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SPIRITUAL
Adnane Ben.
Boston USA
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226
comments.
Women Lead Prayers in USA
12:00:00 AM Friday Mar 25, 2005



I hope these recent events, women leading the friday prayers in NYC and Boston, result in Muslims reviewing their commitment to faith and proper practice. Usually society always needs exceptions, for exceptions make the normal clearer to the eyes. Commitment to faith, and proper practice.. I mean better understand their creator, better underdtand their religion and practice it consistently, and better provide and treat women, allow them to feel proud of being part of the spiritual sphere. I still think the years have sidetracked women - and it's time they align with men spiritually, intellectually and socially without necessarilly taking this alignment litterally.. and applying it to prayer shoulder to shoulder.. that would be missing the point and getting trapped in incorrect implementation of alignment and gender equality.

Do you think Muslims should blame these women? Are these women challenging Fiqh scholars? challenging God? or are they merely a symptom of a bigger gollum?

Some mosques truely need to correct their management of women space. Many women grow angry and offended by mosque management and how their seperation from men is highly exagerrated. In many mosques, women are alloted smaller rooms in mosque basement, backrooms etc. Sometimes they don't have access to the visual experiences of a speech, the quietness of the men's space. But beyond mosque management, what is it that motivates these women so much to decide to change the praying equation in the mosque?

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7:27 am    January 26, 2008
3abir sabil
226
Ali;
If I understand your issue,I'll truy to summurize things and comment as folow:
1/You prefer to limit yourself to the Qoran to practice Islam according to your understanding without help.
It is up to you,but it's not easy to have a clear idea if you are luking some knowledge in theology and arabic language of that era.However I'll add that Islam is like music:educated and not educated people know about it,but each one in its manner and its level.

2/I see that al Bukhari,Muslim an Tarmidi are not references for you.But if you read all thier work(not just some pieces),and according to their time,you will find that they deserve our respect.

3/It seems that you have difficulties to make links between alwa7y(God message),the prophet and those who witnessed his life,behavior and sayings !!
OK,even prophets have doubted at their beggining before they found their way.But it wasn't just doubt for doubt.

I hope you are asking questions in ordre to understand the truth.If so,you will find all the answers you are looking for.However you have to remembre that the "pilpole method" called the "byzanto-talmudique arguing" was created in polska during the eighteen centry just to magnify some tiny details in ordre to hide or to corrupt the foundations of the religion.

Have nice day

·

1:17 am    January 25, 2008

mostafa message
225
ليه بقى مكملوش جميلهم
أولا الصف الأول ناقص من اليمين
كان المفروض واحدة من الستات اللى ورا تكمل الصف
وبعدين ليه يأذنو كانو المفروض يدقو الجرس بتاع الكنيسه لألأ أصدي المسجد
و كمان كان علشان المتطرفيين الوحشييين -اخص عليهم-يتعلموا كان لازم يخلو الرجاله في اخر صف أو يلغو الرجاله...وأهو برضوه أحسن
والله
شر البلية مايضحك
·

12:59 am    January 25, 2008

mostafa message
224
did you see that video above
the woman asked that all the KOLL AL DYANAT TOHTARAM KHSOSAYATHA why is not for islam
did not you know why that? i told you as MOHAMED PBUH said
توشك أن تتداعى عليكم الأمم كما تتداعى الأكلة على قصعتها
as we are more tha 1000 million muslem but we are so weak
i have not not to say just
AL ISLAM will not suffer from those insects as it is the DEEN of ALLAH
·

12:35 am    January 25, 2008

mostafa message
223
Adnane B
as my english is not so good so i just want to reply on you as i undestand your message
first Alhamd lellah ana OSLALLY the 5 prayeres on al game3 (Masjed) and i will keep on them until i will die I S ALLAH
second
i hope to believe your said (I personnally faith in the faith in the faithfull scholars and the sahaba)
third Allah said in the holy Ko\\\\\\\'an that wthat the rasoul get for you take it and what he ask you not to do do not do it
4th the sahabba, Muslim,Albo5ary,and all those great men that we now NAKHTALEFO FEEHEM were not to lie about MOHAMED PBUH.
if they lied about him,if it was the truth ,i am sure the islam was not be able to have its spread all over the world ,i am sure we would not be able to konw about them as they would die with their lies.
last thing i hope you to know is that ALBOKHARY and MUSLEM do their best trying to collect the HADITHs of the prophet and ectract the HADITH that the liers put, so it is not fair to discuss about them are they trusted or not. IT IS NOT FAIR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
·

7:37 pm    October 20, 2005

Adnane Ben. message
222
220
you love to enumerate, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.. Actually do you even pray your daily prayers?
·

8:55 am    October 20, 2005

Adnane Ben. message
221
220
The argument you are most proud of is weak. Forget about the several salt-and-pepper arguments you throw in your posts randomly and ask me to grade you on those. You use them to cover up the weak argument you started out with.

You don't have faith in Hadith, therefore you don't acknowledge Sunnah. So, you are left with the quran to find guidance. So far, it's ok I guess. We hope you contribute to helping humanity understand the Quran better. But, if you are refuting the Ahadiths on the basis that they were written after Prophet Mohammed passed away and they could be wrong, so was the Quran. It was gathered from pieces of cloth, leather and bones, and from the memory of people and written after the prophet passed away. So based on your lack of faith in Sahaba and the faithfull of that time who recorded the ahadiths and the quran, How come you are not refuting the Quran itself?

it seems to me that if you're refuting the ahadith and sunnah, you would also refute the Quran. And then what would you be left with? I answer you: you will be left with so much doubt and uncertainty, which very much explains the nature of your posts on raioo. That is fine, it's ok to be doubtfull and willing to find out the truth. What I am concerned about is you being doubtfull and engaging in a sarcastic discussion about the matter you doubt with an intention to render people doubtfull.

I personnally have faith in the faithfull scholars and the sahaba (close friends of the prophet) who agreed on and recorded the Ahadiths and the Quran. I also find refuge in the books that help understand the Quran and the ahadiths.

Again, if you are here to misguide people, a3oudou billah Mink.

·

6:53 am    October 19, 2005
resunifaw (aka ALI)
220
219
Dear adnane:

1. I promised you 4 months ago that I will give you a clear, detailed, and complete answer based on the Holy Koran.

2. I did provide you with that answer.

3. You seem to ignore the wuduu order from Allah and focus on a tangent (clean)

4. Can you please reread my answer and tell me which items are wrong, false, not clear, etc...and I will clarify it if possible.

5. For the record, sorry if my arguments seem a little bit direct, harsh, offensive, etc...it's a style and it does not even come close to what the Evangelical Christians do to Muslims in their arguments against Islam. So maybe this is a way to get the Muslim readers used to a little bit of "Evangelical Christian ways of responding to and arguing with Muslims"

6. Here is an answer to your latest response:

-----------------------------------
Adnane said:

Ali - First of all, and I have pointed this to you before, you bring up the verse of wudu incompletely, and you cut off the last words of it in order to prove your own point. What you are omitting is the part when God says he doesn't want to overwhelm people with wudu, all he wants is for us to be clean. The keyword, the purpose even, of wudu, the subject of the verse is "Tahara" cleaniness.
-----------------------------------

1. I did read the whole verse. It talks about Tayammum, etc?The relevant part is the wudu.

2. If it?s incomplete, here?s the whole verse and tell me where it?s not clear to you what wudu is supposed to be!

Chapter 5, verse 6:

???? ???????? ????????? ???????? ????? ???????? ????? ????????? ??????????? ??????????? ?????????????? ????? ???????????? ???????????? ????????????? ?????????????? ????? ???????????? ????? ??????? ??????? ?????????????? ????? ?????? ???????? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ??????? ????? ?????????? ???? ??????????? ????????? ?????? ????????? ???? ?????????????? ???????? ???????? ???????????? ????????????? ???????????? ??????? ??? ??????? ?????? ?????????? ????????? ????? ?????? ???????? ??????? ??????????????? ??????????? ?????????? ?????????? ??????????? ????????????

4. The purpose of the verse is for Allah to define to Muslims HOW they are supposed to perform the ritual of WUDUU before doing their SALAT.

5. If Allah intended just ?clean?, here is a hypothetical verse: ?Dudes, take a shower before doing your Salat?

6. Allah was specific and detailed in his command. The prophet did his job to convey the message that he received from Allah.

7. However, as usual, Bukhari, Muslim, and company, decided to take Allah for stupid, and started lying and modifying about the Holy Koran.

8. The result of the Bukhari Islam, the Al-Termedi Islam, etc?is that adnane, resunifaw, Negotiator, Louis Faraquan, etc?all Muslims, but they are doing Wudu in different ways (contradicting the Holy Koran)

9. So here?s a question for you adnane: Read the above verse, and tell us what was Allah?s order for wudu (do not talk to us about Tayammum, do not talk to us about ghusl, f.arting, pooping, etc?just WUDUU!. Please itemize your answer with numbers so that we can analyze specific sections of your answer.)

----------------------------------
Adnane said:

Again, I ask\, did the prophet not deliver the verse? and did he not maintain the intent of the verse which is for the person preparing to pray to be "clean" ?
----------------------------------

1. Yes, the prophet delivered the message. It?s his Job and ONLY job to deliver the ?BALAGH? (Holy Koran)

2. The purpose of the verse is very clear: Before doing Salat, perform Wudu as follows:

??.A. Wash face
??.B. Wash hands to the elbows
??.C. Wipe head
??.D. Wipe feet to the ankles

3. Since you keep focusing on the ?clean? part, here is a suggestion:

A. Take a shower (to be very clean)
B. And when it?s time to do you Salat, obey Allah and do your Wuduu as Allah prescribed
??.C. Wash face
??.D. Wash hands to the elbows
??.E. Wipe head
??.F. Wipe feet to the ankles

----------------------------

Adnane said:
Second, and this is important I want you to lend me your ears and your eyes. If prophet Mohammed modified the intent or rather disobeyed God, as you suggested, how do you explain that God did not get upset at him and hence Stopped at once sending him more Quran verses? You know that God kept on sending the prophet verses until the Quran was complete.
If the prophet allowed himself to disobey the instructions of God, misrepresent the deep meaning of the message to us, I don't think God would have entrusted him with further messages.
---------------------------------------
1. Dear adnane, I do not believe I said that the prophet misrepresented or misguided the Muslims.
2. What I was explaining is that Bukhari, Muslim, Al-Termedi and their volumes of Hadeeths, misrepresented and misguided the Muslims.
3. The above so called scholars, attributed Hadeeths to the prophet that are false. They disobeyed the prophet?s order which is not to write his Hadeeths and they also disobeyed Allah because the Holy Koran is the BEST HADEETH, COMPLETE, DETAILED, CLEAR, AND AN ANSWER TO EVERYTHING.
Chapter 7, verse 185:
?????????? ??????? ???????? ????????????
"In which hadeeth after this will they believe?"
-------------------------------
Adnana said:
Listen, if you just want to be stubborn for the heck of it, I am just reminding you kindly of what I know. It is between you and God if you choose to implement your version of Islam or no Islam at all. If you are here for a purpose to misguide people then A3oudou billahi mink. If you are here as a good Muslim with good intentions to discuss difficult questions you have, you need to weight what you say. You have been uttering things that maybe heavy insults to the prophet.
-------------------
1. Let?s stick to the topic of Wudu
2. I have presented the verse, the clear verse of wuduu.
3. So far, people know that it?s clear because I have yet to receive a Koran based refute to my argument
4. And my argument is this:
??A. Allah said: The Koran is COMPLETE, CLEAR, DETAILED, AND AN ANSWER TO EVERYTHING (see verses in my last post) (TRUE OR FALSE)
??B. The prophet (pbuh) had one Job and ONLY one job: deliver the Koran from Allah to the Muslims. (THE BALAGH) (see verses in my last post) (TRUE OR FALSE)
??C. As Muslims, we are commanded to follow Allah and the Message of the prophet (Holy Koran) (see verses in my last post) (TRUE OR FALSE)
??D. Chapter 5, verse 6 describes the ritual of wuduu as prescribed by Allah (see verses in my last post) (TRUE OR FALSE)
??E. Allah did not authorize Bukhari, Muslim, Al-Termedi, etc?to AMMEND (see Wuduu Hadeeths) the Holy Koran (see verses in my last post) (TRUE OR FALSE)
??F. Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) did not authorize Bukhari, Muslim, Al-Termedi, etc?to AMMEND the Holy Koran (see verses in my last post) (TRUE OR FALSE)
??G. The Muslims of Today (Bukhari Muslim sects, Al-Termedi Muslim sects, etc?) are not following the Wuduu commandment from Allah (Chapter 5, verse 6) (see verses in my last post) (TRUE OR FALSE)

5. If any one of the above arguments is not true, let me know!

6. I am not misguiding people, Bukhari, Al-Termedi, etc?are the ones who are misguiding the Muslims.

7. My intentions are very pure: The Koran is the best and only Hadeeth allowed by Allah and his prophets (including Mohammed (pbuh))!

7. Here is a verse from Allah describing my argument:

Chapter 25, verse 30:

??????? ?????????? ??? ????? ????? ??????? ?????????? ????? ?????????? ??????????

"O my Lord! Truly my people took this Qur'an for just foolish nonsense."

·

10:20 pm    October 18, 2005

Adnane Ben. message
219
218
Ali - First of all, and I have pointed this to you before, you bring up the verse of wudu incompletely, and you cut off the last words of it in order to prove your own point. What you are omitting is the part when God says he doesn't want to overwhelm people with wudu, all he wants is for us to be clean. The keyword, the purpose even, of wudu, the subject of the verse is "Tahara" cleaniness. Again, I ask\, did the prophet not deliver the verse? and did he not maintain the intent of the verse which is for the person preparing to pray to be "clean" ?

Second, and this is important I want you to lend me your ears and your eyes. If prophet Mohammed modified the intent or rather disobeyed God, as you suggested, how do you explain that God did not get upset at him and hence Stopped at once sending him more Quran verses? You know that God kept on sending the prophet verses until the Quran was complete.

If the prophet allowed himself to disobey the instructions of God, misrepresent the deep meaning of the message to us, I don't think God would have entrusted him with further messages.

Listen, if you just want to be stubborn for the heck of it, I am just reminding you kindly of what I know. It is between you and God if you choose to implement your version of Islam or no Islam at all. If you are here for a purpose to misguide people then A3oudou billahi mink. If you are here as a good Muslim with good intentions to discuss difficult questions you have, you need to weight what you say. You have been uttering things that maybe heavy insults to the prophet.

·

9:55 am    October 17, 2005
resunifaw (aka ALI)
218
217
Dear Adnane:

Work, Life, Family, Priorities, and Unplanned Events, etc...are to blame!

Anyhow! Nice to be back for some RAMADAN RELIGIOUS LESSONS

BETTER LATE THAN NEVER!

(The formatting got screwed!)

So go here for the correct format:

http://www.raioo.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=2082

·

9:48 am    October 17, 2005
resunifaw (aka ALI)
217
214
[quote="adnane"]

you said you were going to reply to my questions. It has been more than 4 or 5 months now.
[/quote]

[quote]adnane wrote:
QUESTION:
Can you tell me HOW is Prophet Mohammed or the ahadiths sa7i7a narrated by the companions, overriding that verse if the main objective of the verse is captured at the end of it which is to be clean? If you can convince me with an answer that will be interesting.[/quote]

01. If you search the Holly Koran from start to finish, you will not find the word ?[b]Wuduu[/b]? (ablution) mentioned anywhere. Wuduu is an Arabic term invented to describe what Allah said about cleaning ourselves before we perform the Salat.

02. Every time we perform the Salat, we [b]MUST [/b]do ablution (wuduu) as prescribed by Allah in the Holy Koran.

03. Let?s establish what Allah said about ablution (Wuduu) in the Holy Koran:

[quote][b]Chapter 5, verse 6:[/b]

[size=18]???? ???????? ????????? ???????? ????? ???????? ????? ????????? ??????????? ??????????? ?????????????? ????? ???????????? ???????????? ????????????? ?????????????? ????? ????????????[/size]?

"O you who believe, when you get up to perform the Salat prayers you shall wash your faces, your hands up to the elbows, wipe your heads and your feet..."
[/quote]

04. In simple terms, this is what Allah said in the Holy Koran:

??.A. Wash you face
??.B. Wash your hands up to the elbows
??.C. Wipe your heads
??.D. Wipe your feet

05. We know that the Holy Koran is [b]complete, clear, detailed, and an answer to everything[/b]:

[quote][b]Chapter 6, verse 114[/b]:

?[size=18]?????? ??????? ???????? ?????????? ?????????? ???????????[/size]

?He who has sent down unto you the Book (The Quran), explained in detail."
[/quote]

[quote][b]Chapter 16, verse 89[/b]:

?[size=18]???????????? ???????? ?????????? ?????????? ???????? ???????[/size]

?He and We have sent down to thee the Book explaining all things."
[/quote]

06. The above two verses are very clear. Allah said that the Koran is complete, detailed, and an answer to everything.

07. Since Allah is smart, he prescribed (commandments of Allah) a very simple and clear ablution for all Muslims to follow. However, today?s ?Muslim" masses, refuse to be satisfied with the commandments of Allah. They decided to uphold the commandments of men, such as the various imams and scholars (Bukhari, Muslim, Al-Termedi, etc?)

08. As a result, today?s Muslims have a prolonged ablution that depends on which "sect" they follow. These sects have resulted from the various opinions of the "imams? as to how the Prophet is supposed to have done his ablution. Thus, they fell in Satan's trap by disobeying the clear ablution commands of their Creator (Allah).

09. This is the [b]ONLY mission [/b]that Allah gave to Prophet Mohammed (pbuh):

[quote][b]Chapter 6, verse 54[/b]:

?[size=18]????? ????? ?????????? ?????? ?????????? ???????????[/size]

?The Messenger?s duty is only to preach the clear (Koran Message).?
[/quote]

10. So, Prophet Mohammed?s [b]ONLY mission [/b]is preaching to the Muslims the clear message of the Holy Koran.

11. Now, this what Allah said in the Holy Koran:

[quote][b]Chapter 54, verse 7[/b]:

?[size=18]????? ???????? ?????????? ????????? ????? ????????? ?????? ??????????[/size]

"Whatever the Messenger gives you, accept it, and from whatever he forbids you, keep back"
[/quote]

12. Since Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) told us in the Holy Koran to perform ablution according to the commandments of Allah, we should follow those commandments from Allah as prescribed in the Holy Koran, which is [b]complete, clear, detailed, and an answer to everything[/b] (otherwise Allah is a liar!).

13. If Allah described the ablution as described above, then Prophet Mohammed?s mission and commandments from Allah is to tell the Muslims this is what Allah said in the Holy Koran about ablution:

??.A. Wash your face
??.B. Wash your hands up to the elbows
??.C. Wipe your heads
??.D. Wipe your feet

14. If Prophet Mohammed [b]ALLEGEDLY [/b]said (and for the record he did not say that at all!) that ablution is performed as follows:

??.A. Wash your hands up to the elbows THREE TIMES
??.B. Wash your mouth THREE TIMES
??.C. Wash your nose THREE TIMES
??.D. Wash your face THREE TIMES
??.E. Wash your ears THREE TIMES
??.F. Wipe your feet THREE TIMES
??.G. Wipe your heads
??.H. Wash your neck

Then you have to agree that [b]Prophet Mohammed DESOBEYED ALLAH[/b] by not conveying the TRUE KORAN to people. [b]Allah is a wise DUDE[/b]! HE knows what to prescribe and what NOT to prescribe to humanity. If the prophet did in fact change the ablution commandments from Allah, then Prophet Mohammed has made a mistake and he is going to answer to Allah for that mistake. I will guess that today?s Muslims are not following [b]TRUE ISLAM [/b]because of the [b]NEGLIGENCE of Prophet Mohammed [/b](pbuh)

15. Now is a good time to remind you of what Allah said about those who use [b]OTHER BOOKS OF LAW [/b](Hadeeth Sahih books from Bukhari, Muslim, Al-Termedi, Imam Malik, etc?instead of using the only [b]TRUE HADEETH: THE HOLY KORAN[/b]):

[quote][b]Chapter 7, verse 185[/b]:

?[size=18]????????? ??????? ???????? ????????????[/size]

"In which hadeeth after this will they believe?"
[/quote]

[quote][b]Chapter 6, verse 114[/b]:

?[size=18]?????????? ?????? ????????? ??????? ?????? ??????? ???????? ?????????? ?????????? ??????????[/size]?

"Shall I seek other than God as a source of law and judgment when He is the One who has sent down the Book to you in detail?"
[/quote]

[quote][b]Chapter 68, verse 36-37[/b]:

[size=18]???? ?????? ?????? ???????????
???? ?????? ??????? ????? ???????????[/size]?

"What is wrong with you? How do you judge? Do you have another book which you study?"
[/quote]

16. Now, let the Sahih Hadeeths show begin:

[quote][b]Sahih Muslim, Book #42, Hadeeth #7147[/b]:

Abu Sa'id Khudri reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: [b]Do not take down anything from me, and he who took down anything from me except the Qur'an, he should efface [/b]that and narrate from me, for there is no harm in it and he who attributed any falsehood to me-and Hammam said: I think he also said:" deliberately" -he should in fact find his abode in the Hell-Fire.

[b]Reference[/b]:[url]http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/042.smt.html#042.7147[/url]
[/quote]

17. The above Hadeeth is [b]SAHIH[/b]. This means Muslims should believe in it. If we believe in this Hadeeth, this means that all the other Hadeeths written by Imam Muslim himself, by Bukhari, by Al-Termedi, etc?should be [b]EFFACED [/b]and thrown in a [b]TRASH CAN[/b].

18. Since only a subset of Muslims (also known as [b]MUSLIM SECT[/b]) believes in IMAM Muslim, we have a problem. The above SAHIH Hadeeth is [b]NOT CONSIDERED Sahih by other Muslim sects[/b] (Imam Malik, Imam Shafee, Bukhari, Shiaa, etc?)

19. Now we have a [b]MESS [/b]that needs to be [b]CLEANED[/b] (Wuduu?).

20. Let?s search [b]THE MOTHER OF ALL HADEETH BOOKS [/b]and see how complicated, funny, the math does not add up, the sequence of wudu rituals does not match, confusing, etc? (ablution)!

21. Let?s all be reminded that Allah [b]is a smart DUDE[/b]. [b]He never prescribed THREE TIMES[/b]. He never prescribed a [b]SEQUENCE[/b]. He made [b]ablution SIMPLE [/b]because he knows that humans do forget and do not like a complicated religious ritual. This is what Allah said:

[quote][b]Chapter 2, verse 185[/b]:

[size=18]???????? ?????? ?????? ????????? ????? ??????? ?????? ?????????[/size]?

?Allah desires ease for you, and He does not desire for you difficulty?
[/quote]

22. [quote][b]Imam Malik Muwatta (Book #2, Hadith #2.1.7):[/b]

Yahya said that Malik was asked what a man should do if, when he did wudu, he [b]forgot [/b]and washed his [b]face [/b]before he had rinsed his [b]mouth[/b], or washed his [b]forearms [/b][b]before [/b]he had washed his [b]face[/b]. He said, "If someone washes his [b]face before rinsing his mouth[/b], he should rinse his mouth and not wash his face [b]again[/b]. If someone washes his [b]forearms [/b]before his face, however, he should [b]wash [/b]his [b]forearms [/b]again so that he has washed them after his face. This is if he is still near the place (of wudu)."
[/quote]

First of all, notice that the above Hadeeth is [b]not attributed to Prophet Mohammed[/b]. In other words we have [b]an OPINION from Imam Malik[/b]. Do you see what happens when humans introduce [b]Math [/b]and [b]Sequence [/b]to the simple ablution (Wudu) prescribed by Allah in the Koran? Don?t you think that Allah knew that [b]humans will screw up the math and sequence of the ablution rituals[/b]?. For the record, the above Hadeeth was not attributed ([b]CHAINED[/b]) to prophet Mohammed (pbuh). [b]Use it at your own risk[/b]!

