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Adnane Ben.
Boston USA
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438
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Ramadan: A Month of Good Changes
12:00:00 AM Sunday Oct 26, 2003



Happy Ramadan to all ! May it bring you guidance and changes.

God said: "Ya Ayyouha Alladhina Aamanou, Koutiba 3alaykoumou Ssiyamou kama Koutiba 3ala Ladhin Min Qablikoum, La3allakoum Tattaqoun."

Tattaqoun, in my humble opinion, is to be pro-active. To think twice before doing anything, to evaluate its good and bad, to avoid the bad, to prevent the bad, to do the good, to plan for the good.

What is the one thing, if you were to list only one, you are targetting to change in yourself by the end of this Ramadan, that will make the biggest difference in your personal life? in your work? in your studies?

The content of this page —graphics, text and other elements—is © Copyright 2007 prospective author, and Raioo, Inc., only when stated otherwise, and may not be reprinted or retransmitted in whole or in part without the expressed written consent of the publisher.



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11:43 am    November 23, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
438
437
Same here!
·

10:48 am    November 23, 2003
Lui
437
Hi All,

After going through the previous posting, I noticed that this discussion is going in an infinite circle without achieving any goals. Therefore, I am pulling myself out of it.

Aid Mobarak Said to all the believers of Islam 1.0 ;)

·

7:39 pm    November 21, 2003
Ali
436
435
continued...

7. Ali counters Abu Bakr's claim with verses from the Koran. Isn't that
powerfull?

8. It seems to me that Ali knew the Koran better than both Mohammad and Abu Bakr!

9. What is going on here Negotiator? Not even a day after the death of Prophet Mohammed, and the ?True Muslims, Ali, Abu Bakr, Fatimah, etc?are fighting about inheritance?

10. Aren't you seeing here the greed displayed by the prophet's closest family members?

11. The prophet's body is dead for less than 24 hours and here they were demanding their share of the inheritance.

12. Don?t you think that Islamic inheritance is complex and obsolete?

13. I leave it up to the readers to make up their own conclusions.


Jazakomo Allah 2.0 Khairan, Wa ssalam

·

7:33 pm    November 21, 2003
Ali
435
434
Dear Negotiator:


1. When Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) died, he left one daughter Fatimah and many wives

2. Ali is the husband of Fatimah, wanted some inheritance (Koran 1.0 gives her ? of the money and wealth of the prophet)

3. Al-Abbas is a cousin of Prophet mohammed (pbuh), he wanted some inheritance as well

4. Abu Bakr is the first Caliph after the death of the prophet

5. When the prophet died, he did not leave any inheritance to his daughter Fatimah (he gave all his wealth to Charity, saying that prophets do not have heirs)

6. Here is how Ali (The husband of Fatimah) reacted to Abu Bakr's claim that people do not inherit from Prophets:

"... Fatimah came to Abu Bakr and demanded her share in the inheritance. Al-Abbas came to him and demanded his share in the inheritance. Ali came with them. Thereupon Abu Bakr said, ?The Apostle of Allah said, "We leave no inheritance, what we leave behind us is sadaqah." I shall make provisions for those for whom the Prophet had made.? On this Ali said, ?Sulayman (Solomon) inherited Dawud (David), and Zakariya said, "He may be my heir and the heir of the children of Yaqab (Zachariah and John the Baptist)"? Abu Bakr said, ?This is as this is. By Allah! You know it as I know.? Thereupon Ali said, ?THIS IS THE BOOK OF ALLAH THAT SPEAKS.? Then they became quiet and retired."

Reference (page. 393):

A. Ibn Sa'd, (d. 852 A.D.), "Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir", (Book of the Major Classes), Volume 2, translated by S. Moinul Haq, Pakistan Historical Society.

B. http://onlineislamicstore.com/b3010.html

continued...

·

3:10 pm    November 21, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
434
wachradi ngouliik, wellah makate7chem..

what does inherite means to you???
ya7ya Iherited his Father`s Prophecy,Knowledge, and if you look closely you`ll see that he said and so that inherites the posterity of JACOB, what did Jacob leave? he died way before Zackaria , so that`s means he will inherites his prophecy, not his Wealth,

and Solomon as well Allah said if you look carefully to the ayates you stated (we gave knowledge to David and Solomon, so what Solomon inherited was the knwoledge and not the money...
If you read Arabic go in the link below and see how the Scholars explained it.


http://quran.al-islam.com/Tafseer/DispTafsser.asp?nType=1&nSora=27&nAya=16&taf=KATHEER&l=arb&tashkeel=0

·

1:52 pm    November 21, 2003
Ali
433
432
continued...

3. Here is Surat AN-NAML 27:15-16

"We gave knowledge to David and Solomon: And they both said: ?Praise be to Allah, Who has favored us above many of His servants who believe!? AND SOLOMON WAS DAVID'S HEIR. He said: ?O ye people! We have been taught the speech of birds, and we have been given of every thing: this is indeed Grace manifest (from Allah.)?"

Reference: http://www.islamonline.net/surah/english/ayah.asp?hAyahID=15&hSurahID=39&hTranslator=&hType=1

4. These verses demonstrate that Prophets do have heirs who inherit them. For instance, Solomon inherited the kingdom from his father. This would naturally include David's money, houses, women, prestige etc

Jazakomo Allah 2.0 Khairan, Wa ssalam

·

1:51 pm    November 21, 2003
Ali
432
431
Dear Lui and Negotiator:

1. I tought you guys like Koran 1.0 quotes.

2. Here is Surat MARYAM 19:2-7 clearly stating that prophets do have heirs and they do inherit.

"(This is) a mention of the Mercy of thy Lord to His servant Zakariya. Behold! he cried to his Lord in secret, Praying: ?O my Lord! infirm indeed are my bones, and the hair of my head doth glisten with gray: but never am I unblest, O my Lord, in my prayer to Thee! Now I fear (what) my relatives (and colleagues) (will do) after me: but my wife is barren: so give me AN HEIR as from Thyself,- (One that) will (truly) INHERIT ME, and INHERIT the posterity of Jacob; and make him, O my Lord! one with whom Thou art well-pleased!? (His prayer was answered): ?O Zakariya! We give thee good news of a son: His name shall be Yahy?: (John) on none by that name have We conferred distinction before.?"

Reference: http://www.islamonline.net/surah/english/ayah.asp?hAyahID=2&hSurahID=55&hTranslator=&hType=1

continued...

·

12:58 pm    November 21, 2003
Lui
431
427
Ali,

I thought that you believe that Koran is not CORRECT. How do you want me to use it to back up my claims?!! This definatly goes against the logic that you are trying to use. Since my first posting, I did my best not to use Koran or ahadith in my arguments as we were arguing about the correctness of Koran itself!

Wa zayer ma3aya akhoya ou baraka man dkhol ou lakhrouj flhadra ;)

By the way, the hadith that you mentioned in post #427 gives you the answer why nobody inherited from the Prophet (PBUH) [" We (Prophets) do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity"?"]. Prophets are special case and are not inherited. Please, don?t take this special case to conclude that a general rule is not correct.

·

12:48 pm    November 21, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
430
427
You just proved my Point....
You give Proofs from Quran and Hadeets that you don`t bvelieve in , If i give you the Proof from The Quran and Hadeet, that`s because I belive in it, but you said the Quran is corrupted , the hadeets are corrupted, and can`t be trusted and still proves what you say with it, hypocrite no??

FYI,
Prophets are Not like Us, Prophets don`t have any Heirs, every thing they leave goes to charity..., is that hard to understand?

The prophet had 9 wives when he died, but still Muslims aren`t allowed to marry more than 4.....,

·

12:38 pm    November 21, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
429
....y a pleins de possibilite ou la femme va etre b.... bien comme il faut ds l heritage...ne sois pas aveugle par la religion encore une fois tu vois la chose d un seul angle
*In the first place why does this woman have to wait to iherite something?? she should have her own money, that she can work for, you think that women are dependent on the money they inherite from their husbands or their parents...??!!!?? you are the one who is looking at things from one side, you see that women get screwed only in heritage, But you should know that l`heritage isn`t every thing ,
People are studying the Muslim way of inheritance , they are spending months to study that, and here you come and say la loi islamike concernant l`heritage est injuste... wow , did you look at it , do you know it? i said that l`heritage is a science it self that people spend years to study, and here we see two people who knows it all and judged it in just two sentences...
So Mb,
Do you like ali`s way of inheritance? give 100% to the wife or husband, if they both die at the same time(rarely happens) divide 100% among the children? if they had no children then charity gets every thing?? THIS IS ONLY IF THEYHAVE SOMETHING LEFT AFTER THEY DIE, so you won`t give me another sarcastic answer ....
Stop looking at Women as just wives, there are Mothers Daughters, and Sisters as well......,

·

12:37 pm    November 21, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
428
MB,
Moi aussi je repete encore une fois ma reponse... 3ayech f 3am 6oubba,
You are again assuming things...., i can`t believe you...,
who said after the death of your parents you`ll end up under the mercy of an unknown person?? why do you have to assume things, who said tu doit dependre de kk un pour subvenir a tes besoins?? why are you mixing things to show that inheritance in Islam is Unjust?? ben si tu veux jouter la loi ke t`a appeller MA loi dans la poubelle, go ahead, but do you know that in the doustour it is still says we are an Islmaic Country?? any ways this is not our subject.
For the example about those who get paid 1800Dh par moi how would they pay all that, if you just take the time and read carefully what i write you wouldn`t be asking this kind of questions, because if don`t have something you can`t give it, so if they don`t have any thing they can`t give any thing, but that woulnd`t change the rule to those who have, and they don`t give, if i`m rich and i`m not taking care of my parents the i`m not good,
en plus ki te dis k elle va heriter kkchose,
*walalla wa7naya kangoulou , SI, IF, IDDA , KOUN..... aw
et si elle est adopte meskina,
*the person who adopted her is allowed to give her 1/3 of his wealth, so what`s the problem here?? and she can inherite from her original parents, if she knows them....

·

12:31 pm    November 21, 2003
Ali
427
421
Dear Negotiator:

I quote you:

"4. However, when the prophet died, he gave 100% of his money to charity.
He didn`t leave any thing to begging with...."
My Answer:
Sahih Muslim, Book 019, Number 4351:
"It is narrated on the authority of 'A'isha who said: When the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) passed away, his wives made up their minds to send 'Uthman b. 'Affan (as their spokesman) to Abu Bakr to demand from him their share from the legacy of the Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him). (At this), A'isha said to them: Hasn't the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said:" We (Prophets) do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity"?"

Reference: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/019.smt.html#019.4351

1. Yes Prophet Mohammed (pbuh), left a lot of money!

2. I tought you are the one who knows more about Islam and Koran

3. Please, for the education of all the users of this forum, provide us with hadeeths, koran verses to back up YOUR claims. I do!. So you should as well!

Jazakomo Allah 2.0 Khairan, Wa ssalam

·

12:12 pm    November 21, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
426
Folks, Ali, Negotiator, Louie and MB and others who were involved in this recent "debate" about the versioning of spiritual things (God, Islam..) as well as materialistic means that manifest aspects of these spiritual things (The Koran, us humans..) -- I just want to remind all of you that tonight will be celebrated as Lailat Al-Qadr. This night is special most importantly because it was then when God started revealing the Koran to our beloved prophet Mohammed.

I find no other way to express the unity of Muslims but through Koran. Please let's respect this book which was given incredible attention by God himself, Prophet Mohammed, and all Muslims before us.

What we need is more unity, and that starts by agreeing on Koran, reading the Koran, understanding it and passing the knowledge. So I remind myself and all of you to read Koran if you're not doing so.

Finally, Prophet Mohammed advised his wife when she asked him how should we benefit out of lailat Al-Qadr, Prophet Mohammed said (and I don't have the credentials here, I just know the message of the Hadith in my mind).. he said: say the following prayer during the night and reflect on it:

Rabbi Innaka 3afouwoun, Tou7ibbou L3afwa, Fa3fou 3anni.

O God you are forgiving, and you love to forgive, so forgive me.

Enjoy the Night!

·

9:51 am    November 21, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
425
8. Just like we, Muslims, keep telling the Jews, Christians, etc..that their "Holy books" are not 100% accurate, as a Muslim, I also believe that Koran 1.0 is not 100% accurate (typos, memory problems, politics, fighting among sahabah, etc..)

First of All According to your writtings you are not a MUSLIM, so don`t say we Muslims, Muslims believe in Islam, not Islam1 or 2, Muslims believe in Quran not Quran 1 or 2, Muslims Belive in Allah not Allah 1 or 2....

10. Let's read it, get inspired by its stories (some are just fairy tales!),
but let's not put a period where Allah put a comma!

I thought you didn`t believe in Allah ???? so what is this Game ?? are you doing the copy/paste from some where? cause this same sentence was written so many times with the exact words..., you didn`t even take the time to change Allah to Allah 2.0....!!!!! khrej 3leek remdan

·

9:38 am    November 21, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
424
Sorry Adnane,
You can delete Message 422 , i posted it twice...
·

9:36 am    November 21, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
423
1. Sahih Muslim has a "Strange Hadith"?. What a "strange answer" you have for us Negotiator. It seems to me that I confronted you with real contradictions in Koran 1.0 and you are in denial of this clear truth?
Again you are saying you found contradiction in Quran , but you are giving a hadith against quran, do you know what`s hadith and what`s quran?

Fussilat doesn`t contradict the verse where it says we created Earth and Heaven in 6 days, Fussilat confirmes that, you are the one who is denying that Fact, you keep saying yes it does, i told you go ask people who are better than me and you In Arabic and they will tell you that 4 days include teh first 2 days ..., Again you keep repeating the same thing...

6. You are using the word "tafssir" as a scapegoat as usual. "Muslims 1.0" will try to explain AWAY any contradictions in Koran 1.0 using this tactic.

I recognize my self and say that i cannot Look at The Quran and explain the way i want , that is why i go by the tafssir, cause your arabic or mine isn`t good to explain the Quran. unlike you , you are just explaining right and left.....

7. I know where you are coming from, though. If Muslims 1.0 ADMIT that Koran 1.0 has contradictions (and it does, see my earlier arguments), they are basically admitting that Islam 1.0 is flawed (this goes against the accepted
"NORM" that Islam 1.0 is the only 100% true religion of the UNIVERSE and everything in it is 100% true)

If Muslims admit that there are contradictions in Quran , then they are not Muslims, because Allah said (walaw kana min 3indi ghayri allah la wajadou fihi ikhtilfan ....)

·

9:35 am    November 21, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
422
1. Sahih Muslim has a "Strange Hadith"?. What a "strange answer" you have for us Negotiator. It seems to me that I confronted you with real contradictions in Koran 1.0 and you are in denial of this clear truth?
Again you are saying you found contradiction in Quran , but you are giving a hadith against quran, do you know what`s hadith and what`s quran?
Fussilat doesn`t contradict the verse where it says we created Earth and Heaven in 6 days, Fussilat confirmes that, you are the one who is denying that Fact, you keep saying yes it does, i told you go ask people who are better than me and you In Arabic and they will tell you that 4 days include teh first 2 days ..., Again you keep repeating the same thing...

6. You are using the word "tafssir" as a scapegoat as usual. "Muslims 1.0" will try to explain AWAY any contradictions in Koran 1.0 using this tactic.
I recognize my self and say that i cannot Look at The Quran and explain the way i want , that is why i go by the tafssir, cause your arabic or mine isn`t good to explain the Quran. unlike you , you are just explaining right and left.....

7. I know where you are coming from, though. If Muslims 1.0 ADMIT that Koran 1.0 has contradictions (and it does, see my earlier arguments), they are basically admitting that Islam 1.0 is flawed (this goes against the accepted
"NORM" that Islam 1.0 is the only 100% true religion of the UNIVERSE and everything in it is 100% true)

·

9:34 am    November 21, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
421
If you understand Arabic or English you can understand that Allah said : There is a share for men and a Share for women, does a share mean they are equal? no unless you explain it that way !!??!!! and then after that he said and women gets half what men gets..., where is the contradiction you are talking about??? if i give you $2000 and give MB $1000 , i still can say i gave you a share and her a share....,
Didn`t you screw your Mother when you gave all your Wealth to your wife after you die??? wella your wife is a woman and Your mother isn`t one?? Didn`t you screw your sisters when you gave Every thing to your wife??? didn`t you screw your Daughters when you gave your wife every thing?? So yes women are screwed if you are the one to put rules. at least Allah cared about all women and not just one he divided the Money on all of them, and said that we don`t know who is closer to us from our parents and children.

4. However, when the prophet died, he gave 100% of his money to charity.
He didn`t leave any thing to begging with....

7. Why did Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) give 100% as a will (wasiyyah) to charity? Muslims are not supposed to give more than 1/3 as a will (wasiyyah)?
What`s your proof that he did??

8. Immediately after the Prophet?s death, Fatima, his daughter and also the wife of Ali, demanded that her inheritance rights must be respected. This caused problems between Ali and Abu Bakr and Umar, etc? (Wasn?t this an oversight from the prophet?s point of view)? This indeed caused the initial differences that led to Shiaa and Sunni sects?
Where did you find this? this isn`t true, Ali and Abubakr and Omar never had Problems, where do you bring those lies from?

·

8:29 am    November 21, 2003
sanita
420
do u know where I can watch salat dial tarawi7 men mecca?
·

9:05 pm    November 20, 2003
Ali
419
Dear Negotiator:

1. When Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) died, he left ONE daughter, Fatima, and many wives.

2. According to Surat An-Nisa: 4:11-12, the daughter was supposed to receive ? of the money and the wives to receive 1/8 of the money

3. This means, 1/2 + 1/8 = 5/8 of the prophet?s money must be given to the daughter Fatima and his wives. The rest, 3/8 probably should go to charity or something like that (Koran 1.0 is not clear on this)

4. However, when the prophet died, he gave 100% of his money to charity.

5. This means that his daughter (who was married to Ali) received 0% and his wives also received 0%

6. Why didn?t Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) follow Koran 1.0 and the Islamic inheritance law, Shariaa?

7. Why did Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) give 100% as a will (wasiyyah) to charity? Muslims are not supposed to give more than 1/3 as a will (wasiyyah)?

8. Immediately after the Prophet?s death, Fatima, his daughter and also the wife of Ali, demanded that her inheritance rights must be respected. This caused problems between Ali and Abu Bakr and Umar, etc? (Wasn?t this an oversight from the prophet?s point of view)? This indeed caused the initial differences that led to Shiaa and Sunni sects?

Jazakomo Allah 2.0 Khairan, Wa ssalam

·

7:48 pm    November 20, 2003
Ali
418
413
Dear Negotiator:

Here are some verses about inheritance that ended up screwing the woman portion in inheritance:

1. Surat An-Nisa, 4:7, says:

?From what is left by parents and those nearest related there is A SHARE for men and A SHARE for women, whether the property be small or large,-a determinate share.?

Reference: http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/3_9/4_6-7.htm

2. Surat An-Nisa, 4:11 says:

?Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females?

Reference: http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/3_9/4_8-10.htm

3. Item one above gave a woman equal shares to a man?s shares. Item 2 above gave a woman only half of a man?s share.

4. To explain this contradiction, the ?Tafssir? people (they are 100% men, because women are not ?in? on making marketing and business decision, typical ceiling glass scenario in the corporate world) use what is called abrogation or annulment (or nuskh in Arabic). Basically, their solution is that verse 7 (item 1 above) is abrogated or annulled (mansukh) and verse 11 (item 2 above) is the one abrogating (nasikh) it. In simple words: ?Women have been screwed?.

5. I believe there are about 20 such scenarios in Koran 1.0, where a different and new verse annuls an earlier verse. Is Allah 1.0 changing his/her/its mind all the time? Or is it human beings adding their own amendments to Koran 1.0? I leave it up to the readers to make their own conclusions.

Jazakomo Allah 2.0 Khairan Wa ssalm

·

4:55 pm    November 20, 2003
MB
417
tu te rapelles de l exemple du manuel pour ta fameuse tele....ben si tu prends ce manuel et tu essaye de faire marcher une tele new tech avec ..tu crois ke tu vas y arriver???????????????!!!!!! ne parlez pas ds le vide...ne dis pas que la loi islamike concernant l heritage est juste...car elle l est pas ...
·

4:55 pm    November 20, 2003
MB
416
Nego, tres cher Nego,

No she isn`t, she inherites from her parents, from her brothers ans sisters, and from her sons or daughters..., plus her daughters should take care of her.


je repete encore une fois ma question ...wach 3ayech f3am lfil ou bien en 2003....a sidi...chacun a sa vie ...daughters and sons ki touchent 1800 DH par moi ki ont des gosses et un mari/femme..n ont pas les moyens de payer tt ca ...en plus ki te dis k elle va heriter qqch??? et si elle est adopte meskina...elle herite ke dal de son mari et personne d autre de ki heriter....y a pleins de possibilite ou la femme va etre b.... bien comme il faut ds l heritage...ne sois pas aveugle par la religion encore une fois tu vois la chose d un seul angle...et tu as dis si elle a pas de male ds la famille ben elle doit vivre de zakat ??? koiiiiiiiii????!!!!!! vivre de zakat???!!!!!!! apres la mort de mes parents je vais me retrouver a la merci d inconnu...meme mes oncles je ne veux pas etre a leur merci ( et dieu sait ke je l es adores)...mais ce ke t as tjs pas compris nego c est k on veut etre autonome....je ne voudrais pas a dependre d inconnu pour subvenir ames besoins...en plus de sa votre loi...ben elle est a jetter ds la poubelle...tu parle de loi islamike ...mais ca va pas ou koi ...la loi islamike kand les gens sont musulmans....on est ds un pays et une epoque ki n a plus les meme valeurs religieuse k il y a 1500...donc cette loi est depasse...elle n est plus valable car les gens ne sont plus les memes...


·

4:43 pm    November 20, 2003
Ali
415
414
continued...

