separate religion from politics and civil laws

6. The reason why you do not hear that Christianity is a terrorist religion (even though the USA is committing some serious crimes in the Middle-East) is because Bush and his buddies do not fight using the name of religion and America does separate religion from politics (same with UK, France, etc?).

7. Another thing to note is that the Iranian students taught they are getting an Islamic state and now they are fighting to get rid of the current Islamic regime (same for Taliban, Saudi, Sudan, etc?)

8. The bottom line is, after 1500 years, there was never a TRUE Muslim country (correct me if I am wrong)

9. And in the 21st century, there are about 72 ?Muslim? countries. Can you name one country that is applying ?True Islam??

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan Wa ssalam

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11:49 am    November 30, 2003
MB
9
8
oui mais cette loi islamike de "Medine"...n est elle pas un peu trop rigide ??? cette meme loi ordonne de couper la main du voleur ( certes pas du premier coup mais apres le 3 eme vole )...elle orodnne aussi de foueter hommes et femmes en cas d adultere ...tt cela ( la loi islamique ) donne des frissons ds le dos ...et ne donne pas une belle image de l islam en general...ca lui donne au contraire une image assez barbare...
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11:15 am    November 30, 2003

abdelilah message
8
L'Arabie Saoudite n'applique certes pas le vrai Islam, car les emirs sont les grands voleurs et les grands forniqueurs et pourtant ils broutent a leur guise l'herbe de leur royaume. Le modele que l'on peut appeler Islamique fut celui de Medine, and that's it.
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9:22 am    November 30, 2003
MB
7
6
samir ,
je suis tt a fait d accord avec toi...mais tu dis ....

le probleme c'est que l'image de l'islam aujourd'hui dans le monde s'est m?lang?e ? celle de benladen ou les taliban ou au mieux ? l'arabie saoudite ou on applique les lois islamique

bon je ne sais pas pour les talibans et benladen mais en tt cas l arabie saoudite applike comme tu viens de le dire la LOI ISLAMIKE....tel k elle a ete dicte ds le coran (je pense)...donc les gens n ont pas vraiment une fausse image de l islame vu que l islam appelle a ces solution barbares....( couper la main du voleur, voiler la femme, donner 100 fouet a je ne sais ki ...etc)... certes oui je suis d accord avec toi ke l image est exagere mais justifie aussi d une certaine facon...

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7:53 am    November 30, 2003
samir?
6
Quand on dit "vendre", ca ne veux pas dire commercialiser. ca veut surtout dire "donner une image positive". le probleme c'est que l'image de l'islam aujourd'hui dans le monde s'est m?lang?e ? celle de benladen ou les taliban ou au mieux ? l'arabie saoudite ou on applique les lois islamique.
alors qu'il est franchement de notre dovoir en ce moment de contribuer ? changer cette image. pas forcement en buvant des bi?res devant tou le monde ou en d?niant compl?tement notre religion. mais en participant activement au d?bat et en s'opposant aux id?es extr?mistes qui ne sont pas les notres. en exposant chacun sa vision de l'islam pour qu'on comprenne collectivement que la religion nn'implique pas forcement la haine des autres ou le mepris envers les autres religion.
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6:03 am    November 29, 2003

abdelilah message
5
L'idee meme de "vendre" l'Islam est une idee philosophiquement etrangere a l'Islam pas du fait d'un antagonisme entre notre religion et le commerce (en fait L'islam encourage le commerce) mais parce que la foi ne se vend pas. L'organe utilise par l'occident est la raison ou la poche. L'Islam necessite le coeur vide pour pouvoir etre rempli. Il est vrai que notre etat derisoire qui s'eloigne du modele Andaloux repousse tous ceux qui aspirent a un Islam soutenu et noble. Le Soufisme attire par sa lueur nombreux intellectuels et artistes aux yeux bleus et aux cheveux blonds. L'Islam des moutons qui broutent le Petrole et prennet du poids attire les pauvres en mal d'argent.
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6:25 pm    November 28, 2003
MB
4
le 3 c etait moi ...et have no clue what this S.A link is ??
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6:24 pm    November 28, 2003