23. [quote][b]Imam Malik Muwatta (Book #2, Hadith #2.1.2):[/b]

Yahya related to me from Malik from Abu'zZinad from al-Araj from Abu Hurayra that the [b]Messenger [/b]of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "When you do wudu, [b]snuff water into your nose [/b]and blow it out, and if you use stones to clean your private parts use an [b]odd number[/b]."
[/quote]

Now [b]mathematics [/b]is involved here: [b]ODD vs. EVEN [/b]number of stones. Allah help us! Do we need a master?s degree in [b]mathematics [/b]to do ablution! (What?s next: [b]prime numbers, factorial, logarithmic functions to do ablution[/b]?)

24. [quote][b]Imam Malik Muwatta (Book #2, Hadith #2.5.19)[/b]:

Yahya related to me from Malik from Zayd Aslam from Ata ibn Yasar from Abdullah Abbas that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, [b]ate a shoulder of lamb and then prayed without doing wudu[/b].
[/quote]

Now these guys claim that the prophet (pbuh) prayed without doing ablution. If that is true, then [b]prophet Mohammed (pbuh) did not follow Allah?s commandments[/b]: ?When you do your SALAT, Wash?.. (Do your ablution)?. So, contrary to what today?s Muslims are doing, if we follow the Holy Koran, we must do ablution [b]EVERYTIME before SALAT[/b]. Allah never said that if you do ablution during the morning and you spend the whole day without peeing, [b]f.arting[/b], [b]pooping[/b], [b]u.rinating[/b], etc?you are allowed to do every SALAT without doing ablution (wudu) again!

25. [quote][b]Imam Malik Muwatta (Book #2, Hadith #2.6.31):[/b]

Yahya related to me from Malik from Zayd ibn Aslam from Ata ibn Yasar from Abdullah as-Sanabihi that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "A trusting slave does wudu and as he rinses his mouth the [b]wrong actions [/b]leave it. As he cleans his nose the wrong actions leave it. As he washes his face, the wrong actions leave it, [b]even from underneath his eyelashes[/b]. As he washes his hands the wrong actions leave them, [b]even from underneath his fingernails[/b]. As he wipes his head the wrong actions leave it, even from his ears. And as he washes his feet the wrong actions leave them, [b]even from underneath the toenails of both his feet[/b]." He added, "Then his walking to the mosque and his prayer are an extra reward for him." [/quote]

[b]NO COMMENTS![/b]

26. [quote][b]Imam Malik Muwatta (Book #2, Hadith #2.8.45)[/b]:

Yahya related to me from Malik that Said ibn Abd ar-Rahman ibn Ruqash said, "I saw Anas ibn Malik come and squat and urinate.Then water was brought and he did wudu. He washed his [b]face[/b], then his [b]arms to the elbows[/b], and then he [b]wiped his head [/b]and [b]wiped over his leather socks[/b]. Then he came to the mosque and prayed." Yahya said that Malik was asked whether a man who did wudu for prayerand then put on his leather socks, and then urinated and took them off and put them back on again, should begin wudu afresh. Malik replied, "He should take off his socks and wash his feet. Only someone who puts on leather socks when his feet are (already) ritually purified by wudu can wipe over them. Someone who puts on leather socks when his feet are not ritually purified by wudu, should not wipe over them." Yahya said that Malik was asked about a man who did wudu with his leather socks on and forgot to wipe over them until the water was dry and he had prayed, and he said, "He should wipe over his socks and repeat the prayer but not repeat wudu." Malik was asked about a man who washed his feet and put on his leather socks and then started doing wudu, and he said, "He should take off his socks and do wudu and wash his feet."
[/quote]

Now, this is close enough: wash face, wash hands to elbows, wipe face, and wipe feet.

27. What is interesting here is that the above Hadeeth and the ones before it [b]contradict [/b]themselves: in some Hadeeths they follow the Holy Koran and in others, they add mouth, ear, nose, etc?

28. [quote][b]Imam Malik Muwatta (Book #2, Hadith #2.16.62):[/b]

Yahya related to me from Malik from Nafi that Abdullah ibn Umar used to say, "[b]If you touch your penis you have to do wudu.[/b]" [/quote]

[b]NO COMMENTS![/b]

29. [quote][b]Abudawud (Book #1, Hadith #0042):[/b]

Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) urinated and Umar was standing behind him with a jug of water. He said: What is this, Umar? He replied: Water for you to perform ablution with. He said: I have not been commanded to perform ablution every time I urinate. [b]If I were to do so, it would become a sunnah[/b].
[/quote]

[b]So the prophet (pbuh) himself does not want to do ?SUNNAH?.[/b]

30. Finally, the Hadeeths described above are from the same sources and yet they have so many [b]discrepancies[/b]. The reason is very simple: Man made Hadeeths, 250 years after the death of Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) are not what Allah prescribed and that is why the Holy Koran is the way to go when doing the ?[b]SIMPLE[/b]? ablution command from Allah:

[quote][b]Chapter 4, verse 82[/b]:

[size=18]? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ??????????? ????? ??????????? ????????[/size]?

"If it had been from anyone other than Allah, it would contain many discrepancies"

·

7:16 am    October 16, 2005
mehdi
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142
haw are you lead prayers we all bady ok? hamdola
·

9:10 pm    June 21, 2005

Adnane Ben. message
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My intention was to include verse 32 also, which presents the Order of God to obey him and his Prophet Mohammed; otherwise God does not love those who reject his orders. Bear in mind that God defined in verse 31 his love to us by how much we follow his words (the Quran) AND his prophet Mohammed. These are 2 prerequisites to God's love, and they are not mutually exlusive.

Qoul Ati3ou llaha warrassoula, fa in tawallaw, fa inna llaha la you7ibbou al kaffirin.

3:32 Say: "Obey Allah and His Messenger.: But if they turn back, Allah loveth not those who reject Faith.

On another note, let me drop you a third question to ponder, and with this one I would like to share with you another verse from Al-Imrane. This is verse 7. In this verse God asks the Muslims to be cautious of the tricks of people who like to make them doubt the Quran and the Prophet. Some of these people may be doing it in purpose, for example they could be jews or christians willing to preserve their religion; they could be atheists; or they could be Muslims with poor level of faith who are prone to the influences of nnaffss and shaitan to question the word of God and the elaborations of Prophet Mohammed, to suit their style and taste. In my opinion, not that one's style and taste are always wrong, but they could be wrong. To eliminate that probability when our style and taste is wrong, a true Muslim prefers to abide as much as possible by what we know of the Quran, and what came down to us from Prophet Mohammed. What I always say, is we do as much as we can of this preservation, and when we cannot, God is aware of our intentions. If our intentions are pure and can be defended we could be safe with the decision or interpretations we make. If our intentions are wrong or naive, and we cannot defend them compellingly, then no guarrantee that our decisions will be correct. My question is: do you still want to encourage people to freely interpret the Quran directly without studying, referencing and respecting the works of various brilliant scholars (historians, linguists, writers, judges, imams, teachers) who dedicated their life to the study of Islam, the Quran and Prophet Mohammed?

The verse 7 of Al Imrane
http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/3/3_7.htm

3:7 Huwa allathee anzala AAalayka alkitaba minhu ayatun muhkamatun hunna ommu alkitabi waokharu mutashabihatun faamma allatheena fee quloobihim zayghun fayattabiAAoona ma tashabaha minhu ibtighaa alfitnati waibtighaa taweelihi wama yaAAlamu taweelahu illa Allahu waalrrasikhoona fee alAAilmi yaqooloona amanna bihi kullun min AAindi rabbina wama yaththakkaru illa oloo alalbabi

3:7 He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

3:7 C'est Lui qui a fait descendre sur toi le Livre: il s'y trouve des versets sans ?quivoque, qui sont la base du Livre, et d'autres versets qui peuvent pr?ter ? d'interpr?tations diverses. Les gens, donc, qui ont au coeur une inclinaison vers l'?garement, mettent l'accent sur les versets ? ?quivoque, cherchant la dissension en essayant de leur trouver une interpr?tation, alors que nul n'en conna?t l'interpr?tation, ? part Allah. Mais ceux qui sont bien enracin?s dans la science disent: "Nous y croyons: tout est de la part de notre Seigneur!" Mais, seuls les dou?s d'intelligence s'en rappellent.

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8:16 pm    June 21, 2005

Adnane Ben. message
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Yes that was the question. I asked the question because you argued that the Prophet Mohammed overrode the Quran verse about wudu. I argued back that Prophet Mohammed not only perfectly maintained the instructions of wudu in the Quran verse, but he made sure to suggest we remember them with a sequence, and he added the refreshening of the ears, which combined with the wudu instructions establishes the objective of wudu which is to clean at least the exposed areas of our bodies (subject to frequent dust, sun rays, ink etc). So, the question was asked, continue doing your research, and we talk again later.

Along the same debate of whether to stop at the Quran or aim for higher Iman by following Prophet Mohammed, One more question, while you are doing research: I gather that you believe in God and strongly believe in and respect the Quran. How would you react to this verse which clearly tells us to obey Prophet Mohammed and follow what he says and does if we wish to succeed by virtue of being loved by God. After you read this verse, and do your research about its historical circumstances, how do you see yourself debating how Prophet Mohammed performed the 3ibadat and their rituals.

The verse 31 of Al-Imrane says:
Say: "If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

Qoul, in kountoum tou7ibbouna llaha fa-ttabi3ouni, you7bibkoumou llahou wayaghfir lakoum dhounoubakoum. Wallahou ghafouroun Ra7eem.

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7:46 pm    June 21, 2005
Sunshine
213
1-Let me just remind you, WU, that I never called you names..
2-I am not interested in this topic because of you. For some reasons the cruse thingy is still haunting my thoughts...and now you are asking me to support my thoughts with koranic verses? you must be kidding me.
3-I refrain from participitating.
4-You taught me so many things a sidi WU ..have you learned anything from what you have so far though?
5-you are trying to prove something to someone else other than you..that's for sure..who is that freaking Moroccan who is so interested in Islam these days...and wants to use his logic..to solve the mysterious puzzle of some islamic practices.
6-when is Numero coming back to our village?
7-Good luck! n your mission!

you cannot shake up my faith in Allah.

·

7:45 pm    June 21, 2005
Sunshine
212
1-Let me just remind you, WU, that I never called you names..
2-I am not interested in this topic because of you. For some reasons the cruse thingy is still haunting my thoughts...and now you are asking me to support my thoughts with koranic verses? you must be kidding me.
3-I refrain from participitating.
4-You taught me so many things a sidi WU ..have you learned anything from what you have so far though?
5-you are trying to prove something to someone else other than you..that's for sure..who is that freaking Moroccan who is so interested in Islam these days...and wants to use his logic..to solve the mysterious puzzle of some islamic practices.
6-when is Numero coming back to our village?
7-Good luck! n your mission!

you cannot shake up my faith in Allah.

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7:03 pm    June 21, 2005
Ali
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209
Dear adnane, Sunshine,

1. Sorry for the delay, it's not that I forgot or that is taking me long to find the answer to your question.

2. I do have the answer to your question , with both Koran and Hadith backup as well.

3. I don't like to just write a quick answer, I want to make sure it's logical and covers the question that you have posted.

4. Just to make sure that I am not wasting my time by answering the wrong thing, this is the question that you have:

quote:

"QUESTION:

Can you tell me HOW is Prophet Mohammed, or the ahadiths sa7i7a narrated by the companions, overriding that verse if the main objective of the verse is captured at the end of it which is to be clean? If you can convince me with an answer that will be interesting."

5. I am debating whether to include Hadiths as backup or just Koran verses.

6. Again, I apologize for the delay.

7. Sunshine, please cool down a little bit! I am here just like you to debate religious matters. I actually bring Koran verses that clearly state what is right and what is wrong. Can you please back up your responses from the Holy Koran as well. REMEMBER: We are here to debate and learn. I am not here to convert anybody, but I am here to put my thoughts backed by the Holy Koran (Don't just call me names, debate back and use the Holy Koran to back up your claims. I am prety sure I will learn from you. I hope you are learning something from me as well. Peace and Love Sister!)

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2:14 pm    June 21, 2005
Sunshine
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Come on Adnane...don'y you smell the bad smell of his contradiction...lost bird! He doesn't know where to settle anymore!! Lay ykoun fel l3oune!

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12:18 pm    June 21, 2005

Adnane Ben. message
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Taking you a while isn't it? well, that is usually a sign of contradiction in your thoughts. I'm sure you'll find something to fill your hole with.
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1:39 pm    June 18, 2005

Adnane Ben. message
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your time. I will check back Monday nshallah, tomorrow am heading to Saidia beach for Sunday.
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9:51 pm    June 17, 2005
Sunshine
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To be honest with you Ali...I don't even dare to argue with you over any topic because I am fed up with your abstract ideologies...I know what kind of person you are..and also, won't forget how disrespectful you were to me!!!!! You crossed the line with me way too much. I learned and my special thanks to you, that some people keep barking for no reasing...whenever the noice gives me a migraine, I take aspirin...by staying away from you..

You are not ready yet to discuss Islam..because you have to get a hold on yourself first...you act like a hypnotized person,...fully blind by some incomprehensible claims about religious issues... you see yourself as being right all the time.. tolerance and respect don't exist in your dictionary..

Before you aim at changing Islam..I urge you to change yourself first. You seem like a lost bird is a dark forest my dear.

My sympathy!

·

2:19 pm    June 16, 2005
arabie
206
As I finished reading the exchanges between Ali and the rest of the world, I had to contribute some of my thoughts and attempt to break the cycle.

Ali if you are a muslim, please repeat after me: "Ash-Hadou anna la ilaha illa llah wa anna Mohammad rasoulou llah".

Profet Mohammed (SLWS) duty was to lead people and teach them about Islam, he was a teacher, a leader, an example. Now since you are an open-minded individual, you must know that things are usually not just black and white ;0) So when people tell you about a Hadith as being an addition to koran, they are not prefering Hadith over Koran 'kalam allah'. So please refrain from going in circles by stating that the Koran is the one and only source in Islam and if any one believes something else (in addition), he/she is defying the Koran. I agree with you on the fact when confusion arises, Koran is the main source or 'Marji3', as in 'go-back-to'.

Another thing, which I consider key in analysis, is the fact that you are trying to re-invent the wheel. That is you are dismissing the works of some well-known scholars/Sa7aba who worked extremely hard to collect those hadiths knowing the consequences of being wrong. At the time, the intellectual body of then society recognized these people's work and approved it as being authentic. Now this only means that their collection of Hadiths SHOULD be considered as 'Sa7i7', they certainly did not fabricate those Hadiths.

Sunna+Shari3a provide all of the islamic rules a muslim should abyde by. If you notice Shari3a has the bulk of things while Sunnah (Hadiths) brings the details as people start asking those questions. Our prophet didn't just start talking about what you must or must not do. It was usually people asking about certain details that they couldn't get from Koran (please pick up on the word DETAILS). At a certain point it was advised that people should cut down on those questions as rules were overwhelimingly increasing.

Finally, your last quotes from Koran meant what exactly?!!!!! Were they presented to argue the other quotes from the message posted below yours. You should know that all of these quotes come from the same book (Koran), are you saying that ALLAH contradicts 'himself' or 'he' is confused. No offense some one is confused here and it sure ain't god.

Please take your time, marinate on these thoughts for a minute or two before you respond. After all there is a possibility you could be wrong ;)

Peace!

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2:04 pm    June 16, 2005
Ayur
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Ali, Es-tu con? Every Verse in Quran has a meaning!!!!!!!!!!!! so just if the word "Hadith" appear on a verse, so it means Prophet's Hadith? are u crazy? Go read the full explanation of every verse u put, before judgin the Prophet!!!
Look, u're overwritin ur ideas by ur self!! 1st u asked for a hadith or a verse that forbids the imama, I posted a hadith, then u start tellin us that Hadiths are not considered as a strong Islam ressouces!!
Sorry, but u're on the edge! pay attention to urself!
I won't respond ur qsts since they're non-sence!!!!!
Quit Here!
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12:24 pm    June 16, 2005
Ali
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Dear Ayur,

1. Thanks for the Koran verses. They are very informative.

2. You have not answered my basic question: Here it is again:

3. Is a clear Koran verse MORE valid than what a MAN MADE Hadith? yes or no?

4. If your answer is NO. Then the Holy Koran is not clear. The Holy Koran is not complete. The Holy Koran is not detailed. Finally, you are believing in the Hadiths of Bukhari, Muslim, Al-Termedi, etc...So Allah has this to say to you:

quote:
=========================
Chapter 7, verse 185:

????????? ??????? ???????? ???????????

"In which hadith after this will they believe?"

Chapter 6, verse 114:

?????????? ?????? ????????? ??????? ?????? ??????? ???????? ?????????? ?????????? ??????????
"Shall I seek other than God as a source of law and judgment when He is the One who has sent down the Book to you in detail?"

Chapter 68, verse 35-36:

??? ?????? ?????? ???????????
???? ?????? ??????? ????? ???????????

"What is wrong with you? How do you judge? Do you have another book which you study?"
=========================

5. It's clear that the Prophet knew that fellow Muslims are going to deviate from the Holy Koran. Sure enough we are believing in Bukhari, Muslim, etc...Hadith collections and not doing what the Holy Koran CLEARLY prescribes.

6. I do understand that some people argue that the Wuduu as it's done today INCLUDES what the Holy Koran says PLUS other rituals as well (THREE times, Start with right side, etc...)

7. Since we are talking about the Imama issue, which is clearly NOT prohibited by Allah nor His Prophet, it seems to me that we Muslims need to stop being Hypocrit and doing one thing here by OVERRIDING the Holy Koran even when it's CLEAR (see WUDUU) and coming up with execuses based on Bukhari and Muslim Hadiths and deny women the God protected right to Imama.

8. If your answer to item#3 is Yes! Then I guess Bukhari and Muslim and their Hadith collections is the NEW HOLY BOOKS FOR ISLAM! and LET'S RETIRE THE HOLY KORAN FOR GOOD!

9. Thanks in advance for your inputs (Let's refrain from calling each other names, and disclosing Educational degrees, etc...). I am not interested in knowing if you are a man or a woman, a doctor or a gaz station operator, but I am here to give my opinions based on the Holy Koran and sometimes the Hadiths for all of us to learn.

10. Sister Sunshine: I forgive you! I understand that religious topics are very heated! We are here to learn and exchange ideas (In fact I can guarantee you that these kind of heated topics will not be thought like this in ANY MUSLIM NATION! Thanks to the Holy Internet, we can do that!)

11. Dear adnane: I am still researching your question and will get back with you ASAP!

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan Wa Saalam!

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10:35 am    June 16, 2005
Ayur
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Ali, bditi katkherbe9 tani?
So u don't believe what Our Prophet (SAW) said! ok, here're some Quran verses about it:
??? ?????: {??? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ????? ??? ???????}
(al 7achr, 7)

???? ?????: {?? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ????}
(Annisa2, 80)

???: {??? ???? ?? ????? ?? ?? ??? ??? ????}
(Annajm, 3-4) Al hawa here means Prophet Mohammed (SAW)

??? ?????: {??? ???? ???? ??? ???????? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ??????? ??????? ?????? ??????? ??? ????? ?? ??? ??? ???? ????}
(Al 3imrane, 164)

??? ?????? ??????: {???? ??? ??? ???????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ????? ??????}
(Annour, 51)

{?? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ??????? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ??????? ?? ??? ????? ??? ???? ??????? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ???????}
(Annisa2, 59) Oulou Al2amr means our Scholars, if u're weak in translation!!

Finally, I hope u'll get the meaning of these verses, and u repent from what u're doing, even ur prophet u don't believe in him!! If u think u can challenge our faith by your ridiculous posts, u're wrong, ana aweldi I studied the whole Christianity and Jewish religion and compare'em to Islam, so I strengthend my faith! Noway!

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5:14 am    June 16, 2005

Adnane Ben. message
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:) nobody is on the spot here, if anything should be on the spot it is the subject.

So I gather from your questrions that you do not have a lot of faith or even believe in Prophet Mohammed. If you did, and if you appreciate the fact that God selected him as his messenger, you would look at the way the prophet performed wudu as your preferred way.

Wudu as described in the quran is just fine of course. If someone prefers to perform it as the prophet did then they are following sunnah. I do not know if that will get you closer to God or the prophet, but it does keep you "attached" to idea of respecting, admiring and thanking God for sending the prophet as a mercy. I think the 3 times sequences etc, are adopted by the madahib based on this idea of following how the prophet did things.

But if you prefer to follow just the Quran honestly you are free to do what you like. The difference between you and me and many others here, is that we believe the prophet behaviour, rituals complete the Quran whereas you stop at the Quran. The other difference is that we trust the authoritative historians, khoulafae and companions of the prophet who recorded for us some of his sunnan, and we try to live by them as much as we can for they do elaborate on the Quran.

Notice that the prophet kept the Fard elements of wudu as described in the verse. He did not omit them. He added washing the ears and the sequence. Personnaly, I feel fresh when I wash my ears, and the sequence helps me remember the elements I need to wash. The business of 3 times, sometimes I do 3, other times, less other times more if my face is 3arqana, sometimes I use soap, etc. As God said, he does not want to put any burden on us, he just want us to be clean.

QUESTION:
Can you tell me HOW is Prophet Mohammed, or the ahadiths sa7i7a narrated by the companions, overriding that verse if the main objective of the verse is captured at the end of it which is to be clean? If you can convince me with an answer that will be interesting.

·

7:52 pm    June 15, 2005
Ali
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Dear adnane,

quote:

"Chapter 5, verse 6:

O ye who believe! when ye prepare for prayer, wash your faces, and your hands (and arms) to the elbows; Rub your heads (with water); and (wash) your feet to the ankles. If ye are in a state of ceremonial impurity, bathe your whole body. But if ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands, Allah doth not wish to place you in a difficulty, but to make you clean, and to complete his favour to you, that ye may be grateful.?

Let's follow the following simple logic again:

1. The above verse is from the Holy Koran

2. The above verse prescribes Wuduu for the believers in Islam

3. The above verse says clean hands, feet, head, and face and STOP.

4. What questions do you or other readers have about the above Koran verse?

5. What is not clear in the above verse?

6. Did Allah say clean your feet THREE TIMES?

7. Did Allah say clean your hands THREE TIMES?

8. Did Allah say clean your face THREE TIMES?

9. Did Allah say clean your head THREE TIMES?

10. Let's go further, did Allah say clean your EARS AT ALL?

11. Did Allah say START with your RIGHT side at all?

12. Finally, WHY AREN'T YOU FOLLOWING WHAT ALLAH PRESCRIBED TO YOU IN THE HOLY KORAN?

13. WHY DO YOU OVERRIDE THE ABOVE CLEAR AYAT WITH A MAN MADE HADITH?

14. WHY DO YOU PREFER THE HADITHS OVER THE KORAN?

15. I HOPE THAT MY QUESTIONS ARE CLEAR AND SIMPLE!

16. adnane: I know that I am putting you on the spot here, but I am really presenting you with a clear Koran verse here. If that simple Wuduu Ayat is overriden with Hadiths using Ijtihad, the Imama case is a piece of CAKE!

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan Wa Saalam!

·

7:34 pm    June 15, 2005

Adnane Ben. message
200
196
Good questions. I am not scholarly, but I will say what I know about these things.

From what I have encountered in the Quran, God does not detail the ritual of prayer and wudu. For wudu he describes what the verse in your post says, and for prayer he usually describe it as sujud, roukou3, tartil quran. How come the wudu and prayer we do are more elaborate in detail? I think the answer lies not in Quran, which is not the only source of Islam, but it lies with the malaeka and the prophet, two elements that contribute and complete the faith in God and the acceptance of Islam.