7. I know where you are coming from, though. If Muslims 1.0 ADMIT that Koran 1.0 has contradictions (and it does, see my earlier arguments), they are basically admitting that Islam 1.0 is flawed (this goes against the accepted
"NORM" that Islam 1.0 is the only 100% true religion of the UNIVERSE and everything in it is 100% true)

8. Just like we, Muslims, keep telling the Jews, Christians, etc..that their "Holy books" are not 100% accurate, as a Muslim, I also believe that Koran 1.0 is not 100% accurate (typos, memory problems, politics, fighting among sahabah, etc..)


9. And as I said before, Koran 1.0 just like any other "Holy" book is just
a nice collection of general guidelines about life, relationships, etc...

10. Let's read it, get inspired by its stories (some are just fairy tales!),
but let's not put a period where Allah put a comma!

11. So let's stop quoting Koran 1.0 word for word and stop at that!

12. I said it before, I presented very good factual arguments about the creation theory contradiction in Koran 1.0 (6 days vs 7, 8, and 9 days creation) and you presented your responses, so let the readers of this forum decide for themselves!


Jazakomo Allah 2.0 Khairan, Wa ssalam

·

4:39 pm    November 20, 2003
Ali
414
413
Dear Negotiator:

1. Sahih Muslim has a "Strange Hadith"?. What a "strange answer" you have for us Negotiator. It seems to me that I confronted you with real contradictions in Koran 1.0 and you are in denial of this clear truth?

2. You asked for a reliable person who contradicts the 6 days creation
theory of Koran 1.0 (Sura 7:54).

3. I gave you verses from Koran 1.0 itself (Surah Fussilat, 41:9-12). That
was not enough for you

4. I gave you a hadeeth by Abu Huraira quoting Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) himself,
clearly stating that it took at least 7 days (not including the 2 days for
heaven, 9 total). And that was not enough for you.

(ref:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/039.smt.html#03
9.6707)

6. This leads me to believe that:

===> A. Abu Huraira is a liar or made a mistake

===> B. Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) is a liar or made a mistake

===> C. Allah 1.0 is a liar or made a mistake

===> D. Koran 1.0 has a mistake (not 100% correct)

===> E. Koran 1.0 writers made a mistake (meaning Koran 1.0 we have now is not 100% correct)

===> F. Negotiator is in 100% in denial.

6. You are using the word "tafssir" as a scapegoat as usual. "Muslims 1.0" will try to explain AWAY any contradictions in Koran 1.0 using this tactic.


continued...

·

12:26 pm    November 20, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
413
This doesn`t contradict the Quran, First of all i said show me ONE tafssir, this is not tafssir this a hadith did you look at it`s tafssir??
If you did you`ll see that they said it was a Strange Hadith...

If you try to explain it your self , then we will have more than 9 days, since Earth and Heavens and stars and The Moon and The Sun wasn`t mentioned in there....

·

12:10 pm    November 20, 2003
Lui
412
400
Ali,

May be you read my last post, but I don?t you understood completely. Otherwise, you won?t be asking me the type of questions in your posting #400.

All your arguments are based on one idea: Koran is not 100% correct! Are you sure 100% that writers of Koran added anything to it? ?Who knows?? is not a valid augment to prove that something is not correct at least in your logic!

If you read carefully and followed the logic in my posting #395, you will see that, at the end, inheritance works against men! Although they get twice as much as women, they are forced to take care of other women in their family. Women, on the hand, are not asked to do so. Then, show me again how Koran in trying to appease men through inheritance?

So what if this is the 21st century? Do you want us have a new religion for each century that comes along? What about if we are happy with what we have? I don?t know what 50 years old women you are talking about! Once again, if you follow my logic in my posting #395, you can conclude easily that in Islam any women (regardless of her age) should be taken care of by some other men. If, nowadays, we still see women not being taking care, then this due to the fact that muslims are not implementing their true Islam. Please stop judging Islam by what today?s muslims are doing!

·

12:09 pm    November 20, 2003
Lui
411
399
Ali,

Islam is not based on Koran alone. It uses Suna to clarify many aspects of the religion. For the case of Inheritance, more explanations about its math are described in Ahadiths. Before you jump to any conclusions, this fact doesn?t mean that Koran is incorrect. At the end, it is just a finite book and it can?t contain all the knowledge and laws of the Universe. One of the jobs of the Prophet (PBUH) was the ease our understanding of Koran and even shows us how to apply it. Another example to show this fact is how to perform Salat. Koran didn?t give us all the details about Salat. However, the Prophet (PBUH) showed his followers how to do it and we are still doing it the same way until today in you famous 21st century.

No, I don?t think that the inheritance system is absolute as it is now. It worked fine for about 1400 years. What 21st century realities are you talking about? Is it because muslims are down now? All what is happening to us is due to us not to Islam. Go back to history if you still believe in it, and see how muslims were at the top of the world at one time. It was due to their hard work and not like our laziness today. This is one of the realities the 21st century that we must change.

·

10:57 am    November 20, 2003
Ali
410
409
Dear Negotiator:

I quote you:

"I challenged you to give me just 1 person who said there is a contradiction in the number of days that God spent to create Earth and Heavens. you couldn`t"

MY ANSWER:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/039.smt.html#039.6707

I repeat the Hadeeth for the benefit of the readers (this is Sahih Muslim book 39):

"Abu Huraira reported that Allah's Messenger (mpbuh) took hold of my hands and said:

---Allah the Exalted and Glorious, created the clay on Saturday and

---He created the mountains on Sunday and

---He created the trees on Monday and

---He created the things entailing labour on Tuesday and

---created light on Wednesday and

---He caused animals to spread on Thursday and

---created Adam (pbuh) after 'Asr on Friday; the last creation at the last hour of the hours of Friday, ie. between afternoon and night."


DURATION OF CREATION = 7 days! (count them)

WHAT PART OF THIS HADEETH DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND?

Is Abu Huraira a liar? is prophet Mohammed (pbuh) a liar? is Allah 1.0 a liar? is it 6, 7, 8?


Jazakomo Alla 2.0 Khairan, Wa ssalam

·

10:30 am    November 20, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
409
==>7. This means the Wife is screwed ($833, that's about 2 months worth of living in Casablanca). No job. No house. No security. (Koran 1.0 is not fair to the wives!)

No she isn`t, she inherites from her parents, from her brothers ans sisters, and from her sons or daughters..., plus her daughters should take care of her.

==>9. AGAIN: do you have a specific verse in KORAN 1.0 that states the left over should go to who?

There is 3ilm alfara2id, whitch has almirat in it, if you read about it you might get some answers, there shouldn`t be any left over, because there are people who inherites by ta3ssib, so usually only when there is no body to inherite when we give to bayt almal....,

2. Remember, that it was you who kept on quoting Koran 1.0 to justify many of your views in this forum.

And since you don`t believe in it
would it make a difference?

5. Even though I am SPECIFICALLY asking you for a Koran 1.0 verse to support your claims, you are hiding behind tafssir.

I tell you to go to tafssir , cause you showed that you are unable to understand plain Arabic, God said he created the Earth , and Mountains etc.., in 4 days , you explained it the way you wanted....

6. This only means that Koran 1.0 is not clear in Arabic (the iffy part of my assertion that Koran 1.0 is very iffy). Which means different commentators will interpret it differently.

I challenged you to give me just 1 person who said there is a contradiction in the number of days that God spent to create Earth and Heavens. you couldn`t

·

10:29 am    November 20, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
408
3. if both the husband and the wife
die, 100% of the money goes to the children and divided EQUALY between them (regardless of penis or vagina)

What about the parents of the husband and wife?? who will take care of them??

4. if No children are available, 100% of the money goes to charity (build schools, hospitals, take care of elderly people, etc?)

What about the Parents, Brothers , Sisters ......

5. Very simple!

oh yeah very simple, people wrote boooks and books for this and you just solved it in 4 sentences..., genius hmmmmm

3. If you look at the realities of 1500 years ago, Arab men at the time used to kill a new born daughter, women were degraded, looked at as ONLY half (maybe Koran 1.0 was amended to give half as much in order to appease MEN?) etc...That is the reason why probably the inheritance system you explained in your posting might have solved some of the problems then!

First Of all , it was before Islam when people used to kill their new born daughters, PLUS things that you don`t know, Before Islam if some body dies and he leaves a wife , hse gets nothing neither do his sons if they don`t go to war, nor his daughters, ONLY MEN used to inherite they even inherite women, the uncle takes his brother`s money and women and sons and daughters, he only gives some of the money to his sons who can fight.......

·

10:27 am    November 20, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
407
a. A father is responsible of taking care of his daughters until they get married.

Yes, and How did your sisers get to what they are now??? weren`t your parents responsible for them? who paid their education? so when the sons or daughters get old and they start taking care of their selves they should take care of their prants as well, you can go back to surat alba9arah ayah 215, and see that Allah said ( yass2alunaka mada younfi9oun, 9oul ma2anfa9toum min khayrin FALILWALEDAYNI WAL2A9RABINA...) ( WABILWALIDAYNI I7SSANA...) ( WA WASSAYNA AL2INSSANA BIWALIDAYHI 7USSNAN..) SO IF YOU SEE IN THESE AYATE Allah is asking us(sons and daughetrs) he didn`t specify that only sons has to take care of their parents.

Answer: Not true anymore. Divorce (Halal by order of Allah 1.0) is going up in Muslim nations. The woman is on her own after the divorce. And yes, the women get screwed 99% of the time during divorce (Moroccan Moudawana!!!).

Can you tell me where you got the 99% ?? do you know about nafa9ah in Islam? about Sada9 ?


Answer: Not true anymore: what happens if there are no sons when the husband dies (the wife is now 100% screwed)

See above ...

1. If a husband dies, 100% of the money goes to the wife.

Let`s say a man has a wife with 2 sons and then their mother died , their father remarried again and then he died so his new wife will take 100%, if she is a Biach, do you know what will happen to those poor kids? think further than your shoes...

2. If a wife dies, 100% of the money goes to the husband

Same as above, and if the husband had parnets who will take care of them???

·

10:26 am    November 20, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
406
Answer: For my own education, is there a Koran 1.0 ?ayat? that states that a woman is not obliged to help support her husband, kids, and her family (especially in the 21st century, marriage is about sharing and supporting each other and the family, life is tough!)

(Arrijalou 9awwamouna 3ala annisa2 ...)

d. If the wife does not have any sons, then the society has to take care of here until she dies.

Her Daughters, Brothers or sisters, cousins......, Society doesn`t have to take care of any body, if every body gives Zakat we won`t have this Problem , but i`m talking about the zakat that is the 4th pillar of Islma not the one you said, remember $1 a year.....just no comment,

e. Normally, sons are the ones that take care of their parents financially when they get old.

No not necessarely.... any body can take care of their parents, sons and daughters....

Answer: 1500 years ago, women did not go to universities and there was no work outside the home and farm. Therefore the responsibility of providing for the family was on the shoulder of men (1500 tribal mentality). If women were strong 1500 years ago, I have absolutely no doubt that Koran 1.0 would have said a woman gets TWICE what the man gets (the strongest imposes the rules, i.e. USA and the world)

Wow you have no Doubt ??!!??? If we Follow your reasoning then The strongest is Allah, so he imposes the Rules.., or you are strongest??

·

8:21 pm    November 19, 2003
Ali
405
404
continued...

6. Although a woman gets only a half of what a man gets, it is for her and only for her.

Answer: For my own education, is there a Koran 1.0 ?ayat? that states that a woman is not obliged to help support her husband, kids, and her family (especially in the 21st century, marriage is about sharing and supporting each other and the family, life is tough!)

7. Now, you might even think that inheritance is unfair toward men. However, I am pretty sure that if you add other rules in Islam, things will even up.

Answer: to the contrary, it?s unfair to women. Make it equal. Make the support equal. And ?things will even up?

8. You might argue about point 2.(d). May be society is not doing its job by taking care of women that don?t have a father or husband or a son. But, you should agree with me that this due to muslins and not Islam.

Answer: if a woman goes to school, she will get an education. And yes she is capable of taking care of herself. Society provides school opportunity and jobs. Human beings need to be fair when it comes to treating both men and women (in Muslim societies, women need a lot of help)

FINALLY: Let's have a vote (only women vote on this issue) in all Muslim nations to see if inheritance is fair or unfair. I guarantee you that inheritance as it's in Islam will be repealed.

Jazakomo Allah 2.0 Khairan, Wa ssalam

·

8:18 pm    November 19, 2003
Ali
404
403
continued...

d. If the wife does not have any sons, then the society has to take care of here until she dies.

Answer: Not sustainable anymore: France and Canada both have a lot of ?Chomage?. There is a limit to how much a society can provide. Communism did not work either. People are lazy by default (in both France and Canada, north Africans find a heaven in ?Chomage?: i.e, get Chomage and go back to Morocco to live on $600. very good income for Morocco).

e. Normally, sons are the ones that take care of their parents financially when they get old.

Answer: I gave you the example of my sisters (see item 2.a above). In the real world, females are far more compassionate than males. And yes they take good care of their parents the majority of the time.

3. I agree with you that rule #1 by ITSELF is unfair.

Answer: So let?s change it by upgrading Koran 1.0 to Koran 2.0 (by eliminating the ?ayat? that do not make sense anymore in the 21st century

4. In rule #2, the financial responsibilities are mandatory on men (father, husband, and son) and not women (mother, wife, and daughter).

Answer: For my own education, is there a Koran 1.0 ?ayat? that states these rules (?Mandatory for men but optional for women?).

5. If you put rule #1 and #2 together (and use some of your logic J), you can see clearly that, although a man get twice as much as a women, he has to share his part of the money with whoever he is responsible of.

Answer: if every one gets the same share, then everyone will need to provide equal support (The reality is, men get twice the money. Women do twice the support.)


continued...

·

8:15 pm    November 19, 2003
Ali
403
402
continued...

Let?s take inheritance as an example:

1. A son inherits twice as much as a daughter.

Answer: 1500 years ago, women did not go to universities and there was no work outside the home and farm. Therefore the responsibility of providing for the family was on the shoulder of men (1500 tribal mentality). If women were strong 1500 years ago, I have absolutely no doubt that Koran 1.0 would have said a woman gets TWICE what the man gets (the strongest imposes the rules, i.e. USA and the world)

2. Let?s look at other rules in Islam:

a. A father is responsible of taking care of his daughters until they get married.

Answer: Not true in the 21st century. I have 2 sisters, one in France and the other in Canada. They are not married and with their income, they can support my Dad and mom and all of my brothers combined. Koran 1.0 does not mention a scenario like this (because it was written 1500 years with a male dominated mentality). For my own education, is there a Koran 1.0 verse that says item ?a? above. Today?s daughters are pilots, doctors, lawyers, and they don?t need their father nor brothers to take care of them (it?s nice but NOT mandatory)

b. A husband is responsible of taking care of his wife until she dies.

Answer: Not true anymore. Divorce (Halal by order of Allah 1.0) is going up in Muslim nations. The woman is on her own after the divorce. And yes, the women get screwed 99% of the time during divorce (Moroccan Moudawana!!!).

c. If the husband dies before his wife, her sons are responsible of taking care of her.

Answer: Not true anymore: what happens if there are no sons when the husband dies (the wife is now 100% screwed)

continued...

·

8:11 pm    November 19, 2003
Ali
402
401
Dear adnane:

A. Although I agree with the concept in an ideal world, the realities of the 21st century are so advanced that what Lui said is simply obsolete.

B. All of the rules that Lui mentioned in his posting, are assuming that women can?t take care of themselves. Not true anymore in the 21st century (USA, Canada, etc?dual income).

C. So let?s not assume that women are children with a small brain who are incapable of making their own decisions and controlling their own destiny (1500 years ago is a lot different from the 21st century).

D. Women are kicking butts in every modern field in the 21st century. And yes, they make a lot of money.
E. So here are my answers to Lui?s items:

Islam is a one big system. To understand it, you need to look at it as one piece. If you take one law in Islam by itself, it might look to you as unfair. However, if you put it together with the other rules, you will appreciate it better.

Answer: Islam 1.0 is also a very complex system. It needs to be simplified. Inheritance in Islam is just complex. This is how I will change it if I were ?Prophet Ali of the 21st century?

1. If a husband dies, 100% of the money goes to the wife.

2. If a wife dies, 100% of the money goes to the husband

3. if both the husband and the wife die, 100% of the money goes to the children and divided EQUALY between them (regardless of penis or vagina)

4. if No children are available, 100% of the money goes to charity (build schools, hospitals, take care of elderly people, etc?)

5. Very simple!

continued...

·

3:01 pm    November 19, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
401
400
Ali, regarding bullet number 2. -- Louie gave a nice thought about inheritance and you seem to agree with him on his understanding. Can you explain why you think it doesn't work now?
·

2:32 pm    November 19, 2003
Ali
400
395
Dear Lui:

1. I am with you on your thinking. I read and understood what you said.

2. The rules of inheritance came some 1500 years ago (prophet Mohammed (pbuh), his followers, Koran 1.0 writers, might have made a mistake in inheritance rules, who knows? it worked then BUT not NOW!)

3. If you look at the realities of 1500 years ago, Arab men at the time used to kill a new born daughter, women were degraded, looked at as ONLY half (maybe Koran 1.0 was amended to give half as much in order to appease MEN?) etc...That is the reason why probably the inheritance system you explained in your posting might have solved some of the problems then!

4. This is the 21st century. I gave you an example in an early posting, and it's clear that a 50 year old Muslim wife will be financially screwed under Islamic inheritance (an upgrade is definitely needed. Ijtihad?)


Jazakomo Allah 2.0 Khairan, Wa ssalam

·

2:19 pm    November 19, 2003
Ali
399
392
Dear Lui:

1. Is there anywhere in Koran 1.0 where it says what to do with the rest of the money? (references to a surat)

2. Is there anywhere in Koran 1.0 where it SPECIFICALLY says you give 1/3 to the parents (from what is LEFT after donating 2/3 to the 3 daughters)?

3. The point I am making here is that Koran 1.0 is not 100% complete and there are 0% discrepancies in it (Negotiator claims that Koran 1.0 is 100% complete, accurate, true word of Allah 1.0, etc...)

4. Don't you think that the inheritance as it is in Koran 1.0 is obsolete in the 21st century. This means that the so called "tafssir" people and Islamic scholars need to upgrade their thinking to the 21st century realities.


Jazakomo Allah 2.0 Khairan, Wa ssalam

·

2:10 pm    November 19, 2003
Ali
398
397
continued...

7. The fact that many people interpret Koran 1.0 differently is proof enough that we can go as far as saying, hey: inheritance is NOT JUST for Muslim wives in the 21st century and here is a typical case from Casablanca Morocco:


==>1. In 2003 in Casablanca, a man owns a house worth $30,000

==>2. He has 4 daughters, a wife, and the 2 parents

==>3. When he dies, this is what happens based on your method of calculating:

==>4. daughters get : $20,000 (about $5000 each). Now we have $10000 left

==>5. Parents get: ($10000)/3 = $3333. Now we have $6667 left

==>6. Wife gets: ($6667)/8 = $833. Now we have 5834.

==>7. This means the Wife is screwed ($833, that's about 2 months worth of living in Casablanca). No job. No house. No security. (Koran 1.0 is not fair to the wives!)

==>8. Who gets the $5834 left? His Majesty the King M6, Amir Al Mouminin?

==>9. AGAIN: do you have a specific verse in KORAN 1.0 that states the left over should go to who?

==>10. Do not hide behind "go to tafssir". This is the standard answer given by "Muslims 1.0" when faced with true contradictions in Koran 1.0.

Jazakomo Allah 2.0 Khairan, Wa ssalam

·

2:10 pm    November 19, 2003
Ali
397
389
Dear Negotiator:

1. Since you are unable to point to a specific verse in Koran 1.0 to support your claims, I will assume that you do not have any proofs in Koran 1.0

2. Remember, that it was you who kept on quoting Koran 1.0 to justify many of your views in this forum.

3. I challenged you by saying that Koran 1.0 should not be quoted word for word. That is how a lot of "Islamists" end up giving a bad name to Islam 1.0

4. I gave you 2 specific contradictions in Koran 1.0 (creation of the universe 6 vs. 8 days) and (inheritance math errors), I gave Koran 1.0 proofs and you did not provide any proofs (you keep pointing the readers to tafssir, without a direct link to the pages in question).

5. Even though I am SPECIFICALLY asking you for a Koran 1.0 verse to support your claims, you are hiding behind tafssir.

6. This only means that Koran 1.0 is not clear in Arabic (the iffy part of my assertion that Koran 1.0 is very iffy). Which means different commentators will interpret it differently.

continued...

·

2:10 pm    November 19, 2003
Lui
396
394
MB,

I think my last post will answer your questions...

·

2:03 pm    November 19, 2003
Lui
395
388
Ali,

Islam is a one big system. To understand it, you need to look at it as one piece. If you take one law in Islam by itself, it might look to you as unfair. However, if you put it together with the other rules, you will appreciate it better.

Let?s take inheritance as an example:

1. A son inherits twice as much as a daughter.

2. Let?s look at other rules in Islam:

a. A father is responsible of taking care of his daughters until they get married.

b.A husband is responsible of taking care of his wife until she dies.

c. If the husband dies before his wife, her sons are responsible of taking care of her.

d. If the wife does not have any sons, then the society has to take care of here until she dies.

e. Normally, sons are the ones that take care of their parents financially when they get old.

3. I agree with you that rule #1 by ITSELF is unfair.

4. In rule #2, the financial responsibilities are mandatory on men (father, husband, son) and not women (mother, wife, daughter).

5. If you put rule #1 and #2 together (and use some of your logic J), you can see clearly that, although a man get twice as much as a women, he has to share his part of the money with whoever he is responsible of.

6. Although a woman gets only a half of what a man gets, it is for her and only for her.

7. Now, you might even think that inheritance is unfair toward men. However, I am pretty sure that if you add other rules in Islam, things will even up.

8. You might argue about point 2.(d). May be society is not doing its job by taking care of women that don?t have a father or husband or a son. But, you should agree with me that this due to muslins and not Islam.

·

2:02 pm    November 19, 2003
MB
394
392
what about when they have a son ? does the son get the money ???!!!!! silly question i guess but just wanna make sure 'cause some ppl here say that i assume a lot of stuff about religion:))) ( nego , je te vanne).
·

1:58 pm    November 19, 2003
MB
393
392
thanks lui...
so the money goes to chou2oun al islamiya just when we have girls ??? !!!!!! waw...how fair!!!...
why do we have to give that money to the chou2oun al islamiya??? is chou2oun islamiya part of wizarat al aw9af???what s the difference ..?
why can t the daughters get that money ???? !!!!
·

1:48 pm    November 19, 2003
Lui
392
391
MB,

I think what is left from the 100% normally goes to ?Bait lmal?. It is what we call nowadays in Morocco ?Wizarate cho2one alislamiya? :). If the parents leave a son after their death, nothing will go to ?Bait laml?. This is one of the reasons parents usually want to have at least one son!

·

1:44 pm    November 19, 2003
MB
391
389
Nego,

assuming that it has an error???? awiiiiiiiiili 3la assuming ...wa 7sebha a sahbi....:)

MB,
Usually the Daughters get their share first and then the wife , and after that the parents and the other people who can inherite..

merci pour la precision ...mais si tu relis mon post ...tu vas trouver que j ai dis exactement la meme chose ...ma question est ou va l argent ki reste de l heritage???....
ce k on se complike la vie ...pkoi on fait pas juste des testaments???!!!...des gens ke tu connais meme pas vont venir un jour et te dire k ils ont des parts ds ce ke tes parents ont laisse....awah tu appelles ca etre correct???!!!....

·

1:05 pm    November 19, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
390
Regarding the References, I`m not taking the readers as people who don`t know where to get them....

Every body Knows where to go to read Quran in Arabic or English , French, Russian , a lot of other languages .....
But you can go to www.al-islam.com and check the tafssir your self for the ayates you stated...

·

12:59 pm    November 19, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
389
He He He....

See how easy it is for you to explain Quran the you want.....
Inheritance in Islam isn`t just some thing easy that Me you and MB can talk about , it is a science by it`s self ( 3ilm almirat) ...
If you need a detailed answer you should go to a Specialist to get an answer, in stead of assuming that it has an Error...

MB,
Usually the Daughters get their share first and then the wife , and after that the parents and the other people who can inherite..

·

11:41 am    November 19, 2003
Ali
388
386
Dear Negotiator:

1. Do you have a Koran 1.0 verse (web site url please!) to support your claims, about Islamic inheritance?

2. Go to http://www.islamicity.com/

they have a Koran 1.0 in both Arabic and English. Show us the Koran 1.0 verse that explains what you claim

3. I give references and let the readers decide. You need to do the same thing.


Jazakomo Allah 2.0 Khairan Wa ssalam

·

11:37 am    November 19, 2003
MB
387
386
nego!!!
ali is right in a way ...it still less that 100%...who gets what is left then ...cause there will be money left in this case....don t u think...???
·

11:28 am    November 19, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
386
He He He .... wach bhad l mousstawa katgoul l Quran is not correct ..

The Mathematical Error was yours, if you can calculate properly you wouldn`t make that error,
let me explain to you how it works...,
the Daughters get 2/3 fine, then the Parents get 1/3 BUT that after the Daughters take the 2/3 the parents will take the 1/3 from what is left, and not from the whole thing..., I told you that you can`t speak arabic......

When i said all that in 4 days , i meant the creation of Earth and the filling with Mountains and etc..., that means 4 days to do all that, then 2 days to create heavens.... witch means 6 days...., njibou lkhouchibat lmerra jayya wella?

·

11:26 am    November 19, 2003
MB
385
384
koike Ali , dis moi ...ds ce cas y aurait il pas un surplus...huuuum!!? j y comprends rien....je suis assez confuse la ...c est vrai il y aurait une erreur mathematike ...waw...est ce ke qq1 peut m expliquer plus clairement la repartition de cet heritage .....
·

11:21 am    November 19, 2003
MB
384
. Adding items (5, 6, and 7): 2/3 + 1/3 + 1/8 = 1 + 1/8. This is more than the available money.

10. What happened to this mathematical error?

Ali,
les filles heritent des 2/3 puis le 1/3 donne au parents on le tranche de ce ki reste apres avoir donnes aux filles leurs heritages, puis on donne a la veuve le 1/8 dependant de ce ki reste du partage.....enfin je pense ...je suis pas fquiha mais c est comme ca ke je comprends la chose...donc y a pas d erreur mathematike...y a une certaine classifications de qui passe avant ki , les enfants viennent tjs en premiere position puis la femme ( je pense ) puis les parents....
enfin bref c est complique comme t as dis et je n appelerais jamais assez a un etat separes de tte forme de religion...ni Islam 1 ni islam 2...

·

10:10 am    November 19, 2003
Ali
383
381
Dear Negotiator:

I qoute you:

"You said there ulama that explains this otherwise, can you give JUST 1 of them ?
I challenge you to find somebody that says there is contradiction....,
If you understand Arabic it would look very clear to you that Allah created Earth in 2 days and then he filled the Earth with mountains and co.., all that in 4 days, then he said he created Heavens in two days... "

1. If I understand what you wrote correctly, Do you mean 2 + 4 + 2 = 8?

2. What do you mean when you say "All that in 4 days"?

3. You asked for somebody who gave contradictions, I gave a Hadeeth refering to prophet Mohammed (pbuh). Isn't that enough contradiction for you?

4. Yes, I do speak Arabic, French, and English. Do you want to test me on languages as well? Do you want to bet?

5. Here's a challenge to you, If I am found not to speak Arabic, I will donate $1000.0 to adnane to support the raioo website. otherwise YOU donate $1000.0 to raioo.com

Jazakomo Allah 2.0 Khairan Wa ssalam

·

9:59 am    November 19, 2003
Ali
382
381
Dear Negotiator:

1. I remember when I was studying Islamic Education in Morocco (10, 11, and 12 grades (BAC)), Islamic inheritance was one of the topics

2. As I was taking the class, I always thought that this system is too complex. Too many weird rules. Too many scenarios, etc...

3. Even though I love Math, Inheritance was just too confusing and it just doesn't add up.

4. Since We Muslims keep saying that Koran 1.0 is perfect without any contradictions, here's an inheritance dilemma:

5. A man dies. He is survived by 3 daughters, 2 parents. 1 wife.

6. Based on verse 4:10, the 3 daughters get (2/3) of the money.

(ref: http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/3_9/4_8-10.htm)

7. Based on verse 4:11, the 2 parents get (1/3) of the money.

(ref: http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/3_9/4_11-11.htm)

8. Based on verse 4:12, the 1 wife gets (1/8) of the money

(ref: http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/3_9/4_12-12.htm)

9. Adding items (5, 6, and 7): 2/3 + 1/3 + 1/8 = 1 + 1/8. This is more than the available money.

10. What happened to this mathematical error?

11. I thought Koran 1.0 is 100% correct.

Jazakomo Allah 2.0 Khairan, Wa ssalam

·

9:29 am    November 19, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
381
Can you say something NEW, you are just repeating again.....

or can you at least answer my question, without hiding??? you haven`t been answering questions you just like to repeat every thing..

You said there ulama that explains this otherwise, can you give JUST 1 of them ?
I challenge you to find somebody that says there is contradiction....,
If you understand Arabic it would look very clear to you that Allah created Earth in 2 days and then he filled the Earth with mountains and co.., all that in 4 days, then he said he created Heavens in two days...

·

9:25 am    November 19, 2003
Ali
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continued...

3. It's very clear that there are contradictions in both Koran 1.0 and what Mohammed (pbuh) says.

4. I you have been following my postings (some 200 postings ago), I stated that because of the fact that Koran 1.0, was revealed over a 23 year period and it was put together some 20 years after the death of Mohammed (pbuh), it is very reasonable that some discrepancies can happen.

5. So I do still stand by my opinion that Koran 1.0 is a good book with good stories that inspire, and it has some general guidelines about life, relationships, etc...

6. As you can see, I am providing you with actual references to back up my opinions. I wish you can be specific in your answers (though, I do not think you have an answer that is convincing)

7. So I will leave it up to the readers of this forum to decide for themselves whether creation was in
6, 7, 8, or 9 days (and is Koran 1.0 100% correct!).

Jazakomo Allah 2.0 Khairan, Wa ssalam

·

9:03 am    November 19, 2003
Ali
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Dear Negotiator:

1. I think I have stated my case clearly about the creation theory. There is a contradiction within Koran 1.0 about the number of days for creation.

2. If you look at the following links in Arabic to Surah Fussilat, 41:9-12:

===>Ayah 9 and 10: http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/10_59/41_6-10.htm

===>Ayah 11 and 12: http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/10_59/41_11-14.htm
and to Surat Al-A'raf 7:53:

===>Ayah 53: http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/3_9/7_52-53.htm
....and the Hadeeth (since you asked for somebody who explained this differently, even Mohammed (pbuh) mentions 7 days in this hadeeth):

===> http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/039.smt.html#039.6707

I repeat the Hadeeth for the benefit of the readers (this is Sahih Muslim book 39):

"Abu Huraira reported that Allah's Messenger (mpbuh) took hold of my hands and said:

---Allah the Exalted and Glorious, created the clay on Saturday and

---He created the mountains on Sunday and

---He created the trees on Monday and

---He created the things entailing labour on Tuesday and

---created light on Wednesday and

---He caused animals to spread on Thursday and

---created Adam (pbuh) after 'Asr on Friday; the last creation at the last hour of the hours of Friday, ie. between afternoon and night."

continued...

·

7:47 am    November 19, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
378
8. Why is it not "CLEAR" in Koran 1.0 that: earth was created in 2 days. Earth was filled in 2 days. And heaven was created in 2

It is Very clear, it`s only you who can`t see it..., Plus if it isn`t clear to you, then there are ahadeets who simplify Quran for you , to tell you the exact things....


9. So here is a hadeeth in Sahih Muslim (remember ain abi Huraira, ain abi Negotiator, ain abu Ali, ain, ain, ain, etc...):

Why didn`t you say that that Hadith was called a Strange Hadith !!??? Plus that hadith is under The creation of Adam, if you go to the creation of the Earths and heavens you`ll find a similar Hadith that says that Heavens were created on Thursday and then on Friday God created Stars, Sun , Moon and the Angles...,

If the prophet(PBUH) didn`t know how to count would he have said if you fast 3 days in a mOnth it`s like you fasted the whole Month???

P.S You think i don`t know where to find the Arabic Quran???

·

7:47 am    November 19, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
377
1. Why didn't Allah 1.0 clearly say in Koran 1.0 that: hey people, the 2 days of creating earth are included in the 4 days it took me (Allah 1.0) to fill it with mountains, and oceans, etc...?
Because if you Speak Arabic you can understand it without any problems, I sadi double check in the Tafssir cause i know you don`t speak Arabic,

2. The fact that your argument is based on tafssir, means that there are different points of view

NO there aren`t any different Views even the Jews and the christians agree on this one, apparently it`s only you....

3. This also means that different "Muslim 1.0 scholars" explain the 6 vs. 8 day creation cycle differently

NO , i said stop asuming so many times..., if you don`t have a proof stop assuming...

4. Now, ayah-9, clearly states that earth was created in 2 days. Do you agree with that?
why do i have to repeat my self

7. So if both creating earth and filling it took 4 days (as some but not all scholars try to explain), and from item 4 above, it took 4 - 2 = 2 days to FILL the earth with mountains, oceans, animals, human beings, etc...

Can you name one Just one scholar who Explained this differently??!!??

·

2:04 pm    November 18, 2003
Ali
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Dear Negotiator:

FYI:

Here are the links in Arabic to Surah
Fussilat, 41:9-12:

1. Ayah 9 and 10:

http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/10_59/41_6-10.htm

2. Ayah 11 and 12:

http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/10_59/41_11-14.htm

Jazakomo Allah 2.0 Khairan, Wassalam

·

12:44 pm    November 18, 2003
Lui
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Ali & Adnane,

I was able to get to the website when I read Ali's reply but then, i couldn't open the site since I read Adnane's reply!..this is strange!

Try to check it some other time if you are still interested :)

·

11:21 am    November 18, 2003
Ali
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continue...

9. So here is a hadeeth in Sahih Muslim (remember ain abi Huraira, ain abi Negotiator, ain abu Ali, ain, ain, ain, etc...):

(reference: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/039.smt.html#039.6707)

"Abu Huraira reported that Allah's Messenger (mpbuh) took hold of my hands and said: Allah the Exalted and Glorious, created the clay on Saturday and He created the mountains on Sunday and He created the trees on Monday and He created the things entailing labour on Tuesday and created light on Wednesday and He caused animals to spread on Thursday and created Adam (pbuh) after 'Asr on Friday; the last creation at the last hour of the hours of Friday, ie. between afternoon and night."

10. Based on this hadeeth, form Saturday to Friday there are seven days, and this hadeeth doesn't say that these are all the days of creation (no talk about the 2 days of creating heaven yet, this will make the total days 7 + 2 = 9 days)

11. So is the duration of creation at least seven days, maybe eight, maybe nine, or more. But it does disagree without reconciliation with the account of the six day creation.

12. Don't you think that may be prophet Mohammed (pbuh), who we know was illiterate, didn't know how to add the math of creation and what he told his sahaba?

13. What happened to Koran 1.0 is 100% correct and the fact that the Koran 1.0 was written in clear Arabic?

Jazakomo Allah 2.0 Khairan, Wassalam

·

11:19 am    November 18, 2003
Ali
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Dear Negotiator:

I quote you:

"These 4 days include the first 2 days , and you can go double check on the tafssir to see it very clear."

My answer:

1. Why didn't Allah 1.0 clearly say in Koran 1.0 that: hey people, the 2 days of creating earth are included in the 4 days it took me (Allah 1.0) to fill it with mountains, and oceans, etc...?

2. The fact that your argument is based on tafssir, means that there are different points of view

3. This also means that different "Muslim 1.0 scholars" explain the 6 vs. 8 day creation cycle differently

4. Now, ayah-9, clearly states that earth was created in 2 days. Do you agree with that?

5. The earth that isn't existing yet cannot be filled. right?

6. Ayah-10, clearly states that the earth was filled with mountains, trees, oceans, etc...in 4 days. Do you agree with that?

7. So if both creating earth and filling it took 4 days (as some but not all scholars try to explain), and from item 4 above, it took 4 - 2 = 2 days to FILL the earth with mountains, oceans, animals, human beings, etc...

8. Why is it not "CLEAR" in Koran 1.0 that: earth was created in 2 days. Earth was filled in 2 days. And heaven was created in 2


continued...

·

9:57 am    November 18, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
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Louie, It doesn't work for me either. I think that web site is serving on high ports (8***) and many companies block those ports.
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9:51 am    November 18, 2003
Lui
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Ali,

It is correct.

http://www.islam-guide.com/

·

9:40 am    November 18, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
370
To you every thing might look contradictory to each other, Because you try to see things differently.
There is absolutely no contradictions in there ,
It is clearly as you stated that Allah Created Heavens and Earth in 6 Days in sura 7:54...
surat fussillat doesn`t contradict what was said before why :
God said he created Earth in 2 days , Then he set the mountains standing firm... in 4 days, These 4 days include the first 2 days , and you can go double check on the tafssir to see it very clear. and then he created heavens in 2 other days, so that means 6.
This is why i say always not any Body can explain Quran or interpret it the way he/she wants.....

Look for something else...

·

8:49 am    November 18, 2003
Ali
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Dear Lui:

I am unable to access the web site
http://www.islam-guide.com/.

is the URL correct?

Jazakomo Allah 2.0 Khairan Wa ssalam

·

8:39 am    November 18, 2003
Ali
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367
continued...

4. This seems to me that math of 1500 years ago, did not make sense. Did Allah 1.0 created the universe, in six days, eight days, or the average seven days = (six + eight)/2?

5. This is a clear contradiction in Koran 1.0.

6. Don't you think that a reasonable person will conclude that Koran 1.0 is not 100% correct, or are we going to start justifying the meaning of what Allah 1.0 might have said?

Jazakomo Allah 2.0 Khairan, Wassalam

·

8:38 am    November 18, 2003
Ali
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Dear Negotiator:

Concerning the creation of the universe in six or seven, or eight days....

1. Sura 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, and 25:59 clearly say that God created "the heavens and the earth" in six days

2. However, the following seems very contradictory to item 1 above (This is Surah "Fussilat" 41:9-12, as translated by Yusuf Ali):

===>A. Ayah 9 : "Say: Is it that ye deny Him Who created the earth in TWO DAYS? And do ye join equals with Him? He is the Lord of (all) the Worlds."

===>B. Ayah 10: "He set on the (earth), mountains standing firm, high above it, and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measure therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in FOUR DAYS, in accordance with (the needs of) those who seek (Sustenance)."

===>C. Ayah 11: "Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth: "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly." They said: "We do come (together), in willing obedience.""

===>D. Ayah 12: "So He completed them as seven firmaments in TWO DAYS, and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command. And We adorned the lower heaven with lights, and (provided it) with guard. Such is the Decree of (Him) the Exalted in Might, Full of Knowledge."

3. As you can see, we have TWO days for the creation of the earth, then FOUR days to fill the earth with mountains, blessings and nourishment for all its inhabitants, and in the end TWO more days to create the seven heavens and create the stars in them. This adds up to 2+4+2 = 8 days in contradiction to the 6 days mentioned in the other verses.

continued...

·

7:38 am    November 18, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
366
And here is another one that is very helpful, to understand the wisdom behind what we do as muslims

http://www.amaneena.com/meracle.htm

·

9:48 pm    November 17, 2003
Lui
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Mr Ali,

The following web site contains some scientific facts about Islam. These facts are put together as little book. It touches some the subjects that we were discussing here. I thought of sharing it with you (as well as other raiootists). I hope that you will find some answers to your questions about Islam 1.0.

http://www.islam-guide.com

·

1:32 pm    November 17, 2003
Lui
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Ali?Ali?Ali?

As usual, you skip most questions and answer only what you like and what you can argue about. The only thing that you noticed in my last posting was the word ?bug?. I knew that you would like that word as it fits with your new doctrine of Islam 2.0.
[3. Example: prediction of Ahmed vs. Mohammed, inheritance for women, 4 wives for a man, Israa Wa Al miaraj, prophet Mohammed is the last prophet, sex, guys and lesbians, divorce, etc...]
How do you know that the above are bugs of Islam 1.0? If it doesn?t go with your logic, it doesn?t mean that it is a bug as your logic is not a reference. Also, who told you that the West is a reference for Islam? Doesn?t Western 1.0 have to be upgraded to Western 2.0 too? See, if we follow your logic, we will end up with many versions of the same thing. We will never agree on anything.

Using you Western references for a positive goal, it is time for us to unit not to divide to even smaller pieces. What you are pushing for just adds more divisions among Muslims that are already suffering from!

·

11:02 am    November 17, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
363
2. Remember that based on various postings you submitted, you seem to disagree about giving a woman the God given right to preach (Imama)

The GOd Given Right ???!!!??? awww where did you see that God gave women this Right??? not In Quran1.0 as you call it.....

·

10:59 am    November 17, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
362
You guys are funny, aww wach cheftouni bdit kanharress wnekhbe6 wella kandreb felbachar wella 7etta kan3ayer???

he said i was silly i said you need a stronger personnality, so who lost his temper?? i don`t see none...

6. Why did Allah rest on the 7th day (I thought the concept of resting means a person is running out of breath, therefore there is a limit to how much Allah 1.0 can work before he/she/it tires)
Answer:

Sub7an allah, you are talking just like The jews, because in Judaism they say that Allah created samawat sab3 walaradi sab3 in 6 days and that he got tired and rested on the seventh day , and that`s` why they rest on saturday, saturday is the 7th day of the week, they rest on it.
You know what God told them regarding this :
(wala9ad khala9na assamawati wal2ardi wama baynahouma fi sittati ayyamin wa ma MASSANA MIN LOUGHOUB)
So this ayah tells us that God created the seven skies and seven earths and what is between them in 6 days, and he didn`t get tired, ma massana men loughoub , means he didn`t get tired from that....,
So to answer your question why did God rest on the seventh Day, i`ll tell you first how do you know that? from the Quran ? NO the quran didn`t say that!!!??? from the Torah ? probably.....,


·

10:17 am    November 17, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
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Ali, you probably realized by now that you keep repeating your ideas. That's fine, especially that almost everyone got your idea that islam needs an upgrade. However, you have totally ignored and neglected that if people improve themselves and their understanding of Islam, many failures that appeared out of misunderstanding Islam will vanish.

Ali, the best that people can do is append their country's consitution and legal laws to specify what people should and should not do.

·

10:10 am    November 17, 2003
Ali
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Dear Negotiator:

1. Take it easy my friend, we are just expressing opinions here!

2. Remember that based on various postings you submitted, you seem to disagree about giving a woman the God given right to preach (Imama)

3, You do not see the National Organization of Women coming after you for believing what you believe. Like adnane said, this is a debate. Present your arguments. I present mine.

4. Another thing that is interesting to note is: Even if both of us consider ourselves Muslims (you are Muslim 1.0 and I am Muslim 2.0), doesn't mean that we think the same way about different aspects of the Koran and Hadeeths.

5. This difference in thinking is at the heart of why a lot of Muslims prefer to live under a secular regime in order not to impose one view of Islam against another view of Islam

6. Think about it, a lot of Hard core Muslims, think that Shariaa is the answer to everything. My opinion is that Shariaa is very incompatible with the 21st century realities (in other words, the Shariaa laws are obsolete)

7. What I just said are not insults. These are different points of views. I hope Islam 1.0 allows a person to express themselves. I know that Islam 2.0 will give you that freedom.