Several details were captured by Prophet Mohammed by observing Malak Gibril. Gibril not only conveyed the Quran which is in the form of language, made up of arabic alphabets (alif, lam, mim.. if youve taken discrete mathematics, you know what i am talking about).. Gibril also conveyed message in other forms in order to show how to perform salat or wudu - and who knows, maybe other things as well, that the prophet adopted as a lifestyle. Gibril does not add or eliminate anything from what God passes on to him - if you doubt that, your pillar of faith in malaeka needs strength. Prophet Mohammed does not add or eliminate anything from what Gibril passes on to him - if you have doubt about that, your pillar of faith in Prophets needs strength. Why do we have to follow the behaviour, lifestyle of our prophet? maybe there is no verse in the quran that says so, but the quran does describe the behaviour and lifestyle and training or prophet Mohammed as Great -- and what more do we want to become other than what God sees as Great -- "wa innaka la3ala khoulouqin 3adiiiiiiiiiiiiim".

If both pillars above need strength, you will then not only question wudu or salat, or women-led prayers, or multiple wives, or divorce, or riba, etc but you will be questioning the religion of Islam.

If both pillars above need strength, then everything about Islam, Allah, Prophets from Adam to Nou7, to Ibrahim, to Iss7ak and Ya3qoub, to Ismail, to Moussa, Issa and to Mohammed, the angels, Gibril, 3azraeel, Malik, all will sound like mere myths to you -- because all is history material to you, and you don't tend to easily trust history. We all should be cautious of historians no doubt, but we should also be accepting of authoritative histories especially those that recorded the advent of Islam to us, and thanks to them we have Islam, we could either accept it, or further question it. I hope that your interesting questions will come across someone who has strong knowlmedge of Islam, who can enlighten us all, and bring us all closer to the truth. We all seem to be quiet ignorant about Islam when it comes to defending its basics with conviction and argumentation, to be honest with you. You make it thougher and interesting, because the minute someone ornates their argument with a hadith or verse, you question the sources or interpretation. If someone then decides to use their own philosophy you'd go on questioning their philosophy. Unless someone's philosophy is rock solid, we will not advance much in this discussion.

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7:33 pm    June 15, 2005
Ali
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198
Sister Sunshine,

quote
"I don't know what's wrong with my messy comment! Anyway...it is midnight and I don't feel like fixing it,..hope u would get my point though:)"

1. Did you get a goodnight sleep?

2. I do not hate Islam. I love Islam and I care about a simple Islam the way Allah intended it to be.

3. I showed you and other readers a verse from the Holy Koran describing Wuduu.

4. I know that you can clearly see how Wuduu was prescibed by the Almighty Allah.

5. I also showed to you how the different sects in Islam took the simple Wuduu prescribed by Allah and made it into an unecessary ritual with THREE things as well as a sequence, etc...

6. The bottom line is that a lot of my fellow Muslims are unable to face themeselves when they see how the Hadiths have extended even the Holy Koran and yet they keep saying that Muslims are divided.

7. When the Holy Koran is clear about something such as Wuduu, DO NOT OVERRIDE IT WITH HADITHS THAT CLEARLY VIOLATE ALLAH'S PRESCRIPTION .

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan Wa Saalam!

·

9:14 pm    June 14, 2005
Sunshine
198
I don't know what's wrong with my messy comment! Anyway...it is midnight and I don't feel like fixing it,..hope u would get my point though:)
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9:09 pm    June 14, 2005
Sunshine
197
Shouf a weldi Ali...take it easy. If you think Islam is a burden, then you can fix that burden by converting to other religions. I am very disappointed in you. One time you told us that you have learned the quran in the masjid. So I expected you to have higher understanding of Islam than we do. Les apprarences sont trompeuses parfois!

Why such interest in Islam Ali? Why are you working so work to bring it down? What;s your point from these silly questions and new commandments you are coming uShouf a weldi Ali...take it easy. If you think Islam is a burden, then you can fix that burden by converting to other religions. I am very disappointed in you. Once you told us that you have learned the quran in the masjid. So I expected you to have higher understanding of Islam than we do. Les apprarences sont trompeuses parfois!

Why such interest in Islam Ali? Why are you working so work to bring it down? What;s your point from these silly questions and new commandments you are coming with?

If you think you are challenging our faith..then let me tell you brother that you are not! You are simply wasting your time and making yourself to endure an unecessary migraine you can avoid by walking out of Islam.

Are you looking for a lost soul? Why such hate towards Islam? Why are you pushing yourself to be blind with a perfect vision????

Lah yehdik

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10:52 am    June 14, 2005
Ali
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Dear adnane,

Quote:

?as for the hadith of negotiations of salawat, i heard the story before, and who knows, could be true, could be modified. allahou a3lam?

1. There are no less than 8 Hadiths describing the Salat negotiations event.

2. Some Hadiths claim 50, 40, 30, 20, 10, and then 5.

3. Other Hadiths claim 50, 25, 10, and then 5

4. Others just mention 50 and then 5.

5. As you can clearly see, and I am not surprised, my fellow Muslims follow Hadiths to override what Allah prescribed in the Holy Koran.

6. So far, I have yet to find a single Muslim who is able to come up with the 5 Salats in the Koran (Specifically Duhr, Asr, and Maghreb)

7. Allah is a smart DUDE! He uses the sun movement to time the 2 Salats. As far as the other Sunnah Salats (Duhr, Asr, and Maghreb), I am pretty sure that if you go to 2 different mosques in the same neighborhood, you will find them arguing about the position of the Sun during Duhr and Asr, etc?

8. And since we are talking about 3ibadat etc?Let?s talk about the Wuduu!

9. We all grew up with Wuduu as cleaning your hands THREE times, your feet THREE times, mouth THREE times, etc?This is what the Holy Koran says:

Quote:

?Chapter 5, verse 6:

??? ???????? ????????? ???????? ????? ???????? ????? ????????? ??????????? ??????????? ?????????????? ????? ???????????? ???????????? ????????????? ?????????????? ????? ???????????? ????? ??????? ??????? ?????????????? ????? ?????? ???????? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ??????? ????? ?????????? ???? ??????????? ????????? ?????? ????????? ???? ?????????????? ???????? ???????? ???????????? ????????????? ???????????? ??????? ??? ??????? ?????? ?????????? ????????? ????? ?????? ???????? ??????? ??????????????? ??????????? ?????????? ?????????? ??????????? ???????????

O ye who believe! when ye prepare for prayer, wash your faces, and your hands (and arms) to the elbows; Rub your heads (with water); and (wash) your feet to the ankles. If ye are in a state of ceremonial impurity, bathe your whole body. But if ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands, Allah doth not wish to place you in a difficulty, but to make you clean, and to complete his favour to you, that ye may be grateful.?

10. After reading the Wuduu as prescribed by the Almighty Allah, I have a question for you adnane as well as other contributors: What part of the Wuduu prescribed by Allah don?t you understand? Where in the above verse did Allah The All Knowing mention THREE?

11. Why do a lot of Muslims OVERRIDE what Allah has already prescribed CLEARLY in the Holy Koran?

12. The only logical conclusion that a person can come up with is this: Well, Allah can sing as much as he wants! We, the Sunni, Shiaa, Maliki, Shafii, Hanbali, etc...MUSLIMS will follow the Hadiths! Because the Hadiths are more RIGHT than what the HOLY Koran CLEARLY says (see the above AYAT!)

13. adnane: Did I miss something in my Wuduu logic? (Allah said: clean your face, hand, head, and feet AND STOP!. Hadith people said: Allah does not know what he is doing so let?s override his COMMAND and add to that mouth, ears, neck, nose, face Kibla, use right hand, THREE times, blablabla, blablabla, blablabla?) And the result is that we have 15 different Madhabs and 15 different ways of doing a simple cleaning ritual that was prescribed by Allah. Allah was Smart to make it simple. Sunnah people were wrong to complicate it.

14. This is what you have in wuduu practice: People forget the 3 times Sunnah order, people screw up the sequence of Wuduu, people start redoing their wuduu, etc?.Do you see Allah imposing any SEQUENCE in his HOLY Ayat?

15. I am looking forward for some inputs about any flaws in my Wuduu logic from my fellow Moroccans!

16. Yes! Ijtihad is allowed on things that are not clear. The wuduu case is as clear as it gets!

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan Wa Saalam!

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8:36 am    June 14, 2005

Adnane Ben. message
195
194
ya bessmellah, ya bessmellah,

Je suis tres bien hamdoullah merci, nego yemken mazel ma tregistra fhad la discussion bash yjiweh les notifications des reponses.. je viens d'ajouter ca recement et ca aide. amma Lui just spoke to him yesterday, and i am sure he prefers to stay away from you :)

as for the 5 salawat, as far as I am concerned, the prophet performed them as he was shown by angel Gibril who only conveys the message of God. Prophet mohammed mazad fdak shi manaqass, w a3oudou billah ila goult shi 7aja li ghadi tallaf nass m3aya. as for the hadith of negotiations of salawat, i heard the story before, and who knows, could be true, could be modified. allahou a3lam.

For the prder to pray early morning and late night, that was specifically for prophet >Mohammed if i understand correctly. God wanted to train him spiritually. He orders all of his prophets to do that more than regular people. It is training the spirit, preparing it for more and more revelations, getting it closer and closer to God. The prophet used to indulge his closest co,panions with him in those late night and early morning prayers to strenghten their faith for they would eventually pass on and maintain the religion to the best of their ability.

Ali, whenever i read your replies, i remember that verse that says in the meaning of, those who argue with God, his angels, his prophets, without much authoritative and co,pelling knowmledge are doing more harm than good. My advise, and I am only reminding you, if you are indeed a Muslim or someone interested in >Islam, to be careful what you argue especially in public. You might be stirring interesting discussions no doubt, but time would run, you'd age, before you can find answers that suit your concerns, and who knows maybe it will late. Take it easy, these days my friend islam is not as it used to be, it is much more relaxed to be honest. How much more relaxed youd like it to be?

A lot of your comments tend to ridicule >Islam, koran, the prophets. Even non-muslim would not do that. They would engage in a respectful dialogue.

Remember that you cannot perform ijtihad on 3ibadat. If we do, we end up with what happened to the people of Nou7 as they started worshipping idols as time went by, Ibrahim, the christians as they worship prophet jesus, the jews as they consider prophet jesus a bastard... with people like you Ali, Islam will be lost.

Alayahdik.

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8:07 pm    June 13, 2005
Ali
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Dear adnane,

[quote]The act of worshipping which includes the 5 daily obligatory salawat (formal prayers)[/quote]

1. How are you dude?

2. Where's nego, Lui, etc...?

3. As far as the 5 Salats, the Holy Koran prescribes only 2 Salats: Fajr and Ishaa. There is no Duhr, Asr, nor Maghreb!

[quote] Chapter 11, verse 114

" وَأَقِمِ الصَّلاَةَ طَرَفَيِ النَّهَارِ وَزُلَفاً مِّنَ اللَّيْلِ إِنَّ الْحَسَنَاتِ يُذْهِبْنَ السَّـيِّئَاتِ ذَلِكَ ذِكْرَى لِلذَّاكِرِينَ"

?And establish regular prayers at the two ends of the day and at the approaches of the night: For those things, that are good remove those that are evil: Be that the word of remembrance to those who remember (their Lord)

Chapter 17, verse 78:

" أَقِمِ الصَّلاَةَ لِدُلُوكِ الشَّمْسِ إِلَى غَسَقِ اللَّيْلِ وَقُرْآنَ الْفَجْرِ إِنَّ قُرْآنَ الْفَجْرِ كَانَ مَشْهُوداً"

"Establish regular prayers - at the sun's decline till the darkness of the night, and the morning prayer and reading: for the prayer and reading in the morning carry their testimony."

[/quote]

4. As you can see, Allah prescribed 2 Salats and the Sunnah people OVERRODE Allah's prescribtion with 5 Salats.

5. In fact, there is a funny Hadith about how the 5 Salats were prescribed. It goes something like this: During The Isra and Miaraj event, Prophet Mohammed went to the heavens on the back of a donkey looking creature called Al-Buraq, started negotiating with Allah using moses as a counselor, finally after many hard negotiations with Allah, the Salat was reduced from 50, to 40, to 30, to 20, to 10, and finally to 5.

6. In fact there at least 8 variations of the above Hadith with clear contradictions between them.

7. The moral of the story, is that the Holy Koran prescribed 2 Salats, but those who created the Hadiths and their chains of transmissions OVERRODE Allah's prescription to suit their agendas.

[quote] We have absolutely no right that God allowed us, to tweak 3ibadat in order to suit our taste, feelings or those who do not appreciate our religion.[/quote]

1. Based on what I said above, I do agree with you that we have tweaked Salat from 2 to 5. We need to stop that.

[quote]Ali - so this my clear cut on this issue: the keyword is 3ibadat do not have room for ijtihad. If we allow ijtihad to affect 3ibadat, we will be changing islam, probably not instantly, but surely slowly until you cannot distinguish it from the original intention.[/quote]

1. If we do not have room for Ijtihad, then we need to go back to the Holy Koran and apply it as it was prescribed by the Almighty Allah!

2. Otherwise, we can tweak the 3ibadat to the 21st century and more specifically, tweak Islam to the western culture because that's what Prophet Mohammed did with Islam in the begenning stages of spreading Islam. He goes to a tribe, he uses his wisdom and ijtihad to create a simple Islam that the tribe can understand, he tweaks it until the tribe get used to it, and slowly he adds more salt and pepper to get the spices of Islam in their system. That's the wisdom of Tabligh!

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6:46 pm    June 13, 2005

Adnane Ben. message
193
175
Ali said:
"9. Let's even go further, and let's see that a white blond boyfriend and his "hot" girlfriend doing their Salat, outside a restaurant, before they go on a date! You see the possibilities!"

I will come back to the above at the end of this message.

Ali - I believe we have the right to ijtihad in all matters, including shari3a, except the 3ibadat. The act of worshipping which includes the 5 daily obligatory salawat (formal prayers), salawat of holy days, salawat of the night, optional salawat - all of the, are a major part of the 3ibadat. These we are ordered to follow them as prescribed in the quran, and if not completely defined in the quran, follow how the prophet performed them. We have absolutely no right that God allowed us, to tweak 3ibadat in order to suit our taste, feelings or those who do not appreciate our religion.

True, that there may not be a verse in the quran that clearly endowes men only of the responsibility of leading people in formal prayers; we are then ordered to search in sunnah, what is narrated about the sayings, doings and non-doings of the prophet. Again, we may not find anything that clearly cuts the steak. But we at least can observe that the history in sunnah and khoulafae rashidoun always had men leading formal prayers. If this says anything it says this is how 3ibadat were done when the prophet was alive. Since we are not allowed to explore the subject of 3ibadat with the intention to find a solution to a problem (ijtihad), a true Muslim would choose to follow 3ibadat as it was done during the prophet and soon after him; and save the energy of ijtihad to other matters non-3ibadat such as finance, politics, medicine.

Ali - so this my clear cut on this issue: the keyword is 3ibadat do not have room for ijtihad. If we allow ijtihad to affect 3ibadat, we will be changing islam, probably not instantly, but surely slowly until you cannot distinguish it from the original intention.

To comment on your quote on the beginning of my message, i?d say indeed you're "going further" from Islam by not defending the 3ibadat.

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11:48 am    June 13, 2005
Ali
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190
Sister Sunshine,

quote:

"I am delaying Hijab because I want to get a hold on so many things before making this decision. I am trying to keep up with my prayers...etc., When I will feel that I am ready to put I will!"

1. May Allah help you in your endeavor!

2. Islam is a path and you, and I, and the non-hijabi, mixed Salat women above are riding it step by step.

3. Since this topic is about Muslims and Imama, the above picture contains Muslimat who are walking the path of Islam, just like you and I!

quote:

"and by the way, I do cover my head when I pray..Don't over complicate things. Both quran and Islam are clear...and after all lakoum dinoukoum wa lya dini. Sounds good ha! Good luck to our future Imamas."

1. I am glad that you do cover before Salat. I don't think that it is necessary though!

2. You have a choice of covering or not. You made your choice and may Allah help you in your Islamic path!

3. I agree with you concerning Koran and Islam being clear: There is no prohibition of Imama and no mandatory Hijab in the Koran and Islam!

4. As far as Imama, Islam, and Fashion, etc...Let's give this new way of practicing Islam a chance. Who knows what will happen. May be the Islamic ranks will double and we will end up with ALL the Christian women converting to Islam because Islam allows women leadership during Salat!

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan Wa Saalam!

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11:30 am    June 13, 2005
Ali
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188
Dear Ayur,

This is the Hadith you are using to argue that a woman can?t be Imama:

?Sahih Muslim, Book 004, Number 0881:

url = http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/004.smt.html#004.0881

?Abu Huraira said: The best rows for men are the first rows, and the worst ones the last ones, and the best rows for women are the last ones and the worst ones for them are the first ones.?

1. The above Hadith does not mention anything about Salat.

2. The Hadith states that it?s PREFERABLE for men to be in front and for females to be in the back.

3. The Hadith does NOT PROHIBIT women from being Imama and lead both men and women in prayer.

4. If you look at the ARABIC Hadith, the word ?SAFF? = ?ROW? is used.

5. If you search the Holly Koran for the word ?SAFF?, this is what you will find:

Chapter 61, verse 4:

?????? ??????? ??????? ????????? ???????????? ??? ????????? ?????? ?????????? ???????? ???????????

?Verily, Allah loves those who fight in His Cause in rows (ranks) as if they were a solid structure.?

6. This means that the above Abu-Huraira Hadith could have been stated in relation to WAR.

7. And, so that I am very clear with you: I do not look at Hadiths as being HOLY because all Hadiths are MAN MADE. This means that they are flawed and only Allah and his Holly Koran are PERFECT.

8. As far as Salat is concerned, I told you in one of my earlier posts that the Holy Koran does not prohibit Imama and so is the MAN MADE SUNNAH.

9. I also asked both you and sister Sunshine to provide Koran verses and so far you are unable to do so. I am not surprised because I have done the research myself and found none.

10. On top of all of this, His Highness The Big Shot Mufti al-Qaradawi SPECIFICALLY said in his IMAMA ISSUE opinion that THERE IS NO KORAN VERSE NOR HADITH THAT PROHIBITS A WOMAN FROM BEING IMAMA!

11. Finally, here is the Holy Koran and what it says about Salat to both men and women:

Chapter 9, verse 71:

????????????????? ???????????????? ?????????? ?????????? ?????? ??????????? ?????????????? ???????????? ???? ?????????? ???????????? ?????????? ??????????? ?????????? ???????????? ?????? ??????????? ??????????? ?????????????? ?????? ????? ?????? ??????? ????????

?The Believers, men and women, are protectors one of another: they enjoin what is just, and forbid what is evil: they observe regular prayers, practice regular charity, and obey Allah and His Messenger. On them will Allah pour His mercy: for Allah is Exalted in power, Wise.?

12. It?s very clear that Allah does not discriminate between men and women in Salat. Who are we to change it?

13. Finally, you asked me what I know about Abu Huraira. Well, here are a few things every Muslim who likes to quote Abu Huraira Hadiths should know about The Father of The Kitten (Abu-Huraira)

A. Abu-Huraira = Father of the Kitten

B. He used to have a cat that follows him everywhere (that's why he was nicknamed Abu-Huraira)

C. Before converting to Islam, his name was "Abdu-Shams" (the servant of the sun)

D. The Prophet changed his name to "Abdur-Rahman" (the servant of the Beneficent).

E. As usual, in the Sunnah littereature, we have to say that Abu-Huraira has a big talent: VERY GOOD MEMORY. So that nobody is allowed to say that his Hadiths are wrong!

F. During Abu-Huraira's time and after, many people came up with FALSE hadiths and attributed them to Abu-Huraira (because of the buz-word GOOD MEMORY DUDE!)

G. Abu-Huraira was governor of Bahrain. He became very rich very quickly.

H. The caliph Umar (r.a.a) dismissed Abu-Huraira as governor because he was very concerned that Abu-Huraira became rich and wealthy very quickly using his position as governor.

I. Here are two Hadiths that are considered SAHIH. One from Bukhari and the other is from Muslim. Both Hadiths are attributed to Abu-Huraira who has a GREAT MEMORY.

NOTICE ONE QIRAT vs. TWO QIRAT. Which one do you believe?

Hadith-1: ONE QIRAT

?Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "If somebody keeps a dog, he loses one qirat (of the reward) of his good deeds everyday, except if he keeps it for the purpose of agriculture or for the protection of livestock. " (Bukhari, Book #54, Hadith #541)?

Hadith-2: TWO QIRAT

?Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: He who kept a dog which is neither meant for hunting nor for watching the anitmals nor for watching the fields would lose two qirat every day out of his reward; and there is no mention of the fields in the hadith transmitted by Abu Tahir. (Muslim, Book #010, Hadith #3822)?

J. Please be very careful when you quote a Hadith. Just because we are used to saying the classic chaining statement (Isnaad in arabic): Ain-Abi BlaBla, Ain Abu BloBlo, etc...Ain Abu-Huraira SAID:something, it does not mean that it's true.

K. And for those of you who do not know the Hadith so called Science, please understand that Bukhari collected some 600,000 Hadiths and only kept about 4000 (This means that almost 98.5% of the Hadiths he collected are either wrong or LIES!)

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan Wa Saalam!

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8:58 am    June 13, 2005
Sunshine
190
Oh look at you!! well-behaved ha. Subhana Allah!

I am delaying Hijab because I want to get a hold on so many things before making this decision. I am trying to keep up with my prayers...etc., When I will feel that I am ready to put I will!

and by the way, I do cover my head when I pray..Don't over complicate things. Both quran and Islam are clear...and after all lakoum dinoukoum wa lya dini. Sounds good ha! Good luck to our future Imamas.

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7:13 am    June 13, 2005
Ali
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187
Sweetheart Sunshine,

quote

"Listen sweetheart, in this life you have to comply with the rules. same with Islam. Women have to cover their head prior performing their prayers. What's wrong with that?"

1. Thanks for calling me seetheart. That's very sweet of you! I do have a heart that cares, despite our clear differences on many religious issues.

2. I agree with you on the issue of complying with rules as long as those rules are in the Holy Koran. The issue of Imama is not covered in the Koran nor the Sunnah. Therefore there are no rules broken.

3. What you are talking about are CULTURAL rules. Since the above "sexy non-hijabi" women happen to live in the Western CULTURE, it seems to me that they have not broken any RULES.

quote

"I am a proud muslim..I was born as a muslim, yet no body taught me how to be a muslim. I had to learn it on my own.
And you got it...I am getting there step by step, and eventually I will put on the scarf."

1. Why are you delaying the scarf?

2. Is it an agenda that you have with Allah? yourself? work? your husband?

3. From what you are describing in the quote above, it seems to me that you are no different than the above "non-hijabi, mixed Salat" women above. They will probably FASHION Islam as allowing non-hijab and mixed Salat and then STEP by STEP they will probably choose the hijab and non-mixed Salat events!

4. Let's be clear on one thing: The Holy Koran does not prohibit mixed Salat with both men and women. The Holy Koran does not impose HIJAB. The Holy Koran is the word of Allah. What makes you or anyone else more knowledgeable that Allah? unless, we, humans know better than Allah himself.

5. What amazes me about a lot of my fellow Muslims is that they keep OVERRIDING the Holy Koran with their own interpretation of events.

6. If Allah does not prohibit something. It means just that: He allows it! Otherwise, we can argue that Allah is NOT THE ALL KNOWING!

7. Again: To all the contributors to this topic, please provide us with a Koran verse that prohibit women from being IMAMA! and a koran verse that orders HIJAB on women!

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan Wa Saalam!