Jazakomo Allah 2.0 Khairan, Wa ssalam

·

9:30 am    November 17, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
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357
Negotiator, my point is that it will be good for the discussion to target ideas, not personality traits and characteristics of the people debating (you, Ali, Lui, MB, Antr..). If Ali chooses to be controvertial and call Islam and all of its components and leaders silly, he is throwing an idea at those in the debate. It could be a silly idea in itself (I find it naive), but up to you to confront it. As you confront it you might want to know more about Ali, his other beliefs, some other opinions so that you get a better glimse of his perspective.. that if you're really interested in the discussion. Myself, I don't know where this discussion is going, I got saturated at some point, and couldn't learn something new. No offense, but this topic needs a serious twist.

Negotiator, if I were to censor Ali, Lui or you, just because someone calls something dear to me silly, this won't be an enjoyable debate. What I can censor is extremely out-of-the-subject posts, foul posts, posts that encourage terrorism either against Raioo or against what's not Raioo. What I let into the golden world of Raioo are debates of good ideas, debates of peace, problem solving and genuinity. Posts that our grand grand children will read one day when we're nomore in this world. I hope Raioo lives until then.

·

8:56 am    November 17, 2003
Ali
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354
Dear adnane:

1. The Strings theory of creation is very interesting

2. Since scientists have a THEORY (not 100% proven yet), it's not possible to justify the accuracy of Koran 1.0 and Islam 1.0 based on a theory, since in Islam 1.0, the Koran 1.0 is the 100% answer to creation, life, etc....

3. Now that scientists are moving from the Big Bang theory, to the Strings theory, it's clear to me that they are trying to understand who created what and when.

4. If I understand this correctly, Allah 1.0 created the heavens and the earth in six days and rested in the seventh. Doesn't this seem very iffy.

5. If Allah 1.0 is too powerful, why did it take 6 days to create the world? (Allah 1.0 could have invoked the command : "Kon Fa Yakoun")

6. Why did Allah rest on the 7th day (I thought the concept of resting means a person is running out of breath, therefore there is a limit to how much Allah 1.0 can work before he/she/it tires)

7. The creation theory in Koran 1.0, matches what the Bible and Torah are saying on this subject. Why is the Koran 1.0 more important or better than the other holy books?

8. This is for the benefit of the forum participants: In Koran 1.0, what was the creation sequence of the following: Sun, Earth, Moon, Humans?

Jazakomo Allah 2.0 Khairan, Wa ssalam

·

8:55 am    November 17, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
357
Adnane,
why do you think i`m not taking it easy??? you see that it is not fair to criticize one`s personnalities so why didn`t you say so before!!??? !!!!
I don`t lose my temper on a discussion like this, take a look at few things that Ali said that criticize the whole Muslims who follows the Quran and Hadeets, and say that they are silly..., so be fair as well, if one has some ghira 3la ddin dialou he wouldn`t shut up when somebody says that the prophet was silly
these are just few examples he said more :

3. Angels, Prophets, Manuals (Koran 1.0, Bible 1.0, Torah 1.0, etc...), these are fairy tales and silly things to make the Allah concept interesting.
15. Doesn't Allah has anything else better to do than laugh at humans (that he/she/it created) while they are butchering each other every day.
9. This means that Allah must be sued in a human court of law for liability.
E. Do you see the logic Negotiator? Very simple steps to solve a very simple issue. No complexities. No Hadeeths. No Koran verses. No Ain Abi Horayra, Ain Abi Negotiator Ain Abu Ali, Ain???.Ain.etc.etc.etc.etc?..
I know, there is a hadeeth told by some dude, some 1500 years ago: Ain Abi Horaira, Ain Abi sobaiha, Ain Negotiator, Ain Lui, Ain,Ain,Ain.....Ain Said: You eat with your left hand you are Going to HELL.
7. Having said the above items, Being a Muslim is NOT about believing 100% in the Koran and Ahadeeths. These are just silly things to argue about.
9. Islam is not submitting to the Koran, the Ahadeeth, the Sunnis, the Chiaa...These are silly items that are man made to justify the impossible

·

8:25 am    November 17, 2003
Ali
356
355
continued...

8. If you look at sex, in most countries, it's looked at as a fact of life, in Muslim countries you will be tortured for having sex outside of marriage!

9. The problem with Islam 1.0, is that if you change Koran 1.0 (i.e., fix the bugs), this is a big NO NO.

10. The only logical move is to upgrade to a different religion (Islam 2.0), while keeping some of the old things about Islam 1.0 (i.e., new ways of helping each other, being compassionate, etc...)

Jazakomo Allah 2.0 Khairan, Wa ssalam

·

8:25 am    November 17, 2003
Ali
355
350
Dear Lui:

I qoute you:

"Most people will have some doubts about their believes in one time or another. This is part of the human nature. We tend to ask questions about everything. This is a good way to gain the knowledge. However, coming up with a completely new believe is not the solution in my opinion. We usually try to fix bugs in programs before even considering the case of throwing them away. "

My answer:

1. The problem with Islam 1.0 is that it has a baggage of things that are really obsolete for the 21st century

2. Like you said, we need to fix the bugs in programs before throwing them away, some of these bugs are actually part of Koran 1.0

3. Example: prediction of Ahmed vs. Mohammed, inheritance for women, 4 wives for a man, Israa Wa Al miaraj, prophet Mohammed is the last prophet, sex, guys and lesbians, divorce, etc...

4. Another thing I do not like about Islam 1.0, is that we tend to label everybody who is not a Muslim as a Kafir (going to HELL!).

5. I totally disagree with the way Koran 1.0 and the millions of Hadeeths deal with this problem (I do believe that even if you are not a Muslim, if there is a Heaven out there, it will have non Muslims, Hindus, Christians, Jews, etc...).

6. I personally tend to look at peoples actions (how they treat each other, how they deal with human issues, etc...)

7. If you look at the western nations, they are more helpful and more compassionate towards other people (take the example of guys and lesbians in the West. They tend to protect these groups even if the majority of westerners believe it's a sin in Christianity). Try to come out as a lesbian or guy in a Muslim country and see what happens (sure death!!!)


continued...

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11:44 am    November 16, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
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353
Ali, thanks for the informational link. It shows that the information in the Quran matches to some extent the theory of Big Bang, but it doesn't say the opposite. I thought you said Big Bang is a no no in Islam.

At any rate, check out the Strings theory, which aims to understand what could have happened BEFORE the Big Bang. Scientists who follow the Big Bang theory only have calculation starting a few sconds after the Big Bang but no assumptions before that.

Strings theory suggests that the universe is actually a bunch of slices (think of a loaf of bread slices..) and the universe we know where our galaxy "the Milky Way" lives is one of those slices, they call Membrane. The theory says that the only communication between these membranes is gravitons, which are assumed particles of the gravitational force. These membranes are elastic and could collide one day in a specific point.. or many times. and one of those collision could have the start of the Big Bang.

These membranes led me immediately to think of what God says in the Quran about "Samnawat Sab7" the seven skies.. I thought, could that really be the membranes String theory talks about.. and could they be indeed seven ?

·

10:59 am    November 16, 2003
Ali
353
352
Dear adnane:

1. here's a link about the big bang and Islam:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/ww2/A899067

2. I think that Negotiator will not like what he will read there. Again, Islam 1.0 has a lot to explain! (I still stand by my earlier assertion that Koran 1.0 is not 100% correct. And by logic, Islam 1.0 is also not 100% correct)

Jazakomo Allah 2.0 Khairan, Wa ssalam

·

8:13 pm    November 15, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
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Ali, I don't see why the therory of big bang is a no no in Islam. Could be one of the works of God, no?
·

7:34 pm    November 15, 2003
Ali
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Dear Negotiator:

1. adnane has already reminded you to stay cool. This is only a debate. You express yourself. I express mine.

2. As part of my Islam 2.0 features, I forgive you my Negotiator for loosing your temper. It?s OK. We all have our bad days (It?s Ramadan after all!)

3. Now, back to the main issues, I defined Allah 2.0 as the ?something or somebody who created the earth, moon, humanity, etc??

4. You said that I do not have a proof, because we could have been created by a BIG Explosion.

5. Your assumption using the BIG Explosion theory (BIG BANG theory) is a big NO NO in Islam 1.0, because Allah 1.0 is supposed to be the creator of Adam and Eve, and of course the rest of humanity.

6. If you want to use the BIG Explosion theory in your argument, it's reasonable to assume that you do not believe 100% in Allah 1.0. This means that your beliefs in Islam 1.0 might not be 100% true.

7. You are accusing me of not standing by what I believe in. I do not understand what you mean? I do believe in my heart in the Allah 2.0 definition.

8. Can you tell me what is wrong with my definition of Allah 2.0?

9. What is your definition of Allah 1.0?

Jazakomo Allah 2.0 Khairan, Wa ssalam

·

1:03 pm    November 15, 2003
Lui
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347
Ali 1.0,

Thank you for responding although you did not answer any questions that I posted. It is too late to go back to them now, as the subject was then Koran 2.0 and became everything 2.0! Your goal in the first place was not to argue about Koran, but actually to come up with religion 2.0. As a suggestion, wouldn?t be easier for you to go to Ali 2.0 and understand better religion 1.0 rather than the other way around?

In most of your posts you are looking for 100 % proofs as if we know all the knowledge that is out there and the only missing part is to prove it! Few things have 100% prove to them especially if you consider the spiritual world (religion, emotion, tastes, etc?). It will be interesting if you can prove to me that everything out there can be 100% proved.

Most people will have some doubts about their believes in one time or another. This is part of the human nature. We tend to ask questions about everything. This is a good way to gain the knowledge. However, coming up with a completely new believe is not the solution in my opinion. We usually try to fix bugs in programs before even considering the case of throwing them away.

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12:30 pm    November 15, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
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Negotiator, take it easy buddy. Let's not go as far as criticising people's personalities. It's not quiet fair especially in this virtual debate. You can criticise the ideas, the arguments as you wish. A debate's main intention is to expose arguments, not take things personally.

Just a friendly Raioo Chawesh reminder.

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12:25 pm    November 15, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
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I feel sorry for you buddy...
First you were saying we, we, we, islam2.0 ,allah2.0......, Now you are saying it`s only your own religion..., God knows what else you`ll be saying next....

You need to read carefully, and stop assuming things, cause assuptions are not facts, you said that now i odn`t believe in Allah, and that i have doubts.. and all what you said, because i said what if there was a big explosion...,

you need to learn (3ilm alkalam) when i said what if the scientists are right ... that doesnt tell you that i do believe them alhamdou lillah I believe IN Allah la ilaha Illa houa, and tha Mohamamd is the LAST messenger of Allah.....

your arguments are weak...., you don`t stand to what you say ....., you can`t defend and Idea if you don`t believe in it completly...., you need a stronger personnality ....

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8:38 am    November 15, 2003
Ali
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Dear Negotiator:

I quote you:

?The moon Earth and Sun and Us isn`t a proof that Allah 2.0 Exists, why? because simply we can be created by an Explosion like the scientists said, probably there was a BIG Explosion that created the whole thing..., so To think that a power is behind our creation is not a valid proof....,?

My answer:

1. If you believe that humans were created by a BIG Explosion, then your concept of Allah 1.0 is not valid anymore

2. This means that you have doubts about Allah 1.0 and therefore, you are not 100% sure about who created humans 1.0

3. Maybe this mean that your faith is not 100% solid as you might have thought (it?s normal to question ones faith)

4. Do not worry my friend, it?s OK to question Islam 1.0. There are a lot of iffy things in it.

5. Do not feel bad if the logic in Islam 1.0 is complex, you are not alone in this!

6. I went through the same thought process and I realized that Muslims 1.0 are really arguing about nothing (i.e., Islam 1.0 is the best religion, Mohammed (pbuh) is the last prophet, etc,etc?)

7. That?s why I created my own religion Islam 2.0 (remember, it?s my own personal religion, it is not made for the whole world, it?s not the last religion, it?s not the first religion, etc?)

8. Again, my definition of Allah 2.0 is : ?Something or somebody created the earth, moon, humanity, etc??. If a BIG Explosion created humans, then who every caused that BIG Explosion is Allah 2.0 (the something in my Allah 2.0 definition)

Jazakomo Allah 2.0 Khairan, Wa ssalam

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4:30 pm    November 14, 2003
Iceman
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When this Ramadan is going to end?? It's such a nighmare dealing whith people who fast. What they think the whole world has to change just so you can do your ramadan.
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2:55 pm    November 14, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
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3ammi,
I learned from this Life that nothing is for granted......, so i wouldn`t be surprised.....

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2:50 pm    November 14, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
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1. If you have been following my postings, in Islam 2.0 I define Allah 2.0 as follows:

" Somebody or something created the earth, the moon, humanity, etc..."

2. That is my Allah 2.0. I do not think you can argue with that at all (give it a shot!)


Why can`t I ??
If al3elmaneyeen argued with it i can do the same thing...

The moon Earth and Sun and Us isn`t a proof that Allah 2.0 Exists, why? because simply we can be created by an Explosion like the scientists said, probably there was a BIG Explosion that created the whole thing..., so To think that a power is behind our creation is not a valid proof....,


F. When you die, Allah 2.0 will welcome you in Heaven 2.0 (sorry, no Hell 2.0 is open for business)

5. You see how simple religion is!


He He He,
you call this Religion?? so now you are not only telling us how to live you are telling us how Allah 2.0 will welcome us , and how he will not have Hell ....

wakhrej 3leek remdan aweldi...

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2:46 pm    November 14, 2003

Antr McShaddad (Yahia.L) message
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Ana In your Place i will say Allah a3lam.....
yemken dak lasflat tew9a3 liih chi 7aja.....

-No, No, Nego...please don't switch to the "Matrix mode" again...

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2:42 pm    November 14, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
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Ana In your Place i will say Allah a3lam.....
yemken dak lasflat tew9a3 liih chi 7aja.....

b7al hadak lli bghaw ychen9ouh, there is no way he can escape, but still something happened l9enbba t9e63at, wseyyed ma match.....

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2:17 pm    November 14, 2003
Ali
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Dear adnane:

1. I do not know if Allah 2.0 is doing another project somewhere else (it will be fun to experiment with another project similar to the human one)

2. I do not know what you mean by sustaining/destroying (do you mean maintaining earth, humans, etc..., can you elaborate a little bit on that!, thanks)

3. I do not know why Allah 2.0 created earth, the moon, humanity, etc...(if anybody knows, let this forum know)

4. As I stated in my previous posting, just do good things that you like done to you (help others, love others, care for others, etc...)

5. Allah 2.0 gave all of us a brain and also created earth, the moon, etc...These things are challenging, let's study them, let's design rockets to go to the moon, etc...

6. Allah 2.0, created us human beings, let's study our bodies and how it works, it's challenging, yet it's fun

7. Hey! since Allah 2.0 created humans 2.0, let humans 2.0 create cloning technology so that we can create humans 3.0

8. Think about it: when the technology advances enough, I have no doubt in my mind that there will be a time where a human being 2.0 will go to wal-mart or k-mart and buy a human "SPERM", "EGG", "fetus Vitamins and formula" and an incubator, go home, and create a human being 3.0.

9. As we can see right now, with DNA and cloning technology, we are able to do amazing things.

10. The only human beings who oppose cloning, are the fundamentalist religious people (Catholics, Islamists, and others)

11. They oppose it because they know that their concept of GOD or ALLAH will not be valid anymore. Because humans now can create themselves.

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan, wa ssalam

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1:29 pm    November 14, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
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Ali, I think your redefinition of God is a little incomplete:

" Somebody or something created the earth, the moon, humanity, etc..."

This statement says that God is merely the creator. It suggests that God created all those things and could go on to another totally different project, and leave his first product run subject to his logic which should not fail because it is an absolute perfect logic. Your statement doesn't suggest that God is a sustainer, which is intereting, I'd love to know why you didn't mention that. More than that, your statement doesn't suggest that God is the destroyer of his product, again i'd love to hear why you didn't mention that :)

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1:17 pm    November 14, 2003
Ali
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Dear Negotiator:

You said:

"Yeah there is no Proof that 3ura2eel exists, so how come you believe that Allah1.0 and Allah 2.0 exists???"

1. If you have been following my postings, in Islam 2.0 I define Allah 2.0 as follows:

" Somebody or something created the earth, the moon, humanity, etc..."

2. That is my Allah 2.0. I do not think you can argue with that at all (give it a shot!)

3. Angels, Prophets, Manuals (Koran 1.0, Bible 1.0, Torah 1.0, etc...), these are fairy tales and silly things to make the Allah concept interesting.

4. So, in Islam 2.0, there's no belief in angels and prophets, All you have to do is:

A. Affirm that "There's no Allah but Allah 2.0"

B. Be a good human being.

C. Help others

D. Pick at least one day in the year and fast from sunset to sunrise (you are allowed to drink water)

E. Once a year give at least $1 to poor people

F. When you die, Allah 2.0 will welcome you in Heaven 2.0 (sorry, no Hell 2.0 is open for business)

5. You see how simple religion is!

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan, wa ssalam

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12:41 pm    November 14, 2003

Antr McShaddad (Yahia.L) message
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Hey Nego, :)

Still a woman falling from the 6th floor streat on her head on the asphalt without being wraped by an airbag, would never ever stand up and walk back home , by no means...!

So, dont get me wrong...;)

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12:33 pm    November 14, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
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ddour ddour wterja3 l magdour...
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12:29 pm    November 14, 2003

abdelilah message
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I agree with you Antr in all what you said. And the idea of the middle that you prefer is actually a hadith of the prophet Muhammad PBUH who said "khairu al umuri awsatuhaa".
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12:10 pm    November 14, 2003

Antr McShaddad (Yahia.L) message
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"Cartesian mind is damaging to your health Ali. "

That is partly true...and so is the none cartesian mind. ;)

We want to believe that nature is uniform, yet Quantic mechanics does "contradict" newtonian physics, while they are both right .
There is something missing between the two. that is why there is not clear cut explanation that would merge both "contradicting" truths.

(a light wave has a dualastic nature,
it can be either particle (photon) or energy.
An atom is virtually made of emptiness :
if the nucleus would be an orange, the electron would be gravitating around it 7 miles away...
yet, we call this is a solid table , this is gas and this is liquid etc...

I suppose the same thing applies to the validity of what we know (according to what we perceive) vrs what we believe in ...
It is hard to remain in the mid-field, but so far, that seem to be the best place to be, otherways contradictions will hit you from both sides.
Apparently the the "Black and White" or cartesian way of raisoning is not accurate all the time after all...

Personally, I believe that there is much more to all of this... It is just the tip of the Iceberg .


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12:00 pm    November 14, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
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Yeah there is no Proof that 3ura2eel exists, so how come you believe that Allah1.0 and Allah 2.0 exists???

You don`t want to belive in the existance of Angels, fine but you believe in the existance of Allah1 and 2???
and by the way how many Allahs there are there????

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11:21 am    November 14, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
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There is no proof that angel of death 3azrin exists, as a matter of fact, there is no proof that angels exist. Humans tend to believe things when they see them. But since I believe in God and all the interesting stories of the past prophets etc, I find myself believing in this amazing system of God's creatures - back to fairy tale concept :). I believe in teh angel of death who will finish me one day, just as I believe in me, the creator of a program which sends a command frame (think of it as angel of death 3azrin) towards a disk drive in a computer system to knock it dead, and power if off. No human eye can see that command frame I sent, because it's in the form of light that travels through fibre optic cable, and only the poor disk drive wil understand once he gets it that he is about to be expired by the master, myself. Sometimes I use God's model in my programs and it works nicely :) thanks God for the inspirations.
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11:02 am    November 14, 2003

abdelilah message
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Even in Statistics, they teach you that perfect correlations are rare, and there is always a probability of alternative outcomes. This idea Ali that you have to have the proof '100%" that something exists is a lie of the liberal paradigm. Even in modern economics, people talk about economics of uncertainty, as well as in new strings of physics. Do you know that a girl loves you100%?
plus, faith increases your yakeen and certainty increases. Cartesian mind is damaging to your health Ali.
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10:13 am    November 14, 2003
Ali
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Dear Negotiator:

"One question, can you tell the Angle of Death when he comes to take your soul, no wait now it's me controling my destiny, so you can`t take my life? Can you? if you can then you don`t need God, if you can`t then Remember that you will die and you will meet God one day...
"

1. You are assuming that the Angel of death exist. How do you know that (100% proof!)?

2. When I die, I don't know who I will meet. How do you know that Negotiator (again, 100% proof)?

Now here's a scenario to think about: if I die and I do meet Angel of Death 2.0, who will take me to meet Allah 2.0 I will say this to Allah 2.0:

1. I have lived a life admiring what you created

2. You only gave me a limited brain to imagine who you are

3. I did my best to help myself and others

4. I did my best to minimize offending people, while asking questions that every human being needs to know

5. Allah 2.0, why did Allah 1.0 created Humans 1.0 and Islam 1.0, and Christianity 1.0, etc...without giving humans 1.0 the necessary 100% proof about what these religions mean?

6. Allah 2.0, why didn't Allah 1.0 stop the massacres and wars that humans 1.0 were doing to each other, Allah 1.0 wasn't nice was he?

7. Allah 2.0, thank you for giving me the opportunity to start with Islam 1.0 and upgrade to Islam 2.0

8. Allah 2.0, where's Negotiator 1.0? I would like to meet him and see if he is in Heaven 1.0 or Hell 1.0? (just kidding, Ramadan is tough!)

9. Allah 2.0, can we upgrade Negotiator 1.0 to Negotiator 2.0? (just kidding, Ramadan is tough!)


Jazakomo Allaho Khairan Wa ssalam

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10:10 am    November 14, 2003

Antr McShaddad (Yahia.L) message
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that is exactly my point !

And, and by extension, a woman who falls head first without helmet , from the 6 floor and lands on the asphalt, has no chance to stand up and walk home .
the same thing goes for millions of other exemples you can think of...

There is no hidden mystery there...