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2:42 pm    June 11, 2005
Ayur
188
186
Ali, If you have "sa7i7 Mouslim" You can find it there!
About authenticity, what do u know about hadiths narrated by Abou hourayra? or maybe he doesn't fit your craetarias?
Try to look for it in google, and u'll see that there're plenty of websites showing this hadith among their hadiths database!
To read the Hadith, left click/codage/Arabic
As for your qst, are u crazy or what? what kind of origins u're talking about, ach jabe hadi lhadi? I asked u a qst and u're answering by another qst, that means rak ghir katkherbe9!!! try to clear ur thoughts! coz u're just sayin whatever!
·

1:45 pm    June 11, 2005
Sunshine
187
Ali,

I am a proud muslim..I was born as a muslim, yet no body taught me how to be a muslim. I had to learn it on my own.
And you got it...I am getting there step by step, and eventually I will put on the scarf.

Listen sweetheart, in this life you have to comply with the rules. same with Islam. Women have to cover their head prior performing their prayers. What;s wrong with that? and why are you having difficulties with your digestive system?

Ali or WU stop acting like a fool!

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12:35 pm    June 11, 2005
Ali
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Dear Ayur,

quote

"Ali, Check the Hadith I posted again and again, try to understand so u'll be able to fully explain it! and by the way, plz if u can check the Quran & Sunna again to see if there're any thing that allows mixed prayers, or Imama female!"

1. Can you provide a direct web link to this Hadith?

2. The character displayed in the Hadith bellow are not readable on my computer.

3. I will definetly love to read this Hadith and check its authenticity to verify it against Imam Malik, Bukhari, Muslim, Al-Termedi, etc...

4. The Hadith background is very important!

5. I will also discuss the Nuns issue! Which brings an interesting point: Are Muslim Hijabi women the product of Nuns since Christianity came before Islam? in other words, is Hijab based on how nuns cover themselves?

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan Wa Saalam!


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12:21 pm    June 11, 2005
Ali
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181
Sister Sunshine,

1. I am sorry for mistaking you for a man. I apologies for that!

2. You mentioned that you are not wearing Hijab and yet you are for Hijab.

3. As a Muslim man, I am confused a little bit about what you stand for: Is Hijab a MUST for a woman to be a Muslima?

4. If it's a MUST, then we have to conclude that you (sister Sunshine) is NOT MUSLIMA.

5. I am sorry for making this harsh conclusion, but it seems to me that it's very hypochrit for a woman to say that Hijab is a MUST for a Muslima and yet she is not wearing one.

6. If I understand you correctly, it seems that you are NOT a MUSLIMA yet! you are getting there step by step. And wearing Hijab is your next step to be a COMPLETE MUSLIMA. Am I correct in my conclusion? Please forgive me if I misunderstood what you stand for!

7. If delaying the wearing of Hijab is what you are doing now, what is the real LABEL that you should have. Is it a MUSLIMA-70%, or MUSLIMA-80%, or MUSLIMA-90% and you are working your way to being a MUSLIMA-100%?

8. If that is the case, then I do not know what the full Islam is all about?

9. If we look at the IMAMA picture above, then we can conclude that those NON-HIJABI and MIXED-SALAT WOMEN are, let's say MUSLAMA-65%, and hopefully when they start doing thier Salat with just NON-HIJABI women, they will be promoted to MUSLIMA-75%, and so on!

10. It seems to me sister Sunshine, that as Muslims, we all pick and choose what we feel comfortable with and yet we still call ourselves Muslims (I believe in the existence of ONE ALLAH and I will assume that you also believe in the same ALLAH, at least I hope!)

11. Again, I appologies for mistaking you for a man (The virtual world does not have a gender!)

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan Wa Saalam!

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9:01 am    June 11, 2005
Sunshine
184
Dear Ayur,

You are very welcome. Ali needs help..I diagnosed him long time ago with serious paranoid schizophrenia! Lah yehdih w yehdina.

Ali, do you have problems with your skin? Why can't you be yourself. Your make up started melting mon vieux! No more magic:-)

Have a good one:-)

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8:23 am    June 11, 2005
Ayur
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182
Sunshine, sista:) thx u for introducing our unknown Ali:) who is mis-using/mis-understanding Quran & Sunnah (I hope unconsciently)

Ali, Check the Hadith I posted again and again, try to understand so u'll be able to fully explain it! and by the way, plz if u can check the Quran & Sunna again to see if there're any thing that allows mixed prayers, or Imama female!
and can you please explain to me why Nuns wears scarfs in church? why should we talk about muslims? let's talk about christian women since u look impressed by the freedom "a l'occidental"! so why do they wear white scarfs, and cover their bodies from head to toes with black clothes! I'd like to see a naked-hair nun in church, it'll be so hot and so exciting! isn't it?
hada makane! LLAH yehdina 7etta yeddina!

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7:47 am    June 11, 2005
Sunshine
182
Sweetheart Ali, or shall I say mon amour Jesus.

You cannot fool me twice!
You know that I am a woman and I know that you are jesus, wafinuser, Moroccanhilter, salima, number 72, and the list might go on and on forever...I am keeping an eye on you.

Your problem is that you don't appreciate the meaning of a debate...don't play the role of the nice well-behaved man because it does not suit you. Be honest with yourself...you care less about these topics...for God's sake why bothering if you are a non believer!! I mean what's the use?

Yes, I am a woman, and no I don't wear hijab because I haven't reach the peak of the islamic perfection at that point.

But I can promise you that one I will wear it...all I will be adding is a scraf! What's wrong with this picture? would I look ugly....chances are not!

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4:41 am    June 11, 2005
Ayur
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This hadith marwi 3an Abi hourayra!
And from Sa7i7 Mouslim
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10:56 pm    June 10, 2005
Ali
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Brother Sunshine,

1. Are you OK?

2. We are just exchanging different opinions about possible changes to Islam to make it more fun in a western society.

3. There is nothing wrong about Ijtihad to try out different things in Islam.

4. Please remember that I do not own Islam and you do not own Islam either.

5. Just imagine if your wife (I am assuming that you are married) does her Salats, is a very good person, but does not wear Hijab. I am willing to give up my seat in heaven for your wife!

6. I have a question for you man to man: Do you really want to wear Hijab if you were a woman?

7. I am researching the Koranic verse about Hijab and I will let you know what the Koran says about Hijab!

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan Wa Saalam!

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10:55 pm    June 10, 2005
Ali
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Brother Sunshine,

1. Are you OK?

2. We are just exchanging different opinions about possible changes to Islam to make it more fun in a western society.

3. There is nothing wrong about Ijtihad to try out different things in Islam.

4. Please remember that I do not own Islam and you do not own Islam either.

5. Just imagine if your wife (I am assuming that you are married) does her Salats, is a very good person, but does not wear Hijab. I am willing to give up my seat in heaven for your wife!

6. I have a question for you man to man: Do you really want to wear Hijab if you were a woman?

7. I am researching the Koranic verse about Hijab and I will let you know what the Koran says about Hijab!

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan Wa Saalam!

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10:53 pm    June 10, 2005
Ali
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Brother Ayur,

can you provide the hadith source? i.e Muslim and Bukhari, book, volume, Hadith number?

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan Wa Saalam!

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7:42 pm    June 10, 2005
Sunshine
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I am 100% sure that you are the same person I had in my mind. So I pretty much know your mentality, and I?ll tell you again that you are just erring on the point you just made about fashionable Islam and the scarf.
Islam cannot be fashionable. Islam is not a play doe you can play with, whenever your mood says so?and in whichever way that gratify your desires.

Claiming down that hijab is not required is pure wrong. Hijab is not cultural is Islamic.
It says in the Qur'an that Muslim women should draw their veils over their bosoms when they go out so they will not be molested.

"Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that will make for greater purity for them; and Allah is well acquainted with all that they do. And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; and that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what must ordinarily appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their chests and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers..." (Qur'an 24:30-31)


Don?t you think there is a wisdom behind it???

To cover or not to cover the head is a personal choice, but saying that is not mandatory is erroneous period.


Now, do you have the guts to question the validity of Islam?or let me rephrase that: have you ever questioned the validity of the Qu?ran? Since you would change a lot about Islam, why don?t you change yourself, or get adapted to the religion?if not?be happy and stay atheist!

Sorry, but your comments make no sense!!!

Question why are you so obsessed with religious topics..You are far more likely to be praying..so what's the use of preaching something and believing in something else. Back off.

So long~

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3:06 pm    June 10, 2005
Ayur
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Ali, ur post makes no sense for me! sorry, but u're saying whatever!! next time I think u'll say that we gotta pray naked!!!
You said that no hadith and no soura stated that Imama is forbidden on women! but is there any hadith or soura that allows women to lead prayers? NO, and NO!
I have here a hadith for ya that has been posted many times, but u still ignore it! and I need a full explanation from u! Our prophet (SAW) said:
(??? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ????? )
So, can you please explain it? and tell me, how can a woman lead a prayer if she's not allowed to stay in the 1st rank? will she lead'em by praying felloure?
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2:34 pm    June 10, 2005
Ali
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Dear Sunshine,

quote

"I got your point! Islam is Ijtihad..in what terms though? Do you mean that it might be fashionable?"

1. I look at the Salat picture above and I am having some interesting thoughts.

2. It seems to me that Hijab is still looked at as a necessity during Salat and only for women.

3. If I understand this correctly, Salat is a one-to-one connection between Allah and your soul, mind, and heart. Does it really matter if 10% of you hair is visible? how about 20%? How about 50%? how about 100%?.

4. It seems that Hijab is just a cultural phenomenon passed on to our generation from the previous one. Note that Hijab and turbans are mainly easter fabrics to protect against the wind and the heat of the deserts, etc...

5. Having said that, the "Indian or Pakistani lookig woman sitting in the front without Hijab" is talking to Allah during her Salat. Who am I to interrupt that private holy communication?

6. I understand that we are all a product of "every visible inch of a woman is Haram, Hashouma, etc...". But, let's not define Islam by "Hijab on women".

7. As far as Fashion is concerned, If the Muslim world publicizes that women are allowed to lead mixed prayers (both men and women), and do their Salat without Hijab, Just maybe, all the western women will start learning and converting to Islam.

8. Now, just Imagine, an American blond, "sexy" woman doing Salat in shorts, in downtown Manhaten, or Boston, or Miami, etc...I think Islam can be fashionable. And for those who want to interpret Hijab using the Middle East way of Hijab, then that's fine.

9. Let's even go further, and let's see that a white blond boyfriend and his "hot" girlfriend doing their Salat, outside a restaurant, before they go on a date! You see the possibilities!

10. Now, some readers are going to argue that that is not Islam! I will argue back by saying that you have to "FASHION" islam to the environment in which it's practiced.

11. Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) was smart to get to people's hearts slowly and removing one bad habit at a time.

12. The Current Muslim leaders, start with "SCARY" stuff for the western women: HIJAB is a MUST. SEPARATION of men and women is a MUST. Well, HIJAB and SEPARATION ring the word DISCRIMINATION in the western woman's pshychi!

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan Wa Saalam!

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4:11 pm    June 8, 2005
Sunshine
174
Ok Adnane..It's noted...I will make sure to re-read my comments before submitting them!

Thanks~

Ali, I meant things we discussed back in elkarya and not back home, just a mistake...thinking about back home too much :-)

Forgive my typos!

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1:42 pm    June 8, 2005

Adnane Ben. message
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hello Sunshine - no actually there is no editing feature and that is in purpose. Although many times it is useful to correct words, even ideas in a submitted reply, but not being able has far greater advantage for the quality of the discussion. It encourages people to review what they are submitting. Hey if need to edit, just reply to that message and recapture the change, that way actually people know that a message is being "editted". Thanks!
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12:55 pm    June 8, 2005
observant
Sunshine
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No editing feature?
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12:19 pm    June 8, 2005
Sunshine
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Not sure if you are the same person I have in mind ..but I think it will be really boring the discuss the same thing we have already discussed back home.

I hope I am wrong...otherwise I will be out of here as well,

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12:13 pm    June 8, 2005
Sunshine
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12:09 pm    June 8, 2005
Sunshine
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Dear Ali,

I got your point! Islam is Ijtihad..in what terms though? Do you mean that it might be fashionable?

You have said that mister Quardawi said it is Ok for the women imama to lead in prayers! Sounds good.. do you agree with most of his fatawi though?! (I don?t!)

Back to the main topic, let?s say that there is no such thing that Imama woman is Haram! Ok then! Deal is sealed and accepted! Don?t you think they went pretty far with their new rules! I have never seen someone praying without a scarf, AND with a make up on?.etc., is that Ijtihad?! Sigh!!! I am lost! Let me adjust those cognitive motors?I have a very learning process.. bear with me here.

?Based on the above, an Imama with such a high degree, very good language skills (Arabic, english, etc...) can deliver a powerful "Serment" Khotba during Friday! Nothing is wrong with that!?

Nice! I agree?don?t forget that I am a woman, and I do favor most of the feminist ideologies ONLY when they tend to make good, logical, and solid points! (make sense)

?In fact, I have been to many mosques, led by your typical Imama with a beard, and a firm believer in the Koran verse: "Arrejalo Kawwamouna Ala An-nissa". This verse gets interpreted as men are above women. This is wrong.?

My typical Imam?!! Hmm.. as far as I remember I didn?t spell out the description of my typical Imam. In fact, I have no typical one?and I rarely go to the mosque! ?"Arrejalo Kawwamouna Ala An-nissa". That?s just mere stupidity! I always found this verse interesting!

I agree with #5. Scoll up to the top of the page,,,,and look at the picture for few seconds? Do you see any good images?!


As for #8? I found it quite interesting?don?t you think this is quite ironic! Or maybe you are just being sarcastic!

Peace and Love,

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11:56 am    June 8, 2005
Ali
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Dear Sunshine,

quote
"Someone who is claiming that Islam has never been fair enough toward Women MUST be joking me. I don?t buy it. She is aanother ignorant suffering from ADHA period. "

Here are a few Sahih Hadiths to think about (Women, dogs, and donkeys):
===========================
"(4) Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas: Qatadah said: I heard Jabir ibn Zayd who reported on the authority of Ibn Abbas; and Shu'bah reported the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) as saying: A menstruating woman and a dog cut off the prayer. (Book #2, Hadith #0703)"

============================

(4) Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas: Qatadah said: I heard Jabir ibn Zayd who reported on the authority of Ibn Abbas; and Shu'bah reported the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) as saying: A menstruating woman and a dog cut off the prayer. (Book #2, Hadith #0703)

=============================
(5) Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas: Ikrimah reported on the authority of Ibn Abbas, saying: I think the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: When one of you prays without a sutrah, a dog, an ass, a pig, a Jew, a Magian, and a woman cut off his prayer, but it will suffice if they pass in front of him at a distance of over a stone's throw. (Book #2, Hadith #0704)

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11:19 am    June 8, 2005
Ali
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Dear Sunshine,

qoute

"1-I am not a scholar but I do no know what I have to do as a Muslim, and I also sense my limits. Do we have to start from the scratch and learn about the Islamic manners so we can get an idea about what is halal what is haram?"

1. I am not a scholar either.

2. But please do not just repeat the old execuse "Let the scholars decide". This is the age of the internet. If you go to www.searchtruth.com, they have a good search engine to search both the Koran and Hadith. A scholar is just as effective as you, because of the search engines.

3. In fact, the so called scholars are aging and are behind in technology. Most regular (no scholar) people do a quick search on a hadith and come up with powerfull arguments against the so called scholar positions.

4. It seems to me that the scholars are being discredited with how quickly regular people surpace their ability to write a fatwa or opinion.

5. Again, in the case of the Imama opinion by Mr Mufti Al Qaradawi. He was unable to use the Koran nor the Sahih Hadith to state that Imama is Haram.

6. So, he relied on a WEAK Hadith to justify that Imama is "inappropriate" or in our Moroccan lingo "Hshouma".

7. Maybe there is a version of Islam called "Islam Hshouma Edition"


Jazakomo Allaho Khairan Wa Saalam!

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11:10 am    June 8, 2005
Ali
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Dear Sunshine,

quote

"2-If you can give me one reason why imama should be allowed then you might convince me changing my whole point of view about this issue. Give it a try!"

1. There is no Koran verse to forbid a woman. Who are you to go against the wishes of Allah?

2. There is no Sahih Hadith to forbid Imama. Who are you to go against the wishes of our Prophet?

3. A woman with a PhD in Islamic Studies is far more qualified to deliver a Friday Serment (Khotba) than an old Imama with a degree in memorizing the Koran from a Madrassa in an unknown city in Morocco!

4. Since an Imam can have a "sexy ass" as well, we should also say that some males who might be Gay or females who are attracted to the Imam's ass might be sexually aroused during Salat.

5. The reason for my comment in item 4 is to show you that the only execuse by the anti-Imama camp is the "sex and ass"

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan Wa Saalam!

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11:03 am    June 8, 2005
Ali
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Dear Sunshine,

quote:

"5-Islam is simple and clear, either you take or you leave?. If it doesn?t fit your ideology and expectations from live, leave it , and go look for another religion that gratify your desires? wait a second? why don?t you guys come up with brand new branch.. and call it: Islam a la modernite."

1. Islam allows Ijtihad.

2. This is the 21st century and let's face it: Women do have PhD's in Islamic studies, etc...

3. Based on the above, an Imama with such a high degree, very good language skills (Arabic, english, etc...) can deliver a powerful "Serment" Khotba during Friday! Nothing is wrong with that!

4. In fact, I have been to many mosques, led by your typical Imama with a beard, and a firm believer in the Koran verse: "Arrejalo Kawwamouna Ala An-nissa". This verse gets interpreted as men are above women. This is wrong.

5. So, these types of Imams, in my opinion, are at the root of some of the bad Islamic messages being put forth at the Mosque level.

6. As far as people coming up with different Islam branches, I will assume that you know that there are many branches already: Maliki, Hanbali, shiaa, Baha's, ahmadia, shafii, and now we are seeing the emerging of new Islamic branches in the west.

7. The western muslims and the immigrants to these countries will create new ways of practicing Islam in a western society, using Ijtihad!

8. Some of the main problems with Muslim immigrants, is that the Muslim leaders in their communities try to impose customs learnt backhome, in a western society. This leads to very low mosque attendance!

9. I have discussed Islam 1.0, Islam 2.0, etc...in another thread (Check it out and let me know what you think!)

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan Wa Saalam!

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2:18 pm    June 6, 2005
Sunshine
164
Dearest brothers in Islam,

1-I am not a scholar but I do no know what I have to do as a Muslim, and I also sense my limits. Do we have to start from the scratch and learn about the Islamic manners so we can get an idea about what is halal what is haram?
2-If you can give me one reason why imama should be allowed then you might convince me changing my whole point of view about this issue. Give it a try!
3-Whoever this imama is coming from, and whatever degrees she has so far?to me she is just a lost bird in the desert! She is confused? Go read some of her works, and you will find out what I am talking about. Someone who is claiming that Islam has never been fair enough toward Women MUST be joking me. I don?t buy it. She is aanother ignorant suffering from ADHA period.
4-My brother, for God?s sake, look at the picture, and tell what do you think about. un-scarfed women mixed with men, praying?? A question that comes out of curiosity: worshipping whom? Islam? Or the Goddess of women rights and modern Islam?
5-Islam is simple and clear, either you take or you leave?. If it doesn?t fit your ideology and expectations from live, leave it , and go look for another religion that gratify your desires? wait a second? why don?t you guys come up with brand new branch.. and call it: Islam a la modernite.


What does BUSH have to do with this? Give me a breakkkkkkkk

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6:34 am    June 5, 2005
Ayur
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Adnane, this is the Fitna, kaynewdouha we kayetkhebbaw! it shows that it has no basis! just trouble making!
If they were really sure about what they're cleamin, they won't stop askin for it! but they wanna just disturb people inside Muslim countries, and keep the noise outta states!
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7:50 pm    June 4, 2005

Adnane Ben. message
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no see Ali!... missed your bullets and enumerations :P

For 4. you're being sarcastic, right? Bush has nothing to do with it. I hear people saying this maybe supported by government mechanics. I do not believe that. For the rest, any update from dr. Amina Wadud? fin wasslat? things sort of got quiet in the news about the Imama story.

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2:14 pm    June 4, 2005
Ali
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Dear Sunshine,

"Someone said that there is nothing in Qu'ran againt the imama, my brother, it seems you are not knowledgeable about Islam. Before making such conclusion I urge to open up the sacred book and read it and understand it and follow it, if you are a real Muslim."

1. I opened the Holy Koran and I did not find a single verse forbiding a woman from being an Imama.

2. Now, it's your turn: I am challenging you to bring ONE verse from the Holy Koran that specifically forbids a woman from being an Imama (hint: There's NONE!)

3. I am looking forward to learning about the Koran and Imama!

4. Finally: The Cultural Muslims forbiding Imama are not using the Holy Koran nor the Sunnah to justify their stand. They are simply not ready to change their backward thinking process until "Bush" does it for them!

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa Assalam!

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2:48 pm    May 29, 2005
Sunshine
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Those people are brainwashed!! They can hardly pronouce their Shahada, and they can barely understand its meaning.
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10:48 am    May 29, 2005
OB
159
1
Aslam alikum,
I'am not really certain, but seriously, do these people in the picture get money for doing such an act??
cuz I am 100% sure that no one will have this idea from just out of the blue!!!

lets not also make them our main concirn and pray them for guidness

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7:12 pm    May 27, 2005
Sunshine
158
1
Hello everyone,

I couldn't read all the comments, but here is what I think about this issue.

As a woman I don't need to lead in prayers to prove to my fellow men that I am equal to them.
As a Muslim, I won't make Islam fashionable, so it can fit.
As a Muslim woman, I am ashamed these women.

Those women are fed up with woman rights ideals. They don't know that they don't have to go that far, rebelling against Islam, so they can make their point and reach egalitarian.

Islam is a blessing from God. Islam does not make any difference between white or black, or male and female. The callers of this freedom are simply erring.

I don't need to hear the loud barking of the fighters for women rights. I am free so what?s the point from this fake calling. Isn?t just a waste of time?! Come on ladies and gentlemen, you must be kidding me if you think I am less than my fellow Adam.


Someone said that there is nothing in Qu'ran againt the imama, my brother, it seems you are not knowledgeable about Islam. Before making such conclusion I urge to open up the sacred book and read it and understand it and follow it, if you are a real Muslim.

No one of our prophet wives' was an Imama..what's wrong with that? Isn't this a hint for for your thick skull to help in grasping the truth????

Why don?t they come up with a new religion and call it Modern Islam for Modern ladies. Those people are just insane!!

May God enlighten their minds and seek them to the right path

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5:08 pm    May 27, 2005
zinkh
157
This is just becoming silly game, maybe we should think about things that really matters in our religion, and let people do what they want, The issue is really different in occidental world than in our muslim countries, after all wars against islam, The Iraqi war, and now the war which is going to happen between sunna and chiaa in Iraq and in Pakistan. I do really feel that this issue doesn't affect me personally and is not of the importance that we accord to it, before that let's talk about real women liberties in islam, the right to vote, even the right of driving a car is not given to women in some countries, so let's begin step by step, and when we will be ready we can then discuss such unimportant things...
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1:52 pm    May 18, 2005
imeno
156
" (Please stop giving me the stupid classic answer: Men will be looking at the Imama's ass! We can do better than that!)"

i highly doubt it LOL

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6:19 am    May 16, 2005
Ali
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154
To my fellow brothers:

1. There is no verse in the Koran prohibiting women from being Imama to both MEN and WOMEN in a MOSQUE

2. There is no Sahih Hadith prohibiting women from being Imama to both MEN and WOMEN in a MOSQUE

3. Even the BIG SHOT mufti Al-Qaradawi agrees with items 1 and 2 above.

4. So what the hell is the problem here?

5. It's CULTURAL ISLAM in action!

6. At the end of this debate, what my fellow Muslims will realize is this: What is the big deal about an Imama leading both men and women? (Please stop giving me the stupid classic answer: Men will be looking at the Imama's ass! We can do better than that!)

7. Ten years from now, I suspect that in the West, Imama will be a very common thing and not news at all. In fact, in Italy, a Moroccan female has led both men and women in prayer. What is left now is how to introduce this "STATE OF THE ART TECHNOLOGICAL EVENT" to the EAST, MUSLIM COUNTRIES!

8. I am a man and I am looking forward to being led in prayer by a woman. I hope somebody can make up some Hadith stating that if you pray behin an Imam, you get 27 Hassanat and if you pray behind an Imama, you get 54 Hassanat (Double the Hassanat for a change)

Jazakomo Allaho Khairan, Wa Assalam!

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4:01 pm    May 14, 2005
Youssef
154
Ferhanine , kaydirou lkhater lnssara ou makhafouch men rab l3ibad . bach nssara igoulou rah lmesselmine tewerou.
li chaf had tsswira , igoul hadouk rahoum kit3ebdou Allah bi khouchou3, la hawla billah wala kowata ila beh. fach raje wela kisseli mora lmra achmen khir kaytssena lbachar men had l oma.???!!
wach ma3erfou ana Allah kayl3en lkawoum li katseyrhom mra.??!
LA HAWLA WALA KOWTA ILA BILLAH .
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3:53 pm    May 14, 2005
Youssef
153
La hawla wala kowata ila billah ,
zaman albida3 hada , hadouk mahechmouch tema ou ki salou f kanissa ,hadik li tema ghir tsseli b mini hssen , bach tbane m3a la mode , nweliw hna bhal nssara, Ila ma3erfouch issalaw , ikhaliw ahl al 3ilm iweriwhoum kifach kan sidna rassoul Allah kaydir m3a lmarawat dialo.


la hawla wala kowata ila bilah , yarabi ssterna mina lfitani ma dahara minha (bhal hadi ) wa ma batina .Amine ya rab Al Alamine.

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5:28 am    May 13, 2005
boukal
152
about this and other thing on
www slaoui tk
salam alikoum
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9:59 am    May 9, 2005
mosa
151
150
hello, i wrote yr written , if u have time come on line . my mail

mouss_a2000@yahoo.com

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7:44 am    May 9, 2005
Yassir
150
We keep complaining about the Moroccan government and so on.. did you ask your self : what did i do to help my country?changing people's bahaviour starts from us?
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9:26 am    May 6, 2005

Adnane Ben. message
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148
we'll do. I am not too fond of the system over there either. Layssaweb, it seems it takes Moroccans "government-related" ages to improve and treat fellow Moroccans politely.
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7:31 am    May 6, 2005
Katkouta
148
Sorry this is off topic. but i did not know where to post this.

Adnane, could you please create a thread about Moroccans and their experience with the Moroccan Consulate. Now that they put the phone menu (for this, press 1, for that press 2), you almost never get hold of these people and their politness is forced. It would be interesting to compile all the concerns and send them to our consulate in the hope the service gets improved.

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12:47 pm    May 5, 2005
Nego
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146
Can bring us a proof where a6abari said it was ok for women to lead prayers???
There is no ikhtilaf or whatsoever regarding women praying with no veils or women leading mixed prayers.

Regarding Mary entering Alqudss while it was forbiden for women, i would tell you to re-read the story of mary ( from the muslims point of view) and you will notice that she did not enter on her own, but she was given to the temple , so she was raised there, usually only boys were the ones to be given to the Temple to be raised there, but since Omm 3imran promised that her child would be given to the Temple before she gave birth to this child, then she had to honor her word and when her child was born , it was a girl that she named Mary. So that is why she was in Temple. did she lead men in prayers?? No.

Since we are talking about Islam and Muslims i think you should look at Fatima, Aicha, Oumm Salamah, etc those are the sa7abiyates that would have more knowledge than even the best scholars now. but still they did not say women can lead prayers.

What else more than te hadiths that say that women should be praying at their houses it is better for them.

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8:41 am    May 5, 2005

abdelilah message
146
Bismillah rahman rahim

I do not know how we got to the point where people issue fatwas and rulings without even reading what is going on. The issue of a woman leading the prayer is not that easy.
1) There is ikhtilaaf among scholars regarding this. Attabari said that a woman can be an imam without any conditions. Other scholars said a woman can only lead her family or in the nawafil.
2) Even if we agree with those who say that it is not a difference issue and that it is haram, we can benefit from the story of mary mother of Jesus peace be upon them. She entered the Quds temple and it was strictly forbidden for women to enter it in the Shari3a of Musaa. According to most scholars she was a saint not a prophet, so she did a "haram" thing based on inspiration from God and not revelation (Saints receive inspirations). And saints will exist until the end of time, so maybe Amina Wadud is a saint.
3) As for the mut3a marriage, there is a huge controversy too. First, one has to read the hadiths of the shi3a in this matter. Second, the Sunna criticize the shia but they have it too even worse. According to ibn kudama's al mughni yajouzou idmarou niyyati talaak. Also in abu bakr al jazairi al fiqh 3ala madahib al arba3a he specifies in the chapter about zawah al muhallil that in the hanafi fiqh the intention of the muhallil in the marriage does not count.

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9:15 pm    May 3, 2005
Othmane
145
I think Muslims should not blame these women, it all depends on the way you interpret Islam and you should not be blamed for being free to choose the way you want to exercise your faith. Of course there are degrees of faith, the more you move near the thruth (case of these women in the NYC mosques) the more toleration your faith gains. For me I'm lucky to have already passed that stage and I now undestand that faith and spirituality are created by humans and that those rituals and prayers, in my opinion, are considered a mental case in a world where logical thinking and science are dominant.
With all respect to all religions, I hope reason will open your eyes to the truth and bless you! It even feels better than faith, trust me.
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8:42 am    May 1, 2005
chafi
144
120
d'abord jene trouve pas que la fa?on dont Mr Ninni aborde le sujet des imams est amusante(fanny) je trouve plutot que cet individu parle du sujet avec mauvaise fois il fait tout pour ridiculiser les imams et de fa?on indirecte l'Islam et il n'est pas le seul bcp e journalistes marocains l'ont fait avant lui.Certesil y'a des imams qui commettent des erreurs ils sont des humains et no pas des anges.en ce qui concerne le pape je vois mal pourquoi on devrait etre si triste pour sa mort je veux dire pas plus que n'importe quel etre humain apres tout c'est quelqu'un qui croit et propage l'id?e que Jesus est le fils de Dieu rien que pour cela je crois que Dieu l'a rammener a ses cot?s pourqu'il voit de ses propres yeux qu'il avait tord.Enfin pour la femme qui a fait la Khotba et la SAlat de Jomoa je ne crois pas quec une musulmane dabord le lieu ou s'est deroul?e la priere une eglise ensuite le pays les USA c'est tres significatifs on voit bien qui est derriere tout cela si ces gens avez quelque chose de convainquant ils aurraient demand? a discuter avec des Machayekhs et leur exposr leur point de vue et essayer de les convaincre c plutot de la provocation ni plus ni moins,enfin ils sortiront dela plus petite porte de l'histoire.
·

3:11 pm    April 27, 2005
khayyam
143
Au temps de Ljahiliyya, la femme araba n'avait aucun presque aucun droit. Meme le droit de la vie lui etait souvent retiree. La femme de l'epoque etait consideree a l'epoque comme un simple objet sexuel ou une simple marchandise dont on se servait pour atteindre ses plaisirs personnels ou garantir sa propre progeniture... Rien d'autre..

L'avenement de l'ISlam a eu lieu dans ce contexte la. Notre religion a contribue largement a la recuperation de la femme de qqs uns de ses droits elementaires. Mais il faut aussi savoir que l'Islam n'a pas tout "rendu" a la femme (comme il a fait avec plusieurs autres phenomenes politiques, sociaux ou economiques) pour une grande 7ikma Ilahiya: Plutot que de causer un grd bouleversement social qui risquerait de couter cher a l'expansion de l'Islam, on a plutot opte pour appliquer des changements (qui ont ete parfois profonds) mais qui restent inscrits dans une certaine continuit? des choses. Cela a eu lieu avec la condition de la femme, l'esclavage, l'Irth.... et plsieurs autres phenomenes... (Imaginez juste une seconde qu'on ait permis aux femmes de devenir Imam dans un environnement comme celuide Quraysh a l'epoque !!)

De nos jours, avec l'evolution de la mentalite humaine ainsi que l'evolution de la situation sociale de la femme en general dans toutes les societes du monde, des acquis obtenus grace aux contributionx de toutes les civilisations humaines (qui restent un heritage commun pour tt le monde)... Dans ces circonstances, on a ete affronte a une realite inevitable ---> L'homme et la femme sont deux creatures egales dans les droits et dans les obligations (et nul ne peut contredire que l'Islam, lui aussi, pronne cette idee la). S'inscrivant dans cette vision, je trouve tout a fait normal qu'un femme puisse aspirer a occuper n'importe quel poste politique, religieux, social... que son pair.

Je salue l'initiative de cette femme, mais je regrete qd meme que l'exemple doive tjrs nous venir des States vu le contexte politique actuel. Et je suis sur que ce fait derange plus nos "musulmans" que le fait qu'une femme devienne Imama

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9:49 am    April 27, 2005
Charif
142
141
Thank you for your comment, i found it right..
I would have changed that myself if i had reviewed my text before replying it.
You are right Someone !
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11:51 am    April 26, 2005
someone
141
i have just a small comment for charif , i totally agree with all what you said but the following:
"laissons la mosquee comme nos encetres l ont etablient"
i'll rather say"comme le prophete l'a etablie"

car si on a vit d'enorme divergence
,concernant la religion bien sure , de nos jours dans notre monde musulman c'est bien a cause de ca

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8:36 am    April 23, 2005
youssef
140
Sans commentaire!!!!

La 7awla wa la 9ouwata illa billah, Almounkar b3inih

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6:36 pm    April 22, 2005
charif
139
137
Tjis reply is just for thaking Achraf for the translation. Very kind !
·

2:22 pm    April 22, 2005
achraf
138
Here is an open discussion about the subject.It's very good although long, a little more than an hour

http://s43.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=1QGXYKN32AC9X19PNRWZCY0Q6K

Salam

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1:45 pm    April 22, 2005
achraf
137
135
I dont agree with all the terms but the overall is good so here is my translation as requested:
"Having see the report, this does not reflect a JOMOA SALAT, but an -acting like.
I agree with the freedom and the equality of women, however, lets leave the Mosque just like our ancesters have established it. I am sure that the idea of a women leading a JOMOA prayer is not initiated by Muslims, these are only challenges with the goal of creating confusion...
Let's leave our Islam alone.. Islam is a straight illustration of freedom, equality of opposit sex and different races, so don't play with this valuable inheritance.
Moreover, women praying beside men..! Let's see , it is not a nice social guathering, we are standing in from of God, Shouldn't we elimiminate any sort of temptation at that time? There should be no games with prayer.. One question; was there any prophet woman before????
Stop Tabarnaque !!!! reply
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11:28 am    April 21, 2005
Charif
136
My english is weak. If you agree with my previous opinion, please translate my text from french to english and reply it. It would be fi sabili allah. Thank you very much.
·

11:07 am    April 21, 2005
Charif
135
A voir le reportage, cela ne reflete pas une salat joumouaa, mais du --faire semblant--.
Je suis pour la liberte et l egalite de la femme , mais laissons la mosquee comme nos encetres l ont etablient. Je suis sur que cette idee de presider la joumouaa par une femme n est pas initiee par des musulmans, ce n est que des defis lances pour semer la confusion...
Laisser notre islam tranquille.. L islam c est meme l illustration franche de la liberte et de l egalite des sexes et des races, alors ne niaisez pas avec ce precieux heritage.
De plus, des femmes priant cote a cote avec des hommes..! Voyons , c est pas une soiree dans un pub, on se met en face de dieu, doit on couper toute sorte de tentation en ce momment ? On ne joue pas avec la salat.. Une question; y a t il deja eu une femme prophete ????
Arreter Tabarnaque !!!!
·

3:20 am    April 20, 2005
khayibaba
134
125
if you want to learn about who Dr suleiman is you can check his website at:
www.almoslim.net
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9:52 am    April 19, 2005
Ayur
133
Even the Prayer of 'Oum Waraqa' is a WEAK Hadith (As said some scholars)

???? ???? ???? ???????: ?? ?? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?? ??????: ?? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ?????" (??? ??? ???? ?????? ???????).

???? ?????? ????? ??????? ??????

·

8:32 am    April 19, 2005

Adnane Ben. message
132
131
It is really striking how today's scholars and religious figures have different opinions about this... not only raioo scholars :)
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5:15 pm    April 18, 2005
tarik
131
http://www.moroccotimes.com/paper/article.asp?idr=11&id=5780
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11:41 am    April 18, 2005
Nego
130
129
Our prophet(PBUH) indeed never allowed women to lead MIXED prayers, but he salla AALLAHOU 3alayhi wasallam allowed them to lead prayers that are not mixed, the only difference is that the imama should stand in the same line with the other women.

This special case he did allow her to lead the prayer with some of the men in the house(son+husband).

There many hadiths that prohibits women from leading prayers- you just did not see them. they are even presented here. one of them is the best prayer for a woman is the prayer she makes at home, You can see here that the Prophet(PBUH) is dicouragiong women from going to the mosque at all. Then there is another hadith that mentiones that the worst line of women praying is the first line and the best is the last line, Here also you can see claerly(hopefully) that the Prophet(PBUH) is discouraging women at the mosque from being in the first line. so in these two hadiths, can't you conclude that women cannot lead the prayer if their best line is the last one??

These are arguments that makes sense, if they don't do it for you, then that is your opinion that i respect.

·

10:47 am    April 18, 2005
arabie
129
128
You just missed the point...the argument is that it is always hard to prove a negative. I brought up that story about the women who lead the prayer in her household just to make "sister in Islam" on post 123 realize that what she said is not entirely true and she needs to be precise when she says that our prophet never allowed women to lead prayer....Nevertheless, that example is certainly not a proof to use against women leading prayer. That example doesn't EXPLICITLY porhibit women from leading prayer of mixed genders in public.

Please keep in mind that I am not pro or against these women...I want find some concrete proofs as opposed to emotionally driven ones. As of now the studies done and presented in articles, which I read some of, had me leaning toward the illegitimacy of these acts but there more arguments and studies to be made in that matter.

Unless of course you can quote something from "Quran" or "Sunnah" that will put this matter to rest......

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9:57 am    April 18, 2005
Nego
128
127
I meant to say she did not lead people from her tribe, BUT indeed she did lead men in her house, maybe her sons or even husband if he couldn't lead the prayer. But that was just a special case, she did not lead stranger men. ONLY HER HOUSEHOLD MEN. which are only her sons and husband.
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6:08 pm    April 15, 2005
imeno
127
126
Yes it was specifically in her household, but also it was specifically only for women. She did not lead men, nor asked to do so, nor was given permission to lead men in prayers.

Those who don't like it: you are of course entitled to your opinion. No one is forcing you to be a Muslim or to stand up for Islam.
You don't have to like the 7oukm/Islamic rule. But you also don't have the right to change it.
If some people don't want Islam with its rules then why don't they just go their way respectfully, in peace..

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3:00 pm    April 15, 2005
Nego
126
124
You said it, The prophet(PBUH) allowed a woman ( OUmm wara9ah) to lead the prayers in her household, that was a very special case, and ONLY in her household. What you failed to mention is that the prophet(PBUH) did not allow her to make adhan, so he asked a man to make adhan for her. then here is your proof that it is prohibited for a woman to raise her voice for an adhan. The proof for prohibiting a woman from leading prayers, is that the prophet(PBUH) only allowed this woman to lead the prayer in her household but not her tribe or village.

I don't think we are lost in this matter, you might be. but the majority know that women are better praying in their homes.

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12:23 pm    April 15, 2005

Rasta Gnawi message
125
The aticle on the pope is downright silly. Who is this Dr Sulaiman anyway?
·

10:05 am    April 15, 2005
arabie
124
123
" if our prophet muhammad (Salla Lahou 3layhi Wassalam) did not allow this then who is any other man or woman to speak and support these women to do so."

Where is it that you read that our prophet Mohammad (Salla Lahou 3layhi wassalam) did not allow this. If you read the articles people took the pain to read and share with us, you'll realize that our prophet actually did allow a woman to lead prayer in her household. Now no one so far was able to prove that God or our prophet didn't allow this, and that is what we are discussing.

We know that many people including you are not happy about this to say the least but we have to have a valid reason that 'Quran' and 'Sunnah' not some guy (even if a religious scholar) telling you that. I say that because that is one of the main beneficial points of Islam, i.e., there is no one between you and Allah. Quran and Sunnah is your guidness when you get lost.
Now we're lost about this matter, there is nothing so far in the Quran or Sunnah that clearly porhibits a woman from leading a prayer or allow it. Thus, there are some true religious scholars who are studying this matter and have put up very compeling arguments.

However, thanks for sharing your opinion!

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7:15 am    April 15, 2005
sister in islam
123
Astigfirullah, and subhanallah this is absolutely absurd. I know theres alot of you that won't probly like me saying this but tough! if our prophet muhammad (p.b.u.h) did not allow this then who is any other man or woman to speak and support these women to do so. U know this is so wrong, think about it if it was for us then don't u think the prophet would have told us. So silly, we shouldn't judge, its come to a point where today muslims are not muslims no more all you can do is make du'aaaa in sha allah and i hope those that are reading this too agree.

salaamz

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2:20 pm    April 14, 2005
Swedish
122
its not hurting my submission to Allalh..its hurting herself..and what Allah has comended needs to be done..If I commit a sin, it does not affect Allah not even a micro bite but then am disobeying Allah's commends and unless my sin does not affect anybody else but me, then my brother and sister should be concerened.
Thanks and i want to say one more thing..the topic's introduction is great and may Allah reward who wrote it.
Wa salamo Alaikom reply

·

1:27 pm    April 12, 2005
Ayur
121
120
hehehe ana lli 9etlatni be dda7ke, hiya dyale: ssi bouch3aybe sami3a llahou liman 7amidah!
walakine personnaly, quiete all the Imam are s7abe lekrouche, ach kaydirou fel3radate! hehehe
·

12:50 pm    April 12, 2005

Adnane Ben. message
120
This article contains some funny jokes about Imams dyewelna fel Maghrib - and maybe future Imamat. Male Imams rahoum qashabathoum wass3a, will female Imam also have wsssou3iyat qashaba since there will be tons of jokes? that's to be seen =)

http://ayur1.free.fr/Ninni.gif

·

10:59 am    April 12, 2005
khayibaba
119
????? ?????? ???? ??????
???? ???? ????? ?????

?. ?. ???? ?? ?????? ?????
??? ?????? 7037
??????

?????? ????? ????? ???? ???????
????? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ????????? ?????? ?????? ?? ???????? ??????? ?????? ?? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ??? ??????? ?? ??????? ?????? ?????
????? : ?? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ?
?????? : ?? ?????????? ?? ??????? ?
?????? : ?? ???? ???? ??????? ???? ?
?????? : ?? ?????? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ???????? ??????? ??????? ?? ?? ?
???? ??????? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ?????

???????

????? ??? ?? ????????? ??????? ??????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??????? ????
??? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ?? ?????? ???????? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ?????? ??????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ???????? ?????? ????????? ?? ???? ??????? ?????? ??????? ??????? ????? ????
???? ?? ???? ???????? ????? ?? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ?????? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ???????. ????? ????????
???? ?? ??? ????? ??? ??? ??????? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ?? ???? ?? ??????? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ?? ????? ???? ?? ??????? ??? ??? ??????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ?????? (??? ??? ?? ???? ??? ???? ?? ?? ???? ???? )
?????? ?????
1- ?????? ???? ?? ?? ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??? ??? ?????
2- ?? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ??????: (??? ????? ??????????? ??????????? ??????? ???? ?????????????? ??????????????? ?????? ??????? ?????? ??????? ???? ?????? ??? ????????? ?????? ????????? ????????? ??????????) (??????:113)? ???? ??????: (?????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ??? ??????) (??????:84 ) ??????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ??? ?????? (????????? ??????????? ?????????? ????? ???????) (??????: ?? ?????30)? ????? ?????? ??????? ???? ?? ?????? ????? ???????
3- ??? ????? ??????? ??? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??????? ??? ????? ????? ??????? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ??????? ???????? ? ??? ??? ??? ????? -
4- ??? ??????? ????? ?????
?? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ??????? ?? ??? ????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ?? ????? ?? ??? ??? ????? ?? ??????? ? ??? ??? ??? ????? ? ???? ???? ? ?? ????? ?????? (????? ??? ?????) ?1/?438 ??? ?? ???????.
??? ???? ??????? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ??????? ?????? ????? ??????? ???????? ?????? ????? ????? ??????? ???? ???? ??? ???????? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ?????? ???? ?????????? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??? ?? ??????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ?? (????? ??? ????? ) { ??? ????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ??? ?? ??????? ????????? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?? ??? ?? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ???: ???? ???? ???? ???? ?????"}.?? ??
??? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??????? ???? ??? ??????????? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ?? ???? ?? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ????????? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??????? ? ??? ????? ???? ?? ???? ??????? ??? ???? ?? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ?? ????
??? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ?? ??? ????? ?????? : { ??????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ?? ??????? ??????? ???????? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ?? ??????? } ????? ?????? 2/303?
????? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ????? ??????? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?? ????????? ??? ?? ????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ????? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ??????? ? ??? ?? ????? ????? ? ???? ???? ?? ???? ??? ??? ??????? ??? ??? ??????? ???????? ???
???? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??????
?. ???? ?????

·

9:45 am    April 12, 2005
zou7zou7a
118
117
Whatever makes you happy ;)
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8:57 am    April 12, 2005
Nego
117
116
If it is the Pope we are talking about the same man, but if you say a peace maker then we are talking about two different people.
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8:36 am    April 12, 2005
zou7zou7a
116
Then we are talking about the same man...
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6:53 am    April 12, 2005
Nego
115
114
Peace maker????? are we talking about the same man???
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3:37 pm    April 11, 2005
zou7zou7a
114
Since this is a section for spirituality, i just want to say how sad I'm for the loss of the pope.Not only he was a religious figure but also a great spiritual leader and a peace maker.
God bless his soul.
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11:21 am    April 11, 2005
Ayur
113
hanyatoons, b7ale cartoons =)
·

12:20 pm    April 10, 2005
Omega
112
110
Sorry bro, if I did sound harsh and did
offend you ...

peace !

Stoff- Sir tergod ! :)

·

6:55 am    April 10, 2005
Stoffy
111
omega, li yedih fe telj machi bhale li yedih fe l3afya
aji nta be3da, why did u go outside morocco, to study? to work? to find a better life? why? ma3ajbekch lmaghrib? mafihch lmadrasate welkhdami? daba nta ma mezyanch hite hrebti mene bladek wemchiti leblade nas. we bach atetla3 had leblade ila ma bka fiha hetta wahed? daba nta hypocrit, monafik bel3arbiya.
li kayebghi lmaghrib, kayebka fih, mtayef m3a denya.
ila ktebe hacha sami3ine, hadak choghlo, at least he's facing the daylife there,kay3ich dakchi li nta tla3ti jabane we hrebti menou. we matla3ch monafik.
ana jite le states krite we khdemte, we ngoulha bsaraha, manekderch nerje3 lelmaghrib, walakine nas li fdik leblad sa3ida kanehtaremhom, hite sabrine we kaydirou li fjehdhom wakha lkadiya khayba.ma jatch assi omega tgoule 3lih dik lhedra.
ayur big up akhoya, rani khdite email dyalek mene board, yak the same?
peace yall
·

5:50 am    April 10, 2005
Ayur
110
I won't reply to all this either, as the level is getting lower here! And your way of discussion shows your personnality! LLAH yechafik!
I was expecting your post, since I gave you ALL the arguments but still rassek 9asse7! Lji7ade or what we call "Law tarete me3za"
One thing: I DON'T HATE MOROCCO, and l7amdou lillah I DID and STILL DO many GOOD things to my country(LLAH yej3alha fmizane l7asanate), I hope you do so, coz Morocco is in need of this!And I don't need your opinion or anyone else's to proove my love for my country! Capitto?
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8:08 pm    April 9, 2005
Omega
109
108
Actually I shouldn't comment to your posts at all, because you are contradicting yourself and getting of track all the time, but just for the sake of entertainement :) let me ask you this :

Would you drink a glass of milk if a debbana falls in it ? If you believe in the debbana hadith, then you should drink the glass, because that would be part of the sunna.
If you do, then you must have exotic habits...If you don't, then you are a hypocrit !

kif derti W'halti, that's true... but that's not because of me, its because of your twisted reasoning.