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10:03 am    November 14, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
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Antr ,
I`m not selective in my answers, it is just because we can go on and on , on that, i can say that every body who is 70 years old now will die before the year 2070..., or say that ethipia will not win teh world cup in 2006, or , or, or
so if we know these things, does it make us kan3elmou alghayb???

ramadan ending before december is not a prediction a sa7bi aww, we all know for a fact that ramadan is at the most 30 days , so it is gonna end before december, unless t9oum l9eyyama before that, then la ramadan will end la december will end...

regarding costa rica, well these are predictions and yes there is some kind of statistics , america is the most powerful country , costa rica 3la 9add l7al , yeah yla mchaw l 7arb , of course america will win, but still it is still prediction, how do we know that costa rica ykoun 3andhoum chi 7aja ma3arfinhach???
wella yji chi virus(science) yekhrouj 3la merican, ywelli y9etlou ba3deyathoum( the famous friendly fire) .......
aweddi rah kayen bezzaf maytgallll
Allah yester wsafi..

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9:53 am    November 14, 2003

Antr McShaddad (Yahia.L) message
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Correcting :

I mean to say, that a prediction in the traditional sense, does not need to give a scientific demonstration or evidence.
It remains in the realm of what ever you prefere to call it...

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9:49 am    November 14, 2003

Antr McShaddad (Yahia.L) message
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You are selectif in your unswers to the questions....
How about Ramadan ending before december ? (:/ and the Costa Rica vrs USA war ?

I did correct my predicting concerning your death to 2139. and you cann't argue that
it will happen.

The word Prediction is replaced by "forcasting" wich is based on scientific observation, so that poeple would not look at it as charlatanism... But, a Prediction in the traditional sense, does need a scientific demostration as you claim...
it is in the realm of the "paranormal".

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9:34 am    November 14, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
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Antr,
Regarding my age that is not prediction, that is guessing, prediction is when you give scientific proof..., I might actually live until 2073 , i will only be 93 years old...., that is not bad, see you made a mistake.., and that`s the key word, mistakes people can make mistakes...
so their predictions might be worng sometimes.....

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9:30 am    November 14, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
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Mr Islam2.0, and Allah2.0 and Quran 2.0,

you started with Islam2.0 , then Quran 2.0 and now it`s Allah 2.0,
nta kha6iiir,

One question, can you tell the Angle of Death when he comes to take your soul, no wait now it`s me controling my destiny, so you can`t take my life? Can you? if you can then you don`t need God, if you can`t then Remember that you will die and you will meet God one day...

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9:18 am    November 14, 2003

Antr McShaddad (Yahia.L) message
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I am correctin my first t prediction .
-You will die before the year 2139 .

(>:p

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9:15 am    November 14, 2003

Antr McShaddad (Yahia.L) message
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"You didn`t get your Birth certificat because you didn`t work for it, don`t blame 9ada2 or God, or say well l9ada2 that`s why i didn`t get it, if we think that way, every body should sit home and wait for his 9ada2."

-Thank you Nego, I am glad that we agree on that . :)
there is no room for "But" "But and But..:)

-As for the prediction assue (I am picking on you today :)
I can make 100% accurate predictions, you cann't argue with.


-You will die before the year 2073
-the full moon will appear before december .
-If a FULL scale war take place between the US and Costa Rica. Costa Rica will lose the war.
Again, there is no room for "BUTs" in here...

;)


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8:59 am    November 14, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
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Antr,
It seems to me like you are not reading carefully my posts, Again did i Ever limit my self to sit back and think only it is 9adar?? did say that you can`t do any thing about it? i always said you have to work for it, you can`t sit back and wait for the 9adar, Don`t accept what others do to you, Allah said ( la youghayerrou allahou mabi9awmin 7atta youghayerrou ma bi2anfoussihim) so if you sit back nothing will change...,

You didn`t get your Birth certificat because you didn`t work for it, don`t blame 9ada2 or God, or say well l9ada2 that`s why i didn`t get it, if we think that way, every body should sit home and wait for his 9ada2..., and that is where we ra7mat Allah, we don`t know alghayb wich is good, so people won`t stop having hopes, why do people keep going to school (in morocco) can you imagine if every body know his future how we will be? one will know that he won`t get a job , if some one knows that he will die on the 12th of the next month, he will die from stress and depression before the 12th..,

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8:58 am    November 14, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
321
Antr,

I said it might be a Test, and didn`t say it is diffinetly a Test....
What do you think? how do you explain that.., I agree yes God (wouldn`t say get angry) doesn`t Like to see any one killing any body without a reason, and I agree yes he can stop that if he wants, because it`s him who designed that destiny.
It is very difficult to explain that, so If you Have a Good amount of Iman, that might Help.., i wish i have that too, cause me too i question it very often, But i just remind my self that we ( we are mussayyarine f oumour ghaybeyyah, and moukhayareen f oumourr dounyaweyyah....
I didn`t say that we should believe our Misery is a test and sit back, why do you keep assuming things like this.!!??
If somebody kicks my butt, you don`t see the Test there, but other people might see a test, how, ok God told us to try to keep our Anger, he told us if somebody kicks your butt, you can kick his butt to defending your self, BUT he told us as well if we forgive him it is better for us, so that is a Test if you look at it like that, God is looking to test your anger.

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8:35 am    November 14, 2003
Ali
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continued...

C. Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) said (I hope he actually said it because he is the closest thing to Allah 1.0): "Mann Raaa Minkom MONKAR falyoghairho beyyadehe, faIn lam yastattee, etc...) (If you see something wrong, change it with your hand, or your voice, or your heart, etc ).

D. We, humans, know that we are screwed up with all of these wars since the beginning of time, we know that nothing has changed so far (2003, war in Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine, Saudia, USA, Africa, etc...). We know that we have been praying to Allah 1.0 (this includes Jews and Christians as well) for a long long time.

E. From Allah 1.0 point of view, this is a "MONKAR". Why isn't Allah 1.0 intervening in the human experiment He/She/It created in the first place. Allah 1.0 must be either deaf or he screwed up the human experiment so bad, that He/She/It is unable to control it anymore! Therefore, we human beings are left on our own to solve our problems (i.e., Allah chickened on us). Does this mean we should say, hey! Allah 1.0 bailed on us, why the Hell pray to Him/Her/It? let's just create a universal religion Islam 2.0 and live by it and control our own destiny, regardless of the existence of Allah 1.0?

F. We know that Koran 1.0 states "We made you into different tribes so that you know each other and love each other, etc...". Was this a mistake?

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

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8:34 am    November 14, 2003
Ali
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Dear adnane:

1.In one of my earlier postings, I defined Allah 2.0 in Islam 2.0 as that thing/person who created the earth, moon, humanity, etc.

2. I do believe in the existence of Allah according to item 1 above.

3. I like your analogies with the engineering and software concepts (they make me laugh! good Ramadan humor! Thanks!)

I quote:
"Ali, I believe God's message is highly abstract, it's not very specific. If it were specific, it would have applied to only a specific era and people"

1. To me the above statement means that Allah 1.0 keeps upgrading the "soul and belief software" periodically.

2. Are human beings guinea pigs being used for some type of "out of this world experiment"?

3. We keep describing Allah 1.0 with 99 names, Rahman and Raheem, etc...where in the world do you see these two attributes apply, when humanity (that He/She/It created) is butchering itself since the beginning of time?

4. adnane, from the postings you submitted before, you seem to be in the field of electrical or computer engineering, you must use logic and reasoning in your day to day designs and implementations. So here are some questions and observations I would like a different perspective on:

A. Since Allah 1.0 is all knowing and all powerful, why does he continue to let humanity suffer?

B. Why did he allow the creation of too many programs with contradictory messages (Torah, Bible, Koran)? And now, because of that, these 3 religions are causing a lot of wars and misery in this world?

continued....

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7:53 pm    November 13, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
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No it was actually a woman, who jumped escaping from her Husband, who was a criminal and teh Police were after him , he had a Knife she saw him and jumped from the window fell and run away,
I didn`t see it with my eys but my class mate lives in the neighbour he said he saw her, and it was a big incident that every body knew about ....

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7:15 pm    November 13, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
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Ali, like Antr I also believe that God is perfect. I almost have a feeling Ali that you don't even believe in God. If you don't we may not come to agreement on many things any time soon :) khass'ha shi taqsssira dyel atai Msha777ar m3a Na3na3.

Ali, I believe God's message is highly abstract, it's not very specific. If it were specific, it would have applied to only a specific era and people. I'm not sure if you're familiar with the concept of abstract classes in OO programming, but his message is like that. He defines the logical boundaries, sometimes allows virtual boundaries. He throws in private data here and there which could be used 2000 years later. He allows for future implementations to scale, expand, without changing the concept of operations of the system, but rather improve the throughput, performance, usability of the result of operations.

I think of it as this. God created us with the feature of DNA. Imagine if someone long time ago thought that DNA has no use whatsoever and that he wants to get rid of it forever. He goes and removes DNA, somehow - don't ask me how.. - and from then on humans have no DNA. Nowadays, most crimes, pregnancy cases, rape cases, are resolved by DNA tests to identify criminals and provide a fair and quick justice.

Somethings in our religion may seem like extra baggage Ali.. things we don't understand why the heck we're doing it. But if we get rid of it, 1000 years from now, when there is need for those things, people will blame us maybe for their misery, whatever that misery will be.

Wassalam.

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3:49 pm    November 13, 2003

Antr McShaddad (Yahia.L) message
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Ouch* I understand your raisoning, but..
Go easy on God, man !
You never know what he is trying to tell the humans...
In this univers, we are like an atom attached to the body of a dinosaur, trying to figure out where is our location...
God is perfect, it is the interpretations of the text wich doesnt seem to fit into the man made logic.


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3:24 pm    November 13, 2003

Antr McShaddad (Yahia.L) message
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Nego,

You havent unswered to my Main question. I know you cann't , I am just teasing your intellect. ;)

1- The killing of the poor little innocent Palestinian kid by the israeli sniper does make God angry. (ghadab)
You can not argue with that, because God gets angry watching seing such a horrible and act .

2-Acoording to you the killing of the Palestinian kid (and millions of other kids) is a test ...
-My question is : Why should the horrible act n.1 make God upset if he did design it and made it happen ?

The contradiction is clear right there, unless you want to use some unkown logic to the humans :)

So, the only out is : God does not want that poor innocent Palestinian (Iraqi etc ) kid to be killed by the sniper. but the sniper did kill him, wich explains God's anger . (Anger issue resolved)

And...
That does give us the possiblity to retaliate (Go after the sniper) .
Organize ourselves, build up a strong army and fight him back , instead of believing that our misery is a test .
If somebody kicks your butt, there is no test there :) you have to take some martial arts course and kick his butt back. :)


The only card you have lest is "what about , "Imano bil 9adari khairihi wa sharihi". Misunderstanding such a dogma would destroy all the logic explained above,
and persuades us to sit on our butt
and accept what ever others do to us.
"Oh, well I didnt get my birth certificate because God didnt want that to happen"
instead of complaining to 9aid mountaz , or "pull" somebody from his moutashe to do his job...or... give him 9ahwa, as you suggested . although personally, I wouldnt suggest that....

So, I tend to put the dogma above in a the "Quarantine of the unsolved mysteries"" and move on ... otherways, it would interfere with my logic and there for my acts.

No offense, but please avoid contradictions...
You cannt tell me that mou9ata3a in Morocco works that way because God wants it to be that way (test or what ever), AND YET, you tell me "Oh, No...God didnt tell you that you should not change the way the Moroccan Mou9ata3a works !" Because that does not make sense to me....and I wonder if it makes sense to you... :/

I always admire the "Mo3tazila" and some of the way they explain things.
they say that is the "scriptures contradict the common sense , then the priority remains to the common sense"
My personal quote is :
"If the scripture contradicts the common sense, then the scripture has been misunderstood"
and there is no way around that, otherways, I rather believe that a circle
has 4 corners...

;)

·

3:05 pm    November 13, 2003
sanita
314
don't blame him for what humans are doing to themselves...we have brains don't we? If we want peace we should CREATE it and now expect him to do the job for us...
·

3:04 pm    November 13, 2003

Antr McShaddad (Yahia.L) message
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304
>>I can garanty you, that if there was asphalt instead of the grass, I can safely predict with 100% acuuracy that she would not rise up anymore.

>I cannot guarantee you that, because some body jumped from the 5th floor and run away...,

-Who was that Spiderman or the incredible Hulk ?

·

2:19 pm    November 13, 2003
Ali
312
311
continued...

13. Allah created the human being as an experiment and he/her/it should be sorry for what he/her/it did. Too much pain. Too many wars (that Allah can intervene and stop once for all)

14. Based on the above steps, what a BAD TEST Allah is doing to humanity.

15. Doesn't Allah has anything else better to do than laugh at humans (that he/she/it created) while they are butchering each other every day.

16. Why do we need to say thinks to somebody who is letting us (humans) hurt each other? that's evil!

17.Negotiator, if you were Allah, what will you do to solve the above problems with ONE ACTION that will take effect instantly (remember, as Allah you have all the power you need)?

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan Wa ssalam

·

2:18 pm    November 13, 2003
Ali
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305
Dear Negotiator:

You said:

"And this some kind of a test , bach ychouf chkoun ye7med allah 3la kull 7al wechkoun lli radi yekfer...
We should all think that if something bad happens it isn't because we deserve it, it might that , and it might not be, so always think that if god closes this door he opens many other doors... reply
"

My answer:

1. Allah created humanity.

2. Allah is all powerful and can change anything just like that.

3. Allah knows the future.

4. Allah created Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

5. There is now fighting and killing among all of the religions from item 4 above.

6. Human beings are being killed. Children are being orphaned because of the fighting of what happened in item 4 above

7. Since Allah knows the future, and Allah created humans, and religions, and now there is killing, it seems to me that Allah screwed up.

8. This also means that Allah has designed a bad product (humanity).

9. This means that Allah must be sued in a human court of law for liability.

10. Don't you think that if you manufacture car tires and they start blowing up on the road, we will stop you from producing those tires again?

11. If I am Allah, I will need to be responsible and with one action (remember that I am Allah, I can do anything), I can download a "software program" to all humanity's brains in one release. This "software program", will make all human beings hug each other and love each other. And peace will return.

12. Since this has not happened, and Allah is responsible for the creation of these Weapons of Mass Destruction (Human beings and religion), it seems to me that Allah is not nice.

continued...

·

1:55 pm    November 13, 2003
Ali
310
309
continued...

11. Note that many other religions/sects based on Islam 1.0 have succeeded: Druze, Sufis, Bahai, etc..In the Christian world, the Mormons, protestants, and Catholics, etc...

12. With time, it's very normal for the believers to change the Manual to adapt it to the new Era they live in. Islam 1.0 is no exception either.

13. I hope I answered some of your questions. If I did not, let me know the posting number and I will do it tonight!.

14. Sorry, again for my oversight!

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan Wa ssalam

·

1:52 pm    November 13, 2003
Ali
309
308
continued...

6. Look all over the world, Islam 1.0 has become so obsolete and boring that the only thing Muslims talk about is: Ooh, the Jews and Zionist hate the world, ooh look at us Muslims, we need to apply Shariaa to reclaim world power, Hijab is a must! Mortgages are Haram!, Eating at Mcdonald's is Haram!, etc..

7. Muslims are still struggling with some of the basic concepts: Equality between men and women, equality in inheritance, fasting, Ijtihad, and the never ending saga of Halal vs. Haram issues

8. Since Islam 1.0 was further complicated by hadeeths, amendments, etc...It has become too complex to understand (Negotiator and others seem to tell us that you need to study fiqh, ahhadeeths, history, Master's degrees in theology, Phd, and years of practice to be able to understand Islam 1.0), this is complex indeed.

9. If you truly think about it, virtually all arguments against allowing a woman to be Imama are null and void. They make no sense what so ever in today's age. The fact that Allah 1.0 keeps changing the manual (Torah, Bible, Koran, etc...) proves to me that any religion is changeable just like a product has a life cycle.

10. I personally do not believe in the assertion that prophet Mohammed (PBUH) is the last messenger. If we actually use Koran 1.0, Issa (PBUH) predicted a prophet by the name Ahmed (in one of my early postings, I challenged Negotiator to explain why the contradiction in Koran 1.0, and his answer is the classic one: Ahmed = Mohammed!, this is one of many things why Koran 1.0 is not 100% correct)


continued....

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1:51 pm    November 13, 2003
Ali
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299
Dear Lui:

1. I am sorry if I did not answer some of your postings. Nothing against you! I just go with the flow and answer as many postings as I can

2. This forum is a very good one because we are all learning from each other.

3. I know that Muslims in general get very offended when people in this forum challenge the Koran, Islam, and Allah's concepts.

Let me try to summarize my personal feelings about the state of Islam 1.0 in the 21st century:

1. Just like any product out there, there is a life cycle associated with it. The product is designed, created, used, and then time passes by, and this product becomes obsolete, because a new one shows up.

2. Islam 1.0 came to humanity 1500 years ago. This product (Islam 1.0) served its purpose, took humanity to a higher thinking level, and then other product makers started competing with Islam 1.0.

3. Some of these products include: Sufism, Druze, Shiaa, Bahai, protestants, Catholics, and now Islam 2.0

4. The reason why Islam 1.0 is in the process of being replaced, because it has become too complex and too illogical for the people of the 21st century. As you can see, the internet, satellite, mobile phones, etc have changed the mentality of people.

5. People, like you and I question a lot. The old way of doing things does not work anymore. You do not tell me that: "because the Koran said it, that's why" and expect me to accept that answer.

continued...

·

12:41 pm    November 13, 2003

Rasta Gnawi message
307
BB,
Your point?
·

12:09 pm    November 13, 2003
BlaBla
306
Question to a all of u Moroccan
Why Are You A Muslim?
Are you convinced that islam is the right religion for you,after you conducted a thorough investigation.
Or you just inherited Islam from your parents and grand-parent and etc
I believe the latter apply, most people are muslim simply because they're bornin a muslim country not by choice.Think about it
·

12:06 pm    November 13, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
305
We cann't turn back to God and say, "Well you should have stoped the bullet from reaching the kid's head, and since you didnt do anything about it, then you wanted it to be that way" and full stop!

Yes, and that is why The First thing that a Muslim should know and Believe in Is ( Al2iman bil9ada2 wal9adar) Every thing is for a reason and as you said that is above our understanding, so That`s why Allah ordered us not to complain about his Will,

And this some kind of a test , bach ychouf chkoun ye7med allah 3la kull 7al wechkoun lli radi yekfer...

We should all think that if something bad happens it isn`t because we deserve it, it might that , and it might not be, so always think that if god closes this door he opens many other doors...

·

11:59 am    November 13, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
304

First , I never said that thinking wether God would allow an event to take place or not was "stupid" thinking. so, plz read carefuly before you reply .

Reread it carefully and you'll see that I wasn't talking to you,
I said to stay and think whether Allah will allow some thing or not is Stupid,( you don't agree with the idea) how come you think I said that about you???

I didn't say that I prefer to focus on the 1%, hanta 3awtani assuming, I focus on the 100% I don't take the 99% and forget about the 1% , Just like if I'm going to a surgery and they say there is a 1% chance that it will not succeed, so even if there is only 1% chance, I will be scared but still I will take it cause ill be pretty sure it will succeed, but that doesn't mean that I will forget about the 99%, I will say inchallah ...., and I know we all say it...,


I can garanty you, that if there was asphalt instead of the grass, I can safely predict with 100% acuuracy that she would not rise up anymore.

I cannot guarantee you that, because some body jumped from the 5th floor and run away...,

Anyways, I say Inshaallah like all muslims, but what we need is take action and be responable.
All muslim nations repeat Inshaallah, masshaallah, bi idnillah...yet, they cann't
give you a birh certificate on time.
They can if you give them 9ahoua, wella yla kenti weld l bacha well al9ayed..., But is this because they say inchallah, bi2idni allah??!????

One has to do his work and finish it FIRST (!!!!!) , then lets talk about wether God did allow it or not...

That's Exactly what I said.... you do the work and you count on God as well.....,

·

11:23 am    November 13, 2003

Antr McShaddad (Yahia.L) message
303
A well trained jewish soldier or sniper aiming at the head of an innocent Palestinian child going to school, and...*BANG! * the child is dead !
Allah is for sure angry seing that.
Abviousely he is reserving Hell to such a soldier.
He is not resposable for the murder of the child, otherways he would not be angry in the first place.
God gets upset (ghadab), that is way he grought us the laws in the Quran, stating that a killer should get punished on earth.
We cann't turn back to God and say, "Well you should have stoped the bullet from reaching the kid's head, and since you didnt do anything about it, then you wanted it to be that way" and full stop!

But things don't necessarely work that way, God's will is something above our understanding as muslims...but at least we know and understand why a bullet cann't stop in the air once it is fired...
We also undertand that if one wants to make Couscous, he needs couscous ingredients and he would better not forget 9affal... because as the the old Moroccan proverbe goes:
"Wallah la 9affelti, la fawerti !"

;)

·

10:47 am    November 13, 2003

Antr McShaddad (Yahia.L) message
302
295
Neo,

First , I never said that thinking wether God would allow an event to take place or not was "stupid" thinking. so, plz read carefuly before you reply .

The way I see it, I am happy with a 99% accurate prediction, you on the other hand you prefere to focuse of the 1 % missing, as if it would discridit the validity of the 99%.
the weather forcart is a complicated science wich is still under devellopment,
new models and bettwer math equations etc..are considered all the time.
making errors here and there does not mean meteorolgy or similar science, charlatanism .
the same thing goes for the doctor fixing poeple's body , or attacking their deceases. Errors do happen, even withing your own computer . in the futur, there will be less as science devellopes.