If I would have to ask Qardawi about the content of the fly's wings, then I might as well give him my DVD to repear it .


I did comment about your nick, because you claimed that the moroccans are Heggara of other nations, yet you call morocco hasha sami3ine...Cann't you see that you are undermining your own country, you little clown !?
You defend Yemeni propagenda and you hate your own country,
Nta kon 3eshti fel kharij, korak mane3raf ashnou gelti 3la lmaghrib...maybe that's why God is keeping you in Imintanout .


The more you talk the more you show signs of a brain damage.

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10:45 am    April 9, 2005
Ayur
108
107
Omega, daba kimma derna m3ak we7la, you asked some questions, and you get the answers, ghir zeyyer! You asked about Cheikh Zendani if he is a theologist or what, the 2nd link prooved that he has made many studies and researches mixing Islam and sciences (especially in the I3jaze) and I guess many remember the famous tapes (from the 80ies and 90ies) showing seminars of Zendani and scientists from all over the world! And I don't give a clue if he deals with ben laden wella ibnou battouta, I'm talking about the facts right here, not his relatives.
You asked for his work, and u get'em in the link, in the link there're some studies about THE EMBRYONIC PHASES, FACTS ABOUT THE SEAS AND OCEANS, STAGES OF THE CREATION OF MAN ...etc, I wrote'em in MAJ so in case u didn't see them =)
the whole biology issue was first brought to our discussion by you(Post 86), so the one who needs the reset button will be you!
The hadith I brought was already posted before, and I don't think it's outta topic, unless u have other interpretations for this Hadith
Your comments about the location I put, are somehow dkhoule se77a!
Advice: Next time, don't post 3 or 4 times to reply my msg, coz it shows that u are nervous and confused, just take a deep breathe, write down some notes that u wanna criticise, read my msg twice so u won't make mistakes, and then post ur reply while drinking a cup of coffee (pay attention, maybe there's a fly in it)

servantofallah, I think that u make a bad use of the Quran right here, the ones u're talking about are scholars, they are the only ones allowed to make Al Ijtihade, and they're the 3rd source of Tachri3 after the Quran and Sunnah, they give their opinions when the problem isn't clear on Quran and Sunnah, They're not representing GOD on earth like what the holy verses said (these verses talk about Church's people, who pretend to be the GOD's representants)
Besides, the ones I brought (Al Kardawi ...) are among the best scholars in Islam, and when Muslim people around the world are confused on any issue, and that issue is not on Quran and Sunnah, they asked their opinion.
Pay attention, you're on the wrong way buddy!

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9:36 am    April 9, 2005
Omega
107
102
Check out the link you posted, the so called scientific commission was sponsored by Ben Laden (the Yemeni Burqa designer).
Maybe the board of that commission calls him a scientist too...

You can tell about such a school of thoughts from its sponsors...

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8:36 am    April 9, 2005
servantofallah
106
100
You say she is hurting herself, but you give no evidence for that. What command of Allah (SWT) is she breaking?
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8:33 am    April 9, 2005
servantofallah
105
102
Are we to take the opinions of Sheikh Qardawi and North American Fiqh Committee instead of what Allah (SWT) has sent down to us? Are they our lords besides Allah (SWT)? Nothing in the opinions you linked shows evidence that Allah (SWT) forbid women to lead any prayer. We must not make the mistake of the people of the Book that Allah (SWT) tells us about.

Attakhadh? 'Aĥb?rahum Wa Ruhb?nahum 'Arb?b?an Min D?ni All?hi Wa Al-Mas?ĥa Abna Maryama Wa M? 'Umir? 'Ill? Liya`bud? 'Ilah?an W?ĥid?an L? 'Il?ha 'Ill? Huwa Subĥ?nahu `Amm? Yushrik?na (At-Tawbah: 31).

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8:13 am    April 9, 2005
Omega
104
103
*but it showed me that we, Moroccans, are cha3b 7eggare =) kanchoufou leblade kangoulou hadou ghir 7midate!*

-So your location is Morocco Hasha Sami3in, huh ...?!! I guess you can't hear yourself ...!!

In anycase, you still haven't given a proof that Zendany (who is a scholar in Islam not a scientist ) knows about bacteriology, and that fly story in the hadith is scientifically demonstrated . (I won't argue with the AIDS cure claim, because that would turn the discussion into a salad...::)


You just drifted away and started cutting and pasting links about the Quran that have no relation to the topic which is from Hadith...

If we are talking about the fly, stick with the fly... don't start talking about the Othman Empire, Leonardo Da Vinci, Saif Du Yazan and what have you ...:)

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7:17 am    April 9, 2005
Omega
103
102
You are confusing the religious studies with the micro biolgy .
You need a reset botton ...

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7:02 am    April 9, 2005
Ayur
102
101
I wasn't expecting your questions since you SEEM to have strong knowledge!
I wanna just remind you that in the past, Arabic scientifists used to be theologists, phisicians, mathematicians ...etc in the same time!
as for Zendany, even if he isn't the main topic here, here's a link that can help you know him (If you care) from an english website (in case you don't believe arabic ones)
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Index/Z/zindani.html
nzidek, another website with some of his works:
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Responses/It-is-truth/index.htm
I said some, coz that website needs to be updated, since lately, Zendany said that he, and some researchers from his university, have found the cure for Sida, and that was confirmed by the yemeni health minister! but that wasn't confirmed by foreign researchers (I think they're still trying it)
Thank you for the nice pics of Yemen, it's like some moroccan zones here (Imintanout...) but it showed me that we, moroccans, are cha3b 7eggare =) kanchoufou leblade kangoulou hadou ghir 7midate!
Hope that I answered all your questions, and Sorry Adnane if I'm outta topic!
Advice: If a fly lands in your cup, 3serha she maybe drunk your jus!


servantofallah; nice use of some Quran verses, but mene hadchi kamele
??? ??? ????? ???: ??? ???? ???? : { ??? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ????? } [???? ??????? ??? ???????].

and if you really wanna read about this
here's the Cheikh Kardawi point of view
http://www.islamonline.net/Arabic/contemporary/2005/04/article01A.shtml
here's the North American Fiqh Committee
http://www.islamonline.net/Arabic/contemporary/2005/04/article01B.shtml

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4:06 am    April 9, 2005
Omega
101
88
According to Cheikh Zendani (A famous scientist from yemen), verified that the wings of a fly contains the bug, and the neutralizer!

-Is he a theolog or a scientist ? I hope you can make the difference.
Can you provide a link to his work, or at least to his scientific back ground..?
If you are not able to do that, don't get too emotional and enjoy these relaxing pictures of yemen...

http://www.jorgetutor.com/yemen/sanaa1/sanaa2.htm

Advice: If a fly lands in your sandwich, don't eat it !

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8:16 pm    April 8, 2005
achraf
100
99
its not hurting my submission to Allalh..its hurting herself..and what Allah has comended needs to be done..If I commit a sin, it does not affect Allah not even a micro bite but then am disobeying Allah's commends and unless my sin does not affect anybody else but me, then my brother and sister should be concerened.
Thanks and i want to say one more thing..the topic's introduction is great and may Allah reward who wrote it.
Wa salamo Alaikom
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5:37 pm    April 8, 2005
servantofallah
99
96
ISLAM is submission to Allah (SWT). How is the girl in the pink jacket hurting your submission to Allah (SWT)?
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5:14 pm    April 8, 2005
servantofallah
98
97
My reply got cut. The reason the articles so far are only using emotion with no evidence from Qur'an and Sunnah is because there is no such evidence. The people are responding only from their feelings and desires.
Allah (SWT) never prohibited women from leading any prayer, and there is no prohibition from His messenger either because the messenger was a faithful servant of Allah (SWT) and followed only what Allah (SWT) revealed.

Wa 'Idhā Lam Ta'tihim Bi'āyatin Qālū Lawlā Ajtabaytahā Qul 'Innamā 'Attabi`u Mā Yūĥá 'Ilayya Min Rabbī Hādhā Başā'iru Min Rabbikum Wa Hudan Wa Raĥmatun Liqawmin Yu'uminūna (Al-'A`rāf: 203).

Wa 'Idhā Quri'a Al-Qur'ānu Fāstami`ū Lahu Wa 'Anşitū La`allakum Turĥamūna (Al-'A`rāf: 204).

Let us follow the sunnah of the messenger and listen to what Allah (SWT) has revealed instead of to human emotion.
Wa Lā Taqūlū Limā Taşifu 'Alsinatukumu Al-Kadhiba Hādhā Ĥalālun Wa Hadhā Ĥarāmun Litaftarū `Alá Allāhi Al-Kadhiba 'Inna Al-Ladhīna Yaftarūna `Alá Allāhi Al-Kadhiba Lā Yufliĥūna (An-Naĥl: 116).


·

5:09 pm    April 8, 2005
servantofallah
97
94
>>Every single article I read contained a great deal of emotions and opinions without a concrete fact from "Quran" Or "Sunnah"...
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4:54 pm    April 8, 2005
EllE
96
i had never mentioned equality ...speaking of it
yeah i will ask for equality when i have to, but i woulden't if it will hurt my religion "ISLAM".
something like the girl in the picture with the Louis Vuitton pink jacket.
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1:51 pm    April 8, 2005
lafleure
95
This is awful. looking at a woman practicing her religious rites with not scarf on her hair and with 3quarter sleeve shirt and tight pants. Add to all of this she is standing shoulder to shoulder with men. Can you really concentrate KHOSHOUE in your prayers like that. Does ALLAH accept your way of getting closer to HIM and pay him respet. I am really astonished at all the changes that people ask for. Is it just for the sake of being the Pioneer and register names in the books of history. Do you care about your relationship with ALLAH or I Believe you care more about men. What is the psychological background for all of this. If QURAN did not mention that the Fquih or Imam should be a man, then we should follow Alsnna Sharifa and I am quite positive that The Prophet Mohammed (SAAWS) ever gave this opportunity to any female at that time. So, on what basis do you really change in over 1400 years of existing Shariaa. What is happening is very threatening to our Islam from the inside and the outside. These sisters in Islam do not how to read the Feminist ideologies. Do you think that whatever you read in Michel Foucault or Simone Sartre or other's books do fit in our religion. I think you're so far away from being smart. It is not about how many books you read or for how may writers you read, it is actually about how much did you understand and grasped from those books. ALLAH may YOU show us the right path and forgive our sins. I hope you all read more about Islam and learn from everyday life and match both and whatever you do just repent and ask ALLAH to forgive you. Do not complicate things.
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1:45 pm    April 8, 2005
arabie
94
I couldn't reiterate post 66 any more....Where are the facts quoted from "Quran" and "Sunnah" that will put this case to rest? Until then, everything is 'Ijtihad' and mere point of views and feelings expressed to the public. Every single article I read contained a great deal of emotions and opinions without a concrete fact from "Quran" Or "Sunnah"...however there are some excellent arguments and points raised that we must not over look. The link I provided in post 66 leads to well-argued article refuting women from leading prayers.

This is a gray area that these women are exploiting, and they have a point until some one points out where in "Quran" or "Sunnah" that says otherwise.....

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1:32 pm    April 8, 2005
Nego
93
92
;)
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12:56 pm    April 8, 2005

Adnane Ben. message
92
91
Actually, I knew it was written by a professional journalist. I was hoping Samia would provide reference and give credit when credit is due.
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12:41 pm    April 8, 2005
Nego
91
89
Adnane,

Here the link to that article on post 55 written by by Yasmin Mogahed on(Friday 25 March 2005). I hope you did not think it was Samia who wrote that !!!!

Yasmin Mogahed is an Egyptian-American free-lance writer. She contributed this article to Media Monitors Network (MMN) from Wisconsin, USA.

http://usa.mediamonitors.net/content/view/full/13883/

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11:18 am    April 8, 2005
A.B
90
you gotta be kinding man to post picture and promoting the mixing of genders in the mosque, DUDE STOP SMOKIN THAT SHIT.
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10:22 am    April 8, 2005

Adnane Ben. message
89
I still believe that post 55 is the strongest so far.
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8:48 am    April 8, 2005
Ayur
88
86
(The none sense claim that if a fly drops on your glass, make sure tha both wings touch the liquid because somehow each one of them nutralise the bugs of the other...
Ask a drougri, he will tell you that it is a joke.)
Sorry, u mean drougri the real drougri, or u mean someone with big scientific background?
According to Cheikh Zendani (A famous scientist from Yemen) who made many studies about Al i3jaze in Quran and Sunnah, he verified that it is true, and that the wings of a fly contains the bug, and the neutralizer! I dont think that Cheikh Drougri can say not, unless if he got a labo in his magazine we kayjerreb fe flitox :D
Shiia are known for being radical muslims; they even hate other khoulafaa rachidine, and some of them dont believe that those khoulafa will go to heaven, even if Prophet told em so!!
as for ( I rather see a Muslim sister complaining about that, then see a christian feminist doing that on their behalf.) ewa akhouya, tell them why they dont have the right to be (Pape) in Vatican, and why there have been no woman in this function in history!! wella jmele makaychouf ghir le7debba dyale lloukhrine?
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7:19 am    April 8, 2005
Nego
87
86
For exemple, the claim that Zawaj Al mutaa is ok, while the Quran forbids adultery...
Stoning the adulterer to death(Talmud), while the Quran talks about giving 100 lashes.


**Thank you for your comments. However, i just wanted to clarify something over the above paragraph.
Zawaj almout3ah was adopted by some people because the Prophet(PBUH) okayed it on one of the battles where the men were away from their homes etc. when a man came to the prophet(PBUH) and asked him to give him permission to marry instead of going and commiting Zina, the Prophet(PBUH) said it is ok he can do that BUT RIGHT THEN ALWA7Y CAME DOWN AND IT WAS REVEALED TO HIM THAT THIS IS NOT ACCEPTABLE. IT IS FORBIDDEN TO MARRY JUST FOR THE SAKE OF MOUT3AH. before even that man had the time to leave he was told NO.

One more thing is that Zina is two kinds there is Adultery and fornication,

The first kind is adultery it is when the person is married. The 7add on this is arrajm 7atta almawt YES STONING TO DEATH. But there are very strict conditions on how to go to the point of applying this 7add. Only one rajm happened in the Era of the Prophet(PBUH) the case of ghamedeyah and it was HER who made al2i3tiraf and wanted to be punished so she wont be punished in the akhirah. Only one case and it was by i3tiraf. If there is no i3tiraf, we should not punish anybody unless we have witnesses and they should be 4 witnesses that saw them on action. yes on action.
The other kind of zina is fornication. It is when the person is not married. and it is 100 lashes.

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5:18 am    April 8, 2005
Omega
86
The lady leading the prayer was questioning the Sunna.
that is nothing new, first lets define what Sunna is : It is a compilation of accounts that are supposed to tell how the prophete has led his life.
those accounts are gathered by different scholars, the most famous one for the Sunni Muslims in Imam Bukahri,
Who memorized 300.000 hadiths from which he selected 7275,
and wrote them down in his book called *Sahih* .
http://www.inter-islam.org/Biographies/imambukhari.html


The problem is that Bukhari was not and is not the only scholar, there has been many who disagreed with the validity of certain hadiths gathered by himself .
Bukhari relies on the chain of narration (Sanad) to validate the authenticity of a hadith, but that doesn't seem to be enough if account contradicts the laws and teaching of the Quran.

Many non sense stories put on the prophet's mouth (3ailahi Salam), either by people who were influenced by Pagan, Jewish or Christian traditions, or simply by foes of Islam...and they were many back then, as there are now.

For exemple, the claim that Zawaj Al mutaa is ok, while the Quran forbids adultery...
Stoning the adulterer to death(Talmud), while the Quran talks about giving 100 lashes.

The none sense claim that if a fly drops on your glass, make sure tha both wings touch the liquid because somehow each one of them nutralise the bugs of the other...
Ask a drougri, he will tell you that it is a joke.

Further more, a shia Muslim has his favorite scholars, just like the Sunni has and a Suffi has.
Some follow In kathir, other Al Albani others Al ja3fari, and they don't necessarily agree with eachother. Some of them do even attack eachother.

When a hadith contradicts the common sense or the teaching of the Quran, then it becomes questionable... A prophet does never talk non sense! Ma howa nati9on 3ani Lhawa)

So the ultimate judge remains the holy quran and its content..

Think of the Quran as the Operating System (All rights reserved), and the hadith as an open souce program... A plug in or or something in that range...:)
The sad part is that people is that people skip the most basic principle of the Operating system and focus on the plug-ins !
How many huge liers say Inshallah...? :)

As for the woman leading Salat, everybody knows that it as an out cry and act of rebellion against the injustice inflicted on women by Muslim men, or so called Muslim men...living here on this planet now in this century...!!!

I I rather see a Muslim sister complaining about that, then see a christian feminist doing that on their behalf.


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2:29 pm    April 7, 2005
Outlandish
85
This link will provide you with all the evidance you need to understand the requirments of the Imam.

http://www.al-eman.com/Islamlib/viewchp.asp?BID=231&CID=6

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2:22 pm    April 7, 2005
Outlandish
84
Salam All..
Away from all the arguments that's going on, Islam, being the last religion God gave humans, have covered every single issue and problem man may face in life. Muslims, lived by guidance of Qura'an and Sunnah. then, as the people started to understand them their own way and use the verses and hadiths as they wish, the 4 Great Aimah came to solve that problems and created the 4 schools of islamic fiqh: Hanafi, Maliki, Shafie, and Hanbali. These schools all AGREE on the main teachings of Islam, and there disagreement on other side issues is a bless to the people as these differances ease their life. ?????? ??????? ???? ?????.
Allah SWT have created man and woman in differant forms, differant capacities to preform differant roles in life. That's something people ignore always on purpose. Man has his purpose: work to provide income, secure the house and the family, while woman, is to take care of the house, the children, and her husband. and this was never a problem 'till some punk came with the idea that women must have equal rights with men which is total junk and I'll tell you why: Women and Men are Completing each other, just like the lock and the key, if there's two locks and no keys how will you use them? and if there's two keys and no lock what will you use them for?
About Wadud, she's mistaken from head to toe, that's why she got fired from the international Islamic University Malaysia. and that chick up there, she'd better repeat her prayer 'cause she's not covering her 'Awra. Imamah in Shari'ah is a matter of Qawamah, Responsibility. the verse ?????? ??????? ??? ?????? is not a chain to keep women slaved, but came as a result to the responsibilities men are holding. To conclude all what I said, Imamah, as ALL the Quranic and Hadith evidance reported, and muslim scholars through out history agreed is assigend to men. and if it was otherwise, Mohamed SAW would have madehis wife, Aicha that he asked muslims to learn about Islam from her to become the Imam of All Muslims when he was suffering his death sickness.
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1:43 pm    April 7, 2005
Nego
83
81
When you want to discuss something you should come out of your shell.

Throwing that comment about missing a point without specifying what point makes it a bit low comment.

Maybe that sentence does not make sense to you because you think any one can perform prayers and lead people on a mosque. this is wrong, not anyone can lead the prayers.

Elle,
honnestly do you think that a woman can lead the prayers while her prayers DO NOT COUNT IF THEY ARE LOUD ??? does this make sense to you?? NO SEX OR WHATSOEVER. women's prayers HAVE/MUST/SHOULD be in silence mode- no one argues about this. but when this woman leads the prayers that are supposed to be loud, she will raise her voice. if this makes sense to you. Then i guess the mixed prayers and women leading will make sense to you as well.

DO NOT LIE TO YOUR SELVES. THERE IS NO EQUALITY IN ISLAM BETWEEN MEN AND WOMEN. BUT THERE IS JUSTICE.

ALLAH says : ( Ya ayuhha annass itta9ou rabbakoum alladi khala9akoum min nafssin wa7idatin WAKHALA9A MINHA ZAWJAHA...)

If you read carefully what the Quran says, you will see that we were created from one single person and from that ALLAH created a mate for that person. are we equal? No, BUT we complete each other, one cannot leave without the other, we have to be together so we can complete each other. I am half and my wife is half, the both of us make one person. if i am by my self i am not complete and vice versa.

If we were all equal than why would a man need a woman, or a woman need a man?? if two things are similar and equal than we only need one of them, we dont want duplications.

STOP TALKING ABOUT MOUSSAWAT AND EQUALITY BECAUSE YOU HAVE BETTER THAN THAT. YOU HAVE JUSTICE. WHICH IS MORE THAN EQUALITY. Think about it.

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11:02 am    April 7, 2005
Ayur
82
81
Well, if you start such a discussion "missing point or comma ..." you won't agree on anything!
My advice to solve all these questions, read Samia's post (post 55) and the Arabie's link (post 66). I think they're interesting, and if you find anything wrong or incorrect, just throw it here, and we can discuss it all of us!
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8:57 am    April 7, 2005
EllE
81
Can you please tell me where on earth this theory exist ?: Nego says "who will lead the prayers during those 6 days? another woman? ok how about if she has her period also? another one? iwa wellina kanbi3ou leb6a6a hnaya? lli jat tdire imam? "
Probably, this is the sentence i've missed right?
NONSENSE...

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7:24 am    April 7, 2005
Nego
80
71
I maye have totally missed the point. At the end the point is nothing compared to the line that you have missed entirely.
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6:47 am    April 7, 2005
Ayur
79
In my opinion:
We're talking here about mixed prayer led by a woman:
1st: mixed prayers are not allowed in Islam, since the beginning and according to the Sunnah, as it was posted earlier! so I don't think we can argue about such a thing, it's somehow (kan9elbou 3la jwa menjel)
2nd: I already said that Al Imama in Islam has been given to MEN, gimme one hadith or aya from Quran that said not.
However, a woman can lead a group of women in their prayers also, but no men included!
I don't say that there is no women with enough religious knowledge! I've seen many of them on TV, on some Universities, tbarkellah sometimes their speeches are more interesting than the ones given by some males! I even doubt that Prof "Wadud" has such a knowledge! But they never ever asked for Imamah! Mrs Kahlaoui from Egypt, who is a lecturer in Al Azhar university, said that the women doesn't have the right of
Imamah!
about the Saudi or Khaleiji issues, It's an outta topic, this is a political problem! we're discussing a religious one! if those people doesn't allow women to vote, it's coz they have their own political views, they know that if women vote, then they're gonna loose something! here in Morocco (L7amdou lillah) we don't have such problem, everyone is equal "politically", i agree that there still some people who are against, but they're so few, they're ignored, they're dying in silence! if u talk about'em, u're givin'em a place that they're lookin for! and that's what some magazines who pretend they're liberal "Telquel, ...." do! and they don't know that they're givin a bad image of Morocco outside! even if this image is false!
hada makane!
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7:22 pm    April 6, 2005

Rasta Gnawi message
78
Now now kids.... The children's table is on foxnews.com

omg and arb, chill a little. You've both flexed your muscles long enough. Raise your game a little.

Jah bless

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4:34 pm    April 6, 2005
Omega
77
76
You haven't hit any nerve... you are just swinging in the dark and punching yourself like a Mejdoub in trance . :)
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4:24 pm    April 6, 2005
arabie
76
75
I guess I hit a nerve!!! Nevertheless, you said nothing informative or that supports your argument except for insulting my intelligence ;)
I am satisfied since you have agreed with my point (but I don't think you realized that either). "There are folks in Morocco and out side of it who think like that already" is different from "Let's face it, the muslims are obsessed by sexual thoughts, and they explain everything in a sexual context", so you see how you agreed with my point smart ass :)

I'll give you the Turban joke though..it made me laugh!!!

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4:14 pm    April 6, 2005
Omega
75
74
Nah, you don't sound very intelligent, you just love rumbling with your mouth. :)
Saudi Arabia, Kuwait or Yemen are just samples... There are folks in Morocco and out side of it who think like that already...But I guess it is too tasking for your brain cells to see the connection.

No need to get defensive and start a *Dictee'* session :) if you have a logical argument go ahead of present them. The *if you were a Muslim...* type of indirect takfir and accusations, do not make an argument.
If on the other hand you have nothing interesting to type, shrink back in your Zawia hta yhenllah.

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3:50 pm    April 6, 2005
arabie
74
73
You see you didn't think before you posted your message again.

1. I never called you nonmuslim, and I dare you to show me where I did.

2. I am not a hypocrit since all I asked you to do is not to put ALL muslims in one perverted basket, which you did. In your previous post, you didNOT use words like 'some', 'few', or 'other' to make sure the reader knows that you don't speak about ALL muslims. I never said that the individuals you mentioned do not exist, nevertheless, they represent no one but their views. About Saudis...you should take that concern to a Saudi website, as this is Moroccan website. So I wonder why you would bring up an issue that do not concern us here especially in this discussion. Saudis have their own problems to solve and we all know those problems, and they go deeper than just sex-fixated mentality.

Again think, think, and think before you speak....I mean it this time....

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3:25 pm    April 6, 2005
Omega
73
70
I am not supporting nor even concerned about the prayers led by a woman. I would rather to a different mosque... My issue is with the so called Muslims who impose their cultural traditions, which are basically motivated by sex related fears.
Ask a Saudi scholar why a woman doesnt have the right to vote, and he will bring you arguments ranging from the claim that her voice is 3awra,(the mentality of Marti Hashak...) to the claim that her world is in her home...

Just look re-read the arguments of the scholars in the post 67 and you will see what I am talk about.
And don't act like a hypocrit and claim that these invididuals do not exist.
Their arguments are lime, even if I would agree with what they are trying to convey.

So instead of calling me a non Muslim, step back and reflect for a while instead of acting out of an oral diarrhea .

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2:30 pm    April 6, 2005
EllE
72
To Omega,
Do you really believe, that if we take the "sex" element away, the muslim will have no argument to debate???
ARE YOU SURE?????????
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2:24 pm    April 6, 2005
EllE
71
brother Nego , i think you totally missed the point...
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2:23 pm    April 6, 2005
arabie
70
68
Why do you feel as if you have the right to put all muslims in the one perverted basket?

Are you suggesting that every muslim who posted an opinion opposing this event used sex as an argument?

If you are a muslim and Moroccan, you have obligation to THINK before you bust out with some crap out of your mouth, as you and I don't want any one else to get a wrong impression about muslims. Shouldn't the criticism and humiliation muslims are induring right now be enough, there is no need for a fellow muslim to dipict his brothers as perverts.
Think, Think, Think before you speak!!!!

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2:14 pm    April 6, 2005
Nego
69
68
Away from sex. Let's see if there are other facts that would put hardles on women leading prayers.

If women want to lead prayers then they will have to be imams of mosques, so they will have to lead other prayers , not only joumou3ah, but every single prayer in the mosque- yak bghaw yetssawaw.

*Women's nature makes them miss about 4-6 days due to their periods. This is not sex it is their nature. who will lead the prayers during those 6 days? another woman? ok how about if she has her period also? another one? iwa wellina kanbi3ou leb6a6a hnaya? lli jat tdire imam?

*When this imam gives birth to a kid, how long will she be abscent ? 3 months? who will be the imam in the mosque for these months???

*when a woman will have to wake up at fajr time to go to th mosque open it make the adhan and pray and wait until everyone leaves and close the mosque, achnou radi yeb99a ydire rajelha?? who will take care of her kids?? etc etc....

safi baraka 3leyya mafeyya maykemel.

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1:37 pm    April 6, 2005
Omega
68
67
hahaha, so far that was the most honest and direct message, thanks bro !

Let's face it, the muslims are obsessed by sexual thoughts, and they explain everything in a sexual context... from why a country is collapsing to why muslims are suffering .
Everything boils down to sex, that's how their mind is set .
Take the sex element away, and a hardliner muslim will have no argument to debate anything what so ever .


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8:25 pm    April 4, 2005
M9adda
67
>A woman leads prayers? What's left of Moslem men's dignity?

>On Friday March 18, 2005, something interesting happened. Amina
Wadud, a professor of Islamic studies at Virginia Commonwealth
University, led an Islamic prayer service before a congregation of 100
Moslem men and women at Synod House at the Cathedral of St. John the
Divine in Manhattan. As expected, a few hours later, all hell broke
loose.

>The imam of a London mosque declared the practice against Islam. A
woman should never lead prayers, he elaborated, because during the
menstrual cycle, there is always the possibility of an accident during
the service: if a man happens to glance at the female imam's behind
and spots blood, then the gates of heaven will forever be shut to the
poor chump.

>Thank you, dear imam, for clarifying a few things for me. First of
all, I had no idea women bled from their behind during the menstrual
cycle. I guess that means I was pulled out of my mother's ass. Silly
me... I was completely in the dark.

>Secondly, as an avid ass-looker, I can assure the good imam that in
all my years of looking at women's behinds from all different angles,
I've never spotted blood. Maybe I'm not looking hard enough. Who
knows? Maybe the imam is a better ass-looker than I am! I've never
claimed to be good at anything.

>And by the way, I didn't know there's a shortage of tampons in
London. What's up with that?

>Meanwhile Soad Saleh, who heads the Islamic department of the women's
college at Al-Azhar University in Cairo, said women should not lead
prayers because "the woman's body, even if veiled, stirs desires."

>What can I say? Like many of my Middle Eastern brothers, I have a
lifetime subscription to Play Veil magazine. Miss January was
absolutely gorgeous and even though I couldn't see anything behind her
veil, in some perverted way, she stirred my desires.
>I can't explain it. Only we Middle Eastern men are capable of looking
at women who are covered under lumps of unforgiving black sheets and
feel aroused. Heck, I sometimes look at drapes hanging from windows
and get horny!

>According to Ms. Saleh, we Middle Eastern men are sexually so out of
control that there's a strong chance we might hump a female imam in
the middle of Friday prayers. Thank you Ms. Saleh! Thank you very much
for your in-sight!

>But I think the best line came from the cleric of a mosque in Saudi
Arabia. The honorable sheikh expressed outrage by mentioning several
times, "how can a woman who touches her husband's organ lead a
prayer... it is inconceivable!"

>Obviously the sheikh is unaware that married women do not touch their
husband's organ. As a matter of fact that's the main reason women get
married ... so they don't have to touch, fondle or stroke any part of
a man's body. In fact women are done with sex the day after they get
married. Obviously the sheikh is enjoying an unusually active sex-life
with his wife.

>I feel the anger of my fellow fundamentalist brothers. We're not only
challenged by an intellectual who knows her Islam but, even worse,
we're challenged by a woman. The very fact that a woman is more
intelligent, and makes no apologies for it, insults our very
existence.

>This has nothing to do with Islam; it's about what we've learned from
our fathers and grandfathers. This is about money and power -- the
very essence of our manhood. This is not about menstrual cycles,
stirring desires or fondling organs. It's about fear and insecurity.
Nothing is more intimidating to a man than a woman who sees right
through him.
>Personally, as an Iranian Moslem man, it would be a privilege and
honor to stand behind a female imam and pray to my God. I promise I'll
never glance at her behind -- unless, of course, God has blessed her
with one that is too divine to ignore.
·

7:14 pm    April 4, 2005
arabie
66
Ok, here is an interesting attempt to reject women leading prayers.
http://www.studying-islam.org/articletext.aspx?id=951

There are several convincing points where I've found myself in accordance with, nevertheless, there are NO direct quotes from "Quran" or "7adith" that will put this case to rest.

The author's arguments still stand strong as this is just one side who "jtahed" in the matter. I wonder what 'Roukn Al-Moufti" would say about this. May be we should send them letter :)

·

10:35 am    April 4, 2005
EllE
65
The titles says it all!!! Catch the insane action of the hotest woman, they uncover their head, lead prayers .Real muslimat getting wild on the mosque.
VHS or DVD only $9.99
FREE with America UNCOVERED!

"la yehdi ma khle9"
·

10:33 am    April 4, 2005
arabie
64
All that's been said is well noted and good to hear. Your FEELINGS about this matter was well articulated and well taken. Now, where are the quotes from "Quran" or "7adith" that porhibit women from leading a prayer mixed witn men and women, point blank!

P.S., please remember that I am not FOR nor AGAINST what these women did just yet. I simply don't have enough knowledge about what the RULES (shari3a or sunnah) dictate regarding this situation.

·

12:56 pm    April 3, 2005
Maghribiya
63
If the rules of Quran were applied as it should be, Muslim societies would be the number one, everybody would be happy and in peace, and we wouldnt have to worry about what we need to do or change, because everything is clear, but this is not happening!

P.S: Who is "Asra" to try to change the teachings of Islam? praying with no scarf, that's ridiculous in itself! and who said our religion needs an update?? Quran is for all the times, and all the places..Sale7 likoli zaman wa likoli makan.

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11:40 am    April 3, 2005
Tchiko
62
60
I have never been proud to be Muslim and Moroccan as I am at this period of my life.

God was and is my source of energy every day. Trying hard to be with him, sometimes it happens that I do silly mistakes, but once I realize I back up and ask for forgiveness.


As far I know, I do not think I wrote anything to mislead people about Islam. I may have mentioned society, which means for me Morocco past, and present, sometimes families that I know personally. Again, as I already mentioned I am coming from traditional Moroccan family. Sometimes I consider myself more traditional that other Moroccan women, and I am very proud the way that I am, and the values I required either from religion or the way that my parents raised me.

I do not think Islam has ever asked us not to think, or banned questions.

I am out!

·

10:36 am    April 3, 2005

Adnane Ben. message
61
55
I had to read your post again, it is so eye-opening! It offers that dose of balance and wisdom, and complements my Sunday morning coffee well.
·

10:26 am    April 3, 2005

Adnane Ben. message
60
59
Tchiko, you give the impression that the muslim woman today is not given the choice to go study or work.. this is a misleading statement, an American reading your post will probably believe you if he/she doesn't know better. Islam or the cool ol' people of Morocco have not taken this choice from the woman come on. I just don't like Islam to be mis-represented like that. Probably America used not to allow women to be professors, or study some selected majors, and until early or mid 20th century - forgot exactly when - that women's right movement fought to give women their academic rights. In Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Baghdad, Granada, Andalucia, women were free to join men in colleges, and if they choose become teachers, nurses, doctors, or what have you.

For the women who didn't study, for the most part they were probably excercising "the choice" to help the little familly more, or got married young, had children, didn't have the time to spend on studying, and realized they choose to take care of the familly - while the husband is outthere fighting the days and nights of Morocco. Wen he is tired and confused, his wife comforts him, gives him advice, when he's short on money she helps with the economy of the familly, or helps pull some strings, or work here and there. Sometimes it takes one female role model in the familly or rass derb to change the future of that familly's siblings for a long time. If the grandmother, mother, aunts, sisters, neighboors didn't study, the young girl will not have someone to look up to.

I encourage leading by example, and tbarkellah 3la the women who made it to school and work, but please don't forget that Islam owes you some credit as opposed to bashing. The small credit you give to islam and God for your achievements is better for you, gets recorded, and helps the image of Islam especially these days.

·

9:54 am    April 3, 2005
Tchiko
59
55
I do like every single word you have said, and I do agree with you mind and heart.

Indeed, I would like to add something concerning women who work outside, and who also would rather stay home to take a good care of their children. In fact my own mother is one those women.

It never hurts to have a choice, and that what is different today. Woman now has to the choice either to go to work, if she has to or if she wants to.

If she has to because of financial reasons, a mortgage to pay for example, or at worst scenarios her husband just died, and now she is a single parent and has to support her family, her own children, she know she can do it, because she gets tools for it.

If she wants to, fine that will also help her building a stronger personality ensuring that will educate her children properly, teaching them a better sense of life value.

?But at least give her a choice, and let her decide for herself.


·

1:42 am    April 3, 2005

fender (full stop) message
58
can the next pope be a woman?
·

7:47 pm    April 2, 2005

Adnane Ben. message
57
55
is saying.. things I never thought of them that way! thanks
·

6:46 pm    April 2, 2005
Ayur
56
55
wa3alayki salam wa ra7matou LLAHi wa barakatouh!
I completely agree with Samia, that joins the "Balance" idea posted by Muslima!
What I liked the most, is that comparaison between "raising the foundation of society, a human being" and "working on a machine"! That doesn't mean I'm against women at work!
·

6:29 pm    April 2, 2005
samia
55

"Given my privilege as a woman, I only degrade myself by trying to be
something I'm not--and in all honesty--don't want to be: a man. As women, we
will never reach true liberation until we stop trying to mimic men, and
value the beauty in our own God-given distinctiveness."


On March 18, 2005 Amina Wadud led the first female-led Jumuah (Friday)
prayer. On that day women took a huge step towards being more like men. But,
did we come closer to actualizing our God-given liberation?

I don't think so.

What we so often forget is that God has honored the woman by giving her
value in relation to God-not in relation to men. But as western feminism
erases God from the scene, there is no standard left-but men. As a result
the western feminist is forced to find her value in relation to a man. And
in so doing she has accepted a faulty assumption. She has accepted that man
is the standard, and thus a woman can never be a full human being until she
becomes just like a man-the standard.

When a man cut his hair short, she wanted to cut her hair short. When a
man joined the army, she wanted to join the army. She wanted these things
for no other reason than because the "standard" had it.

What she didn't recognize was that God dignifies both men and women in
their distinctiveness--not their sameness. And on March 18, Muslim women
made the very same mistake.

For 1400 years there has been a consensus of the scholars that men are to
lead prayer. As a Muslim woman, why does this matter? The one who leads
prayer is not spiritually superior in any way. Something is not better just
because a man does it. And leading prayer is not better, just because it's
leading. Had it been the role of women or had it been more divine, why
wouldn't the Prophet have asked Fatima-the greatest women of all time-to lead? or khadijah? or ummu salama? zaineb? or his other noble wives? These women were promised heaven-and yet they
never lead prayer.

But now for the first time in 1400 years, we look at a man leading prayer
and we think, "That's not fair." We think so although God has given no
special privilege to the one who leads. The imam is no higher in the eyes of
God than the one who prays behind.

On the other hand, only a woman can be a mother. And God has given special
privilege to a mother. The Prophet taught us that heaven lies at the feet of
mothers. But no matter what a man does he can never be a mother. So why is
that not unfair?

When asked who is most deserving of our kind treatment? The Prophet
replied 'your mother' three times before saying 'your father' only once. Isn
't that sexist? No matter what a man does he will never be able to have the
status of a mother.

And yet even when God honors us with something uniquely feminine, we are
too busy trying to find our worth in reference to men, to value it-or even
notice. We too have accepted men as the standard; so anything uniquely
feminine is, by definition, inferior. Being sensitive is an insult, becoming
a mother-a degradation. In the battle between stoic rationality (considered
masculine) and self-less compassion (considered feminine), rationality
reigns supreme.

As soon as we accept that everything a man has and does is better, all
that follows is just a knee jerk reaction: if men have it-we want it too. If
men pray in the front rows, we assume this is better, so we want to pray in
the front rows too. If men lead prayer, we assume the imam is closer to God,
so we want to lead prayer too. Somewhere along the line we've accepted the
notion that having a position of worldly leadership is some indication of
one's position with God.

A Muslim woman does not need to degrade herself in this way. She has God
as a standard. She has God to give her value; she doesn't need a man.

In fact, in our crusade to follow men, we, as women, never even stopped to
examine the possibility that what we have is better for us. In some cases we
even gave up what was higher only to be like men.

Fifty years ago, society told us that men were superior because they left
the home to work in factories. We were mothers. And yet, we were told that
it was women's liberation to abandon the raising of another human being in
order to work on a machine. We accepted that working in a factory was
superior to raising the foundation of society-just because a man did it.

Then after working, we were expected to be superhuman-the perfect mother,
the perfect wife, the perfect homemaker-and have the perfect career. And
while there is nothing wrong, by definition, with a woman having a career,
we soon came to realize what we had sacrificed by blindly mimicking men. We
watched as our children became strangers and soon recognized the privilege
we'd given up.

And so only now-given the choice-women in the West are choosing to stay
home to raise their children. According to the United States Department of
Agriculture, only 31 percent of mothers with babies, and 18 percent of
mothers with two or more children, are working full-time. And of those
working mothers, a survey conducted by Parenting Magazine in 2000, found
that 93% of them say they would rather be home with their kids, but are
compelled to work due to 'financial obligations'. These 'obligations' are
imposed on women by the gender sameness of the modern West, and removed from
women by the gender distinctiveness of Islam.

It took women in the West almost a century of experimentation to realize a
privilege given to Muslim women 1400 years ago.

Given my privilege as a woman, I only degrade myself by trying to be
something I'm not--and in all honesty--don't want to be: a man. As women, we
will never reach true liberation until we stop trying to mimic men, and
value the beauty in our own God-given distinctiveness.

If given a choice between stoic justice and compassion, I choose
compassion. And if given a choice between worldly leadership and heaven at
my feet-I choose heaven.

wassalaam alaykum

·

4:12 pm    April 2, 2005
Ayur
54
52
Wellah, sometimes I regret that I didn't keep an archive for my school's papers. We had some great profs who gave us interesting subjects!
·

4:06 pm    April 2, 2005

Aziz Bezza message
53
46
just imagine for instance, in some very remote little corner of the world, a small tribe in which menbers happily live. Like every small community of the world however, they set rules, regulations and norms to follow, and similarly to major societies some of these norms are strictly inforced and others lightly sanctioned.Our little tribe has successful members as well as members who fell short either because they lag behind the fittests, or because they were fastened to some stigmas coming from previous revelations.Behold my freinds and imagine...
Some of these revelations included " Blessed be the faithful, Oh you fellow tribemen, mute and stone all negotiators who in my holly name lamely argue"
Can you imagine how many negotiators in this small society will continue, no matter what, argue in the name of their Revelation.Still, no blame, their inappropriate behavior stems, and profoundly, from some unbroken norms mentioned earlier.
THE END
·

2:42 pm    April 2, 2005

Adnane Ben. message
52
51
wellit Sheikh lhouma ana? don't forget to galizziha fel mouqata3a
·

9:53 am    April 2, 2005
Ayur
51
I'll look for the paper sheet and send it to Adnane :)
·

8:47 am    April 2, 2005
Tchiko
50
49
OK then, would you please post that the paper or even an abstarct?

Thanks!.

P.S: You probably want to check with Adnane first about the proper place for that paper, meaning either under this discussion, or even having its own discussion page.

·

8:25 am    April 2, 2005
Ayur
49
48
The fact that we found'em few, is that we don't look in our muslim history!
I remember when i was in lyc?e, we had a french professor who asked us to write a paper about women is Islam. I found out that Women had a lightened history than men!
I don't remember all the women names, but I still remember some of'em:
-Soukayna bint Al hoceine, Bint Ali (radiya llahou 3anhom) in litterature, sciences, and epistymology!
-Cheikha Chahda (called Fakhr Nissa) who was a lecturer in Jame3 Baghdad in the 5th century (hijri)!
-The indalussian poet "Wallada" who wrote some perfect poems!
....etc
I found many names, I wrote around 20 pages and I tried to resume it as much as i can! I'll try to find this paper and post it here!
For further information about those great women, try to check books in King Abdullah library in Casablanca (Ain-Diab)
·

7:49 am    April 2, 2005
Tchiko
48
37
There is no question that there were smart women in the past. Nevertheless, few of them got to be distinguished from a typical traditional woman mother, or slave, dancer.... etc..

Besides that, I think we all agree on that fact the woman central attention has changed over the time. Before, her circle mainly consist of getting married, having children, taking care of the kids, house, and making the husband happy, period and nothing more.

Nowadays, yes we do still care about these things, speaking about myself and few women I know, but we expanded our circle of attention to other areas, such as education, profession etc..

Also, the society perception to women has changed significantly over time, to favor the change and help the woman to be what she is now.

·

12:37 am    April 2, 2005
Nego
47
40
I don't believe it was a typo. He just repeated what she said on her khutbah.

Pray today together burn tomorrow in hell together..

These women do not know about the Hadith that says ( man sanna sunnattan saye2atan fa3alyhi wizrouha wa wizrou man 3amila biha ila yawmi al9iyamah) Amina daoued started it, and now a lot of other women wants to do the same thing so they can be famous. Another Moroccan woman in Italy is trying to do the same thing, her name is Naima ...

They will all stand before ALLAH one day and see what they can say.

·

12:37 am    April 2, 2005
Nego
46
40
I don't believe it was a typo. He just repeated what she said on her khutbah.

Pray today together burn tomorrow in hell together..

These women do not know about the Hadith that says ( man sanna sunnattan saye2atan fa3alyhi wizrouha wa wizrou man 3amila biha ila yawmi al9iyamah) Amina daoued started it, and now a lot of other women wants to do the same thing so they can be famous. Another Moroccan woman in Italy is trying to do the same thing, her name is Naima ...

They will all stand before ALLAH one day and see what they can say.