As for thewoman who did fall of a 4th floor,
let me tell you, than 5 minutes from here a woman who was partying did drop from her balcony located in the 6th floor .
she landed on the grass, stood up and walked home without a fracture . (she was on a local paper)
She was drunk, and it is a know fact that when drunk poeple do fall , they dont break bones easely as sober poeple do, because their body is not as rigide.
(less resistance during a shock).
Now, you can consider that as a miracle where God sent miraculous forces to save the body of that drunk woman.
I can garanty you, that if there was asphalt instead of the grass, I can safely predict with 100% acuuracy that she would not rise up anymore.

Anyways, I say Inshaallah like all muslims, but what we need is take action and be responable.
All muslim nations repeat Inshaallah, masshaallah, bi idnillah...yet, they cann't
give you a birh certificate on time.
While some lunatic Godless freak, can aim his guns and shoot with 100% accuracy and make alot of damage to innocent poeple.
And please leave God out of that !

One has to do his work and finish it FIRST (!!!!!) , then lets talk about wether God did allow it or not...



·

10:27 am    November 13, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
301
Yeah , there are Imams that have E-mails even in Morocco... beleieve it or not.....
·

9:29 am    November 13, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
300
297
I learned that last Friday prayer speech from Imam Talal of the Quincy Mosque in The Greater Boston area. I will contact him by email (yes Imams have emails in USA hihihih) so that I learn more about what he was saying.
·

9:23 am    November 13, 2003
Lui
299
291
Ali,
Although you neglected my responses to you, I continued reading your postings and tried to make sense of them. However, it looks to me that you don?t understand Islam and its teaching. How can someone come up with Islam 2.0 without understanding Islam 1.0? This is a religion that you are trying to make up for people to believe in and fellow not a cheap product to sell to anyone out there!

One other thing that I have noticed in your arguments; that is the use of Bahaiin literature! I am really amazed how you can agree with their ideologies and refute those of Islam! I only can understand that if you are trying to come up with another religion that you might call ?Aliin? and consider yourself another ?bab? (what bahaiin believe in!).

All,
As Adnane stated in one of his posts, please try not to judge Islam by what some Muslims are doing! Allah yahdina ou safi!

·

8:59 am    November 13, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
298
Mr Islam 2.0

(Since in Koran 1.0 we say that: Believers, fasting is decreed for you as it was decreed for those before you..."),
"How many days where "those people before us, Muslims", used to fast?
What difference would it make ???

·

8:58 am    November 13, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
297
Adnane,
you said that some Muslims started Fasting but Many didn`t!!! the others wanted to enjoy Food and didn`t want to go through the struggle!!! can you back your statment ??? How do you know?

then you said .. until it became phenomenon by social validation,that`s WHEN God said (..faman ra2a..) !!!???? how do you know that God said that after it became a social phenomenon!!???

You sounded like you were with them when describing how they welcomed fasting..etc...,

·

8:55 am    November 13, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
296
The point from all this is not to block our selves and say will If god wants this to happen it will happen no matter what we do, Yes that`s true , but we have to keep working,
For example there is a slight chance that some body can smuggle a gun in a Plane but still you see armed Pilots , So predicting that there no way that somebody can smuggle a Gun through all the security didn`t stop them from taking it in consideration, Same goes with Every thing, to predict that this is gonna happen 99.99% doesn`t mean that you shouldn`t think about the inthinkable,
So yes we can Predict but we don`t say we are so dead right, just like if some body is in a Coma and they say he will not recover, he stayes there for years and one day he recovers, that`s what we call machi2at Allah, so they did know that he is almost dead but still they kept that 1% hope wich came true, That`s what God wants you to think about, when you predict something, always say that God can make the Impossible very possible.
My brother witnessed one of his friends(12 years old) falling from the roof of a 4 story Building, he saw him falling down he hit the Grass , and didn`t move every body of course will assume that he is dead , there is a very slight chance that he might survive, and guess what he didn`t even survive, he walked out of the hospital on his feet, with not a single injury,
(wala ta9ulanna lichay2in inni fa3iloun dalika radan, ILLA AN YACHA2A ALLAH) Allah said that you can`t say this will happen tomorrow without saying by The will of God, he didn`t say that you can`t predict, but he said you can predict but say if God Wills it.

·

8:54 am    November 13, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
295
Antr,
You should take a look back at what i said, so we won`t be arguing about nothing,
I didn`t say Blosk your self, I Just said that No matter how sure we can be , we always have to think that Every thing is by the Will of God, we are not gonna lose any thing if we say Inchallah, two words, but because we are humans, we tend to challenge every body , even God.
You can calculate when a Tornado will pass by your House, and predict as much as you want, there is no problem with that but you can`t be so sure, and Again hwy is it called Prediction? because there is a chance that it won`t happen, very simple...
It is Good to look objectivly at things, and see what caused it and what might stop it....etc, that is fine, to stay and think weither Allah will allow it or not, that is stupid, and i don`t think we should think that way, and it will not help you as you said in changing any thing... ,
How many times you predicted that the day will be sunny, and there is no way taht it might Rain, and then it turnes out to be a rainy day, how many times did a doctor say that this guys will never heal from this illness and he was worng!! my friend in Morocco had cancer, and when they found out they told his family taht he will live around 3 years or so, came home after 2 months he died Allah Yre7mou ,
·

1:57 am    November 13, 2003
sanita
294
what I love and find challenging about Ramdan is the fact that we have to keep out thoughts "pure" and live like "a saint" for 30 days... as least that's what I try to do ...and god knows how hard it is sometimes specially when ...i'll just stop here....
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11:57 pm    November 12, 2003
oasienne
293
A link about ramdan story, did not go through all the sections , but seems interresting:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/pillars/fasting/tajuddin/fast_1.html
·

9:35 pm    November 12, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
292
291
Ali, the way I understand it is first God suggested fasting to people. Some Muslims started fasting, but many didn't. Those who fasted did so because they thought hey God is recommending fasting to us, we shall do it. The others wanted to enjoy food and didn't want to go through the struggle. Understandable, can't blame them (hihihihih). Eventually, more and more people started to join the fasting camp until it became a phenomenon by social validation. that's when God said [ ..faman shahida minkoumou shahra falyassoumhou.. ] suggesting a stronger level of obligation.

Wallaho a3lam. shi marra kandakhall fiha my humble opinion (couldn't help it again Negotiator hihihi)

·

8:51 pm    November 12, 2003
Ali
291
285
Dear Negotiator:

Here are 2 links to give you a different perspective about the "Arab Ramadan" and the months that different "Muslims" fast (Ramadan, the moving month (29 or 30 days), vs. (19 days for bahai, March-2..March-21, vs December (31 days) fasting).

1. http://www.muhammadspeaks.com/Ramadan.html

2. http://www.bahai.org/article-1-4-7-2.html

Please read the full article at:
http://www.islamicvoice.com/december.2001/speaks.htm

here's an exerpt:

"Fasting was first made an obligation in the second year after the Prophet?s settlement in Madinah, shortly before jihad, or the struggle for the cause of Allah, was made an obligation. As a new duty, fasting was very hard for Muslims. Allah, therefore, gave a concession to those who find fasting too much of a strain and who can do it only with great difficulty. They were allowed not to fast, provided that they feed a needy person. He also made it clear to them that to feed the needy is highly commendable, whether it is done voluntarily, i.e, not in compensation for not fasting, or by doing more than the minimum required. The compensation required for making use of this concession is to feed one person for each day one does not fast, and increase it to feed two or three or more needy people for each day...."

=================
Question:
=================
(Since in Koran 1.0 we say that: Believers, fasting is decreed for you as it was decreed for those before you..."),

"How many days where "those people before us, Muslims", used to fast?


Jazakomo Allaho Khairan, Wassalam

·

6:47 pm    November 12, 2003

Antr McShaddad (Yahia.L) message
290
289
"I understand what you say, BUT Again Predictions are Just Predictions they are not Facts...."


-I don't get it ! I thought we were talking about predictions, not about facts....

" Let`s take the example you gave about eclipses , ok yes they can predict that an Eclipse will take place in 20 Years or so, and be so sure about it, and they`ll give you the time and every thing, If Allah decides to make the day of judgment in 10 Years will that Eclipse happen? NO
So this is what we mean by Ghayb "

-I think we should refrain from blocking ourselves with possible extraordinary events (extraordinary= something wich doesnt usually often)

I would calculate when a tornado will pass by my house next month, so that I could take my precausions, Just because God could stop life on earth next week, that doesnt mean I should not
predict the "tonado event" , or any other event that can take place 1...2..4 months from now. Otherwyas I should not plan for my retirement, since God could kill me today before the sun goes down...

Predictions are estimates based upon previous repeated observations.
Just like I can predicte that the sun will shine tomorrow from the east with 99,99 % accuracy, I dont have to worry about the extraordinary event that, for no known reason, the moon might hit Eart today.
Likeways , an other person can predict with reasonable accuracy the out come of a mutli tasking system after studying it in detail.

Allah controls the Universe, we as Muslims believe that he can do any thing from nothing,
I agree we can predict with science about a lot of stuff, but nothing would happen without the order of God....


-To me personally, predicting the out come of a given situation, does not mean predicting Allah's moves...
I tend to look objectively to the event itself and what caused it, not weather Allah did allow it or not, because questioning that would not help me understanding what's around me, much less changing it .
What is easy to predict today, was "ghayb" yesterday...

These are some abyat from that Imam chafi3i wrote :

*kam da7ikin walmanaya faw9a hamatihi
**law kana ya3lamou ghayban mata min kamadi.

*man kana lam you2ta 3ilman fi ba9a2i radin.
** madha tafakurouhou fi riz9i ba3da radin.


-Here is a poem sang by Jaques Brel :

Quand on n a que l amour
Pour tracer un chemin
Et forcer le destin
A chaque carrefour (...)

·

5:25 pm    November 12, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
289
Adnane,
Thanks buddy, khouk rah kan sayem w zerban khasosu yemchi yef6ar..., but i think he got th ePoint that it is mentioned that we should fast Ramadan witch is a MONTH,30 or 29 days

Antr,
I understand what you say, BUT Again Predictions are Just Predictions they are not Facts....
Let`s take the example you gave about eclipses , ok yes they can predict that an Eclipse will take place in 20 Years or so, and be so sure about it, and they`ll give you the time and every thing, If Allah decides to make the day of judgment in 10 Years will that Eclipse happen? NO
So this is what we mean by Ghayb,
Allah controls the Universe, we as Muslims believe that he can do any thing from nothing,

I agree we can predict with science about a lot of stuff, but nothing would happen without the order of God....

These are some abyat from that Imam chafi3i wrote :

*kam da7ikin walmanaya faw9a hamatihi
**law kana ya3lamou ghayban mata min kamadi.

*man kana lam you2ta 3ilman fi ba9a2i radin.
** madha tafakurouhou fi riz9i ba3da radin.

·

4:02 pm    November 12, 2003

Antr McShaddad (Yahia.L) message
288
277
"if they predict something 100 times and they get it Right 99 times , then they can be worng any time...., that means they are not 100% sure "

If you manage to predict any repeated event even by an average of 90 % accuracy, your predictions are reliable enough to keep that event under control Most of the times. and that is more than good enough !

Nowadays it is possible to predict exactly and with accuracy , when an eclipse will take place years from now, when a comet or asteroid will pass next to eart , at what speed ...

If those predictions would not have become acceptable facts nowadays , many religious scholars would have said that is shirk billah...
It is only now, that they that have to change their misunderstanding and accept the facts , because the science would prove them wrong otherways...

·

3:17 pm    November 12, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
287
285
Negotiator, you did not prove to Ali that Quran mentions we should fast the month of Ramadan because you missed out on the last part of the verse, which says:

[ ... Faman Shahida Minkoumou Shahra, Falyassoumhou... Dhalika Khayroun Lakoum in kountoum Ta3lamoun... ]

So basically, here God advises us to fast Ramadan. He emphasizes that if we research the benefits of Fasting and become knowledgeable, we will know it is better to fast that many days a year.

Personnaly, I am always thirsty for brand new research results about fasting. If anyone has good sources, articles etc about that let me know.

·

3:15 pm    November 12, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
286
MB,
I said in previous posts that women can be and WERE and STILL are Scholars....
If the reasons given don`t convince you, well i can`t do any thing about it,i`m not trying to convince you i`m just explaining the reasons behind this..., if you need to be convinced you should speak to a scholar......

we are Equal...., and no body can tell you what to do and what not to do.....

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3:12 pm    November 12, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
285
Mr Islam 2.0,
Why do you starve your self for 30 days??? look at your question and
you`ll have the answer why most of the Muslims are Ignorants.....
Most People think that Fasting is about Food, we were warned by our
beloved Prophet(PBUH) that Ramadan is not about food only, you need to
read a little bit more about why we fast,
and by the Way if you don`t see ant reason why we should Fast, why did
you say minimum of one day??? that`s means you are ordering people to
fast at least one day, whitch contradicts what you say....., see why i
think you are just a kid who feels insecured...

Adnane, aswered you, regarding what you said about muslims not being
productive, and all that..., it is not the fault of Islam that they do
that, Islam didn`t tell you to sleep until 9 and go to work and come back
at 2 and sleep until almaghrib.....Stop blaming Islam for what Muslims
do, and Rememebr the Example of the Car, when we see an accident, we
don`t blame the car we blame the driver...

You said that Quran didn`t say that we should Fast 30 days, well , you
don`t even know this, and you wanna create a Quran 2.0 !!!???? how come
?
Yes it is mentioned Allah said ( chahrou(month) Ramadana alladi ounzila
fihi alquraan hudan linnasi wa bayennatin mina alhuda walfur9an )
Go do some researches first...

·

2:53 pm    November 12, 2003
mb
284
282
desolee !!! message recu
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2:34 pm    November 12, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
283
281
I'd like to reiterate to you Ali what I said in my message #262. This Islam 2.0 you're suggesting is a major deviation in the wrong direction.

For why do we do Ramadan, I think you've answered yourself partially when you said:

[E. Muslims eat too much during Iftar and Suhur (contrary to giving a break to your body during Ramadan)]

Giving a break to your body. I'd word it a little differently and say that by fasting you're working out your internal body. When you want to work out your external muscles, you run, swim, box, lift weights, etc. If you want to wrk out your internal organs, fasting is a good sport. Fasting excercises the stamina of your organs, the control mechanisms of fat, reasoning and survival. That's how I look at it.

Ali, Ramadan should teach people to eat modestly, not fill up tables with all kinds of food. I always thought it was a beautiful thing to the extent we call it the ramadan table, to the extent we decorate the table with a new nappe, new art.. we make the table feel pretty and special, like a bride. This is traditions, and traditions are though parameters to control and balance with religion.

Final Thought:
So my point is don't blame Islam 1.0 when you see how Muslims handle Ramadan 1.0 I'd say it's People that need to upgrade their twisted ways and behaviour from 1.0 to 2.0

Regards.

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2:19 pm    November 12, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
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mb :) I have to say something about this equality between man and woman. Too late, I think we're about to divert from the subject.. May I please invite you, since there is still some time to save this topic, to resurrect the more appropriate topic discussion of man-woman equality and future roles of woman. Follow me here please, thank you.
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2:19 pm    November 12, 2003
Ali
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continued...

6. In fact (I am talking about Islam 1.0):

A. The life expectancy of people in Muslim countries is LESS than their western counterparts.

B. Muslim countries have higher numbers of poor people than western countries

C. Muslim countries are among the most screwed up countries in the world (Iraq, Lebanon, Palestine, Jordan, Sudan, Saudia Arabia, Afghanistan, Iran, Algeria, Chechnya, etc...)

D. Muslims are very edgy and tired during Ramadan.

E. Muslims eat too much during Iftar and Suhur (contrary to giving a break to your body during Ramadan)

F. Muslim countries are less productive during Ramadan (work from 9 am to 2 pm, in most places in Morocco)

7. So how can Islam 1.0 still claim the points of item 3 above?.

8. Since Koran 1.0 did not specifically say: Fast for 30 days, why are Muslims still doing it? I know that Islam 1.0 has Ramadan as one of the pillars, but don't you think that it's time to drop this requirement?

9. I personally think that Ramadan was a mistake from the part of Islam 1.0. It does not have any tangible value and it should be removed/modified from Islam 1.0.

10. The leaders of Islam 1.0 (which I believe have failed in their leadership) need to scale back Ramadan and do something similar to Islam 2.0 (min of 1 day, max of 30 days, allow water to avoid dehydration, make the days flexible, etc... see posting # 257)

11. Finally, since Ramadan was part of life before Islam 1.0, how come Christians, Jews, bahai's, and other faiths since Abraham, have scaled back/canceled Ramadan altogether, while we Muslims are still stuck with it?

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

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2:17 pm    November 12, 2003
Ali
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Dear Negotiator:

I quote you:

"To your knowledge there is a word Imama in Arabic it just doesn't mean what you mean, so you can't give another name that means something to something else...
you need to work harder, find a Name for a female Imam, and then will go further... sorry"

My answer:

Thanks to adnane and mb, they gave the same answer I was thinking of.

Now that we have settled the name for a Muslim female preacher (Imama, this is for Islam 2.0, posting #257), let's go on through the list of items in Islam 2.0.

Let's focus on Ramadan or fasting.

1. Why do we starve ourselves for 30 days?

2. Who said we have to fast for 30 days exactly (It's not stated in Koran 1.0, is it?)

3. Last night, I was talking to my Dad and Mom (they belong to Islam 1.0), and asked them about item 1 above. Their answer was:

A. Ramadan teaches us how poor people feel when they are hungry.

B. Ramadan cleans your body because you are not eating every other hour.

C. Ramadan teaches you how to restrain yourself from life's desires and confrontations.

4. I was not surprised by my parent's answer, because that's the exact answer I get from All Moroccan "Muslims". That's what the Fqih in the religious schools tought the little kids when they were 5 years old.

5. It's very interesting to notice that Ramadan is one of the main raisons why a lot of "potential western converts", stay away from Islam 1.0. Nobody is buying the idea that starving yourself for 30 days is going to accomplish item 3.


continued....

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1:46 pm    November 12, 2003
mb
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ha7na bdina tani kankheltou les plumes et les pinceaux....i am talking about doctors and u tell me chouwafat????!!!!!!!....ach jab chi l chi ...!!! Ihdik Lah!!
lmouhim oui a sidi i don t believe in reading cards ...but i believe in science...u just don t want to admit that humans can say what will happen in the future...u can t admit it because it is not written in the coran....

Yes women can be scholars, we usually call them Cheikha, But not the Moroccan meaning of cheikha,(dancer) but they cannot lead Prayers ....

Ewa labass....nhar kbir hada...women can be scholars..thanks nego...ewa if they can be scholars why can t they lead prayers ( Imama)....????? do u think it s fair???!!! ...and i already read the reasons u gave...seriously they don t convince me that much....having her period ..and bla bla bla ....seriously... come up with something reasonable this time please...we ( women) are really sick of hearing those kind of excuses...the women r as smart as men...as strong as men ...so why can t we be equal....aw ...I DONT GET IT.....why do you always have to lead...take decisions? tell us what to do and not to do ???

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12:13 pm    November 12, 2003

abdelilah message
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We say imraatun '3ajuz' and not '3ajuza'. Very interesting to ponder about.
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12:13 pm    November 12, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
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Wayeeh 7naya b9eena f Imama,
I don`t think there is a rule that says one word can`t mean two things, But as well I know that people cannot just add names to a Lnaguage in a forum!!!! this will take months if not years to do so.
Yes women can be scholars, we usually call them Cheikha, But not the Moroccan meaning of cheikha,(dancer) but they cannot lead Prayers ....

MB,
Yes i said Drugs, but that only if the intention is to get High, if you use it for medicines it is Ok, it is In the Quran that it has it`s good and bad, and it`s bad is bigger than it`s good.....,

So we definitely can use drugs for medicines purposes...

MB,
can you tell what will happen to you in a day? or in an Hour, or just in a minute? you can`t ? you can predict, and say i will do this, but you are not sure that`s why we say(and you do to) INCHALLAH,
if they predict something 100 times and they get it Right 99 times , then they can be worng any time...., that means they are not 100% sure,

You said you don`t believe in (reading Cards) chouwafate and all that,
so if i tell you that this chouwaffa predicted 100 times on some thing and she got it 100 times, would you believe her ??
In Islam, we say kadaba almunajjimouna walaw sada9ou....,
even if they tell you that this will happen they are lying to you even if it turnes out that they were right, because THEY DIDN`T KNOW FOR SURE .

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12:07 pm    November 12, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
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Imam for males, Imama for females, what the heck is odd in that? you want to limit the Arabic language.

How about, Rabb (responsible) for males, and Rabba for females. Sheikh for male, Sheikha for female. Fqih for male, Fqiha for females. Tayyaba hihihihih for females, Tayyab wella Kassal for males. Kambou, Kambouya. Kbiyyed (male for liver hehehehehe) Kbiyyda for females. Malik, Malika.

But when nhadrou 3la Allah, we can't say Allaha, because we don't know whether God has an attribute called sex and gender.

yallah later, I'm fasting so if I said anything horrible, my bad.

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11:59 am    November 12, 2003
mb
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walou tgoul li bghitit a sidi ...it is still 3ilmou al ghayb ...they can know what will happen...( even if they don t get it always right...la ya3lamou al ghayba illa lah is not that 100% valid anymore ....

i agree with you on the khamr thing...u also added drugs at the end...what about medicine? is this haram too ??because they are kind of drugs!!!

and about imama....it doesn t exist in arabic because that position does not exist ...we can still call her imama...even if it has another meaning ....words can have different meanings u know..!!!...u are talking about the imama word like it is a big deal ...a sidi machi mouhim .... don t call her anything just let her be an imam...we don t need names...aww b9at f le nom ...

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11:40 am    November 12, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
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Negotiator, by the way in any language that I know of, there is no rule that says a word must have a unique meaning.
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11:07 am    November 12, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
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You are still stuck thinking about the word "Imama". "Imama" is the feminine form of "Imam". It does not exist in the Arabic language. We will add it. It's that simple my brother in Islam. Just like we are able to add the word "internet" to the Arabic language, it's ok to add the word "Imama" to the Arabic language.

He He He....
machallah wellitti 3alim tzeed lli bghiti wtne9ass li bghiti..

To your knowledge there is a word Imama in Arabic it just doesn`t mean what you mean, so you can`t give another name that means something to something else...
you need to work harder, find a Name for a female Imam, and then will go further... sorry

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11:04 am    November 12, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
272
Blabla, (issm 3ala mussamma)
The prophet(PBUH) explained and added more to the Alcohol case, and he said( ma askara katirouhou fa 9alilouhou 7aram) he didn`t say khamr or alcohol or albeerrah, he said ma askara, so what you ever you take if you get drunk from drinking a big amount of it just a seep of it is 7aram, he also said (alkhamrou ma khamara al3a9l) so not only alcohol, but any thing that makes your 3a9l makhmour is 7aram, meaning, drugs....


But it seems to me that the only reasonable explanation for that is that God does that sometimes to test us. He does that sometimes to reminds us to be thankfull for what we have. He also does seem to give to these handicap people other powers, other opportunities.. It better be this explanation otherwise,
Adnane,
Yes that is exactly how it is explained....

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11:03 am    November 12, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
271
MB,
PREDICT is not Know for sure, they can predict as long as they want, BUT (That famous BUT) they can be wrong and they can be right, they can tell you you have a Girl, and then you`ll have a BOY, and it happened not once not twice, i know of one case for sure..., they say it is gonna rain tomorrow, next day you wake up it is sunny and beautiful, they can predict how much time APPROXIMATELY you can live but they will never tell you you will die on this day or the other day, so predicting the Future is not Knowing the Future...

Regarding l clonage, da7aktini, nous les humans on peut cree un etre vivant , Wellah wakha ytjem3ou all the humans and jinn, they cannot create a BUG, la3essak ykhel9ou bnadem, when we say the word Create , what does it mean?? it means Create, or let`s put it this way, Create something from Nothing, so these Humans, can they create a being from Nothing?? NO they couldn`t , they are using DNA, they are using sperm, so what`s so creative in this?? can they create humans from Nothing?? we Created High ways, Routes, so we put Rules, which is fine and every body respects them, if we don`t we get the punishment we deserve....

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10:21 am    November 12, 2003

Antr McShaddad (Yahia.L) message
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Blabla,

Just like wines, beer is made out of fermentation (dail sh3ir) as well .
and so is whiskey, vodka and the rest .
(the juice of fermented grains + large quantity of alcohol )
Do some little googling about those items and you will find it .

PS: Beer existed since the days of the Pharaos...

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9:00 pm    November 11, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
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hahahahaha -- hold on hold on.. beer is halal ? hahahaha .. come on man. Alcohol in all forms is advised against from Islam point of view for the benefit of people. Let's not look at it as another "Don't you sorry humans drink alcohol or else I'll squansha you!" kindda statement from God.. it is better for people to avoid it because it screws with your brain, clouds your judgement, numbs your senses, slows your reflexes, causes accidents of all kinds, weakens you, etc.

One could argue that small quantities of wine do no harm, but no guarrantee on this subject.

Bottom line, one has to know what they're doing if they decide to drink wine occasionally, be responsible. As far as Islam, Islam advises against it.

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8:25 pm    November 11, 2003
BlaBla
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Negociator
I think Ramadan start to cloud your judgement. You've got to be careful when label peolple as 'drunk". I said I enjoy a few beers on my day off ,that dosen't make me a drunk or an alcoholic.And by the way in the early days of islam people used to go to mosque drunk,and one day Omar Bin Lkhatab was leading a prayer and he say "a 3boudoni" instead of "a3boudo allah".After that came the ayat prohiting "al khamr" during prayer. So if you understand arabic "khamr" simply mean fermentation necessary to making wine at that time. So we can deduce from this that only khamr=wine is haram.But the Coran never mentionned alcohol (al kohool) as haram which mean Whiskey, Vodka,and Gin not Haram,.also they didn't have beer in the time of the prophet. so beer is Halal too.
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2:02 pm    November 11, 2003
mb
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no one is better than the other, that is why i see it better to follow the rules that were given to us By someone who Created us .....


well!! u are saying that assuming that the coran and hadeeth are 100% accurate...u said once that the coran is free of errors...because la ya3lamou al ghayba ila lah ...it is true in a way maybe ...but(hihi always) hey if am pregnant i can know if am gonna have a girl or a boy...we can forcast the weather...we can know if our kid is going to have a certain disease...doctors can even predict how much time u ve got left to live when u are sick ( in some cases)...but isn t that already called predicting the future...for me it is ...ama dak l clonage...don t even talk about it ...ns les humains on peut cree un etre vivant ...we can create too... if we create ( selon ta logic) then we cahe the right to establish laws...

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2:00 pm    November 11, 2003
Ali
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Dear Negotiator:

I quote you:

"i don`t want to go through every thing you said because , you don`t answer questions that we ask you, you are Still saying Imama,
you don`t explain any thing, you are just repeating every thing......"

My answer:

You are still stuck thinking about the word "Imama". "Imama" is the feminine form of "Imam". It does not exist in the Arabic language. We will add it. It's that simple my brother in Islam. Just like we are able to add the word "internet" to the Arabic language, it's ok to add the word "Imama" to the Arabic language.

I quote you:

"So only that who invents something can make it work....,
Same thing with our Life, Allah Gave us Life and Gave us teh Manual(QURAN) without it we can`t make it work, when we need to make it work we go to him who created that Life, we don`t go to some one like YOU..."

My answer:

This same Allah you are talking about, made the Torah, the Bible, the Koran. It seems to me that he/she/it keeps changing the Manual. Why can't we change the manual?. And yes, we can do just fine without the manual, completely. Do not underestimate the will and power of humanity. Remember that human doctors are able to open your heart, unclog it, and stitch you back up. There was no medicine manual by Allah. Humans evolved, learned, re-invented themselves, and Voila!. Now, let's be serious here: Those people who lived 1500 years ago, don't you think that they will consider a heart operation a miracle (just like he Israa and miaraj)?

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

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12:32 pm    November 11, 2003

abdelilah message
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I agree with you negotiator.
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12:24 pm    November 11, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
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Point understood. As a matter of fact, I just came out from a meeting here at work discussing how to run a specific embedded application we are designing on 2 CPUs. Getting these 2 CPUs to communicate, to perform their own responsibilities, without stepping on each other's toes, and following hi-level guidelines we enforce on both of them. If each CPU goes on doing its own thing, the board and chips might get smoked, or you get a bunch of warnings or "blue screens". It requires meticulous design, and even with that, there's no guarrantee.

Sometimes i wonder when we see errors and defects in creatures, physical, moral etc. is it because of defects in God's design or is it done in purpose by God. We see handicap-born people for example. You can live with them fine, but they still are missing something functional. When we have an application bug at the customer, it annoys him, frustrates him, maybe even make him lose millions of dollars. When a handicap baby is born, it makes people sympathetic and sad to some extent, let's be honest. But it seems to me that the only reasonable explanation for that is that God does that sometimes to test us. He does that sometimes to reminds us to be thankfull for what we have. He also does seem to give to these handicap people other powers, other opportunities.. It better be this explanation otherwise, it will be hard for me to entertain the idea that God's design can have defects that were not thought of. When that software bug comes at customer office, it doesn't mean we want to remind the customer that he has to be good to his employees, to remind him to thank us that the application runs fine 90% of the time... I'm just talking out loud here. Wallaho a3lam, and Thank you God for everything you gave us. You keep amazing me with your ways.

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11:29 am    November 11, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
263
Adnane,
I didn`t say any thing that contradicts what you just said,
I agree, yeah we should find another way how to work it, BUT can we work it without the Manual??? no we need that manual always, because there are principles that we cannot take out, and that we cannot improve, improve the machine yes, but we can`t improve the manual....

Don`t take the Example literally, cause you will miss the point....

The Point is that fa9idou achay2i la you36ih,

we aren`t the ones who created each other why would we put rules for each other ? am i better than you to force you to folow my rules? no one is better than the other, that is why i see it better to follow the rules that were given to us By someone who Created us .....

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10:35 am    November 11, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
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I am interested in any kind of research work, thinking, practical reports, and philosophy done in the area of islam, exploring its myriad of flexibilities allowed to us by God. But I just have to tell Ali that putting all this into terms like Islam 2.0, Koran 2.0 etc is not very wise when talking to people (e.g. negotiator). These people will immedately not think that you have good intentions, but that you have evil intentions of changing the word of God.

That's one thing about terminology and analogies.

Second, Negotiator, that machine you're talking about, even if it has a manual ad you give the manual to someone 200 or 300 years later, he might not be able to use it. Why? for many reasons, some of which:

1. The manual is very specific.
2. The manual could assume that the only source of power for energy is electricity and tells you to connect the plug to a socket with 220V. 200, 300 years later, we might be using another form of energy. The user will have to figure a way to work around this problem, improve the machine to be able to take energy from the new sources, etc.

3. The machine assumes the user has hands so she can operate it, push buttons, revolve knobs ect. But 2000, 3000, years later humans could lose a hand.

My point is the manual of God is not highly specific, it is highly abstract to allow for redefinition of the implementation depending on the time and the environment. And that is the wisdom that I see in God and I admire always. It's just that it's really hard to figure out new implementations while sticking to the rules of the abstract message. I don't blame the scholars, I don't blame myself for always saying "in my humble opinion" when I want to understand a message. It is challenging and God knows it.

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10:23 am    November 11, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
261
I can`t call you Ali any more, you Really dishonored the Name of the Companion of The prophet(PBUH) Ali Karramma allahou wajhaha.

I doubt any body will like all your laws that you created....., if no body at all....,

You still are giving laws and rules...,
that makes no sense(I.E giving Zakat to NUMBERR 1 sick People) so if somebody is very Rich we can give him zakat,
Any wasy i don`t want to go through every thing you said because , you don`t answer questions that we ask you, you are Still saying Imama,
you don`t explain any thing, you are just repeating every thing......

Let me give you an Example,
When You buy something, you get a manual with it, from who? from those who invented that machine, without the Manual you will never be able to make it work, but if you use the manual you can make it work, after 10 years, 100 years, 1000 years, you give the same machine to some one else, you tell him to make it work, can he do it? no, he can`t why? cause he needs the manual, from those who made it,
So only that who invents something can make it work....,
Same thing with our Life, Allah Gave us Life and Gave us teh Manual(QURAN) without it we can`t make it work, when we need to make it work we go to him who created that Life, we don`t go to some one like YOU...


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9:58 am    November 11, 2003
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Hehehehehehehe, You made me laugh.
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9:26 am    November 11, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
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Talking about zakat and charity, Raioo needs your donations folks. Please give whatever you can: $5, $10, $20, $30, $50, $100.... so we can keep the web site alive, and enrich it with more features and capabilities. ----> Take Raioo to revision 2.0
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8:44 am    November 11, 2003
Ali
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Dear adnane:

1. Thanks for the feedback.

2. Islam 2.0 is in the requirement gathering phase right now. After that, we will move to the high level design. And then to the low level design. After that the implementation details.

3. I know that the implementation details are the stressful part of any project. I see your point about the kind of "technologies" we need to test and junit test with before we release the final product. Believe me it will be a very good release. The demand is there. Islam 1.0 is dead (No body wants to use Windows 3.1, anymore)

4. Check out Islam 1.5 at the following site: www.bahai.org. I talked to a lot of Muslims from the old release, Islam 1.0, and they are not even aware of release 1.5 (This tells me they are just too stagnated in their thoughts to be able to evolve and re-invent themselves)

5. As you can see, the only answers you get from Islam 1.0 are similar to what you said: A Imam must be a human being with a penis (I am not sure if we actually check that body part or not)

6. Yes, old timers will always resist change (you know, Windows XP vs., free Linux, open software group, open source, etc...). But change is coming and I want to be part of it.

7. Never put a period where Allah put a comma!

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

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7:21 am    November 11, 2003
Ali
257
256
continued...

7. Zakat: once a year, give money to needy people as follows: $1, 10, 100, 1000, 10000, 100000, $1million, etc...Just pick one of these amounts that you feel comfortable with and donate it to a needy person.

This is the list of needy people in order:

A. sick people

B. hungry people

C. people without a shelter

D. illiterate people

E. people who need to pay for education

F. charitable organizations

8. Ramadan: during each year:

a. If you are not sick, and over the age of 18, you can fast a minimum of one day and a maximum of 30 days.

b. You do not need to fast in sequence. you can pick any days of the year.

c. You are allowed to drink water.

e. If you are a woman and have your period, you can still fast if you want.

f. A period is NOT an issue at all. It will not be used for any excuse to deny a woman's right.

9. Every council to look at issues, must have 50% man and 50% woman.

10. Both men and women are allowed to preach (i.e., Imam and Imama)

11. If a human being makes a bad mistake (stealing, lying, killing, etc...), this human being will need to go in front of a council (see item 9) and confess to the bad deed in front of the victims. The council and the victims should decide a rehabilitation process. No arm cutting. No killing. No physical abuse.

12. No holy man allowed. No holy woman allowed. No holy books allowed.

13. No Ahadeeths are sacred. Opinions are accepted. They are only opinions.


Jazakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

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7:18 am    November 11, 2003
Ali
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255
Dear Negotiator:

Here is the draft specification for Islam 2.0:

1. Somebody/something created earth, the moon, humanity, the oceans, the skies, the universe. This somebody or something is called Allah in Arabic and God in English.

2. Humans need to look up to Allah when they need guidance and uplifting of their spirit.

A. As a human being, Allah is open to listen to you 24/7. This is called praying.

B. How to pray? anytime and anywhere.

C. No minimum prayers. No maximum prayers. No timing for the prayers. No rituals for prayers.

D. Just find a time, place, and position you are comfortable with, look up to anything that reminds you of Allah. And pray.

E. Allah will listen. No promise about responding to you.

3. A human being is allowed to marry after the age of 18 years.

4. A human being is allowed to have as spouse another human being. Only one spouse per human being at any given time.

5. A human being is allowed to divorce the spouse. All assets are divided 50/50

6. Inheritance is equal between men and women. The following order shall be applied in order:

A. The living spouse will get 100%.

B. The children get equal shares (Absolutely no difference between boys and girls)

C. If no children are available, all assets go to charitable organizations.


continued...

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9:49 pm    November 10, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
255
Ali,
What is Imama???? do you know that this word does not exist in arabic or english or any other language!!?????

If you can`t come up with a Name for a female (Imam) , how would you come up with a Quran2.0

If you allow drunk people to go to the mosque, you might as well give the right to people to go to the mosque with bickinis, and speedos,
why not, one day probably you would say well prayers are not neccessary, we can just sing and do like the christians, since the order of slah is in the Quran and might have been added., who knows, one day we will see strippers in the Mosque , I meant your Mosque, since you said we should have fun at the Mosque in one of your posts, some people don`t have fun without beers, strippers, TV, Music..., you need to please every body....,

Try to please every body and you will please no body, and see what those people will do to you in the judgment day(if you believe in it) you shouldn`t believe in it, since it`s in the bible and the Quran and the Torah.....

Allah ychafeek a3ammi

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8:42 pm    November 10, 2003
kako
254
253
hi ali
you are really screwed up the subject it will be better if you just stop replying to the message because you will not see the next ramadan. try to talk about that another not in ramadan
tehala a lhaj 2.0
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8:35 pm    November 10, 2003
Lui
253
251
Mr Ali,

It looks like we are going to lose track of our argumentative discussion, as you are starting many challenging discussions with other raiootists. I want to just tell you good luck in coming up Koran 2.0 that will eventually pushes you to make Islam 2.0. I hope that you won?t be forced to come up with Allah 2.0 too! Don?t forget; keep some statistics of how many followers you have to keep up with the competition. You never know who is going to come up with higher versions for Koran, Islam and Allah! You must admit that you are not the only smart guy out there and the three subjects are in the public domain.

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7:21 pm    November 10, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
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251
Ali, I had a discussion the other day about role of women in religious studies, in mosques as Imam. I am also intrigued by how come we don't see women in these areas. The only answer I got was that one of the criteria for Imam is that his sex which has to be a male.

At any rate, I think Ali that you have a vision about Islam version 2.0 which in my opinion is rather one of the initial versiosn of Islam, let say version 0.1

Many flexibilities you talk about Ali were the start of practicing Islam, so you want to go back to the pre-release :)

I'm afraid this is going to be tough, troublesome.. maybe one needs to figure out how to educate the customer about the product, if we agree the product is highly usable and effective, rather than moifying the product to suit the lazy and deteriorating customer. That eventually could produce a crappy product.

Man, based on your views, you'd have to start a new sect of Islam because the way it stands now, it's hard to create even a new Madhab other than the main 4, let alone go back to Islam pre-release or Islam 2.0

By the way, is it going to be tested first before releasing it to the customers? :) need to find a platform to test it in, needs to go through unit testing, integration testing, system testing, but most importantly Ali.... regression testing. Let's not forget the Acceptance test.. and the platform requirements: OS version, memory, etc... ewa that's where the sheikh and his donkey got stalled -- in the 3agaba.

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6:07 pm    November 10, 2003
Ali
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Dear BlaBla:

You asked me:

"Imam ali

Do u think it's ok to bring my beer with me to the mosque? This way I can appreciate better the "khoutba",I can do my duty and feel good about my religion"

My answer:

1. In Islam 2.0 and Koran 2.0, you are definitely welcome to the mosque, even if you had a few beers.

2. As long as you are sober and not disturbing the other people and the Imam/Imama, you will be welcome.

3. Islam is a peaceful religion. Islam is Simple. Islam must be easy. Islam is compassionate

4. If you have a problem with alcohol, Islam 2.0 will help you rid yourself of that disease and help your family cope with the treatment. That's the Islam I want to be part of.


Jazakomo Allaho Khairan Wa ssalam

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5:48 pm    November 10, 2003
Ali
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continued...

6. I say a woman can be Imama and can do a better job. She will be able to bring the social issues that are facing the society and she will definitely get problems solved (abusive husbands issues, divorce with no rights to women, children of divorce, etc..etc..)

7. And yes, an Imama will be able to clean up the mess that the fundamentalist Muslims have done in the last 1500 years.

8. ?Muslim? men ?traditions? before, during, and after the prophet?s life made up the divisions between men and woman. The good and true Islam created us equal.

9. You see Negotiator. Logic works. Islam is beautiful. Allah is beautiful. Islam is Simple. Islam is a universal religion. Let?s not complicate it with a lot of non sense.

10. Negotiator: Are you threatened by a woman becoming an Imama?

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan Wa ssalam

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5:46 pm    November 10, 2003
Ali
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Dear Negotiator:

1.When we have an Imama leading us in ?Khoutba? during Friday prayers, and she got her period. We can design Islam 2.0 as follows:

A. Have a backup Imama or Imam to take over the remainder of the ?Khotba?.

B. She can excuse herself momentarily, go to the ladies room and put on a vaginal pad (I hope that you know what is a vaginal pad, I personally like the ?always brand?, I buy it for my wife when I am shopping.)

C. If the bleeding is not intense, she can carry on with the Khoutba

D. Yes, Negotiator, a woman with a period is as beautiful as a woman without a period. Let?s stop the non sense of making women feel bad about having a period and labeling them dirty, etc..etc..etc?

E. Do you see the logic Negotiator? Very simple steps to solve a very simple issue. No complexities. No Hadeeths. No Koran verses. No Ain Abi Horayra, Ain Abi Negotiator Ain Abu Ali, Ain???.Ain.etc.etc.etc.etc?..

F. Yes Islam came very simple to Abraham and others. Fundamentalist Muslims made it complex and very useless.

2. If our Imama is pregnant, she will probably want to stay with her baby for about 3 months to a year.

3. We will watch her baby (I will be the baby sitter, this will be a good deed) while she is giving her Khoutba.

4. Yes I can imagine praying behind a woman. I do not see anything wrong with that. Islam came to you just like it came to her. What?s so special about praying behind a man?

5. If you are thinking about her butt while she is doing ?rakaa?, don?t you think if you do it to a man Imam, you will have homosexual thoughts?


continued...

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5:34 pm    November 10, 2003
BlaBla
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Imam ali
Do u think it's ok to bring my beer with me to the mosque? This way I can appreciate better the "khoutba",I can do my duty and feel good about my religion
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4:26 pm    November 10, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
247
let`s say we have a woman preacher , she is an Imam, one day she is in the khoutba, she got her Period, what would she do? what would the people do? get another imam??? since she can`t finish, or if get pregnant, and give birth, who will be the Imam for teh period she is raising her kid, can you Imagine your self praying behind a woman?? when she does ruku3 and sujud and you are behind her!!!!! is that looking good to you??
As we said before, Women can become scholars, they can give speeches, they can preach , but not during prayers, she can be an Imam leading women only, but not men..., can you imagine a woman giving a preach with her baby in her hand? why can`t women become presidents in democratic countries.

7. I will love to be able to go the Mosque with my wife and daughters, holding hand in hand, sitting in the Mosque together. Praying together. It's called being spiritual as a family! what an awesome way of being a Muslim.
You can be spiritual at home praying with your wife and daughter, but in the mosque they go with women you go with men....
8. When I say that we need Koran 2.0 instead of Koran 1.0, amend Koran 1.0 to include the above steps. Islam will be better served this way.
Really?? and you want me to take your word for it, just like that??? hmmmmm ma7chemtich katgoul hadechi? and don`t tell me that i need to give proof about this ...


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4:25 pm    November 10, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
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16.
Would you or any body here trust me flying a plane , that you are traveling in?? of course not, even if i was a pilot you might not, thinking that i might crach it to a building, so how would you want to trust any body to interpret the quran him self?? i can trust you with Math if you are a Math teacher, but can`t trust you to fly a plane, or with computers, just like i can trust a Fqih, with religion and not truist him flying a plane....