·

11:54 pm    April 1, 2005

Adnane Ben. message
45
How come this guy is entertaining me today in an interesting way..? http://drmaxtor.blogspot.com/2005/03/whats-next-drwadud.html
·

11:47 pm    April 1, 2005

Adnane Ben. message
44
It seems to me that these women have picked up along their life somehow an inferiority feeling when it comes to Islam.. who made them feel this way? is it their school? male friends? boyfriends? husbands? teachers? neighboors? society? I think instead of attacking these women, one ought to help them heal from this inferiority feeling. Someone earlier in this discussion spoke that the beauty of Islam is it provides Balance between men and women, and not necessarily Equality. I liked that. That should be a startng point. If the root problems are not solved, more women will be feeling inferior, and people will find themselves attacking mosques when men and women pray mixed, and what a waste that would be!..
·

11:22 pm    April 1, 2005

Adnane Ben. message
43
I am in no position to judge Ms. Asra Nomani credentials, history, single unmarried mom, etc.. stuff has always happened to each one of us at some point in our life, and we may have repented, plan to repent, or do something about it to move on. One of those things that become between us and God. But at any rate, It seems Asra, exposed to several culture shocks, living in growing up in India, attending college in America, performing hajj, suddenly gets the sentimental burst of liberating women in islam, and what better place to start than the nearest mosque in town (West Virginia). I've heard complaints before about some mosques and how they manage the women space.. again, those specific mosque management should be corrected first, before considering correcting the prayer behaviour and sunnah. I know the mosque in Boston has a comfortable ladies space, men and women share the door entrance, there are activties for women, and activities for both men and women mixed - I think what they call Halaqa or bayan

Anyways, not to attack Asra or anything but i found this silly "imaginary" interview with Asra sarcastic and devious in nature, but may hold some truth in it... i had a few smiles here and there, and again I am in no popsition to judge Asra, she seems a great asset for women's rights and concerns.. I'm sure she'll be a conveyor of good change for Muslim women in many other areas, but it's just this prayer thing is still vague to many of us... Moreover what is not helping Asra and her followers is that they're perceived as changing forces from within the west - it could have been perceived differenelt probably if this movement stemmed from within a Muslim country.. besides, Asra seems to be associated with a liberal background, and it doesn't help her much in getting buy-in for her new ideas... no? guess we'll have to wait and see.. alright, sorry I'm referencing such silly material, i cut the slack, here is the interview http://drmaxtor.blogspot.com/2005/03/honest-interviews-asra-nomani.html

·

10:48 pm    April 1, 2005

Adnane Ben. message
42
2/1/2004 Woman fights for gender equality in West Virginia mosque http://www.rantburg.com/default.asp?D=2/1/2004&C=Home%20Front#25421

7/26/2004 Mosque moves forward with effort to ban Morgantown woman http://www.rantburg.com/default.asp?D=7/26/2004&C=Home Front: Culture Wars#39050

3/25/2005 Another woman leading Friday prayers in US http://www.rantburg.com/default.asp?D=3/25/2005&C=Home Front: Culture Wars#59772

·

10:42 pm    April 1, 2005

Adnane Ben. message
41
another reading material >> http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week811/cover.html
·

10:29 pm    April 1, 2005

Adnane Ben. message
40
38
him/her...? Aziz, maybe this was a typo?
·

8:32 pm    April 1, 2005
slimane
39
Aziz
awadi maramou ?
·

5:15 pm    April 1, 2005

Aziz Bezza message
38
hello all,
the woman in the pink is Asra Nomani a True and strong american Muslim (originaly from India). Her Book "Standing alone in Mecca" is both inspiring and marvelous. She played a huge role in breaking the traditional and baseless mores of leaving muslim women behind, for her being the master mind behind this accomplishment. I couldn't help sending an e-mail of congratulation to her organization last sunday when i read about this event in the News paper, for the basic idea of chalanging the relgious authority. every religion in the world has given up some of its old teachings to suit evolving demands of cultures, so why not us? after all this new idea won't harm god. if anything it's up to him/her to judge this new, but sincere worshiping behavior.
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5:11 pm    April 1, 2005
Ayur
37
35
Tchiko, What u mean by woman of old days have nothing to do with women now? I mean malhom? Women are women, in the past there were female poets, autors and "commer?antes". in every field there were some women.
Aisha (radiya llahou 3anha) used to give lessons about the religion!
Rasta Garcia, I just wanna share this pic with u. but i don't think this is an insult to men, since most of'em are like that kind. look in people in Morocco, once they see a girl on the street; they start their silly habits!
·

5:00 pm    April 1, 2005

Adnane Ben. message
36
35
if you haven't read it already http://www.islamonline.net/fatwaapplication/english/display.asp?hFatwaID=122868
·

4:46 pm    April 1, 2005
Tchiko
35
28
Most of the time, Prohet had to go a lot of trouble to deliver God 's message.

I beleive men are more qualified physically and emotionally for this task. That s my guess. Please note that women old days had nothing to do with woman now. That is my personal speculation.

·

4:31 pm    April 1, 2005
smiyti
34
a2lamate assa3a
·

12:06 pm    April 1, 2005

Rasta Gnawi message
33
Man, I make an effort to sleep on the right side all the time, but I always wake up sleeping on my back, and sometimes on my belly. My subconscious needs more training.

The picture is an isult to men. Are you kidding me?! You mean to tell me that the mere sight of a woman is enough to throw you off balance. Come on. Give us men more credit than that. It takes a lot more than a woman's figure or voice to distract us.

And don't women get distracted by watching us men pray. I mean, the sight of man from behind can be quite appealing to a lot of women. Ok, now I am just funning, but some questions have to be reciprocated.

Allah bless.

·

10:01 am    April 1, 2005
Lila
32
Thank's Ayur for the picture, it explains it ALL...
·

7:06 am    April 1, 2005
Nego
31
Allah said : (Wa makhala9tou aljinna wal2inssa illa liya3boudoun)
Allah said that he created for only and the only reason to worship him. So in order to worship him, we should sustain from what he forbids and do what he asks us to do. all our doing in this life is a 3ibadah, in every thing we do in life we are worshiping ALLAH, BUT to be really worshiping ALLAH we have to do everything his way. Even going to the restroom we have to follow certain rules, or making love to your mate, etc.

Saying all that does not mean that there is no scientific explanation to what we do. for example why not eating porc? you can read now about it and see what the scientists have discivered regarding this, very important stuff. Why do we sleep on our right side instead of on our belly or the left side or back? this is a sunnah, but now we know that sleeping on the right side is the best situation for us, because it works better for our organs structure. even the moves we do in prayers etc. there is more to it than just the traditional things we know.

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4:15 am    April 1, 2005
Ayur
30
sorry
http://ayur1.free.fr/wi.gif for the picture!
·

4:14 am    April 1, 2005
Ayur
29
Here's a picture from "Al Bidawi" weekly newspaper in Morocco! No comments

·

6:58 pm    March 31, 2005

Adnane Ben. message
28
I am suprised no woman has so far asked the question: "why God never sent his message through a woman messenger?".. well with the exception of Meryem, who was not really the prophet herself, but gave birth to the prophet.

In prophethood being reserved for men throughout history of Islam since Ibrahim, it tells us something probably about the Imamhood of men.

Again, don't you get me wrong, I am not trying to defend Imamhood against women and offend them.. just throwing some ideas around.

·

6:18 pm    March 31, 2005
Tchiko
27
I will sustain from replying to your comments at least for now. I need to get some homework done :), but I will mention a few points before I quit for now.

The first time I have been asked my opinion about this matter, being a Muslim woman, I was kind of against, because simply of " Fittna" issue and women rows must always follow men rows in mosques. Afterwards when I read couple of comments on raioo site, I kind of let mind lead my thoughts, and asked couple of questions only in the purpose to understand.

Coming from a traditional family, we still separate men from women in traditional gathering (eid day) simply because women sometimes need to dance**our traditional dance**, even if we are not in Morocco any more, that s one thing. On the other hand, being somehow **a scientist woman** I would like to understand the driving force, the reasons behinds some non-allowed things in our religion, such as not eating pork, as you already mention, not getting married to non-Muslim guy...not leading prayer in mosques, especially religion dictates many things in our lives, style is one of them.

·

12:13 am    March 31, 2005

Adnane Ben. message
26
25
I personnaly prefer to be safe when it comes to praying in a mosque with men and women and go to a mosque that performs it the way it was done in the mosques before since Prophet Mohammed time. As to trying to find out Why exactly it was done that way, it takes a good knowledge of Fiqh and convincing scholar to tell us. It's the same process you'd follow regarding the question of Why we do not eat pork. There is no problem in trying to find out, but in the meantime I prefer not to eat pork.

I can see that the arguments a woman will distract the attention of men, perfume, looks, voice etc.. will offend women nowadays.. probably because we live in a different time.. I believe that before, women knew why they shouldn't mingle with men in prayer.. it was their lifestyle, the one encouraged and maybe even prescribed by God and the prophet in order to reastablish new familly and social order. People were in the mode of "follow what the prophet says and does".

We see some of that still preserved today. Many famillies back home when it comes to social events, 3radi, sadaqat, men are in one dinner room, and women are in another, if the invited are not very close to each other. If the number of invited are small and close to each other, you see both men and women at the dinner table.

But at any rate, prayer in the mosque is nothing like dinner parties, and if anything its procedures and intentions should be extracted from the way of the prophet, otherwise Muslims will once again diverge and create new sects who knows where they could lead.. Only if the diversion happens to lead back to the proper lifestyle - and it takes genuis minds to detect a bug in the system of Fiqh as known today and it takes guts and ingenuity to correct it... if these women happen to have detected such a bug, then Bravo and I can't wait to see what the end result correction is, for indeed I would be following a good Ijtihad.

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8:00 pm    March 30, 2005
Tchiko
25
"Si Adnane , when we are in "Salat" we are obligated to avoide anything can take our minds out" ??? = ???" FITNA"

I think this is a balanced equation, no? I just wanted to point this out....but still... I can not see the argument that you just made !! ???

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12:28 pm    March 30, 2005
maghrebi dima
24
Si Adnane , when we are in "Salat" we are obligated to avoide anything can take our minds out , in " prayer" we are not like in classroom or street ...

also, Women are not obligated to go to mosque, ., if they pray in their house is better for them , so that we can avoide " FITNA" ...

I ask the question againm: are those women love Allah? if so , why they don't follow islamic rules? Do they know more than Allah , and his Prophet... or just to say we are " Free" ..

there is no one " FREE" in this world , even to be " 3abd" li Allah , or " 3abd" li " hawaka" wa li "achaytan" !!

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6:30 pm    March 29, 2005

Adnane Ben. message
23
22
Tchiko - I see what you're saying. I suggest you take a look at message 9 from Anis, and read through that link.. the text explains a bunch of things and might answer a lot of your questions.
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4:15 pm    March 29, 2005
Tchiko
22
I did not have the time to go throughly what was posted, but the main dea that I got is that women voice or just the fact that she is standing in front of men (who can not hold themeselves) is itself a deviation from a better spiritual sphere.


Well let me ask another stupid question: I assume that all of us, or aleast most of us get the chance to get higher education meaning, you went to college at somepoint, attended lectures, or seminars.

Does the fact of having a women lecturer disturb the audience from enjoying the seminar, and getting something out of it, I am talking here about the scientific package or whatever package is that, does her voice holds you back from getting the information to your mind and satisfying your curiosity, and your eager and love to science/..?


If yes. I guess you will be choosing your conferences, and classes depending on the presenter/professor sex, and depriving yourself from somebody's ideas/knowldge.

If no. Then you are expanding your mind to another great person knowldge, ofcourse olny if you can discipline yourself and look at your professor, mentor in a respectfull way, which is again only you are able to do it!!. So if you can do this,**listen to a woman professor**, to satisfy your eager to knowldge, can not you do it to to pray?

The issue of a perfume, I guess the women anyhow is not supposed to wear perfume when she is planning to go to the mosque, same story goes for Ramadan. Besides that, I beleive that the women still has to wear alhijab when she is ready to stand and pray for Allah.


Now, let s just ask again another question. What if the women has a deep patience to be with allah to study his book and help others to know him more and in a better way, to spread his words, what if she is able to be good at that.

Should we deprive her from that just because she is a woman?

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12:07 pm    March 29, 2005
Lila
21
As a strong woman , i always wanted to secure my rights and opportunities for woman equal as those for man...But when you see woman trying to mix Feminism and islam by leading payers and uncovering their heads while praying , that's a big corruption , such immoral and depraved acts will lead this beautiful religion to a big loss and wickedness.
why change the rules that we grow up with, that our ancestors commit to , and most of all rules that god laid for us to follow .
QUIT corrupting islam , and god bless !
(next thing you know , woman praying with mini skirts...)
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9:31 am    March 29, 2005
arabie
20
17
Muslima,
I think you misunderstood what I said below. If you read my comment carefully, you'll see that I didn't call anyone Atheist. I was referring to some women who never practice or have any knowledge about Islam yet find the audacity to criticize it and compare Muslim women to Christian women.
You see! I described to these women's life style as of an Atheist's one since they go about their lives for years without any spiritual connection or knowledge.

Other than that, I respect what your opinion regarding this issue, and I agree with it to a great extent.

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8:26 am    March 29, 2005

Rasta Gnawi message
19
Salaam everyone,
I don't believe we should characterize this event as ridiculous, outrageous, or anything else that belittles it. It is the logical outcome of Islam attracting diverse peoples and cultures. And if it is to continue to do so, muslims around the world will have to find a convincing way to deal with these questions. A woman felt the need to lead others in prayer. "People of knowledge" should evaluate her request on its own merit. People of knowledge are not laymen such as ourselves, but people who have devoted their life to the study of Shari3a and can provide a well argumented and fulfilling answer.
Islam is not the religion of stagnation. It welcomes change so long as it does not contradict its fundamental tennets.
Whether her action were well intentioned or not is not the issue. The issue is how we can use this to improve our understanding of our religion. I appreciate the link that Anis sent yesterday. It made an interesting distinction between Salat and Du3aa. I haben't thought of the two in those terms before. So I learned something new; and I can't wait to learn more new things out of this debate.
Allah bless all.
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6:59 am    March 29, 2005
Nego
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14
Salam,

The prophet(PBUH) said that the best prayer for a man is in the mosque and the best line is the first line behind the imam. He also said that the best prayer for women is in their Homes,however, the best line in a mosque for women is the last line and the worst is the first line. Now that is something clear that women are better off praying at home, BUT if they do go to the mosque( notice here ALLAH did not prevent them from going to mosques) the best line is the last one. The prophet(PBUH) in his entire life did not allow any woman to lead mixed prayers- does Amina think he did not think of that? if she thinks so then she is mistaken, because he allowed only woman ( oumm wara9ah) to lead a prayer at her house with some men as well that were her ma7arim( NOT STRANGERS). this example is what Amina used to argue her act. she said that if this woman prayed that means the prophet(PBUH) allowed her and all other women to do so. what she did not mention is that the prophet(PBUH) had a man to make the adaan for her-why? so other men outside her house wouldn't hear the adhan by a woman's voice. if adhan is not permitted do you think prayers outloud would be permitted?

Adnane,
Veil did not just become a choice, it was a choice from earlier. But it is a choice of the person who would wear it. not a choice in Islam, because in islam it is a fard.

We cannot add any thing to the adab of prayers because our prophet(PBUH) said ( sallu kama ra2aytoumouni oussalli) pray as you saw me pray. He did not say pray as you wish, or pray as confortable as you should be.

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12:52 am    March 29, 2005
Muslima
17
Bism Illa Al Rahman Al Raheem

Ok..Ok....hold on....

This is in response to Arabi...you said that we must be objective and free from emotion/passion...any yet you (by far) did not.
Now don't get me wrong. I think that a Muslim's relaitonship with Islam should be vibrant with passion. And as I mentioned earlier, I do not in any way, shape, or form condone what happened in Manhattan....

However, I do not think that anyone has the right to say the things you said about those people involved.

Non-believers? Athiest? No one knows what's in their hearts except Allah....

Don't curse them because they lack knowledge. But educate them and make Duaa' for Allah SWT to guide them...

...and may he guide us all along the right path. Ameen :)

Salam Alaikom

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8:32 pm    March 28, 2005
3aber sabeel
16
what's next ? praying naked maybe?

I think what happened in Manhattan New York is rediculious and it was programmed to happen to offend Islam and muslims, since when woman can pray without a scarf covering her hair? now they're not only doing that, this woman is giving AL ADAN with a nice hair cut, and another woman with a nice makeup in the front row pretending praying..

to the true muslim woman do not let this confuse you and have faith on allah not on human being, allah is giving more than what that woman or any other hypocrit can give you.
LA ILAH ILLA ALLAH MOHAMMAD RASSOULO ALLAH.

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3:03 pm    March 28, 2005
arabie
15
This is indeed a challenging subject. We have to remember to put our emotions and pride aside and think about things in the most objective way possible. At first, this news just appalled me and made me scoff at this ?ridiculous? attempt. To my view of this event, it looked like a group of people affected by the 'western version of freedom' virus trying to spread this virus with the most desperate measure. For example, I have heard Muslims women envying Christian women for being able to sit side by side next their male companions and repeat verses from the bible on a Sunday service. What these so called Muslim women don't realize is that they themselves have nothing to compare since they don?t even practice Islam as a religion, they have no knowledge nor they want to acquire any about Islam. They live their lives just like atheists belonging to no religion, now, there is nothing wrong with that; but once they start criticizing based on pure ignorance, it could be very frustrating. If any of these women gave an effort to read about Islam a just little bit, they would realize that Islam is the first religion that gave women any rights while Christian women lived under the shadows of oppression. Christians today live by what the civil law entails and not by what their religion says, this is a very important distinction that we all ought to make. Islam is a religion that gives us the freedom of discussion and research, there is no mediator between a Muslim and the All Mighty. Islam is one religion, we the people shape and direct that religion by imposing our perspectives on it; just like the Islam in Saudia Arabia versus the one in Morocco. We have to be extra careful about our interpretations as we do not want to reach the extremism on either side, e.g., Slafia Jihadia or or something tooooo liberal (Tel-quel for example :) )
Nevertheless, I am with Adnane as not to make an early judgment since we simply do not know accurately what "Shari3a" and "Sunnah" say about this matter. According to the article Anis provided below, there shouldn't be any problem with a woman leading a prayer. It only sounds offensive because it is new, and by human nature we always refuse and oppose anything new (historically proven). For this very reason, I say along with posting how you feel about this matter, please post proofs and quotes from Al-Quran or AL-Sunnah that rejects this act.

As of my position on this issue, I just don't have enough knowledge to make a judgment.

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1:39 pm    March 28, 2005

Adnane Ben. message
14
12
Very good points - as for my comment about the veil. I was merely saying that if these women don't wear the veil outside of prayer then their reasoning can easily lead them to think why should they all of a sudden wear the veil for those 4-5 minutes of prayer. I was just putting my shoes in theirs and figuring out their train of thought. The veil has become a choice these days whether we like that or not.. it's clear everywhere in our countries, and with tme it seems people have accepted the non-veiled attire. You see, women who wear the veil outside of their homes don't of course have to wear it inside of their homes; however when they want to prayer inside their home, you see them putting on the veil.

As Rasta said before, the form of prayer space arrangement between men and women, veil, etc, are rules within the realm of Adab of prayer - sort of the equivalent of our Moroccan "Swab".. the Swab of the prayer. if this Swab and Adab is clearly specified by Sunnah or Quran, then we ought to follow that. Otherwise, we have to specify the best set of rules to solve this new question and add it to the Adab of prayer.

Apparently, people do get offended, couples break up, friends get mad at each other, if rules of Adab and Swab are broken.. you see it in every day life.

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1:29 pm    March 28, 2005

Adnane Ben. message
13
4
Very good questions. 1, I go to mosque for several reasons, some of which are to get the reward for group prayer (which I think is Fard on men if they can do it) - I also go to connect with people, meet new faces and chat - i also go overall to sollicit a calm and serene environment to purify myself -- it's a little like praying in the middle of the nght at home..

For 2, it's true, sometimes i prefer to go to a specific mosque more than another. I guess my reasons are a little similar to yours - better spiritual atmosphere, better lighting, or less lighting, better rugs, -- but mostly I go to different mosques and not stick to one for a change -- it is also preferred that one picks a mosque that is farther than a mosque closer to you.. in reason of course.. you may get more reward that way (za3ma you took the time to go all the way there..)

as for 3, I guess I have no problem attending a woman's speech in a spiritual context, but like all of us are discussing, if the spiritual context is The friday prayer, and the prayer itself, then ijtihad is needed because I've never heard this happened before this month - I don't know the answer. I however, feel that at least, at least men are grouped on right or left, and women grouped on the other side, some sort of non-offending seperation. Why? I think that as much as I will try to control myself from looking consistently at a young girl next to me, in front of me or a few rows ahead of me.. i will fail. I may not even have perverted thoughts, but a mere move of her hair could disrupt my attention :) let alone a perfume she'd be wearing, and we know how pretty you women will smell -- especially among a bunch of men few of who will remember to take a shower that day or put on some deodorant. I have said in my earlier post that we, men, should control ourselves, but I still have to admit it may be though.. or maybe I am exagerrating.

From the perspective of a woman in mosque, If you are sitting behind men, you get of course to take a peek at some men, sitting, coming in or leaving.. do you feel that disrupts you? may be it doesn't... may be we men are exagerrating the effect of staring at a woman if she is close to us in prayer?

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1:16 pm    March 28, 2005
Muslima
12
11
Bism Illah Al Rahman Al Raheem
I gotta say...I traveled the world over...I even lived in New York for about 5 years....but this blew my socks off....

I used to fight for gender equality because that's what I thought was "fair"...years later and after meditating on the matter I've decided that I don't believe in equality between 2 different people let alone the sexes but I do believe in "equilibrium". There is a balance...it may not be equal at times...but it is "fair" ....otherwise the scales will tilt and there will not be equilibrium.

I believe in questioning and thinking and analyzing....the reasons.... for which things were stated in our Sunnah. But questioning the Sunnah itself to this extreme saddens me and scares me.

As for the comment made about prayer without the hijab. "If she doesn't wear the hijab ouside of prayer then why should she wear within the prayer"
The hijab is a "faridah" and not a "sunnah" therefore it is mandatory as part of the everyday life of a Muslim woman. Prayer is our standard for selecting our attire. Realistically, there are many Muslim women who do not wear hijab......that is their choice. But are they willing to perform abolution, stand between the hands of Allah, and submit themselves in the sacred act of prayer while refusing to conform to the attire that Allah himself has set for them?

Or is the entire Sunnah to be questioned now in the name of equality?

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12:37 pm    March 28, 2005

Adnane Ben. message
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10
For 1, Why don't you make the effort of controlling yourself against looking at a woman as a physical object... ? What you just said is certainly not a convincng reason to prevent women from giving speeches. Have you ever had a female teacher, professor? wouldn't you be more concerned about absorbing the course material she is conveying in class than focusing on her body?

As for 2. As a couple of posts down below brought the point, can we find in the Quran or Sunnah a clear prohiibition of woman-led prayer and mosque speech for a mixed audience of men and women. If the scholars can pinpoint this clearly and convincingly then the case is closed, if they can't, then an Ijtihad has to be carried.. and even then if these women and men don't feel convinced I assume they are free to create their own Ijtihad and have their own mini Madhab, following or sect. It's between them and God.

I aree with Rasta, that these events are positive in a sense they put to test the reasoning of scholars and the wisdom of Islam. It may happen that a new sect is being formed, sort of a feminist Muslim sect. Let it be then, and if it's not meant to work, its faults will surface with time. If the scholars are convinced they should be able to correct this movement convincingly and wisely, without offending anybody. All they can be are messengers. No regular guy or lady opposed to this movement should utter bad names, declare these people Kouffar or bad Muslims.

Also, even for the women who prayed without Hijjab, although it can be visually shocking to many, but that is not a major concern as far as I am concerned. If they don't wear the veil outside of prayer why would they feel the need to wear the veil during prayer.

Again, if it is proven that Quran or Sunna Prohibits woman-led prayer before men and women, then as far as I am concerned this movement should repent. Otherwise, this is a test of pure Ijtihad - nothing more nothing less.

What worries me is that Amina Wadud brings a more dangerous point. She puts to question the very Sunna. She says that we should question Sunna. More, she says we should read Quran with a different eye than all the eyes that have read and attempted to explain it. She puts to question the 3an3ana of Strong Ahadiths narrated by Bukhari, Muslim. She questions the validity of Abou Hurayra ahadith. In general she is instigating Shaq, doubt, in people's minds. She could be so convinced.. that is why the other side should have strong counter-arguments and objections, if this is ever going to settle.

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11:38 am    March 28, 2005
dima maghrebi
10
1- if a woman is my " Imam", my mind will go out while i'm seeing at her body, and i will Not take care for what's she read ( Quran ) ..

2- about the photo above: those who pray.. they pray to who? to Allah? that means they love him, and what i know that the lover always like to do his/her lover's orders ... if they love Allah , Prophet, Islam , then they must follow the Islamic rules.

3- the women as Si Ayur said : are NOT obligated to pray in the mosque, and we remember hadith " Salatu almar2ati fi baytiha khayrun laha " aw kama 9ala sall'Allahu 3alaihi wassalam. it's better for her to pray in her house.

4- Allah yehdina ... Ameeeeen

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11:12 am    March 28, 2005
Anis
9
This might help better understand this subject...

http://www.islamonline.net/fatwaapplication/english/display.asp?hFatwaID=122868

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10:12 am    March 28, 2005
Anis
8
There should have been another question "Does Islam tolerate women to lead Muslims prayers?" The answer is simply NO; there is no need to discuss such an issue because it is a principle that cannot be changed. Islam is in one of its weakest periods and the media just focuses on the slightest piece of news that is negative about Islam. In addition it is these kind of actions that infuriate Islam among other religions and encourage terrorist activities just like what happened in the Theo van Gogh case which had ended with a tragedy. May Allah show her/them and keep us on the right path.
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7:26 am    March 28, 2005

Rasta Gnawi message