1. You ask me if I have proof. I taught you are the one with all the Koran and Ahaadeeths to prove to us that Muslim women are incapable of leading Islam.
chouf aweldi, I only need to give proofs about what i say, not about what you say, why are you changinf the subject, can`t you answer? you said:
4. I think this will definitely bring a new dimension and views to the traditional Islam. Women will definitely tame the Extremist views, bring good change, and promote Islam in a much more credible way. They will definitely teach Islam the way it's supposed to be taught: (simplicity, justice, moderation, etc...)
So answer the question, how would you be so sure??? do you know alghayb? You used the word definetly twice, so you must be very sure...., and of course to be very sure you need proof, so hatti burhanak..., or else you will be a liar.

2. Women have a softer stand on many issues. They are generally less abusive of religious power. They are moderate. Simple. And beautiful indeed.
Does that mean that they are qulified to be leaders?? any body who has a softer stand, less abusive....moderate, can be a leader??

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4:06 pm    November 10, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
245
Ali,

10.
Think about it for a second and see if this make sense to you, if you liek to be helped, that means Allah wants you to be happy and help others, HMMMM how???? is this Math??

11. .
Golden Rule !!???who said that?? and why would i believe that it is the best way?? don`t tell me cause you said so...

12.
I thought you didn`t believe in prayers, you remember? the other discussion where you were saying that prayers don`t help you need to work?? so why would you ask the creater to help you, that if you can prove that there is a creator,

14.
so why are you a Muslim if the Quran and ahadeets are not a criteria for a muslim??? where did you get your islam from?


15.
You are saying that God Gave us Guidelines? where? How? does he talk to us directly? supossing that the Quran is corrupted and ahadeets are not valid, how did you get those guidelines? where did God tell you to use your head? don`t tell me Quran, cause you know i`ll say how would you believe it if it is not 100%!! Allah wants us to change? again how do you know? he wants us to use Ijtihad, here you used a word that means you do ijtihad based on an Original thing, what is this original thing? how would we have a sentence with a comma, or a sentence at all, since it is impossible to believe that God gave us a book....
it is just confusing to see your arguments, sometimes , Quran is silly, sometimes we shouldn`t put a period in it, where God put a commo, so do you believe in it or not, you are confusing us here.

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4:01 pm    November 10, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
244
Ok Ali,
If you go back to your posts you will see(hopefully) that you are repeating the same things, and that you are not answering the questions.., you just say propositions without explanations of what it would benefits us....,

7. Having said the above items, Being a Muslim is NOT about believing 100% in the Koran and Ahadeeths. These are just silly things to argue about.

Ok ,so how is being a Muslim isn`t believing 100% in the Quran? how do you know about Islam? and if these things( as you called them) are silly why you believe in them? why you read them?
You keep saying you are a Muslim, but you think that the Quran is just silly, so why are you a muslim? I believe that we are muslims because of the Quran, we got the religion(Islam) from Quran, unless you got somewhere else....

if you are a Muslim you should believe in Allah, his Books, his angels, his prophets, the day of judgment, if you don`t believe in one of them you are not a Muslim.


8. Islam is submission to Allah. The creator of the world (How do I know he/she/it created the world? simple: somebody created the moon and the earth. that somebody is Allah for me).
Can you prove that somebody created these things ??? isn`t it like a fairy tales to believe that someone can create the moon and the sun..,


9. Islam is not submitting to the Koran, the Ahadeeth, the Sunnis, the Chiaa...These are silly items that are man made to justify the impossible
Again if you think ahadeets and Quran are silly, why you became a muslim? cause Islam is coming from Quran and ahadeets.

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2:51 pm    November 10, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
243
Wa MB llah yehdiik gouli ameen....
I didn`t say take things as they are, stop assuming that, i always say(hope you remember) that God says ( hatou burhanakoum in kuntoum sadi9in) so we should ask questions why we do this in this way, why we are not suppose to believe in this and so..., and this is the beauty of Islam, there is a reason to every thing, why we don`t eat porc, why we don`t drink alcohol, why adultry is forbidden,
But when you say you don`t think that The Quran is 100% accurate, if you have just a 1% doubt about it you shouldn`t believe in it at all, don`t say well this here is good so i`ll take it but this here i don`t like so i won`t take, if you do so you are a hypocrite, why? Because if some one lies to you once you won`t know if he is telling the truth on other times, sane here if you think there is something incorrect in the Quran , then you shoudn`t believe in the whole thing...,
Those people that Ali is saying they could have lied about it, weren`t like us, they were the prophet`s companions, they saw his miracles( miracles aren`t weird) and they knew that his message was the truth, they knew that they will die one day and they will be judged for what they have done, they feared God and nobody else,
why do we believe that this picture was made by picasso, and that graham is the one who invented the phone, and, and, and, and when it comes to Religion we start questioning it`s accuracy???
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2:49 pm    November 10, 2003
Ali
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Dear Negotiator:

1. You ask me if I have proof. I taught you are the one with all the Koran and Ahaadeeths to prove to us that Muslim women are incapable of leading Islam.

2. Women have a softer stand on many issues. They are generally less abusive of religious power. They are moderate. Simple. And beautiful indeed.

3. Having seen 1500 years of Islam under MEN, quite frankly, it has been a pathetic 1500 years indeed. Here we are in the 21st century still arguing about silly things, calling fatwas, Jihad, etc...

4. It's an insult to Islam NOT to allow women to take full responsibility in navigating Islam in the 21st century.

5. Specifically:

A. What's wrong with having a woman doing the Adan in the morning (I would love to be awakened by the beautiful voice of a young Muslim women). I am kind of tired of hearing the same old bearded man who is about to have a heart attack.

B. What is wrong with having a woman preach the Friday prayer Khotba. Isn't the message of the Khotba more important than who said it?

C. What is wrong with a women leading both men and women during Salat.

6. We Muslims claim to give women a lot of rights. What is wrong with the above rights?

7. I will love to be able to go the Mosque with my wife and daughters, holding hand in hand, sitting in the Mosque together. Praying together. It's called being spiritual as a family! what an awesome way of being a Muslim.

8. When I say that we need Koran 2.0 instead of Koran 1.0, amend Koran 1.0 to include the above steps. Islam will be better served this way.

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

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2:30 pm    November 10, 2003
Ali
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continued...

16. Some people in this forum keep shooting themselves in the foot by saying that to understand the Koran, you have study Fiqh, obtain a Phd in Islamic studies, another Phd to learn about Ahadeeth, etc...This is exactly why the Koran is too complex for a simple Muslim. God simplifies! Humans complicate!

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

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2:29 pm    November 10, 2003
Ali
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continued...

10. I know that Allah wants me to be happy and to help others as well. Because I like to be helped when I need help (i.e seeing a doctor, picking up a heavy box, etc..).

11. I also believe in the Golden Rule: "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.". This is the best way to describe a true Muslim.

12. When I need to talk to Allah, I just look up the skies, look around me at the trees, and ask the Almighty creator to help me and humanity. I do not need to recite the Koran nor Ahadeeth loud to do that. This is the beauty of Islam. But again, this is too simple for a lot of people. They just love to complicate their lives.

13. Some Muslims of today are still wasting their time telling the world that eating with you left hand is Haram. This is the kind of non sense that still exist today. I know, there is a hadeeth told by some dude, some 1500 years ago: Ain Abi Horaira, Ain Abi sobaiha, Ain Negotiator, Ain Lui, Ain,Ain,Ain.....Ain Said: You eat with your left hand you are Going to HELL.

14. Remember that we consider Abraham a Muslim. The Koran wasn't available then. So how do expect the Koran and so called Ahadeeth to be a criteria for a Muslim.

15. Never put a period where Allah put a comma! (Some people are asking what it means: Allah gave us a lot of guidelines to follow. He/She/It did not say do this PERIOD, no more discussions, end of story, etc...Allah told us to use our heads and to stop making Islam harder and confusing for regular people to understand. Allah wants us to change with times and to use Ijtihad for life situations (when you have a sentence with a comma, you can extend the sentence, i.e. Ijtihad, change, re-inventing, adapting, etc...))

continued...

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2:27 pm    November 10, 2003
Ali
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Dear Negotiator:
1. Even though I do not think that the Koran is 100% correct and accurate, I still read it. quote it. get inspired by the well written stories.

2. Some of the stories in the Koran are like fairy tales (Noah (PBUH) gathering all the animals, Jesus Christ's birth (PBUH), Mohammed's Israa Wa Almiaraj, etc...)

3. It's like watching a Disney cartoon movie. You read it, think about, and say Woh! this is cute!

4. Do I believe that these stories actually happened: I doubt it! I wasn't there, therefore I will not be able to tell 100% that the story is true. And of course you can't tell me with 100% accuracy, proof, etc...that the stories are true and actually happened

5. Therefore, you can quote as many ahadiths as you want, you know in your heart and brain that 100% accuracy of the Koran is just impossible.

6. Whether you want to admit or not, about 60% of the stories in the Koran, are based on the Torah and Bible. Since we Muslims are telling the Jews and Christians that their Holy books are not 100% correct, we are admitting as Muslims that the Koran is not 100% correct.

7. Having said the above items, Being a Muslim is NOT about believing 100% in the Koran and Ahadeeths. These are just silly things to argue about.

8. Islam is submission to Allah. The creator of the world (How do I know he/she/it created the world? simple: somebody created the moon and the earth. that somebody is Allah for me).

9. Islam is not submitting to the Koran, the Ahadeeth, the Sunnis, the Chiaa...These are silly items that are man made to justify the impossible


continued...

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1:10 pm    November 10, 2003
Lui
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216

9. Man! You keep assuming that anybody can come and add something to the Koran and everybody else will be quiet! As you mentioned people were killing each other for political gains and you think that they will not move a finger if Ibnou 3afan added a single verse?! Worst now, you are making Ibnou 3afam equal to Saddam Hussein and Khomaini! Read about what all these three people did in their life to understand the differences among them unless you have problem with history too.

10. Wow, can you prove to me that Koran is 75% accurate and the Bible is 50% accurate? How did you come up with these numbers? The Koran did not take the stories from the Bible! All the stories in Koran came directly from God to the Prophet (PBUH) through the angel Jabril (Gabriel). This makes your last argument incorrect!

11. It is never too late J I disagree with you here. Item 1 to 10 does NOT show that Koran is NOT 100% Correct!

12. Thoughts about your final points:

a. How can you inspire and take as guide line something that you believe strongly that it is not 100% correct?

b. Can you elaborate more about the comma/point statement?

c. I am with being open-minded. But not to the point of saying that the Koran is not 100% correct. This is a big statement that needs solid arguments to be behind it due to the huge effect it has on Islam as a religion.

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1:08 pm    November 10, 2003
Lui
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5. Again, I am not sure that the Koran was collected in one book 20 years after the death of the Prophet (PBUH) (I will appreciated if you can prove this fact). However, the reason for this is that people were following the footsteps of the Prophet (PBUH). He didn?t ask for it to be collected when he was alive following the main means of conserving texts in his time, which was memorization. Then, they found out that the best way to preserve Koran is to write it down. By the way, the politics that you were talking about here (sunnies, chiaa, and their madahabs) happened after the final collection of the Koran. So just tell me how can something affect something else that happened before it?!!

6. So what if not 100% of the Prophet?s (PBUH) followers memorized the Koran when he died? Are you trying to tell me that if for instance they were 100 followers, 99 memorized Koran by heart and 1 did not then Koran is incorrect? What kind of logic are you using here?!! And just tell me how did the winners succeed in imposing their version of Koran on the others? Assuming that the winners were sunnies at the time, did they succeed on getting rid of chiaa for example?

7. Man, your arguments are getting weaker and weaker! Here you are assuming that all the people that memorized Koran by heart went to the same battle and died together at once! You are assuming that the people that stayed behind to govern the big Islamic empire were ignorant about Koran?

8. Your argument number 7 does not stand which make this argument don?t stand too. I think that I am following correctly your logic here :)

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1:05 pm    November 10, 2003
Lui
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Chrif Ali,

1. Now you are taking a different path on showing that the Koran is not 100% correct. So you are thinking that the Prophet (PBUH) gave us the wrong Koran? If I follow your argument correctly, this makes Islam a made up religion! Then, how are you following a made up religion by considering yourself a Muslim? When I mentioned that the Prophet was illiterate and truthful, I wanted to stress the fact that it was very difficult for him to add or come up with verses for the Koran.

2. Man! You jump too fast from one subject to another! You are refuting my arguments about the correctness of Koran based on making the Prophet (PBUH) a liar. If you assume that, then our discussion becomes ?Was the Prophet (PBUH) a liar or not?? and not ?Is the Koran 100% correct?.

3. When I said parts of the Koran were written down, I didn?t mean that some of the Koran was not written down at all! What I meant is that not one person wrote the whole Koran at once for a simple reason, which is the fact that the Koran was not revealed at once!

4. This argument stands correct if those people were memorizing something else than Koran! In the Arabic literature, we have poems that were written by poets that lived long time before the Prophet (PBUH). How come we still have them now in their original form? Don?t tell me that people along the time sat down to add up any parts that were missing from the poems! Your problem is that you are making what might be reasonable look like a real fact and base you conclusions upon it.

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12:17 pm    November 10, 2003
mb
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if we think the way he does, Then nothing is possible, every thing will be wrong.., every thing can be questioned....., nothing is absolute.....

Nego,
again u are telling us to take it as it is....no questions ..no doubts....we just have to believe the coran because of some wierd unexplained miracles...everything can be questioned and has to be questioned....asking questions doesn t mean we don t believe in god ...i don t think the coran is 100% accurate ...wa ma3akla 7ta ach klit lbareh...and u expect ppl to remember ayat and sourat:))) heard 20 years earlier....just can t believe that...when u know that changing one little preposition can change the meaning of the aya...
ama dak l hadith ...ghir khelini sakta ...3an abi....etc...a bunch of ppl telling the story...try to tell something to a friend ...and tell her/him to tell few other ppl about it....toi t as dis blanc...mli tewsel l la derniere personne l histoire parle de noir...koun chwiya logike a sahbi....

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11:43 am    November 10, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
234
I won`t get nervous...., don`t worry
But i just noticed how Ali is trying to impress people with these new Ideas...., that doesn`t make sense...,
create new Quran, don`t believe the Prophet(PBUH) and don`t believe what his companions said, and then he tells you That God wants you to be good,, how the heck do you know that? what book did he get that from? isn`t possible that that book is corrupted as well???

if we think the way he does, Then nothing is possible, every thing will be wrong.., every thing can be questioned....., nothing is absolute.....

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10:56 am    November 10, 2003
BlaBla
233
Wow if women become judges in any Islamic country,I think that would be the end of the world as we know it. Wo know maybe they will castrate all men because of the past injustices they have suffred.I can see why Negociator is getting nervous.
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10:35 am    November 10, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
232
You said:
3. Let's be open about the meaning of Holy books and religions. It's how we treat each other and live that matters!

If Only how we treat each other that matters, why do we need another Quran?

New Islam, hmmmmmm
well see, God said (inna nazzalna addikra wa inna lahou la7afidoun)
so far more than 1400 years , and still the Quran is only one.....,
people tried like you to look smart and try to invent other islam that will be like christianity, when ever something doesn`t go with their desire they change it, but they didn`t succeed, i`m Glad i know you won`t succeed......I trust God`s word more than yours.....

·

10:31 am    November 10, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
231
4. I think this will definitely bring a new dimension and views to the traditional Islam. Women will definitely tame the Extremist views, bring good change, and promote Islam in a much more credible way. They will definitely teach Islam the way it's supposed to be taught: (simplicity, justice, moderation, etc...)

Do you have a proof ?? how in the world would you say that women will teach Islam the way it`s supposed to ..????? wach katfekkar b3a9lek??? you don`t believe in things that happened 1400 years ago because you don`t trust the stories, and still you believe in something that hasn`t happened Yet....,
I figured that you are just talking for the heck of it, you believe in Nothing but your self, you think you are very very smart, and you can question every thing people say , but you when you say something we should take it the way it is, so why?? would i trust you, or any body else, ??? aren`t we all humans??? we all didn`t know any thing when we were born??

You want us to create another Quran version 2, and invent other laws..., and you are thinking wow, that`s the top and nothing is better than that, are you Better than the rest of people? you don`t want us to believe in the Prophet(PBUH) or the Quran, but still make another Quran, so how would i believe in that,
every thing is Written by men/women, so why would I believe in what you say and what i think ???

why are you telling me jazakoum allahu khayran???, who is Allah why is he gonna give me something? did he ever give me any thing?? how do you know God exists if you never saw him, how do you know
You said:

·

10:29 am    November 10, 2003

Yaz Lagouzi (Negotiator) message
230
Ali,
I`ve read all your Posts and guess what buddy, you wrote all this to say only one thing:
you think the Quran and ahadiths are not 100%accurate, and that we need to reinvent Islam,
You said that Allah wants you and me to live a good life, to help each other, think of him when we need guidance, etc....
don`t you see some contradictions in here ?? don`t believe the companions of the Prophet(PBUH) because probably they didn`t hear well, or the prophet(PBUH) him self didn`t hear well, But you say that Allah wants you to think about him when you need guidance/help, how is that possible??? did you study this in Math?? think about God when you need guidance ???? isn`t this some sort of a miracle? Allah wants you to be good??? how do you know ? did he tell you? if so can you give us a proof? Or at least Give us a Proof that God Exists...., you questioned teh accuracy of every thing but still you believe in the existance of God!!! HOW can you give me a proof of what you said ???
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10:08 am    November 10, 2003
oasienne
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anonymous was me actually:)
yeah iwas so glad too, enough barrers vive le nouvel islam(bon je suis trop optimiste l
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9:04 am    November 10, 2003
Ali
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Dear Anonymous

1. I am glad to hear that a Muslim Moroccan woman was given the opportunity to give a lecturer like this.

2. Islam should allow women to do a lot more: being judges, equality in inheritance, and being leaders in Mosques.

3. Now just imagine with me how awesome Islam would be when:

A. you hear the beautiful voice of a young Muslim women giving the call to prayer (Adan).

B. Going to a Friday prayer and listening to "Khoutba" by a woman

C. Having a woman lead us in prayer during Salat (Imama)

4. I think this will definitely bring a new dimension and views to the traditional Islam. Women will definitely tame the Extremist views, bring good change, and promote Islam in a much more credible way. They will definitely teach Islam the way it's supposed to be taught: (simplicity, justice, moderation, etc...)

5. I see absolutely nothing wrong with having women being part of this new Islam.

6. As it stands right now, 50% of Muslim women are unable to contribute to the evolution and the re-inventing of Islam. This means that Islam is only 50% or less efficient.

7. I know and I heard the usual arguments: Women are "naqisato aklin wa deen", women are too sexy to be Imama (men will focus on her butt instead of the prayer), God said women are not allowed to do this, blablabla....and the list goes on!

8. Never put a period where Allah put a comma!

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

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8:44 am    November 10, 2003
Ali
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continued...

12. Example: the Christians are using music as a tool to send and feed the Christian messages. Yes go ahead, shake your boody baby! but you are still listening to Christian messages. If you visit some of their churches, you will notice that they dance, sing, laugh, live,...

13. Now compare that with the Muslims: Men in the front. Women in the back. No laughing. No talking. No singing (Haram!!!!Hell!Haram!!Hell!!). No dancing (Haram!!!!Hell!Haram!!Hell!!). And during Friday prayers, it gets very boring and annoying listening to the same stupid topics (Aaah we Muslims are going to heaven! Aaaah the Jews betray!!blablablabla, complete hypocrisy)

14. A person needs to go the mosque to have fun and come out of the mosque cheered up and in very good spirit. Instead, you have these Imams who keep scaring the Hell out of people by describing how horrible Hell is! how if they don't do this and that in a specific order, they will end up cooking hotdogs in Hell. Boy, it's depressing! no wonder why our youth are looking for spirituality somewhere else!

15. This is the reason why Islam is in serious decline. I know that every now and then you hear that Islam is the fastest growing religion in north America (true, but it's due to Muslim immigrant not new converts.)

16. The current Muslim leaders have failed us because they tend to be old, traditionalists, afraid to experiment with new ways of teaching Islam in a fun way, and authoritarian in nature (typical mentality of hey! I am the man, look I have a long beard and a very dark mark on my forehead because I pray a lot!!!). They do not relate well with the young generation.

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa ssalam

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8:43 am    November 10, 2003
Ali
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Dear oasienne,
1. Thanks for the feedback.

2. Thanks to Allah, I (with all due respect and down to earth attitude towards others) am very fortunate to have a very good math and engineering background.

3. I do use logic in my posts (maybe because of the math background).

4. When it comes to debates about religion matters, I choose to be on the logic side.

5. Specifically, when it comes to Islam and Muslims, I feel that this whole religion has been hijacked from us by the fundamentalist Muslims

6. We need to claim it back.

7. As you probably notice in this forum, we have contributors such as Negotiator (I love you Negotiator) who quote the Koran and Hadeeths and put a period on many Koran stories. This is unfortunate because it means that Islam and Koran are not open to critical thinking (Hence, you get Khomeini and Taliban).

8. I also feel that Islam has been experiencing a horrible stagnation in time. Many contributors in this forum think that Shariaa/Koran/Hadeeths are the ONLY way.

9. I say, let's re-invent Islam. Let's bring it back to the 21st century.

10. The current way Islam is being preached is old and very ineffective. That is why the "Muslim" youth of today are saying the Hell with Islam, the Hell with Koran, the Hell with Hadeeths.

11. If you follow events around the world, I think that Christianity and Judaism are kicking some serious Islam butt. Why? it's very simple: These religions cater to their audience based on the current time and mentality.

continued...

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6:19 am    November 10, 2003

Adnane Ben. message
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Very interesting account Lui, very interesting indeed!
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2:44 am    November 10, 2003
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hey did you know that IN THE DOUROUSS HASSANIA OF LAST WEEK, A WOMAN WAS DOING THE LECTURE AND HER SPEECH WAS BRILLIANT.GOOD NEWS FOR MORROCAN WOMEN!TBARKALLAH 3LIHOUM!
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12:08 am    November 10, 2003